Condo Committees And Management

[chiangmaibruce]

Does anyone out there know from personal experience of an instance when Committee members have been troubled?

Does anyone know what happened with this guy - a foreigner charged for being on a Committee without a work permit? www.thaivisa.com/forum/Canadian-Condo-Owner-Claims-False-A-t252387.html

[chiangmaibruce]

fair enough, but be assured a work permit is not required as it is not a paid employment role and the condo act specifically states a non-Thai may perform these duties.

Please advise exactly where in the Condo Act it states that ...

[ripley]

Section 37 & 37/1 say committee is appointed by meeting of the joint owners & must be owners themselves, etc, etc. No mention of nationality, just ownership. To me that makes it clear that a committee member can be of any nationality (although it is inaccurate to say "specifically states a non-thai may....").

Don't know what happened to Canadian. Have heard of one or two hassles, but each one a "grudge" attempt & never followed thru on by authorities.

[harrry]

Does anyone out there know from personal experience of an instance when Committee members have been troubled?

Does anyone know what happened with this guy - a foreigner charged for being on a Committee without a work permit? www.thaivisa.com/forum/Canadian-Condo-Owner-Claims-False-A-t252387.html

He was not charged for being on the commitee but for being Juristic Manager. A large difference but I do not know how it turned out.

[ripley]

Our Committee took out insurance to protect themselves against nuisance suits, etc. If anyone is really worried about this work permit issue, I suggest their co-owners (JP) authorize the same for their Committee members.

1.) No insurance company is going to pay out on a case where a person has actually broken the law. So, if such a case were ever brought to court, that would be the "test case" we're all looking for. The insurance company's willingness to pay for the legal fees in such a conflict would be a compelling indicator. The ultimate verdict would constitute the true definition of the law.

2.) An insurance policy is an excellent deterrent to "grudge" or nuisance suits.

Alternatively or even simultaneously, the JP should set by a small sum of money to be used solely for any legal costs which might arise should a Committee member be prosecuted for serving as representative of the JP. Not, I hasten to add, as a Manager or Juristic Person Manager.

I feel confident that the work permit issue is a tempest in a teapot. Just stop & think of all of the condos in which the owners are angry and frustrated. A few of them may organize to vote representatives out of office or otherwise change policies, and many of them hire legal counsel. Don't you think the first thing they'd go for would be "work permits" if it were really a viable option? I've heard of buildings "run by" Thais (families for instance) challenged & compelled to accept foreign members. Do you think they'd bow to that if they had an easy law to prevent it? Yet the rumour/ fear of prosecution continues to circulate.

Representation is vital to a healthy condominium. The JP should take any steps necessary to preserve and protect this right and thus encourage people of good will to participate without hesitation.

Edited December 15, 2010 by ripley

[PattayaParent]

2.) An insurance policy is an excellent deterrent to "grudge" or nuisance suits.

I don't think anyone will be deterred by an insurance policy, especially if they don't know you have one.

[briley]

Reading this thread I wonder why some people get so hung up about procedure, unless it is because things are going against them?

The Juristic Manager, Building manager, staff and committee are all there to carry out the wishes of the owners.If the owners don't like what is happening they can vote them out (or call for the manager/staff to be sacked). It is easy to get a general meeting, just 20% of owners or a majority of the committee. (Forget - can the Juristic person call a meeting on their own?)

The main thing is to have a building that runs reasonably well, at least to the standard the majority of the owners want. Conflict should be avoided as much as possible - not just conflict between owners but within the management 'team'. (That does not mean you can not have disagreement and debate.)

Here I am going to try and tread very carefully. I agree with the Australian (forget whom) who said you can never please everyone, and add that you have to treat everyone differently. I personally find that different nationalities act and react in different ways. That does not mean any nationality is wrong, just different. For example you might think that many (not all) Americans are loud and forthcoming in their declarations, wants and wishes. It is very easy to go along with the loud and vocal people and ignore the quiet (but often equally annoyed) people in a building. Equally it is easy to go along with the comments from those who live in the building and forget that those who live outside the building are equally owners.

Personally I think that anyone involved in the management of a Condo has to keep in mind the following groups as they each have a different need, desire, expectation:

1. Each different nationality - Thai, American, European, Japanese, Korean, Singaporean etc.
   
2. Those who live and work from the building - divided into those who are 'rich' and those who can only just afford their unit and it's fees.
   
3. Those who own a unit as a retirement location, divided into those who stay for 2 weeks a year to those living there all year.
   
4. Those looking to their unit as an investment and want a quick return against those who consider it their home - then the value is, to some extent, immaterial until they sell.
   
5. Those whose units are a rental business, again divided into those who live in the building, those who live nearby and those who live in another country.
   

I have 15 'groups' here and I am sure everyone can add more groups. And I have ignored the tenants. You have to keep them happy as well otherwise they leave and that annoys their landlords.

So each Condo must have a management system that suits them. So long as it works and is not at odds with the law where is the problem? As the Condo Act is sometimes contradictory, often unclear and leaves many areas uncovered so it should be used as a basis on which to build 'your' management system.

And good luck to those who do get involved - you'll need it!

[ripley]

Well said, Briley. I think you've simply stated the goal that most of us aim for.

Having said that, I'd just mention that codifying procedures is important particularly because all of us are so different. Refining regulations, etc. prevents the goals and opinions of a few from dominating and perhaps over-running the rights of the majority.

[briley]

ripley - I take your "codifying procedures" as meaning rules and regulations.

At one extreme lots of rules and regulations take the strain of worrying about your own behaviour out of your hands and puts it onto the rule maker. So as long as you obey the rules you are acting 'socially'.

At the other extreme a lack of rules and regulations puts the responsibility for behaving on the shoulders of the individual. You must decide what behaviour is acceptable in your environment.

Neither extreme works very well. There is a need to have some rules, and then to know when and where to implement them. On the other hand one also needs to enforce non-existent rules (or introduce a rule) at times to ensure harmonious living.

I spend a lot of time looking at rules, regulations and especially laws and find that mostly they are very badly drafted and always raise more questions than they answer.

For that reason I would prefer a light touch regarding rules and encourage people to take responsibility for their own behaviour. Point out when behaviour is unacceptable and take action if it continues and upsets others.

Of course that raises the point, who decides when behaviour is unacceptable! Hopefully, in a Condo, a management team made up of many of my previously listed 'groups' can manage the balancing act most of the time.

[ripley]

In my experience, taking personal responsibility for your own behaviour has absolutely no effect on abuses of power/ authority or downright corruption. Unless, of course, you decide your responsibility is to move to correct the situation. This leads ultimately to instituting regulations which block said abuses and prevent them from occurring again.

I don't find any of the regs discussed here to be limiting, nit-picking or encroaching on people's individuality. Are you saying that you do?

[briley]

Ripley, a lot of different things in very few sentences!

Your last sentence - Not sure we have discussed any specific regulations here.

Your second sentence - I am suggesting that individuals living in a condo should take personal responsibility for their own behaviour, not necessarily those in the management team (although they should as well).

Third sentence - I think it is an individual's responsibility to correct a 'wrong' situation. You see someone being robbed do you just stand by and say it is the police's responsibility to do something, not mine?

What I have met is the attempt to produce 'rules' for every situation, and every time a problem arises want another set of 'rules' rather than trying to use common sense. Producing good rules or regulations is very hard and in a simple yet complex community like a condo it is not necessarily the best way of working with people.

But all this is just my view, and I know I tend to be more easy going than some other people.

[ripley]

You know, Briley, I think we're talking about 2 different things: 1.) Administrative legislation 2.) Legislation for personal behaviour in a communal situation

Obviously you can't legislate for a courteous, cooperative attitude. A condo is wise, tho, to lay down basic ground-rules on courteous, cooperative behaviour (no spitting in the halls; control your pet; refrain from sexual intercourse in the pool and elevators). And, of course these ground-rules are going to vary depending on the population. As you said, people have different values. Not everyone is suited to condo life.

I'm interested primarily in condo administrative matters & law - in finding ways to help condos to run smoothly. Even so, I'll venture an opinion on personal behaviour issues.

There are lots of people who loathe confrontation so much that they continually back down to the drunken psycho-bully at the pool. There are people who are infirm or otherwise disabled. Some people are so afraid of violence that they're incapable of personally intervening to save that guy who is getting robbed. Okay - not an attractive or heroic trait, but they have rights. Other people might jump in to a situation and commit mayhem. And what the hell do you do with the guys that nitpick you to death with their obsessive need to have everyone be exactly alike. The drunken psycho, the over-reactive rescuer, the nitpicker may very well take personal responsibility for their acts, but that doesn't help the other owners one bit. Laws/rules/regulations - within reason - should exist (with effective back-up) to protect everyone's rightful use of communal property. A person shouldn't have to feel that every visit to a communal area opens him up to one-on-one confrontation. I do agree with you that, on matters of personal behaviour, common sense and a light hand applied to rules usually works best.

You did actually mention that some posts on this Topic seem overly concerned with rules. I think that the discussion has been about understanding and complying with Thai law, and about setting up democratic, graft-free condo administrations. Yes, that involves drafting regulations, dealing with existing ones - but by necessity and not overly so. It's the Topic. I don't think an issue of personal interactive behaviour has come up at all. Laws are slippery - you betcha! My opinion is that when your system comes up with flaws, correct 'em. Thai Condo Law is flawed, work within and around it. But keep working on and refining the basic administrative rules if you want to protect your investment and peaceful lifestyle.

[ripley]

DOES ANYBODY KNOW:

For purposes of an Annual Gen. Mtg. (AGM), must a proxy-holder be another co-owner in the bldg? Is it permitted to give your proxy to your lawyer, for instance? I've scanned the Condo Law & can't find anything on this in the relevant Section 47 which says a proxy is prohibited to

1.) Board member or spouse of

2.) Manager or spouse of

3.)Staff or employees of condo

4.) staff or employees of Manager in case where Manager is a corporate.

Am I correct in understanding that it is not forbidden to give your written proxy to somebody not a co-owner?

[ripley]

A committee claims that they are legally entitled to effect budget cuts for services, staff and maintenance while simultaneously spending our hard-earned on projects not authorized in (recent) AGM or otherwise approved by owners. I read the Condo Law to say that a committee may monitor expenses and expenditures according to wishes stated by the owners, particularly in AGM.

It also seems fishy, legally & otherwise, to claim poverty while paying out on extraneous projects, and I'm not sure it's legal any which way.

Comments?

[Delight]

A committee claims that they are legally entitled to effect budget cuts for services, staff and maintenance while simultaneously spending our hard-earned on projects not authorized in (recent) AGM or otherwise approved by owners. I read the Condo Law to say that a committee may monitor expenses and expenditures according to wishes stated by the owners, particularly in AGM.

It also seems fishy, legally & otherwise, to claim poverty while paying out on extraneous projects, and I'm not sure it's legal any which way.

Comments?

If the management fail to collect maintenance monies ,then services may/will have to be scaled down to align with available income.

A sinking fund (possibly funded some years earlier) could finance previously agreed projects.

For certain -sinking funds cannot be used for day to day services

[Delight]

DOES ANYBODY KNOW:

For purposes of an Annual Gen. Mtg. (AGM), must a proxy-holder be another co-owner in the bldg? Is it permitted to give your proxy to your lawyer, for instance? I've scanned the Condo Law & can't find anything on this in the relevant Section 47 which says a proxy is prohibited to

1.) Board member or spouse of

2.) Manager or spouse of

3.)Staff or employees of condo

4.) staff or employees of Manager in case where Manager is a corporate.

Am I correct in understanding that it is not forbidden to give your written proxy to somebody not a co-owner?

You are correct

I chair the committee at the condo where I live.

At the very recent AGM ,my girl fiend Carried 3 proxies.

If she were my wife -then she could not

[Delight]

A committee claims that they are legally entitled to effect budget cuts for services, staff and maintenance while simultaneously spending our hard-earned on projects not authorized in (recent) AGM or otherwise approved by owners. I read the Condo Law to say that a committee may monitor expenses and expenditures according to wishes stated by the owners, particularly in AGM.

It also seems fishy, legally & otherwise, to claim poverty while paying out on extraneous projects, and I'm not sure it's legal any which way.

Comments?

If the management fail to collect maintenance monies ,then services may/will have to be scaled down to align with available income.

A sinking fund (possibly funded some years earlier) could finance previously agreed projects(again some years earlier)

For certain -sinking funds cannot be used for day to day services

[ripley]

Agreed. But does a committee have the authority to make arbitrary and major cutbacks, or, major & arbitrary expenditures without consultation with the owners? Where does the blanket authority of a committee begin and end? At what point are they required to justify and discuss cutbacks and expenditures to the owners before instigating? Again, Thai Condo Law is unclear (to me) on this point. My opinion is that a fair standard is the Baht amount in question.

[Delight]

Agreed. But does a committee have the authority to make arbitrary and major cutbacks, or, major & arbitrary expenditures without consultation with the owners? Where does the blanket authority of a committee begin and end? At what point are they required to justify and discuss cutbacks and expenditures to the owners before instigating? Again, Thai Condo Law is unclear (to me) on this point. My opinion is that a fair standard is the Baht amount in question.

The line of authority is that the Committee control policy. The manager implements policy to satisfy the expectations of the committee. The committe works on behalf of the co-owners.

The manager must within 15 days of every month display financial data -Money in -Money out

This should give you a clue as to what is going on.If that is not happening then you may have a problem. Somebody is covering up.

Do many co-owners have the same grievances?If you have 20% 0f the total vote with you you can convene a co -owners meeting and demand that the committee explain their actions.If they refuse you could go as far as a EGM(But I think you know all this)

Do you sense that co -owner's grievances have morphed into co -owner apathy. If so something is going on.This usually implies that as a protest fees are not paid. The 1st stage of a downward spiral and a reflection of lazy and uninterested committee.

Co-owners typically become committee members so that they can influence policy to ensure that the standards of Condo care are high to protect their investment in their condo unit.

Some ,will have hidden agendas.

If you suspect that this is going on then somebody needs to act.

If you do not then next year will be worse than this.

A friend advised me that a high percentage of condos in BKK are now bankrupt.Nobody cares -everybody just does as they please.

When was your last AGM ? this is the meeting where all is revealed. Cash flow and balance sheets debtors lists.You must be issued with the minutes from that meeting

You are not entitled by law to see committee minutes.

Given that you have to decide next step. You know the options.The condo act makes it possible to remove a committee. But not on a whim. If you get that far the new boys and girls must be prepared to make difficult decisions.

Your committee has to be registered with a 'competent official' -typically the land office -has that happened?If not the committee is illegal. They cannot be removed -they do not legally exist. If this is the case then you need to act.

I think that I indicated in earlier posts that the condo where I live was going down fast. I think that if a condo looses critical mass the maybe it cannot be saved. A professional Management Company will advise you.

If you do not use such a company at present then the attitude in earlier times was' lets do the best for the co -owners by doing the management bit on the cheap.' Great short term. Potential disaster in the long.

(A bit like the nationalization of British Industry many decades ago)

I assume that you have already written to the committee stating the reasons for your discontent. Have you?

[ripley]

Thanks for a good and practical post. I agree especially about getting the best professional management company money can buy. (Of course, getting them to employ such a company is another matter. Hilariously, to engage this expenditure, the committee would undoubtedly do a reversal and claim they now need Owner approval (and more cash!).

As you imply, I think the situation calls for a careful dissection of audits and budget reports for the previous year as well as this one. At least therein lie undeniable facts to be getting on with.

To answer your question: My first action was to contact the committee (for their eyes only) outlining my questions, concerns and objections. Their reaction was angry and not informative. Final word was: "We're the Committee and can do what we want. Butt out." So, Number One in the "Condo Procedural Etiquette Book" proved useless in this case!

"Do you sense that co -owner's grievances have morphed into co -owner apathy. If so something is going on.This usually implies that as a protest fees are not paid. The 1st stage of a downward spiral and a reflection of lazy and uninterested committee."

Not sure I get the connection. Can you elaborate?

"You are not entitled by law to see committee minutes"

I can find nothing in law denying or supporting the right of co-owners to view committee minutes.

[Delight]

Thanks for a good and practical post. I agree especially about getting the best professional management company money can buy. (Of course, getting them to employ such a company is another matter. Hilariously, to engage this expenditure, the committee would undoubtedly do a reversal and claim they now need Owner approval (and more cash!).

As you imply, I think the situation calls for a careful dissection of audits and budget reports for the previous year as well as this one. At least therein lie undeniable facts to be getting on with.

To answer your question: My first action was to contact the committee (for their eyes only) outlining my questions, concerns and objections. Their reaction was angry and not informative. Final word was: "We're the Committee and can do what we want. Butt out." So, Number One in the "Condo Procedural Etiquette Book" proved useless in this case!

"Do you sense that co -owner's grievances have morphed into co -owner apathy. If so something is going on.This usually implies that as a protest fees are not paid. The 1st stage of a downward spiral and a reflection of lazy and uninterested committee."

Not sure I get the connection. Can you elaborate?

"You are not entitled by law to see committee minutes"

I can find nothing in law denying or supporting the right of co-owners to view committee minutes.

To answer your question: My first action was to contact the committee (for their eyes only) outlining my questions, concerns and objections. Their reaction was angry and not informative. Final word was: "We're the Committee and can do what we want. Butt out." So, Number One in the "Condo Procedural Etiquette Book" proved useless in this case!

If this is as you say -you requested info in writing .Given that you have used the pronoun 'we' as in 'we the committee' I assume that their 'official response' was in writing.

Given that, the committee have lost sight of their prime task -to take care of the co-owners 'needs' and do their utmost to take care of co -owners 'wants'.

When a management is in the early stages of decline they will typically claim to give you 'Maximum Support'. Which is practice is usually -just short of any real help.It sounds like your lot are further down the road to nowhere.

In my view the Condo Act is not perfect-but it is fit for purpose.

No legislation can compensate for bad management. Pattaya (home for me)is stuffed with farang who have high egos-low intellects and non existant management skills. That in itself is not a problem. The problem is they fail to recognize their limitations.

If you seriously want change then you will not achieve this working alone.

You will need to persuade co -owners who have management experience to work with you. I am not talking about Chairman of Boards-Just guys who have either run their own businesses(successfully) or have held typically middle management positions in their past lives I am not dismissing all potential candidates who cannot demonstrate a exemplary C.V. There are many good people who are 'ideas men/women' and can make a significant contribution. Typically they will also be good listeners.

This selection process by you,whilst will never be perfect,is critical for the future success of your home.

"Do you sense that co -owner's grievances have morphed into co -owner apathy. If so something is going on.This usually implies that as a protest fees are not paid. The 1st stage of a downward spiral and a reflection of lazy and uninterested committee."

Not sure I get the connection. Can you elaborate?

A rule of life is 'Love Thyself 'and 'Love thy neighbor-However when the pressure is on people will 'Love Thyself- more'. This is just a symptom of a cause that I have just outlined. The co -owners who do not pay as a protest -against a badly run condo,are loathed not to pay. They have simply shifted into self protection mode.They have plenty of justification. 'He doesn't pay why should I?'The only solution is leadership. At the stage you are at -this is more important than team work.

"You are not entitled by law to see committee minutes"

I can find nothing in law denying or supporting the right of co-owners to view committee minutes.

Consider a commercial company with shareholders. These share holders are entitled to AGM minutes -but never Baord Meeting minutes. It is the same with Committee. That part of the Act -Responsibilities of a Committee' paragraph 4 sates 'other duties as prescribed under Ministerial legislation'. I deduce that that specifies that AGM minutes must be issued.That is the case at my Pattaya home.

Note ; I am operating on 2 parallel universes. I am also contributing to another post 'Minutes of Meeting ' .This post was started by VIBE. Everything I have to say is featured on that post . Perhaps you could refer to it.

I wish you all success with this project.