Thai Troops Retreat In Face Of 80,000 Protesters

[way2muchcoffee]

I have to say that I think that the government has handled this situation very well. Backing off from the temples and other areas was exactly the correct strategy. If they had refused to budge, they would have ended up fighting for the sake of fighting. Now, they are not retreating from the Govt. buildings and the army base, showing that their earlier retreat was based on wisdom, not fear.

I didn't really have a very high opinion of Aphiset & Sutep before this, but I really do think that they are doing a good job at controlling the situation while not starting any violence. I just hope that they can continue to do so.

My wife asked some Red friends why they liked Thaksin. They said that loans were easily available when he was PM. They also liked his debt forgiveness policies. Need I say more?

Yes. I agree. But if the grenades keep flying and more people are injured the gloves will come off eventually. Even if the redshirts or any of their various factions or splinter groups are not behind the bombings, their presence here is very dangerous. What would happen if the next grenade lands in the middle of a group of protesters? What happens if the next grenade hits the stage killing one of the red leaders? What happens if the next grenade kills a highly placed person in the military or government? Things could go pear-shaped very very quickly.

Edited March 28, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[moskito]

if one talks with a Thai, he will learn that NOBODY IS INTRESTED ANYMORE in red, yellow or whatever rally.

There will be absolutely no outcome of the red demonstrations except they turn bloody which we all hope they dont.

The only ppl still intrested is the Massmedia and some forums .....there are a lot of other news in Thailand and Asia....it becomes boring these constantly yellow press HEADLINEs

have a great day in Thailand and enjoy the weather...if you have rain, send some to Phuket

[rametindallas]

Hooray for the reds! At last some hope for the poor people in Thailand.

That is is an interesting viewpoint. Perhaps you should read this:

http://report.globalintegrity.org/Thailand/2007/notebook

Yep, Thaksin and his cronies really had the interests of the poor farmers in mind.. - if it wasn't so sad

Taksin apologists are just 'bomb throwers'. They aren't affected by the facts.

Love your facts BTW

[grandpops]

the PM should be allowed to meet with the protest leaders

they should be arrested and immediately airlifted out by helicopter to a remote Navy controlled island

the protesters should be told where they are being held and invite them to organise a rescue bid

To those to young or to foreign to remember Jackanory was a lovely story telling program on childrens TV in the 60'2 ans 70's. Nice to see it making a comeback on TV again!!!

Anyway, I am enjoying Anupong's squirming. He is soon going to have to come back and save us again!!!!

Most (outside Jackanory land) are contrasting the army stance against the reds with the (non)stance against the PAD. Lovely to see it acted out in front of us so clearly.

So clearly in fact that I have not had to post for a number of months now and have just sat back and watched the debate

[rametindallas]

Hooray for the reds! At last some hope for the poor people in Thailand.

That is is an interesting viewpoint. Perhaps you should read this:

http://report.globalintegrity.org/Thailand/2007/notebook

Yep, Thaksin and his cronies really had the interests of the poor farmers in mind.. - if it wasn't so sad

I knew it was bad under toxin, but that's OTT!

I guess if you're a broke farmer, and someone offers you some money to wear a red shirt, and go to Bangkok to participate in a protest, you'll take the money, even if it's to support the man responsible for your present condition.

Am I wrong believing Chidchob is in the present government coalition?

Newin was cleared by the same 'so-called anti-Taksin courts' that convicted Mr. and Mrs. T

[lannarebirth]

lannarebirth

i sought thairath but could not find jatupon's comment....

could u be more specific.... thx

Anyone have a translation of the Jakropob Penkair speech reported about in todays Thai Rath? From what I can gather he says Abhisit is legitimate and the Red people suffer from their leaders, of whom he had little good to say.

I never saw it and my wife was describing it to me. As she does so often I think she did some literary embellishment. If this is the article, it seems both general and benign:

http://www.thairath.co.th/content/pol/72092

[rametindallas]

The yellow shirts could muster in their best days never more than 20,000 people, if nobody likes to lose face, it is easy to make a deal in which elections are hold let's say in six months time. At least Abhisit will have the chance to show he is legitimate. The fact that (certain) Bangkok people are starting to feeling the pinch is only a good sign. The protestors are on the street to cause inconvenience. If there was no pressure or inconvenience each and every demonstration was useless.

The way I look at things, the ability to put a lot of warm bodies on the street is related to having a large population of idle "n'er do wells" available, who have nothing better to do than complain. When I look at a long caravan of Red Shirts, what I see is a population of folks who are not usefully employed in any productive enterprise to feed their families (unless you accept that they are all being paid a salary to appear, in which case they are simply actors) - and all I can think is: "Do I really want such idle, unemployed people to be selecting the next government of Thailand?"

The argument between the Thai elites and the lower economic strata of Thailand is the same argument being played out all over the world:

One side says - The pie is divided unequally, and my team feels that our slice of pie is too small - so we want your side to accept smaller slices - and shift the distribution of the existing pie so that we get larger slices. We deserve more pie!

The other side says: Just listen to us, and let us run things, and we will make the pie MUCH bigger - so that everyone gets more pie, even without changing the angles of the slices.

In a nation with an ever-growing population, the first approach will never work out in the long run. If you just want to redistribute existing wealth, everyone will eventually become poor.

What the first group wants is both benefits: You give us some of your pie now, while at the same time, you go off and do your thing to make the pie bigger for everyone - while we sit here eating pie in the shade.

The second group says: Uh, sorry, but - that's not how things work. If we are going to put our blood and sweat into the very hard work of making EVERYONE's pie bigger, we want to reap big rewards - not watch the fruits of our labor flow to less industrious people.

In one form or another, this battle is playing out all over the world.

I have not been everywhere in Thailand, and there may be localities that have seriously declined since I first visited Thailand in 1995. But - everywhere that I have been - including remote rural parts of Thailand - things have gotten significantly better, across the spectrum. Better roads, better clinics, more reliable electricity and clean water, better roads, better schools, better telecommunications and transportation, etc. Some of the improvement was before Thaksin, some was during his tenure, and some occurred after Thaksin's departure. But - the trend has always been upwards. Every Thai's slice of pie has gotten bigger - but - if you listen to the Red Shirts, you would think that their villages have been raped and pillaged since 2006, and everything is going downhill rapidly. Well - to my own eyes - this is simply fabrication.

I have seen absolutely NOTHING that even remotely suggests to me in any way that the Red Shirt leadership has any ideas about ways to make the pie bigger. A rising tide lifts all boats - but they have no brilliant thoughts about how to bring on a rising tide. They just want to pursue the "Robin Hood scenario": Take from the rich and give to the poor. Well, Robin Hood may have been popular among the peasants - but I'm not so sure he would have made a great Monarch, or great Prime Minister.

Superficial populism can be seductive to the weaker-minded parts of the electorate (a great example being the travesty that put the current US administration into power), but it usually damages the long-term prospects of success for the nation.

The Red Shirts are all worked up about the illegitimacy of the Abhisit government - and also about the unjust distribution of wealth and power throughout Thailand. But - I never hear them talk about substantive policies and improvements that they would make. They are focused on superficial issues - but do not appear to have any transformational proposals for how to run the country. As far as I can tell, they want to pursue the exact same agenda as the current government - they just want their favorite sons to be sitting in the big chairs. That does not seem like a very compelling argument in favor of immediately unseating the current government.

Amen to that

[SanSaiExPat]

Probably want to avoid provoking these types of people, giving them an excuse and justifying violence. Good on them.

"these types of people"? What type of people would that be? People who believe in a democratically elected government not one imposed on them my a military coup? Live free or Die. I love my country but I fear my government.

The reds believe in a Thaksin led government, no matter what it takes to get that power. Nothing to do with democracy.

"The reds believe in a Thaksin led government, no matter what it takes to get that power. Nothing to do with democracy."

Excuse me. Who took power by force? The military and by extension the current government or TRT? If I steal your cow at gunpoint and you attempt to take it back who's the wronged party?

[landofthefree]

I will arrive Bangkok on 3/April.

Do you think that will be safe to stay 2/3 days in Bangkok?

I want to walk arround the Grand Palace and surrounding areas!

Or do you think that i should go to Phuket, Krabi, etc, right after i arrive Bangkok?

thanks in advance

Daniel

from Portugal

Bangkok is fine for tourists

With the parades *protests" Bangkok is very quiet

No traffic jams ... markets are empty ...

Don;t change your plans ... enjoy Amazing Bangkok

Do you all think that i should keep with my reservation at Navalai River Resort? That area it´s ok?

Edited March 28, 2010 by landofthefree

[landofthefree]

I will arrive Bangkok on 3/April.

Do you think that will be safe to stay 2/3 days in Bangkok?

I want to walk arround the Grand Palace and surrounding areas!

Or do you think that i should go to Phuket, Krabi, etc, right after i arrive Bangkok?

thanks in advance

Daniel

from Portugal

Bangkok is fine for tourists

With the parades *protests" Bangkok is very quiet

No traffic jams ... markets are empty ...

Don;t change your plans ... enjoy Amazing Bangkok

Do you all think that i should keep with my reservation at Navalai River Resort? That area it´s ok?

If you look at the post above (my first time trying to upload pictures with TV so sorry about the duplications) you will see some pictures from the site of the red shirts protests. We went on a trip last Sunday to Saphan Taxin and then by boat to the Grand Palace, then to Kowsan Road for lunch followed by a walk through Sunan Luang. The protesters were mostly cooking food massaging each other sleeping etc. They were very friendly and happy to be photographed. I don't think you have anything to worry about.

Edited March 28, 2010 by landofthefree

[lannarebirth]

The way I look at things, the ability to put a lot of warm bodies on the street is related to having a large population of idle "n'er do wells" available, who have nothing better to do than complain. When I look at a long caravan of Red Shirts, what I see is a population of folks who are not usefully employed in any productive enterprise to feed their families (unless you accept that they are all being paid a salary to appear, in which case they are simply actors) - and all I can think is: "Do I really want such idle, unemployed people to be selecting the next government of Thailand?"

The argument between the Thai elites and the lower economic strata of Thailand is the same argument being played out all over the world:

One side says - The pie is divided unequally, and my team feels that our slice of pie is too small - so we want your side to accept smaller slices - and shift the distribution of the existing pie so that we get larger slices. We deserve more pie!

The other side says: Just listen to us, and let us run things, and we will make the pie MUCH bigger - so that everyone gets more pie, even without changing the angles of the slices.

In a nation with an ever-growing population, the first approach will never work out in the long run. If you just want to redistribute existing wealth, everyone will eventually become poor.

What the first group wants is both benefits: You give us some of your pie now, while at the same time, you go off and do your thing to make the pie bigger for everyone - while we sit here eating pie in the shade.

The second group says: Uh, sorry, but - that's not how things work. If we are going to put our blood and sweat into the very hard work of making EVERYONE's pie bigger, we want to reap big rewards - not watch the fruits of our labor flow to less industrious people.

In one form or another, this battle is playing out all over the world.

I have not been everywhere in Thailand, and there may be localities that have seriously declined since I first visited Thailand in 1995. But - everywhere that I have been - including remote rural parts of Thailand - things have gotten significantly better, across the spectrum. Better roads, better clinics, more reliable electricity and clean water, better roads, better schools, better telecommunications and transportation, etc. Some of the improvement was before Thaksin, some was during his tenure, and some occurred after Thaksin's departure. But - the trend has always been upwards. Every Thai's slice of pie has gotten bigger - but - if you listen to the Red Shirts, you would think that their villages have been raped and pillaged since 2006, and everything is going downhill rapidly. Well - to my own eyes - this is simply fabrication.

I have seen absolutely NOTHING that even remotely suggests to me in any way that the Red Shirt leadership has any ideas about ways to make the pie bigger. A rising tide lifts all boats - but they have no brilliant thoughts about how to bring on a rising tide. They just want to pursue the "Robin Hood scenario": Take from the rich and give to the poor. Well, Robin Hood may have been popular among the peasants - but I'm not so sure he would have made a great Monarch, or great Prime Minister.

Superficial populism can be seductive to the weaker-minded parts of the electorate (a great example being the travesty that put the current US administration into power), but it usually damages the long-term prospects of success for the nation.

The Red Shirts are all worked up about the illegitimacy of the Abhisit government - and also about the unjust distribution of wealth and power throughout Thailand. But - I never hear them talk about substantive policies and improvements that they would make. They are focused on superficial issues - but do not appear to have any transformational proposals for how to run the country. As far as I can tell, they want to pursue the exact same agenda as the current government - they just want their favorite sons to be sitting in the big chairs. That does not seem like a very compelling argument in favor of immediately unseating the current government.

Very good post and I have nothing to add, but it did remind me of a funny Bush quote:

"We ought to make the pie higher."

George W Bush

[anotherpeter]

"The reds believe in a Thaksin led government, no matter what it takes to get that power. Nothing to do with democracy."

Excuse me. Who took power by force? The military and by extension the current government or TRT? If I steal your cow at gunpoint and you attempt to take it back who's the wronged party?

"The military and by extension the current government"

Does that mean the PPP government also?

And ... who was the elected PM when the coup occurred? No one. Parliament had been dissolved by Thaksin. New elections in 2006, and no result.

[way2muchcoffee]

"The reds believe in a Thaksin led government, no matter what it takes to get that power. Nothing to do with democracy."

Excuse me. Who took power by force? The military and by extension the current government or TRT? If I steal your cow at gunpoint and you attempt to take it back who's the wronged party?

Excuse me. If I steal your house and put up tall gates with barbed wire around it, would you not look to the guys with guns to help get it back?

Edited March 28, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[kraxlhuber]

80,000

No expert here but it looks far more than that.

Given that they were spread in several locations, it definitely wouldn't look anything like 80,000.

to sum up the protesters,in another country they would be branded terrorists.No one can tell me they are the Poor northern/northeastern farmers, they are sharecroppers and will do whatever for their paymaster.

The motorcycle taxi and metered taxi gangs are at work.

Beware "oh reads" of the wrath of the silent mayority,they could be in for a surprise.

[mca]

to sum up the protesters,in another country they would be branded terrorists

Or possibly " People exercising their democratic right to protest"

[peacefulwarrior]

I'm pleased there is no violence. I hope they get their way and get an election. Abhisit isn't a bad man, he just isn't elected.

He was elected by the Members Of Parliament with full quorum, and all duly elected in 2007.

All the oppositions attempts at votes of no confidence have failed miserably.

By the laws of the land, and all logic, he is a 'Properly Elected Prime Minister of Thailand'.

And he is not a bad man, which is a rarity in this seat it seams.

But still his party took 236mil Baht from 'a petrochemical company', which is clearly over the allowance of 30mil. For this alone his party would have to be 'duly' dissolved. It is this little Oxford-Chinese elite that is pissing off the people and I can totally comprehend them. This here is little Britain with the nobs owning everything and the peasants are cattle and serfs. And it's the same in many places... And just not to finish to quick here. Thaksin is all the same a bum, since he ripped off the state by manifold which 'he has given to the poor'. His media campaign has worked out though and people still see him as rescuer of the oppressed. His gang is also not interested in the welfare of the state, their ALL gangsters. Two party system or the left-right paradigm is a farce in many countries to get the people to fight each other rather than seeing the puppet masters aka banks, industrials and military complex.

[Who, me ?]

to sum up the protesters,in another country they would be branded terrorists

Or possibly " People exercising their democratic right to protest"

This right does not include threats !

[mca]

All 80000 of them?

[SanSaiExPat]

The way I look at things, the ability to put a lot of warm bodies on the street is related to having a large population of idle "n'er do wells" available, who have nothing better to do than complain. When I look at a long caravan of Red Shirts, what I see is a population of folks who are not usefully employed in any productive enterprise to feed their families (unless you accept that they are all being paid a salary to appear, in which case they are simply actors) - and all I can think is: "Do I really want such idle, unemployed people to be selecting the next government of Thailand?"

The argument between the Thai elites and the lower economic strata of Thailand is the same argument being played out all over the world:

One side says - The pie is divided unequally, and my team feels that our slice of pie is too small - so we want your side to accept smaller slices - and shift the distribution of the existing pie so that we get larger slices. We deserve more pie!

The other side says: Just listen to us, and let us run things, and we will make the pie MUCH bigger - so that everyone gets more pie, even without changing the angles of the slices.

In a nation with an ever-growing population, the first approach will never work out in the long run. If you just want to redistribute existing wealth, everyone will eventually become poor.

What the first group wants is both benefits: You give us some of your pie now, while at the same time, you go off and do your thing to make the pie bigger for everyone - while we sit here eating pie in the shade.

The second group says: Uh, sorry, but - that's not how things work. If we are going to put our blood and sweat into the very hard work of making EVERYONE's pie bigger, we want to reap big rewards - not watch the fruits of our labor flow to less industrious people.

In one form or another, this battle is playing out all over the world.

I have not been everywhere in Thailand, and there may be localities that have seriously declined since I first visited Thailand in 1995. But - everywhere that I have been - including remote rural parts of Thailand - things have gotten significantly better, across the spectrum. Better roads, better clinics, more reliable electricity and clean water, better roads, better schools, better telecommunications and transportation, etc. Some of the improvement was before Thaksin, some was during his tenure, and some occurred after Thaksin's departure. But - the trend has always been upwards. Every Thai's slice of pie has gotten bigger - but - if you listen to the Red Shirts, you would think that their villages have been raped and pillaged since 2006, and everything is going downhill rapidly. Well - to my own eyes - this is simply fabrication.

I have seen absolutely NOTHING that even remotely suggests to me in any way that the Red Shirt leadership has any ideas about ways to make the pie bigger. A rising tide lifts all boats - but they have no brilliant thoughts about how to bring on a rising tide. They just want to pursue the "Robin Hood scenario": Take from the rich and give to the poor. Well, Robin Hood may have been popular among the peasants - but I'm not so sure he would have made a great Monarch, or great Prime Minister.

Superficial populism can be seductive to the weaker-minded parts of the electorate (a great example being the travesty that put the current US administration into power), but it usually damages the long-term prospects of success for the nation.

The Red Shirts are all worked up about the illegitimacy of the Abhisit government - and also about the unjust distribution of wealth and power throughout Thailand. But - I never hear them talk about substantive policies and improvements that they would make. They are focused on superficial issues - but do not appear to have any transformational proposals for how to run the country. As far as I can tell, they want to pursue the exact same agenda as the current government - they just want their favorite sons to be sitting in the big chairs. That does not seem like a very compelling argument in favor of immediately unseating the current government.

Very good post and I have nothing to add, but it did remind me of a funny Bush quote:

"We ought to make the pie higher."

George W Bush

The previous poster makes some excellent points. Regarding your funny Bush quote I'll add my funny Clinton quote.

"If the personal freedoms guaranteed by the Constitution inhibit the government's ability to govern the people, we should look to limit those guarantees." - Bill Clinton in an August 12, 1993 speech Seems like Democrats the world over read from the same book. LOL

[kraxlhuber]

I never hear or see a comment,positive or negative, from any other Asean country.

The policy of Not interferring in other ,s internal affairs leads to a confrontation as we experience it now in Thailand.

In Singapore all the protesters (if there is ever any large-scale streetprotest) would have landed in Changi Prison and detained untill 2525.also in Malaysia under the ISO act.

You only can stop all that protests if you share the wealth.

In Germany it took 150 yearsand a lot of negotiating with the unions until some of the wealth finally trickled down to the Volk.

If Thailand had recognised Unions then there would be official negotiation,not Ragtag streetvendors,idlers, hippies,would be rambos, roaming the streets and demanding to dissolve the House.

"99 % of the reds think dissolving the House is setting the groundfloor of a house undere water" maybe, I am a bit sarcastic but not too far off target.

Poor mislled volk,are forcefed with some real "Red " idealogy and dont know better.

[mca]

In Singapore all the protesters (if there is ever any large-scale streetprotest) would have landed in Changi Prison and detained untill 2525.

Are you saying that's a good thing?

[bangkokrick]

All 80000 of them?

If that figure is correct and I doubt that it is. It is still a piss in the ocean compared to the population of Thailand. This is a minority group and should not be given the credibility that it seems to be getting.

Cheers, Rick

[mca]

Apologies Rick but 80000, 800, 80 or 8 your reply actually has nothing to do with the reason I posted that figure.

[rreddin]

I'm pleased there is no violence. I hope they get their way and get an election. Abhisit isn't a bad man, he just isn't elected.

I'm glad I can agree with you. Suthep, on the other hand...

Abhisit's real problem is that the Army (Anupong) overstepped it's legitimate role in bringing down two governments and then bringing about the coalition that brought the Democrats to lead the government. Yes, yes, the current government is legal, according to the constitution, but it lacks legitimacy. The courts disbanded two political parties, but didn't persuade their followers that the decisions were just. The law is not the same as justice, and many people regard the constitutional provision requiring the dissolution of parties when one or more of their executives is convicted of certain misbehavior is seen by some as too far removed from justice. The way the junta forced the constitution through was not seen by everybody as legitimate, either.

Sorry, I'm wandering off topic. I'm glad no provocateur managed to start bloodshed today. At least not yet. I don't want to see a repeat of May 1992.

Thank you. This is the most sensible post I have seen on this subject for a long time. You sum up the complaints of the ordinary Thai people against the Abhisit government, military and judiciary very well. Abhisit may have been legally elected, but he is smart enough to know that his government has no legitimacy and that is why it is weak.

[djayz]

I will arrive Bangkok on 3/April.

Do you think that will be safe to stay 2/3 days in Bangkok?

I want to walk arround the Grand Palace and surrounding areas!

Or do you think that i should go to Phuket, Krabi, etc, right after i arrive Bangkok?

thanks in advance

Daniel

from Portugal

Bangkok is fine for tourists

With the parades *protests" Bangkok is very quiet

No traffic jams ... markets are empty ...

Don;t change your plans ... enjoy Amazing Bangkok

Do you all think that i should keep with my reservation at Navalai River Resort? That area it´s ok?

Relax Daniel, as other members have already pointed out in earlier posts, the protests are not directed at foreigners/tourists. Just avoid large gatherings of people wearing red t-shirts (and don't wear red or yellow t-shirts yourself) and everything should be fine. I was up in BKK last weekend and I saw one (1) single guy wearing a red t-shirt! Just use common sense and everything should be ok. Enjoy your time in Thailand.

[bangkokrick]

Apologies Rick but 80000, 800, 80 or 8 your reply actually has nothing to do with the reason I posted that figure.

Still the numbers are pretty pathetic why ever you posted the figure. It's still a far cry from the original plan of 1 million people, which by the way is still a very small percentage of the population.

Cheers, Rick

[mca]

Rick. You've missed my meaning by a country mile. It's not about the numbers. I couldn't care less if there were 1 million of them or just Granny Somjai from Loei and her dog. One poster labeled the reds as "terrorists" I replied that possibly they were "people exercising their democratic right to protest". Another poster said that that right did not include threats where my reply of "All 80000 of them?" was to suggest that it would be a stretch of the imagination to suggest that every single protester were making threats.

[hammered]

The most amazing thing I saw was that since the PAD began protesting 5 years ago this is the first time there has ever been a negotiation assuming it happens

[way2muchcoffee]

Rick. You've missed my meaning by a country mile. It's not about the numbers. I couldn't care less if there were 1 million of them or just Granny Somjai from Loei and her dog. One poster labeled the reds as "terrorists" I replied that possibly they were "people exercising their democratic right to protest". Another poster said that that right did not include threats where my reply of "All 80000 of them?" was to suggest that it would be a stretch of the imagination to suggest that every single protester were making threats.

But isn't it enough that the leaders are all making threats, particularly Arisman and Jatuporn? Their threats are most definitely within the realm of terrorism. It wouldn't be too big a stretch to presume that the leaders speak for their followers.

Edited March 28, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[bangkokrick]

Rick. You've missed my meaning by a country mile. It's not about the numbers. I couldn't care less if there were 1 million of them or just Granny Somjai from Loei and her dog. One poster labeled the reds as "terrorists" I replied that possibly they were "people exercising their democratic right to protest". Another poster said that that right did not include threats where my reply of "All 80000 of them?" was to suggest that it would be a stretch of the imagination to suggest that every single protester were making threats.

I understood why you quoted the figure and they certainly are not terrorists and they should have a right to march. With that said its still a poor turnout.

Within that 80000 there will sadly be some who are out to make mischief.

Cheers, Rick