Some Attitudes Towards Red Shirts Shameful

[KireB]

Just a thought, if you were in your homeland and you were told you can not vote anymore despite it still being a democracy (because some fool says you are not educated enough) would you sit back and accept it?

Short memory span you have! The Thais were offered, by their PM, to have early elections.

the talk was for dissolving parliament in 9 months, why not dissolve now? If you are going to dissolve lets get on with it before any further charter amendments are made. Also no doubt they would backpedal on the 9 months, say anything to end the current protest.

That's a completely different issue. If PT hs the upper hand in the charter amendments, they'll try to pave the roads for Thaksins return. Samak tried it and during the Somchai administration the same. And as resut, we'll probably see the Yellows back on the streets. Vicious cycle or Perpetuum Mobilum?

[Thanh-BKK]

Hi.

Still watching television, boyfriend's sister still stuck in traffic somewhere downtown.

Live television showed several motorbikes and one car heavily damaged by red shirt "protesters" at or near Rajprasong intersection. Just how "peaceful" is that?

Also on television - all businesses in that area closed now - i.e. Gaysorn, Central World, Siam Center, Siam Discovery, Paragon. The number of employees in these stores who are out of work and income now is probably larger than the number of reds forcing the closure.

Oh wait, they are not actually forcing it. Indeed they try to force the stores to open up again so they (the protesters) can use the toilets! Hey reds - i have news for you: Go home, there's a toilet there waiting for you!

Ping-pong bombs thrown? I've had several of those things go off in my backyard here when two rival group of students decided to attack each other in my soi last year. Honestly - i've bought and used larger firecrackers last new year's.

@Tonywebster

Why not dissolve now? Well, maybe because the other 59,900,000 Thai people do NOT want a dissolution? Is 100,000 people wearing the same colour of shirt all it takes to decide the politics for an entire nation? Yeah, the "red" kind of democracy where a VERY SMALL minority rules - with mobs and threats of violence. Wait - isn't that exactly what they claim to be against? But then - they contradict themselves so often that they probably don't even bother checking what they talk about before talking. After all the Montenegrin in Dubai who is Cambodia's economic advisor will know what's good for his pocket, ahem pardon, Thailand.

Best regards.....

Thanh

[Thanh-BKK]

Oh by the way....

A news report that Bangna intersection is about to be closed by the reds is false. No red shirt in sight, intersection is free (relatively spoken - the usual traffic).

Thanh

[shawndoc]

I say congrats to the government keeping things as peaceful as they have. In the United States this would have been broken up by tear gas and riot police once they started taking over bridges without permission or marching to disrupt traffic without the proper permits. Not to mention with all the threats leveled there would be a bunch of people in jail.

[WAERTH]

I say congrats to the government keeping things as peaceful as they have. In the United States this would have been broken up by tear gas and riot police once they started taking over bridges without permission or marching to disrupt traffic without the proper permits. Not to mention with all the threats leveled there would be a bunch of people in jail.

That is what I have been saying all along. And some people are claiming Thailand is a dictatorship .... which dictatorship would be so tolerant?

W

[Netfan]

the selfish comments in here are staggering.

Boo Hoo someone can not go shopping at central world today or boo hoo someones staff can not work today. see the bigger picture, these people are doing what they need to do to make their voices heard and to secure the future of thailand, yet those of us that can up sticks and move anywhere else in the world easily are moaning because they can not do something today which they can probably go and do tomorrow or in a few days.

This is about the Thais and what is good for them, ALL thais, not just the wealthy or middle classes, The poor are the backbone of Thailand and deserve to have their voices heard.

the people complaining in here are probably the first to scream 'IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT YOU CAN GO HOME' at other posters when they have a gripe about Thailand, well now it is my turn to do the same, if you don't like it you can go home, but be quick before the yellows come out and seize the airports again.

I might open a business for farangs in thailand and sell spines, some of you need them. Thailand is going through changes. Thailand will deal with it the way Thailand sees fit. Let them get on with it and accept the little inconveniences it causes.

ahh, the old double standard, which the reds are supposedly so opposed to. if i was to say "oh, boohoo, so the airport closed down for a few days and some backbackers had to ask mommy and daddy for more money and a few farangs missed their pattaya holiday, but its ok because it was for the better good of the country, the "bigger picture"" - would you agree with the tactic of occupying the airport and the premise of that argument? somehow i don't think so.

[hammered]

I say congrats to the government keeping things as peaceful as they have. In the United States this would have been broken up by tear gas and riot police once they started taking over bridges without permission or marching to disrupt traffic without the proper permits. Not to mention with all the threats leveled there would be a bunch of people in jail.

That is a good point. However, the people in Bangkok wont sit back and let the government do nothign for ever. At some point they will denmand their democratic rights to go about their business are protected. That is when things get difficult for Abhisit. Quite how difficult depends on whether the reds start to be seen as going too far by the majority

[rixalex]

Don't make the mistake of buying propaganda, this is about much more than Thaksin.

The second clause in that sentence completely contradicts the advice you give in the first.

[Thanh-BKK]

Live television showed several motorbikes and one car heavily damaged by red shirt "protesters" at or near Rajprasong intersection. Just how "peaceful" is that?

Hi.

Quoting myself as news emerge - kudos to the reds, this was NOT done by them. The driver of the car (18 year old nutcase) ran his Porsche into some motorbikes that belong to red-shirt protesters, injuring some of them. He was arrested.

And rightly so! While shutting down the whole area is just wrong by the reds, using a car as a weapon against them is even more wrong. Hope that idiot will sit in jail for some time.

Best regards......

Thanh

[Scott]

One comment suggesting killing people has been deleted. Please exercise care in posting extremely negative comments suggesting or advocating violence to others.

[catmac]

Live television showed several motorbikes and one car heavily damaged by red shirt "protesters" at or near Rajprasong intersection. Just how "peaceful" is that?

Hi.

Quoting myself as news emerge - kudos to the reds, this was NOT done by them. The driver of the car (18 year old nutcase) ran his Porsche into some motorbikes that belong to red-shirt protesters, injuring some of them. He was arrested.

And rightly so! While shutting down the whole area is just wrong by the reds, using a car as a weapon against them is even more wrong. Hope that idiot will sit in jail for some time.

Best regards......

Thanh

Thanks for having the decency to admit that you were wrong in blaming the reds for that violence in your first post, you won't be the first to jump in and blame them for any outrage that occurs (remember Sondhi's shooting, and the usual suspects jumping in to blame the reds?)

But seriously, do you really believe that there is the remotest chance of that "18 year old nutcase" ever paying for his crime by going to jail? Do you remember that other nutcase who drove his Benz into the queue at a bus stop? Still free, thanks to daddy's money and clever lawyers manipulating the spirit of the law! The fact that the spoiled children of the rich can kill and maim ordinary people (just so long as they are poor!), and get away with it may explain some of the anger that the reds feel towards the Bangkok elite.

[animatic]

Correct " Too Thick To Vote!" will never be a platform for any party out ther.

On the other have there ARE rulings about the mentally incompetent not voting.

Whether from acident of birth, or later accident, disease and such,

some people are deemed incompetent to vote in elections.

Just the way it is.

I am not sure if basic literacy is a requirement still,

to some extent it is a factor in making an informed choice

that you REALIZE you are making.

Oh, no problem, make you X there, and Mr X thanks you...

but you were pointed at Mr Y...

It is amazing the longevity of ONE statement made ONE night on the PAD stage,

to be dredged up endlessly on TVF as

proof of this or that alleged act of disenfranchisement... that never happened.

Oh but some body said it!!!!!! Wow, discussion of possibilities is not to be allowed,

lest some fanatic say that's your sole intentions

[frodo]

But seriously, do you really believe that there is the remotest chance of that "18 year old nutcase" ever paying for his crime by going to jail? Do you remember that other nutcase who drove his Benz into the queue at a bus stop? Still free, thanks to daddy's money and clever lawyers manipulating the spirit of the law! The fact that the spoiled children of the rich can kill and maim ordinary people (just so long as they are poor!), and get away with it may explain some of the anger that the reds feel towards the Bangkok elite.

I have a feeling the young nutcase is another Kanpitak Pachimsawas (the driver of the Benz).

He may be related to Kitti Thanakitamnuay who is a real estate developer here. When I did a search on the nutcase, the search revealed this could be so.

http://www.atimes.com/se-asia/DC09Ae01.html

Obviously from a rich well-to-do family driving a car like that.

Shameful. I hope he does some time for that as well.

[mazeltov]

Live television showed several motorbikes and one car heavily damaged by red shirt "protesters" at or near Rajprasong intersection. Just how "peaceful" is that?

Hi.

Quoting myself as news emerge - kudos to the reds, this was NOT done by them. The driver of the car (18 year old nutcase) ran his Porsche into some motorbikes that belong to red-shirt protesters, injuring some of them. He was arrested.

And rightly so! While shutting down the whole area is just wrong by the reds, using a car as a weapon against them is even more wrong. Hope that idiot will sit in jail for some time.

Best regards......

Thanh

Thanks for having the decency to admit that you were wrong in blaming the reds for that violence in your first post, you won't be the first to jump in and blame them for any outrage that occurs (remember Sondhi's shooting, and the usual suspects jumping in to blame the reds?)

classic example for the traps of cognitive bias.

lot of people claim that and that is evidently true because they believe they saw it on television.

[rixalex]

Still free, thanks to daddy's money and clever lawyers manipulating the spirit of the law! The fact that the spoiled children of the rich can kill and maim ordinary people (just so long as they are poor!), and get away with it may explain some of the anger that the reds feel towards the Bangkok elite.

If that's what they are genuinely fighting about, how come they are happy to be led by a man from the elite - a man who has used his money and power better than most to manipulate laws for both himself and his spoilt children?

[Thanh-BKK]

Hi.

Well it is made easy to jump to conclusions - after all reds are known to smash up cars, it has happened before and i would not wonder if it happens again. And then there is television, showing an intersection blocked by a crowd of reds - then the scene changes, showing a car with a smashed windshield and some damaged motorbikes with reds climbing all over them - a connection is made automatically by the brain, specially when it is only images with no actual news along with it (the news guy kept going on about the actual act of blocking the intersection and what loss it causes to the businesses located there).

Of course, once i knew what was really going on i had to correct my own statement as it was obviously wrong (based on my own opinion which of course can be wrong - i, too, am only human).

I just got back from the Motor Show and will now catch up on the news....

Kind regards.....

Thanh

[Thanh-BKK]

Yeah....

By the looks of it that 18-year old brat won't do too much time - rich people have their own laws unfortunately (that happens the world over, not only here - i could give a few example of my own "developed, first-world" native country, Germany.... but that would be off topic). He even apparently had a gun with him or in that car.

Didn't the Benz-guy become a monk for a week or some other ridiculously short time so he could be forgiven? Or was that yet another case? I am losing track of such stories here, people mowing down other people with cars and never get punished because they simply have money to buy their freedom.

In those regards i am completely with the reds by the way - i am just against Thaksin. I am all for peaceful protests - as long as they are for a real goal. Even shutting don intersections or airports gets my nod as long as it is for something that makes sense - ridding a country of a dictator, for example, or fighting for better education. But NOT for getting that previously deposed dictator back! And as long as the red leaders dance after Thaksin's flute i am feeling anger for their creating traffic chaos in downtown BKK and spoiling my Saturday morning sleep.

Message to the ordinary red shirt, if you have internet there at your intersection party: Ditch Thaksin and your ridiculous demand of house dissolution in 15 days time. You know, the current government would eventually listen to your REAL issues - and might even do something about them. You just need to give the government a chance - as long as you keep it occupied with your pseudo-issues you can't expect anything to change.

Best regards.....

Thanh

[gregb]

Where are all the Thaksin apologists now that should be calling the UDD terrorists?

As I remember, the yellow shirts went to protest at the airport, the airport director voluntarily closed it, but everyone kept saying that the PAD was entirely responsible for this. It wasn't voluntary. Now, I didn't approve of what the PAD had done, but they were far from terrorists.

So, now that the shoe is on the other foot, let me be the first to say:

THE UDD ARE TERRORISTS! THEY ARE PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR CLOSING EVERY MALL IN DOWNTOWN BANGKOK!

We don't want double standards now, do we?

Seriously, can we at least now agree that the PAD were not terrorists? Or if people still claim that they were, that the UDD are terrorists as well?

[TAWP]

Just a thought, if you were in your homeland and you were told you can not vote anymore despite it still being a democracy (because some fool says you are not educated enough) would you sit back and accept it?

Sorry, I think I have missed something again.

Where is the reference point for this statement ?

At the last election (and I am not aware of any legal changes) my poor, uneducated girlfriend was allowed to vote.

Really? you really don't know the PAD belief that the poor should not get the vote? This is one of the reasons the reds are protesting, protesting against elitism. Maybe you should try having a conversation with your poor uneducated girlfriend and ask her about this, ask her how she felt when this comment was made.

Maybe you should do that tony, as the suggestion (70:30) that you are referring to does NOT remove anyones right to vote.

It was a short lived suggestion regarding how many MPs that should be directly voted in by the population, the full population, and how many that would be voted in by the each professional field.

[traderjm]

Where are all the Thaksin apologists now that should be calling the UDD terrorists?

As I remember, the yellow shirts went to protest at the airport, the airport director voluntarily closed it, but everyone kept saying that the PAD was entirely responsible for this. It wasn't voluntary. Now, I didn't approve of what the PAD had done, but they were far from terrorists.

So, now that the shoe is on the other foot, let me be the first to say:

THE UDD ARE TERRORISTS! THEY ARE PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR CLOSING EVERY MALL IN DOWNTOWN BANGKOK!

We don't want double standards now, do we?

Seriously, can we at least now agree that the PAD were not terrorists? Or if people still claim that they were, that the UDD are terrorists as well?

You are wasting your energy, it is pretty clear in my brief time reading these threads that it's obvious that none of the Farang KIA apologists really believe what they spew but rather think it makes good theatre. Truth is I am staggered that they let this go on as long as they have today, to whomever the poster was with the "boo hoo the malls are closed" comment it's a shame your tunnel vision does not allow you to see that the malls being closed is not the issue, its WHY the malls are closed. There is nothing peaceful or democratic about a small, very small minority of people taking over intersections and all the possible danger to them and the people around that can come from it. I suppose if the Yellow shirts did this it would be ok as well right?? I mean they are only shopping malls right??? Geeeeeesh

[MellowYellow]

Where are all the Thaksin apologists now that should be calling the UDD terrorists?

As I remember, the yellow shirts went to protest at the airport, the airport director voluntarily closed it, but everyone kept saying that the PAD was entirely responsible for this. It wasn't voluntary. Now, I didn't approve of what the PAD had done, but they were far from terrorists.

So, now that the shoe is on the other foot, let me be the first to say:

THE UDD ARE TERRORISTS! THEY ARE PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR CLOSING EVERY MALL IN DOWNTOWN BANGKOK!

We don't want double standards now, do we?

Seriously, can we at least now agree that the PAD were not terrorists? Or if people still claim that they were, that the UDD are terrorists as well?

Still selling your lies?

You should just get back to dehumanizing red protestors and justifying violence against them.

"The PAD has completely taken control of Suvarnabhumi Airport so any airline that wants to take off or land must seek permission from us directly,'' said Chaiwat Sinswuwong, one of the leaders of the People's Alliance for Democracy.

LOLpeaceful protest at the airport

http://nationmultimedia.com/breakingnews/r...newsid=30089757

A plainclothes policewoman was nearly lynched by angry protesters at the Don Mueang Airport Saturday afternoon after she was identified and captured by guards of the People's Alliance for Democracy.

Now for the nature of the protesters...

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=676153

Protesters in Thailand are luring children into their airport rally by paying mums and dads to give up their kids, according to an Australian trapped in the country...

Many families are pushing their children to enter into the situation to provide more money for their families," she said.

The idea is that the military or police won't use as much force because children were still there, she said.

Ms Vennell said the more violent protesters — the "rebels" — were taking stimulants and pills to keep themselves awake, which was making them more agitated and angry.

Edited April 3, 2010 by MellowYellow

[jayboy]

I say congrats to the government keeping things as peaceful as they have. In the United States this would have been broken up by tear gas and riot police once they started taking over bridges without permission or marching to disrupt traffic without the proper permits. Not to mention with all the threats leveled there would be a bunch of people in jail.

That is a good point. However, the people in Bangkok wont sit back and let the government do nothign for ever. At some point they will denmand their democratic rights to go about their business are protected. That is when things get difficult for Abhisit. Quite how difficult depends on whether the reds start to be seen as going too far by the majority

Don't forget however that the demonstrations have been generally peaceful and orderly reflecting well both on the reds and the government.

As a commentator elsewhere points out

"It's worth noting that, despite all the mainsteam media's scare-mongering that the Red hordes might unleash violence across Bangkok, so far the only recorded cases of politically motivated violence at protests have been a hi-so kid ramming his Daddy's Porsche into some Reds' parked motorcycles and the UDD-supporting motorcyclist attached by Pink shirts yesterday. Plus the ominous images (the Red shirt dangling from a tree; the sign with 1976 anti-communist, pro-monarchist lyrics on) apparently stemming from Pink shirts brimming with righteous indignation...Maybe the Pinks are finding it harder to control their anger because they're more used to having things their own way?"

[MaiChai]

The reality is that alot of country folks don't understand the important of education and remove themselves from the school system at an early age. I guess they are too stupid? Unfortunately this is the way it is. Now there are exceptions; for example alot of girls do see the value in education and stick at it, while alot of the boys are to stupid (or not encourage by stupid parents) or too arogant. So alot of the girls get good jobs (although not at the higher level), while alot of the boys become taxi or motorcycle taxi drivers. Hence alot of the red shirts are of these uneducated group. So thus Thailand is divided by those who are educated and those who are not, with the majority being uneducated (primarily through choice/ignorance). How does democracy in this situation? The Taksin way where you buy peoples votes or the educated way (making coherent decisions); since the educated are in the minority how can an 'educated party' ever win?

[Scott]

Some posters are getting dangerously close to flaming and getting a warning and a holiday from the site.

There is no problem with disagreeing with the substance of a post, but please keep your remarks geared toward the content of the post; not the poster.

[MaiChai]

What I said is true; sorry but that is how it is. I have lived here a long time. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but mine is based on experience.

The reason I raised the point is that you can't use the western idea of democracy in Thailand since in the western world, the majority of people complete secondary school and can use reasoning and logic to make a decision. I have live in the country for a long time (now I choose to live in Bangkok) and I have seen some really stupid people; I mean people who do the most illogical things and cannot use logic and reasoning and cannot think things though. Some people don't understand how the world works and cannot choose a political party but can only follow, say the local headmans preference. Some of these people don't even understand basic laws and how the legal system works, so how can they avoid falling foul of the law? I also know some well educated country people; but to be honest they are in the minority. The debate was how the democatic system we talk about in the west can work in Thailand? I don't think it can work until people can think for themselves and alot of people can't because they have not complete basic education; they cannot use reasoning and logic to make their own decisions and look to others to guide them. Taksin manipulated this to his benefit and no amount of Thai democracy could correct his snuffing of the press and mass corruption.

Spicy

Edited April 4, 2010 by MaiChai

[Lite Beer]

A thinly veiled attempt at bringing the Monarchy into this has been deleted.

Any more posts of this kind will earn the poster a long holiday.

Thanks.

[Old Man River]

The reality is that alot of country folks don't understand the important of education and remove themselves from the school system at an early age. I guess they are too stupid? Unfortunately this is the way it is. Now there are exceptions; for example alot of girls do see the value in education and stick at it, while alot of the boys are to stupid (or not encourage by stupid parents) or too arogant. So alot of the girls get good jobs (although not at the higher level), while alot of the boys become taxi or motorcycle taxi drivers. Hence alot of the red shirts are of these uneducated group. So thus Thailand is divided by those who are educated and those who are not, with the majority being uneducated (primarily through choice/ignorance). How does democracy in this situation? The Taksin way where you buy peoples votes or the educated way (making coherent decisions); since the educated are in the minority how can an 'educated party' ever win?

It is the same in many countries. Poor farmers, with no alternative sources of income, require their young sons to leave school early and help in the fields. It is not about lack of intelligence, but rather economic need. I've seen it time and time again.

[jayboy]

The reality is that alot of country folks don't understand the important of education and remove themselves from the school system at an early age. I guess they are too stupid? Unfortunately this is the way it is. Now there are exceptions; for example alot of girls do see the value in education and stick at it, while alot of the boys are to stupid (or not encourage by stupid parents) or too arogant. So alot of the girls get good jobs (although not at the higher level), while alot of the boys become taxi or motorcycle taxi drivers. Hence alot of the red shirts are of these uneducated group. So thus Thailand is divided by those who are educated and those who are not, with the majority being uneducated (primarily through choice/ignorance). How does democracy in this situation? The Taksin way where you buy peoples votes or the educated way (making coherent decisions); since the educated are in the minority how can an 'educated party' ever win?

It is the same in many countries. Poor farmers, with no alternative sources of income, require their young sons to leave school early and help in the fields. It is not about lack of intelligence, but rather economic need. I've seen it time and time again.

I really don't buy any of this.It's not that there isn't a need to improve the standard and national coverage of education.It's just that in political terms to suggest that the "educated" urban class has a greater sense of moral values - or an understanding of what's best for the country - simply doesn't pass any credible set of tests.We know that in Thailand resources are unfairly skewed to the urban minority whether it be education, health or infrastructure.The deep aversion of the "educated" parties is not that the reds are "uneducated" but that there is now a very real prospect of resources being shared more equally.Furthermore there is a dread at the fact that the traditional deference in Thai society is changing.Add to this an ethnic factor (most though not of course all of the "educated" are of Chinese ethnicity and you have a potentially dangerous clash ahead.)

For those who have studied history or read widely none of this is surprising and none of it is unique to Thailand.What's odd in Thailand is that the struggle has come very late in the day and that for various reasons there has never been a proper debate.However the question posed "how -in a democracy - will the educated party win?" is one that has been asked in almost every society over the last 150 years.The answer of course is that the "educated" party, not that there is one in Thailand, cannot be guaranteed to prevail.The nearest thing to an educated group in Thailand was the PAD movement yet no serious commentator would argue that this movement had the interests of the whole country at heart.Politics is about struggle.In reality if the example of other countries is any guide the red movement leadership will gradually be taken over by middle class intellectuals and liberals.Gradually a consensus will emerge on all sides on what is important for Thai prosperity and security.

[Nuchanart]

http://thaipoliticalprisoners.files.wordpr...red-shirts2.jpg

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/specials/n...=1&pid=9009

Typical YELLOW rich kid (and son of politician) in a spot car.

If only you could read Thai.

If you google his name, you will find that he ....

[Old Man River]

The reality is that alot of country folks don't understand the important of education and remove themselves from the school system at an early age. I guess they are too stupid? Unfortunately this is the way it is. Now there are exceptions; for example alot of girls do see the value in education and stick at it, while alot of the boys are to stupid (or not encourage by stupid parents) or too arogant. So alot of the girls get good jobs (although not at the higher level), while alot of the boys become taxi or motorcycle taxi drivers. Hence alot of the red shirts are of these uneducated group. So thus Thailand is divided by those who are educated and those who are not, with the majority being uneducated (primarily through choice/ignorance). How does democracy in this situation? The Taksin way where you buy peoples votes or the educated way (making coherent decisions); since the educated are in the minority how can an 'educated party' ever win?

It is the same in many countries. Poor farmers, with no alternative sources of income, require their young sons to leave school early and help in the fields. It is not about lack of intelligence, but rather economic need. I've seen it time and time again.

I really don't buy any of this.It's not that there isn't a need to improve the standard and national coverage of education.It's just that in political terms to suggest that the "educated" urban class has a greater sense of moral values - or an understanding of what's best for the country - simply doesn't pass any credible set of tests.We know that in Thailand resources are unfairly skewed to the urban minority whether it be education, health or infrastructure.The deep aversion of the "educated" parties is not that the reds are "uneducated" but that there is now a very real prospect of resources being shared more equally.Furthermore there is a dread at the fact that the traditional deference in Thai society is changing.Add to this an ethnic factor (most though not of course all of the "educated" are of Chinese ethnicity and you have a potentially dangerous clash ahead.)

What does the ethnic factor, as you put it, have anything to do with this?