Anti-Red Shirts Protest Grows

[johncitizen]

The Reds didn't get what they want at all. A promise of a dissolution in 9 months ("unless the situation changes") is as good as a promise for a dissolution in 10 years.

The Reds are very aware of why the 9 month schedule + "constitutional reform" is so vital for the democrats.

9 months:

-Allows Prayuth to succeed Anupong as per the governments bargain with the Army.

-Allows the Government to set the next budget, allocating money to the Army for more goodies/kickbacks

-Allows the Government to continue its propaganda campaign using state funds

You might also have picked up on Abhisit's question re: electoral rules, party disqualification etc..

HINT: Good chances PT might be banned in the next 9 months.

Constitutional reform:

-Has nothing to do with democratization or bringing it in line with 1997 rules, but changing constituencies to ensure the minor parties (specifically BJT) get re-elected, thus paving the way for another Democrat led grand coalition.

The UDD might be willing to accept 2 months, but I guarantee you 9 months is out of the question.

EDIT: Newin is the last thing Thailand needs- picture Thaksin but younger, more hardcore and twice as corrupt.

And LM= the accusation against which there is no defence in Thailand.

Edited April 2, 2010 by johncitizen

[hammered]

I sincerely doubt that. The veneer of civilisation remains very thin in Thailand, and the culture of violence and allowing injustice/violence to occur will take a long time to dismantle. You are living in a country where sexual deviancy, murder, revenge, corruption, authoritarianism, secrecy etc. pervades every level of society, especially the uppermost levels. Have you ever seen a drunk/stoned Thai man when he is really angry? Have you ever seen the look in a Thai woman's eyes when she is cheated on? Have you listened to the rhetoric of the royalists/nationalists when they speak about someone accused of LM?

Now tell me again that Thailand is past lynching.

Re: leadership, how about Jaturon, Suranand or Jakrapob (were he ever to return to the country.)?

Have you ever been to the USA? Thailand is a much much much safer place for somebody to live. Nothing you mentioned is exclusive to Thailand and nothing you mentioned can be changed over night ... it is going to take time and the country is and has been moving in the right direction.

And as for the look in a Thai women's eye when you cheat on her ... please tell us all where we can go that women have no issue with being cheated on. ;-)

And what is LM .. sorry maybe I am just tired.

PS - Thailand is past lynching

Do you remember what happened to the guy that smashed the Erawan shrine in cental Bangkok?

[elcent]

Do you remember what happened to the guy that smashed the Erawan shrine in cental Bangkok?

He got lynched just a couple of meters away around the corner near to the entry of Erewan hotel?

[johncitizen]

Yep. They tore him to <deleted> pieces.

(Referring to the Erawan incident.)

Edited April 2, 2010 by johncitizen

[hammered]

Do you remember what happened to the guy that smashed the Erawan shrine in cental Bangkok?

He got lynched just a couple of meters away around the corner near to the entry of Erewan hotel?

Exactly. Well beaten to death rather than hanged. I could also tell of things upcountry but think the point has been made.

By the way, thanks for the musical distractions

[jdinasia]

The Reds didn't get what they want at all. A promise of a dissolution in 9 months ("unless the situation changes") is as good as a promise for a dissolution in 10 years.

The Reds are very aware of why the 9 month schedule + "constitutional reform" is so vital for the democrats.

9 months:

-Allows Prayuth to succeed Anupong as per the governments bargain with the Army.

-Allows the Government to set the next budget, allocating money to the Army for more goodies/kickbacks

-Allows the Government to continue its propaganda campaign using state funds

You might also have picked up on Abhisit's question re: electoral rules, party disqualification etc..

HINT: Good chances PT might be banned in the next 9 months.

Constitutional reform:

-Has nothing to do with democratization or bringing it in line with 1997 rules, but changing constituencies to ensure the minor parties (specifically BJT) get re-elected, thus paving the way for another Democrat led grand coalition.

The UDD might be willing to accept 2 months, but I guarantee you 9 months is out of the question.

Hmmmm now jc is privy to secret deals between the army and the government .... it is amazing what passes for "facts" amongst some people!

PT party disbanded? Why would that happen? But as soon as parliament is dissolved it will go pretty hard on Jatuporn. He's free only because of immunity from prosecution while he is a seated MP.

No Gerrymandering will be needed at all for BJT to refill the seats they have right now.

jc you have been having people translate PeopleTV for you far too often!

[johndpoole]

The Reds didn't get what they want at all. A promise of a dissolution in 9 months ("unless the situation changes") is as good as a promise for a dissolution in 10 years.

The Reds are very aware of why the 9 month schedule + "constitutional reform" is so vital for the democrats.

9 months:

-Allows Prayuth to succeed Anupong as per the governments bargain with the Army.

-Allows the Government to set the next budget, allocating money to the Army for more goodies/kickbacks

-Allows the Government to continue its propaganda campaign using state funds

You might also have picked up on Abhisit's question re: electoral rules, party disqualification etc..

HINT: Good chances PT might be banned in the next 9 months.

Constitutional reform:

-Has nothing to do with democratization or bringing it in line with 1997 rules, but changing constituencies to ensure the minor parties (specifically BJT) get re-elected, thus paving the way for another Democrat led grand coalition.

The UDD might be willing to accept 2 months, but I guarantee you 9 months is out of the question.

The current government is a legal one and that has been upheld or uncontested within the courts. There would be nothing wrong with elections not being held until they are due but he was willing to do this a year early. Of course he wants these things dealt with under the current government. Can you imagine what would happen if they tried to dissolve and hold elections prior to October in regards to the military let alone the entire country and the positive economic growth the country is seeing?

Waiting for elections is part of democracy as well as ousting corrupt leaders and having law makers or courts step in when things are getting out of control. The USA has been down this road a number of times and as this government allows peaceful protests, so do they but the bottom line is you have to wait for new elections and hope your person wins. The Reds could have won a huge victory but instead they are walking away as losers with little credibility and many of its leaders coming off like lunatics.

[jdinasia]

Do you remember what happened to the guy that smashed the Erawan shrine in cental Bangkok?

He got lynched just a couple of meters away around the corner near to the entry of Erewan hotel?

Exactly. Well beaten to death rather than hanged. I could also tell of things upcountry but think the point has been made.

By the way, thanks for the musical distractions

Ummmm the tragedy of the poor mentally ill guy that damaged the Erawan shrine was a sad sad thing. That exact same thing would be likely to happen in any country of believers where an important religious landmark was damaged/destroyed.

[johncitizen]

JD I am getting really tired of your guffawing and snorts of derision.

Contacts aside, having a cursory glance at this years political calendar would confirm everything I've just said.

If you have nothing useful to contribute to the discussion, I suggest you stay out of it.

[hammered]

EDIT: Newin is the last thing Thailand needs- picture Thaksin but younger, more hardcore and twice as corrupt.

And LM= the accusation against which there is no defence in Thailand.

I agree with the sentiment but was trying to match the criteria supplied by Steve in his original question. Newin would I think meet most of it

[johndpoole]

Do you remember what happened to the guy that smashed the Erawan shrine in cental Bangkok?

He got lynched just a couple of meters away around the corner near to the entry of Erewan hotel?

Exactly. Well beaten to death rather than hanged. I could also tell of things upcountry but think the point has been made.

By the way, thanks for the musical distractions

There is a huge difference between criminals and radical elements than a country as a whole. Under the current government lynching and anything close to it is a thing of the past but under Thaksin and his encouraging, rewarding and allowing police to do summary executions, it was much closer. So again, Thailand is heading in the right direction.

[johncitizen]

Well so far the UDD has done an excellent job of keeping their hardliners on a leash, I just sincerely hope the PAD will do the same. But the "pink" rally today was a worrying sign.

[elcent]

Well so far the UDD has done an excellent job of keeping their hardliners on a leash, I just sincerely hope the PAD will do the same. But the "pink" rally today was a worrying sign.

that's right. There are attempts to create a situation, carefully thought through, but it always will fail due to the reds reluctance to resort to violence. I even think that the red shirt biker was a setup. PAD has lost a long time ago.

[hammered]

Well so far the UDD has done an excellent job of keeping their hardliners on a leash, I just sincerely hope the PAD will do the same. But the "pink" rally today was a worrying sign.

The real PAD under Sondhi arent going to allow themselves to be used again. They will sit this round out or make their own moves. Other fringe elements may get involved in stuff. Sondhi though has a longer agenda and he needs Dem popularity to drop to achieve this while the PAD dont do anything to upset those who currently are Dem backers. At some point the old comrades may even get round to talking to each other again, who knows.

[johncitizen]

RE: elcent

(Sorry my "reply" button isn't working.)

It really wouldn't surprise me that it was a set up. But the sad fact is there is no way of knowing for certain. The media certainly can't be trusted, and everyone seems to have their own agenda. Thailand is all smoke and mirrors at the moment, and not being able to have an open discussion about the current state/future of the nation isn't helping any. I've heard some very interesting theories as to who is behind the grenade attacks and why, which I can't post here.

But one thing I am certain of, however, is that if the Democrats fudge this one opportunity for establishing real democracy in Thailand (by coming to an acceptable, transparent arrangement with the Reds, even if that means having to sit back and form a credible opposition for a while) then the next chance for peace, democracy and stability in this country will be a LOOOOOONG time coming.

[CLOD]

Are these guys who are scrykin now and out on anti-red protest rallies, the same guys who illegally occupied government house and suvarnabhumi.

Total hypocrasy.

It was ok when they were puttin the boot into democracy and causing all the troubles.(along with abisits blue army at pattaya and songkran).

[ratcatcher]

Surely most people here would agree that the nine month time frame P.M.Abhisit has given as a target for a dissolution, is for all the reasons above, but most importantly, the longer they can keep Thaksin out there in the cold (or heat), the more frantic and belligerent he will become, possibly leading to self destruction.

Time, very definitely, is not on Thaksin's side. He wants it all, and he wants it NOW!

[anotherpeter]

Well so far the UDD has done an excellent job of keeping their hardliners on a leash, I just sincerely hope the PAD will do the same. But the "pink" rally today was a worrying sign.

that's right. There are attempts to create a situation, carefully thought through, but it always will fail due to the reds reluctance to resort to violence. I even think that the red shirt biker was a setup. PAD has lost a long time ago.

There will be no situations if the red protestors and the anti-red protestors stay far enough apart.

So if the the anti-reds protest somewhere, a) it shouldn't be near the red protest area, and b ) the reds should keep away from it.

Whoever goes near the other is the one "creating a situation". But everyone is allowed to protest.

Edited April 2, 2010 by anotherpeter

[anotherpeter]

Are these guys who are scrykin now and out on anti-red protest rallies, the same guys who illegally occupied government house and suvarnabhumi.

Total hypocrasy.

It was ok when they were puttin the boot into democracy and causing all the troubles.(along with abisits blue army at pattaya and songkran).

There are people out there protesting (anti-red) that had nothing to do with the yellows, there are some that had something to do with the yellows but nothing to do with the airport, and others that may have been involved in airport fiasco.

But, as the reds put it, it's their democratic right to protest.

Yellows involved in the airport may be hypocritical if they are complaining about the effects on business, but if they are supporting the governments decision not to dissolve the house, then it is still their right to protest.

[steveromagnino]

The Reds didn't get what they want at all. A promise of a dissolution in 9 months ("unless the situation changes") is as good as a promise for a dissolution in 10 years.

The Reds are very aware of why the 9 month schedule + "constitutional reform" is so vital for the democrats.

9 months:

-Allows Prayuth to succeed Anupong as per the governments bargain with the Army.

-Allows the Government to set the next budget, allocating money to the Army for more goodies/kickbacks

-Allows the Government to continue its propaganda campaign using state funds

You might also have picked up on Abhisit's question re: electoral rules, party disqualification etc..

HINT: Good chances PT might be banned in the next 9 months.

Constitutional reform:

-Has nothing to do with democratization or bringing it in line with 1997 rules, but changing constituencies to ensure the minor parties (specifically BJT) get re-elected, thus paving the way for another Democrat led grand coalition.

OK, to first address 9 months.

1. yes, appointing army head is what both groups want; a snap election which would enable PT to have a shot at appointing someone biased to assist them is why PT want an election now

2. budget - neither here nor there; obviously PT want a shot at eating some for themselves as all politicians here seem to (except perhaps the honest ones, let me know if you meet a significant number :-) more importantly the economy is improving so sooner rather than later is better politically. You seem to single out paying money to the army; give me a break/cry me a river; this is standard PT propaganda but in fact represents a small portion of the total annual budget - EVERY politician wants to set the budget. PT is no different

3. Propoganda campaign. I want proof. Show me. Show me exact amounts. i am frigging sick of hearing this after having watched TRT squander huge amounts of money, my tax money, promoting themselves and their rubbish. The current govt have done little of the sort

4. PT to be disbanded???! The only thing PT care about is fiddling the constitution specifically so there are fewer punishments for cheating in an election! I'm unsure what else they want to change!

5. Constitutional reform. Well for a start, under 1997 rules, Thaksin is guilty also of everything he is accused of also; it isn't like a cloak of invisibility. However, how come only PT know what the majority of Thais want in constitutional reform, and we have to vote for them first, then we will find out what sort of a constitution we are going to get? Why can't the two issues be separate?

As for you suggestions on potential leader.

Suranand is impossible; he never suggested he had the slightest promise in office; he has no successful policies that the rural poor who make up the voter base now of PT (Bangkok is not strong for PT especially among the business sector) but only the business community even really know who he is. I do not believe at any point that anyone has seriously suggested him because he doesn't even lead a faction; he would be left out in the cold. While we may read his deranged ill thought out ramblings each week for amusement, he's a political list MP and cabinet minister of something at best.

Jakapop....I know Jakapop rather well. He is incapable of political leadership, he thinks the world of himself but has only the redeeming quality of being a good spokesperson who speaks fairly well in front of a camera. Other than that, he's a political lightweight. As a Mingkwan type, he would not be able to control the factions upcountry by any means, nor does he have the financial firepower or political reputation to do so. He has very little idea of what actually policy specific economic policy for instance is supposed to encompass, and he is a relatively smart guy, but could be relied on to be perhaps one of those politicians who rewards friends (as he alledgedly did when he headed up the PM's Office under Samak, spending 150MB on a one night rebranding of a TV station before firing all the staff who spoke ill of Thaksin in a hark back to the ITV rebels days) and ignores advisors.

Also, now that people can watch what he said, unless there is a change in certain key aspects of the Thai psyche regarding who they love, what he said was simply unacceptable. Plus he lied that he said it in THai, until it was caught that he had previously said exactly that in Thai in Los Angeles. The see muang aspect may not help also, given that apparently red shirts aren't up for a bit of backdoor 2 boys 1 cup action.

Chaturon is a possibility, despite scorecard calling me out big time when I previously implied the guy's not a knob (after all, he did turn a blind eye to the extra judicial killings, the lies about the chicken flu, and so on) but I do think he has the education and experience that the other two don't. But...let's not forget that he led TRT after Sudarat refused with spectacular lack or column inches and coverage. He's a bit of a Somkid type in that he doesn't have that magnetism that Thaksin has.

Which is the interesting thing about Newin. I have no doubt if he was still on the TRT/PPP/PT money train, right now that would be the only guy they would look at as a leader. Very clever, ruthless, financial firepower, connections, verbose, tough as nails in a street thug meet you after a footie game and head butt you kind of way. This is the sort of model that works for appealing to upcountry voters. Now, whether you would want such a guy running things.....it's basically the thought of twits like Chalerm and Chavalit that kind of pushes a person to say, who is the least bad of this lot?

And that's a scary thing, when on the other side, you have guys like Korn who would have more brains that this lot listed aboe put together, plus the acumen to make things happen.....but upcountry his skills are worth very little.

The strongman I'll sort stuff out image. Chaturon lacking it a bit.

I dunno. I suspect one of the big issues the red shirts have is that they are indeed a one hit record; it's Thaksin or no one. Because there isn't a 2nd person they can turn to with the magnetism to acheive anything.

[pop3]

Any peaceful protest just allows the government to bide their time. sad but that's the way it is

[rainman]

Police rescued a red-shirt motorcyclists who was captured and attacked by pink-shirt demonstrators inside the Lumpini Park.

The pink-shirt people were dispersing at 5:30 pm when the spotted a motorcyclist in red-shirt with the logo of the Democratic Alliance Against Dictatorship riding inside the park.

They ran to attack the man, prompting police to come to rescue him and free him from the pink-shirt people.

So much for the "peaceful pinks" and "pinks for peace"

[Kiccoro]

One more picture to share:

All photos taken by friends who work in an office building near Lumpini Park.

According to them, many people working in the offices around there actually went down to join in and support the pink shirts' rally... even during office hours... haha....

I wonder what the bosses will say... or maybe boss was in the rally too...

[johncitizen]

Considering the area the protests happened in, I doubt big businesses had a problem sending their people off to the rallies. It's a matter of self-preservation for them. Contrast this with threats of migrant workers being deported and receiving massive fines if they took part in the protests.

And pinko's allowed to attend protests during working hours?

Who's being "paid to protest" now?

[rainman]

All photos taken by friends who work in an office building near Lumpini Park.

According to them, many people working in the offices around there actually went down to join in and support the pink shirts' rally... even during office hours... haha....

I wonder what the bosses will say... or maybe boss was in the rally too...

Earlier I heard some of the pink shirt speeches, saying they were losing money because of the red shirt demonstrations. Then they go and join the demonstrations during work hours? Aren't they losing money then too? Or are their employers paying them to go protest?

[rainman]

What is this farang doing protesting for the pink shirts? I thought the government would revoke the visas of all foreign workers who went to protest? Or is that only if they wear a red shirt (so called double standards)?

[Kiccoro]

Nah, I don't think it has anything to do with being 'paid to protest'. Like my friends, they all work in private companies, and some go there out of curiosity, and some are really fed up with the red shirts, and thus they decided to join in the pinks. These people are highly paid in their jobs, working in high positions in big MNCs. Definitely not people who accept THB2000 to show their presence.

[johncitizen]

If they are allowed to protest while being paid to work, are they not thus being paid to protest?

EDIT: If so, I would hazard a guess that the amount would be at least 2000B.

Edited April 2, 2010 by johncitizen

[anotherpeter]

If they are allowed to protest while being paid to work, are they not thus being paid to protest?

EDIT: If so, I would hazard a guess that the amount would be at least 2000B.

Possibly they took half a day off, or they are making it up working overtime.

Or they could have taken time off with out their boss knowing.

But I suppose you can spin it whatever way you like to suit your views.

[rainman]

I'm more concerned about the pink shirts' message for "peace". The red shirts are now into their 3rd week of protest without violence, while the pink shirts at Lumphini today attacked and took hostage a red shirt on a motorbike, until police officers saved him.

Red shirts = 3rd week without violence...

Pink shirts = not even 1 day...

Pink is clearly the new yellow this year.