Gold & Silver Manipulation

[flying]

A small correction here: there is at least one ETF on gold which has 100% of its value backed in gold owned by the fund.

Independently audited on a regular basis? Just curious...

In fact there are several "physical" ETFs, but I am only certain of one being audited: The Julius Baer Physical Gold Fund, which is listed on the SWX Swiss Exchange, launched in the third quarter 2008 if I remember well.

It can be delivered in kind.

ISIN 0044781141

I found a link:

http://www.fundinfo.com/de/CH.professional...31-01-2010.html

I cannot read that link but have never found any ETF's that are audited...Not even other swiss ones like. ZKB (ZGLD)etc...

[flying]

i repeat "there is no such thing like a physical ETF" but ETFs might exist which are 100% backed by physical gold.

That makes them kind of like a forum eh? Lots of claims about backing but none verifiable

Or perhaps more like the FDIC.......backed by the full faith and credit of the United States.

Edited April 3, 2010 by flying

[Naam]

I cannot read that link but have never found any ETF's that are audited... Not even other swiss ones like. ZKB (ZGLD)etc...

that should be done when JB's balance is audited.

[manarak]

no, auditing is a listing requirement for the Swiss Exchange.

if you check this page:

http://www.ch.etfinfo.com/de/pro/product/CH0044781141/#facts

you will see that the fund is audited by KPMG.

The ZKB gold fund is audited by Ernst & Young.

Flying, where do you get your infos from? (or don't get would be more accurate).

@Naam:

what do you call a "physical" ETF if not a fund backed 100% by physical gold stored in vaults with numbered, physically deliverable ingots?

Edited April 4, 2010 by manarak

[Naam]

no, auditing is a listing requirement for the Swiss Exchange.

if you check this page:

http://www.ch.etfinfo.com/de/pro/product/CH0044781141/#facts

you will see that the fund is audited by KPMG.

@Naam:

what do you call a "physical" ETF if not a fund backed 100% by physical gold stored in vaults with numbered, physically deliverable ingots?

i don't call any ETF "physical" as ETFs are printed paper and to the best of my knowledge they can't be held (like some bonds or shares" "physically".

[flying]

The ZKB gold fund is audited by Ernst & Young.

Flying, where do you get your infos from? (or don't get would be more accurate).

Snippy little sh1t aren't you?

Anyway since you asked nicely

I got it from their site......

Ernst & Young are ZKB's external auditors. The firm audits the annual financial statements of all group companies

Perhaps you consider auditing a financial statement the same as auditing physical holdings? I read it as a financial statement....

In any case it was just a question....I asked if any of these have independent audits of the physical holdings.

Matters not to me because I still prefer to hold what I own & as such do wonder where you get your mis-information?

it actually costs quite a bunch of money to store.

[ding]

Here's my opinion. Constructive deconstruction is politely requested.

I see countries acting like drunken lunatics; USA hides the M3, tax cuts during unnecessary wars, the PIIGS, Iceland, UK, et al.

I see traders and financial service folks making stock markets into a Ponzi scheme to end all Ponzi schemes- Credit Default Swaps, etc.

I see banks behaving like drunken teenagers -and governments rewarding the behavior by using tax dollars to refund the reckless gambling losses.

I see that currencies have devalued in history, and become nearly worthless -Argentina, Germany... inflation happens.

And I see people like me -seeing this as a scheme and getting out of the game because I realize I'm not going to get to play in a game with rules. Thomas Hobbes goes to Wall Street and gets nobbed by Ayn Rand. And more people are seeing the house of cards all the time, and putting fingers to the wind. Not just the wealthy, but working and middle class people have no faith in their governments, institutions, and fiat currencies.

So, that's why I think gold is valuable to physically hold, and will become more valuable in many countries. I can trade my gold coins for however many "Blups" my gold coin is said to be worth at whatever day in whichever country. So I may get $1.100USD an Oz. today, and when I need housing I can sell it at 4 wheel barrows full in however many days. Whatever the current market can pay when I need to sell for goods or housing.

That my think.

Edited April 4, 2010 by ding

[manarak]

The ZKB gold fund is audited by Ernst & Young.

Flying, where do you get your infos from? (or don't get would be more accurate).

Snippy little sh1t aren't you?

Anyway since you asked nicely

I got it from their site......

Ernst & Young are ZKB's external auditors. The firm audits the annual financial statements of all group companies

Perhaps you consider auditing a financial statement the same as auditing physical holdings? I read it as a financial statement....

In any case it was just a question....I asked if any of these have independent audits of the physical holdings.

Matters not to me because I still prefer to hold what I own & as such do wonder where you get your mis-information?

it actually costs quite a bunch of money to store.

ok you've got a point :-)

but auditing is a serious thing in Switzerland.

[Naam]

So, that's why I think gold is valuable to physically hold, and will become more valuable in many countries. I can trade my gold coins for however many "Blups" my gold coin is said to be worth at whatever day in whichever country. So I may get $1.100USD an Oz. today, and when I need housing I can sell it at 4 wheel barrows full in however many days. Whatever the current market can pay when I need to sell for goods or housing. That my think.

right you think! am i right to assume that you transport your gold as well as the wheel barrow in your private jet and smuggle all the coins into whichever country at whatever day you please?

[manarak]

his wheelchair is made of gold/platinum alloy...

[sokal]

no, auditing is a listing requirement for the Swiss Exchange.

if you check this page:

http://www.ch.etfinfo.com/de/pro/product/CH0044781141/#facts

you will see that the fund is audited by KPMG.

The ZKB gold fund is audited by Ernst & Young.

Flying, where do you get your infos from? (or don't get would be more accurate).

@Naam:

what do you call a "physical" ETF if not a fund backed 100% by physical gold stored in vaults with numbered, physically deliverable ingots?

No bullion ETFs can be trusted.

Signed

David Einhorn

[sokal]

The ZKB gold fund is audited by Ernst & Young.

Flying, where do you get your infos from? (or don't get would be more accurate).

Snippy little sh1t aren't you?

Anyway since you asked nicely

I got it from their site......

Ernst & Young are ZKB's external auditors. The firm audits the annual financial statements of all group companies

Perhaps you consider auditing a financial statement the same as auditing physical holdings? I read it as a financial statement....

In any case it was just a question....I asked if any of these have independent audits of the physical holdings.

Matters not to me because I still prefer to hold what I own & as such do wonder where you get your mis-information?

it actually costs quite a bunch of money to store.

So did these Ernst and Young clowns count the ingots or not ? I still have no strait answer....

[Abrak]

No bullion ETFs can be trusted.

What bugs me is that the only people who think that a gold backed paper currency is actually a credible idea dont even believe that existing paper backed gold entities are credible.

As one poster put it if there was a gold dollar backed currency the currency would be as good as gold (but presumably before the actually did an audit.)

Most people realize that a gold backed paper currency is ridiculously stupid and would lead to the bankruptcy in gold terms of the country that introduced it (so would wish for gold instead of paper) while those who want a gold backed paper currency wont inherently trust the paper and will prefer gold (so would wish for gold instead of paper).

Actually the whole point of fiat is that it is fiat and has no true underlying value whatsoever. It is simply a means of exchange. Imagine what a nightmare the global economy would be if cash had an inherent value.

Edited April 4, 2010 by Abrak

[flying]

ok you've got a point :-)

but auditing is a serious thing in Switzerland.

But I think you missed mine

So did these Ernst and Young clowns count the ingots or not ? I still have no strait answer....

There is no verifiable bar list or independent audit of the gold.

As I said AFAIK they audit the financial statement....Which should not..... although it does get confused with a verifiable bar list.

As in....One with serial numbers

Edited April 4, 2010 by flying

[losworld]

The entire market is manipulated. The traders or market makers use signals all the time to signal ups and downs and to screw those not in the loop. If anyone has seriously used level II trading they will see instances of many tricks used by the MMs.

The biggest single indiactor of how easily these markets are manipulated is the current bull market going on during one of the worst recessions/depressions in history.

And like Vegas this market is in the hands of the criminal elite.

[sokal]

No bullion ETFs can be trusted.

What bugs me is that the only people who think that a gold backed paper currency is actually a credible idea dont even believe that existing paper backed gold entities are credible.

As one poster put it if there was a gold dollar backed currency the currency would be as good as gold (but presumably before the actually did an audit.)

Most people realize that a gold backed paper currency is ridiculously stupid and would lead to the bankruptcy in gold terms of the country that introduced it (so would wish for gold instead of paper) while those who want a gold backed paper currency wont inherently trust the paper and will prefer gold (so would wish for gold instead of paper).

Actually the whole point of fiat is that it is fiat and has no true underlying value whatsoever. It is simply a means of exchange. Imagine what a nightmare the global economy would be if cash had an inherent value.

I don't want a gold backed currency, neither does GATA. I want the gold price to float freely on an unmolested physical market. Currencies do not have to be backed by gold to have any association with gold. The ECB just marks its physical gold holdings to market on the asset side if their balance sheet, that is why, in my opinion, the Euro will outlast the FED.

[sokal]

The entire market is manipulated. The traders or market makers use signals all the time to signal ups and downs and to screw those not in the loop. If anyone has seriously used level II trading they will see instances of many tricks used by the MMs.

The biggest single indiactor of how easily these markets are manipulated is the current bull market going on during one of the worst recessions/depressions in history.

And like Vegas this market is in the hands of the criminal elite.

No offense but you have allot to learn about gold. The super elite like JPM are manipulating the gold market down, not up.

[Naam]

The entire market is manipulated. The traders or market makers use signals all the time to signal ups and downs and to screw those not in the loop. If anyone has seriously used level II trading they will see instances of many tricks used by the MMs.

The biggest single indiactor of how easily these markets are manipulated is the current bull market going on during one of the worst recessions/depressions in history.

And like Vegas this market is in the hands of the criminal elite.

No offense but you have allot to learn about gold. The super elite like JPM are manipulating the gold market down, not up.

Sokal, it's about time you learned to spell "a lot".

[JRinger]

whistle blower? markets manipulated? YAWWNNNNN... manipulation happens in all markets, has happened and will happen all the time. welcome to reality and expensive bakeries

1. ....so you're suggesting that because it "happens-all the time" that it shouldn't be made available to those who aren't as informed and intelligent as you try to appear ?

2. Rape, murder, suicide, etc., also happen all the time, are those topics also "YAWWNNNNN" boring to you as well. should we only take notice of your posts as being relevant, like the statement you made some time ago,

3. "Gold is going nowhere and it never will"....I think gold was about $600 an ounce when you made that statement.

1. intelligent people do not fret about water under the bridge or snow that thawed last winter but adapt.

2. yes, they are.

3. gold didn't go anywhere. i believe i made the statement in august 2008 when gold traded around $ 750/ounce. those who bought gold then didn't even double their money. those who bought "my" asset class tripled and quadrupled whatever amount they applied.

Gold has multiplied by more than 4 times over the past decade! Viewed in the big picture gold has been steadily going up. And how well has the typical establishment follower done over the past decade? Well, we might take the S&P 500 as our measure. Over the past decade, the S&P 500 has declined by 25%. Now what would you prefer – 300% up or 25% down?

[Naam]

Gold has multiplied by more than 4 times over the past decade! Viewed in the big picture gold has been steadily going up. And how well has the typical establishment follower done over the past decade? Well, we might take the S&P 500 as our measure. Over the past decade, the S&P 500 has declined by 25%. Now what would you prefer – 300% up or 25% down?

not all investors were that brain amputated to invest in S&P stocks

[midas]

I have only glanced briefly at this thread so were people just talking about “ manipulation ” or is it even more government sponsored fraud ?

“claim that the US Government has been involved in a massive and outrageous fraud - that is, the "creation" of fake gold bars that are in fact tungsten with a gold veneer on top. We're not talking about a "few" bars either. The allegation is that ten thousand metric tons of fake bars are in fact in circulation - right now - and that our government was the one that caused it to happen.”

http://www.market-ticker.org/archives/P2.html

[Naam]

I have only glanced briefly at this thread so were people just talking about “ manipulation ” or is it even more government sponsored fraud ?

“claim that the US Government has been involved in a massive and outrageous fraud - that is, the "creation" of fake gold bars that are in fact tungsten with a gold veneer on top. We're not talking about a "few" bars either. The allegation is that ten thousand metric tons of fake bars are in fact in circulation - right now - and that our government was the one that caused it to happen.”

http://www.market-ticker.org/archives/P2.html

The allegation is that i am able to do it three times daily, seven days a week. alas, unfortunately it is only an allegation

[sokal]

I have only glanced briefly at this thread so were people just talking about " manipulation " or is it even more government sponsored fraud ?

"claim that the US Government has been involved in a massive and outrageous fraud - that is, the "creation" of fake gold bars that are in fact tungsten with a gold veneer on top. We're not talking about a "few" bars either. The allegation is that ten thousand metric tons of fake bars are in fact in circulation - right now - and that our government was the one that caused it to happen."

http://www.market-ticker.org/archives/P2.html

The allegation is that i am able to do it three times daily, seven days a week. alas, unfortunately it is only an allegation

The tungsten bar story will not even add up to much if the paper gold is already leveraged 100 to 1. I am not sold on the tungsten bar story.

[Abrak]

The tungsten bar story will not even add up to much if the paper gold is already leveraged 100 to 1. I am not sold on the tungsten bar story.

If paper gold is leveraged 100:1 to physical gold I will have to admit that my theory that little green goblins dont exist is actually perfectly plausible.

[lannarebirth]

Gold has multiplied by more than 4 times over the past decade! Viewed in the big picture gold has been steadily going up. And how well has the typical establishment follower done over the past decade? Well, we might take the S&P 500 as our measure. Over the past decade, the S&P 500 has declined by 25%. Now what would you prefer – 300% up or 25% down?

not all investors were that brain amputated to invest in S&P stocks

Luckily they amputated that part of my brain that senses pain or that might sting a little. Truthfully I buy "the whole thing" which isn't quite the same thing.

[flying]

Luckily they amputated that part of my brain that senses pain or that might sting a little. Truthfully I buy "the whole thing" which isn't quite the same thing.

I did think of you when I saw that

I know I have read your posts in the past that said you like to buy the index.

I also know when folks post these charts of terms it does not have to suggest anyone was in & stayed in or out & stayed out.

Lots to be made I'm sure by someone who knows when to be either

Edited April 6, 2010 by flying

[ding]

So, that's why I think gold is valuable to physically hold, and will become more valuable in many countries. I can trade my gold coins for however many "Blups" my gold coin is said to be worth at whatever day in whichever country. So I may get $1.100USD an Oz. today, and when I need housing I can sell it at 4 wheel barrows full in however many days. Whatever the current market can pay when I need to sell for goods or housing. That my think.

right you think! am i right to assume that you transport your gold as well as the wheel barrow in your private jet and smuggle all the coins into whichever country at whatever day you please?

Is there a ban on my bringing my few coins into Thailand? - to sell at whatever price they bring?

[flying]

Is there a ban on my bringing my few coins into Thailand? - to sell at whatever price they bring?

Personally I have not.( as the premiums outside LOS would probably fetch a better price) ...but, have read of others how did bring in Canadian Maples & had no problem at all.

Edited April 6, 2010 by flying

[Naam]

So, that's why I think gold is valuable to physically hold, and will become more valuable in many countries. I can trade my gold coins for however many "Blups" my gold coin is said to be worth at whatever day in whichever country. So I may get $1.100USD an Oz. today, and when I need housing I can sell it at 4 wheel barrows full in however many days. Whatever the current market can pay when I need to sell for goods or housing. That my think.

right you think! am i right to assume that you transport your gold as well as the wheel barrow in your private jet and smuggle all the coins into whichever country at whatever day you please?

Is there a ban on my bringing my few coins into Thailand? - to sell at whatever price they bring?

i don't think you will have any problems depending on your definition of "few". but pushing a wheel barrow filled with gold coins through thai customs is not a good idea... i think

[Naam]

Gold has multiplied by more than 4 times over the past decade! Viewed in the big picture gold has been steadily going up. And how well has the typical establishment follower done over the past decade? Well, we might take the S&P 500 as our measure. Over the past decade, the S&P 500 has declined by 25%. Now what would you prefer – 300% up or 25% down?

not all investors were that brain amputated to invest in S&P stocks

Luckily they amputated that part of my brain that senses pain or that might sting a little. Truthfully I buy "the whole thing" which isn't quite the same thing.

and you should truthfully admit that you don't buy anything and keep on holding it in case it goes down, down, down.