Democrat MPs Angry Over Suthep's Soft Handling Of Red-Shirts

[steveromagnino]

Now it seems the dems now in power are facing party dissolution ?

What's going on ?

They have been facing that for ages. A week or so ago the EC said they would conclude the case on April 20.

That would explain why there a group of 30 MP voice their disappointment now. It isn't about to push Abhisit, but send signals to their constituencies. After a dissolution the new "Dems" will be without Abhisit Party leader get banned from politics. Korn and Ong-art will probably join New Politics Party.

I wish them good luck.

Pretty low chance I think Korn would go to New Politics Party.

Korn is potential PM material if we ever go to a real democracy here; he doesn't need to go mix with the pig food like PT, New Politics, et al.

Edited April 5, 2010 by steveromagnino

[TAWP]

I am flattered to see that a moderator has weighed in, full bias and all and provided a response which wasn't even relevant to my initial position. I respond to the points as follows;

1. How many Issan farmers pay taxes?

Most of them. How so you ask? The Thai government introduced a series of indirect taxes in 1992 starting with the VAT. Although farm products are mostly exempt, the goods and services of many items associated with farming are not. Thailand never ever relied upon personal income taxes. It is a country where only about 20% of the population pays some form of income tax. If you believe that Thailand relies on that 20%, then you are greatly mistaken. the 3% SBT and 7% VAT are important revenue sources as are the other series of fees. The Issan farmer is alot like the Bangkok elites because that farmer pays the same rate of tax on his or her purchases. Unfortunately, such a system is hardly progressive and acts to put a larger share of the tax burden on the poor.

You are making 2 mistakes here:

1) You assume that the shop-owners keep accurate books and that they declare all incomes. As we all know, most street vendors (even if they reach the tax income bracket), mom and pop shops, normal stores etc greatly under-represent their incomes. If you don't believe me, just take a day and go over their books. I have seen some.

2) You say that a tax-system that is not progressing in scale is unfair to the poor when it comes to the VAT. Not at all, fair is that people pay an equal share added in tax on their purchase. The richer, doing more purchases, already pay several times more in actual tax baht than the poor. You want the one buying an imported steak instead of a cheap local chicken breast to be further penalized by adding twice the amount of VAT on their purchase?

Tawp, you are the one that has it wrong. Maybe your libertarian sensitivities have taken over?

1. It doesn't matter if the mom amd pop stores under declare their income. They are taxed when they purchase their stock. That's how VAT works. The supplier charges them. True the suppliers can sometimes fiddle with their books, but who are the suppliers for all of these vendors? It all is in the hands of a few distributors who act as a semi monopoly. Who are the major trading houses in Thailand and who benefits from all of this? The same oligarchy.

2. You do not understand how a VAT/GST system works. Perhaps this is because you are an American and have never seen it in action. In an affluent nation it can and does work. However, in an impoverished nation, it has more costs than benefits. here's why;

The VAT classified as a regressive tax. Regressive taxes tend to benefit the wealthy and punish the poor. Why? Someone making 1 million baht a year may only spend 15% of their income, so only 15% is taxed. The guy that operates a noodle stand may only make 100,000 baht a year and spends it all supporting his family. As such this person is taxed on 100% of his income. You may counter and say well if this person doesn't spend he won't have to pay VAT, but what if he has no choice living a subsistence life?

Western countries like Canada address this negative aspect of the tax by providing automatic refunds paid on a quarterly basis to those below a set income. Thailand does not do this. I happen to be a big advocate of the VAT because it cuts into the "black" market for goods and services. The mechanic may make a deal to fix your car, but he still has to pay VAT on the parts that he will use for the repairs so the only thing he is giving up is his labour income. The government still manages to get more than it would under a basic sales tax system. However, VAT works best in countries where there is affluence.

Please also keep in mind that specific sectors and industries are VAT exempt. These special trade zones are not controlled by the poor, but once again by the same group of families that own most things in Thailand.

Once again you draw conclusions and conjectures from inconclusive facts and then go full steam ahead with it.

No, I am not an American. But thanks for playing 'guess my country of origin'. I have only stated what it is over a 100 times on this forum. Moving on...

1) Yes, it matters if mom and pop store undervalue their sales, if orchid growers declare basically zero sales etc. First of all it matters since there IS a lost tax income. Secondly it matters because it is an attitude-issue. The same people that do everything to avoid paying taxes want the government to give them a lot of benefits and extra help. Where is the fairness in that? To complain about double standard or how unjust things are when they themselves are the core of this issue is ironic at best.

2) You make the mistake of looking at one tax-angle and ignoring the others, so you can pull out the socialist new-speak how the low payed has to pay more of his salary in VAT when he buys food than the richer gentleman that might put some of his money in the bank. True, the same is also true for those that eat less than others. Or those that grow their own food. This however gives us no right to penalize those that buy higher priced merchandise. If the poor farmer saves enough to by a fancy car should he now be seen upon by jealous eyes and have to pay a higher VAT level for the car than the neighbours for the food since he in that purchase show off more money? Non-withstanding the fact that many higher income earners already pay a higher tax, as even in Thailand the tax-system is scaled progressive, not a flat tax on income. So let's hit'em with twice the tax on every area, shall we? Work twice as much and get only 20% more in salary? That is what this a perverted tax-system in my home-country could do to doctors and other medium to high income earners some years back. All very fair...

Oh, and taxes are theft.

[jayboy]

Pretty low chance I think Korn would go to New Politics Party.

Korn is potential PM material if we ever go to a real democracy here; he doesn't need to go mix with the pig food like PT, New Politics, et al.

Steve you're right Korn is really high quality and could represent Thailand superbly well at the highest level.He needs however to be a little careful to project that he is a man for all Thai people, not just Bangkok sophisticates.Even his close friends agree those Facebook musings "only the wealthy can understand moral issues etc" were ill judged.There's general agreement he's morally clean wealthy,smart and well educated but he needs to develop a broader political base if he is to escape the technocrat straitjacket and transcend that Bangkok upper middle class world.In a sentence he needs to take a leaf out of other posh boys like Boris Johnson or David Cameron.I'm not suggesting he hug a hoodie or two ( but presumably there's a Thai equivalent).Seriously he doesn't have to pretend to be what he isn't but he needs to get out a bit more.

These are minor criticisms.He's done a fantastic job as Finance Minister and time is on his side.

[steveromagnino]

2) You make the mistake of looking at one tax-angle and ignoring the others, so you can pull out the socialist new-speak how the low payed has to pay more of his salary in VAT when he buys food than the richer gentleman that might put some of his money in the bank. True, the same is also true for those that eat less than others. Or those that grow their own food. This however gives us no right to penalize those that buy higher priced merchandise. If the poor farmer saves enough to by a fancy car should he now be seen upon by jealous eyes and have to pay a higher VAT level for the car than the neighbours for the food since he in that purchase show off more money? Non-withstanding the fact that many higher income earners already pay a higher tax, as even in Thailand the tax-system is scaled progressive, not a flat tax on income. So let's hit'em with twice the tax on every area, shall we? Work twice as much and get only 20% more in salary? That is what this a perverted tax-system in my home-country could do to doctors and other medium to high income earners some years back. All very fair...

We need to bear in mind that VAT is one type of tax. Actually, corporate and personal tax put together are more than the amount of revenue collected from VAT.

2007 data - total collection 100% = 192,795m baht

39% VAT

17% personal income tax

34% corporate income tax

10% petroleum; SBT; stamp duty; other

Since low income people (such as famers) don't usually pay personal or corporate tax, they may pay more VAT proportionately as a function of their income, but then less from other sources.

This I presume excludes the municipal taxes which are another area to consider. They also exclude I presume the excise taxes and the lottery, which are probably the two biggest poor person taxes in Thailand - booze, cigarettes and playing people for mugs with the lottery. Gambling is the single best poor person tax there is.

TO use the example of the rich man paying VAT on the 15% of his income that he spends, if he is also saving the other 85% in the bank, then he is paying potentially 30% on the earnings from the rest; it isn't a complete free ride.

A major question is whether to use proportion or total amount or what as the guide of what is too much tax for the rich, and what is too little. Ditto for the poor.

In my case, I pay in tax per year something in the realm of corporate/personal excluding VAT something like 1-2m baht. For that I don't receive healthcare, cheap loans, subsidised anything - I don't use subsidised infrastructure paid for by taxes - I didn't use govt funded education - I don't drive a diesel or gas car - I basically get not much for the amount I put in. A full ~30% plus of what I make is disappearing in tax plus what i pay in VAT...proportionately I pay less in VAT but overall I am paying a higher percentage in tax as I am part of the middle - the people earning enough to get by but not enough to be running (ahem) Ample Rich type BVI tax shelters and the like.

I don't begrudge paying it.....I see poverty and I have more than enough left.....but philosophically I am not sure who pays too much who pays too little.

The best IMHO is a single low flat tax rate on income IMHO with a bit of a free section at the bottom - not so far off what happens now, in which case, again the poor end up paying proportionately more of their disposable income in tax. But they also end up getting more of the services that cost cash; how much is too much or too little, again is completely open to debate.

Geriatrickid; perhaps this could be moved to general discussion; I think as a topic on its own, reform and signals of the thai tax system is a fascinating one, which i must confess to knowing not enough about.

VAT liability = Output Tax - Input Tax

This is my understanding of what is VAT exempt.

Small entrepreneur whose annual turnover is less than 1.8 million baht;

Sales and import of unprocessed agricultural products and related goods such as fertilizers, animal feeds, pesticides, etc.;

Newspaper and media

Certain basic services such as:

transportation : domestic and international transportation by way of land;

healthcare services provided by government and private hospitals as well as clinics;

educational services provided by government and private schools and other recognized educational institutions;

professional services : Medical and auditing services, lawyer services in court and other similar professional services that have laws regulating such professions;

renting of immovable properties;

Cultural services such as amateur sports, services of libraries, museums, zoos;

Services in the nature of employment of labour, research and technical services and services of public entertainers;

Goods exempted from import duties under the Industrial Estate law imported into an Export Processing Zones (EPZs) and under Chapter 4 of the Customs Tariff Act;

Imported goods that are kept under the supervision of the Customs Department which will be re-exported and be entitled to a refund for import duties; and

Other services such as religious and charitable services, services of government agencies and local authorities.

Which ones you think are the wealthy groups? I am guessing... the jao por businesses supplying the rural economy - fertilizers, animal feeds, etc. Transportation is another classic rural mafia business. It sure is funny how many seemingly VAT paying businesses have a component of service of management or consulting to their operations.

Would guess the regional magnates make a fair bit from the lottery also. The underground one.

Edited April 5, 2010 by steveromagnino

[OzMick]

He said he could not understand why the red shirts seemed inclined to attack the yellow shirts - who were not in a position of power.

The red shirts had no justification in faulting the yellow shirts, he said.

For example, the yellow shirts were not responsible for the closure of Suvarnabhumi Airport in 2008, he claimed, arguing that the shut-down was ordered by airport manager Serirat Prasutanont, who is a relative of red-shirt leader Veera.

Now MPs are spewing historical revision.

The members of this forum love to snipe away and crazy red ramblings, now lets see if they have the integrity to equally stomp down on the lies spewing from the sitting government.

Apparently you are unaware that Suriyasai Katasila is not an MP and is not part of the current government.

Mellow Yellow is unaware of quite a bit more than that. He displays an amazing ability to not read, remember, reason............

[steveromagnino]

Pretty low chance I think Korn would go to New Politics Party.

Korn is potential PM material if we ever go to a real democracy here; he doesn't need to go mix with the pig food like PT, New Politics, et al.

Steve you're right Korn is really high quality and could represent Thailand superbly well at the highest level.He needs however to be a little careful to project that he is a man for all Thai people, not just Bangkok sophisticates.Even his close friends agree those Facebook musings "only the wealthy can understand moral issues etc" were ill judged.There's general agreement he's morally clean wealthy,smart and well educated but he needs to develop a broader political base if he is to escape the technocrat straitjacket and transcend that Bangkok upper middle class world.In a sentence he needs to take a leaf out of other posh boys like Boris Johnson or David Cameron.I'm not suggesting he hug a hoodie or two ( but presumably there's a Thai equivalent).Seriously he doesn't have to pretend to be what he isn't but he needs to get out a bit more.

These are minor criticisms.He's done a fantastic job as Finance Minister and time is on his side.

agree 100%; hence my comment 'real democracy' as long as we are in the middle ground of needing that massive upcountry support of the voting blocks as exists now, he is stuck in the same position as a similar (but IMHO much worse technocrat type) guy before him Somkid. Somkid was quite popular for a while with the business community, but was a bit of a laughing stock upcountry where it was considered funny that he spoke Thai not that well just like a 'jek Sampaeng' and that was partly the reason why he was never suited to stepping in as a leader when Thaksin announced he was retiring in early 2006.

He needs to watch himself, as you say. I don't think we'll ever see the tolerance for an Anand style posting to PM again (and I hope not, despite the success of it relative to the elected officials preceding and following) because it should not occur in a democracy. His only route to the lead role now is basically to hope that a viable rural party that captures the real underlying needs of the farmers appears and then can combine with a city/business minded party; I don't see that the gulf is so narrow he can acheive both. Only someone with very deep pockets to buy off the support of the jao pors can straddle both; I don't think he is willing to treat politics as an investment in an election to then get a payoff afterwards as Thaksin did; he's actually one of the good guys.

I hope!

[OzMick]

In short: you only care about your self. Whether other people suffer severe inconveniences or business losses is not your problem.

Seems you don't understand what I'm saying. A small minority are suffering some inconveniences, some have some losses in their businesses and many others now cope with the situation and make a killing. Some choose to regard their lifes as miserable because of these temporary inconveniences and some don't choose to do that. You only seem to care for those few people who feel miserable and I look at the bigger picture and see more people choosing to cope with the situation and not having made their life miserable.

In that small minority would you include those whose bus services have been cancelled because they pass through occupied territory? Do you really think those people can afford to take a day or 3 off work?

What do you expect your neighbours to do, grin and bear it, or grab a broom and run outside to take on thousands of idiots?

[ozzieman05]

Take notice please moderator

My post has been rewritten by tuktukstuey, a red shirt stand in I bet, adding his own words

(but the crime & drugs rates has gone sky high since thaskin gone!! he had good points & bad!!)

Not my words, but included to look like they where

This is against TV rules

as this is only his 2d post I guest he doesn't care he will just re register

At least one thing someone must be worried if they go to the trouble to discredit

[Sunderland]

He said he could not understand why the red shirts seemed inclined to attack the yellow shirts - who were not in a position of power.

The red shirts had no justification in faulting the yellow shirts, he said.

For example, the yellow shirts were not responsible for the closure of Suvarnabhumi Airport in 2008, he claimed, arguing that the shut-down was ordered by airport manager Serirat Prasutanont, who is a relative of red-shirt leader Veera.

I thought April Fool's Day was last week ...

[OzMick]

I actually went to the effort of finding out the financial effect on just 1 business who closed yesterday. Major at Paragon alone are losing approx 5 million baht a day in lost ticket sales which will never be recovered because seats in a movie are a limited time constrained resource.

I am sure those of you who feel that the road closure is justified have your reasons.

But please stop trying to persuade owners and share holders of Major, etc that this closure has no real effect on people's lives.

It has and it does.

Not to mention the employees and suppliers and their employees,

all part of the chain of human support a large company provides.

That chain of support goes to people of all classes and all parts of the country,

even something as simple as a theaters candy counter closing means some drivers

won't be needed to deliver. What are the chances that driver is from issan?

Pretty darned good, but he won't be working this week, because nothing was sold,

and so he has no delivery to make.

Maybe his company gives paid day off or just lets him hang at the depot on the clock,

maybe it's; sorry no pay today.

No large business is a vacuum unto itself.

Thousands of Issan people are being put out by this fraction of their neighbors acting out.

If the delivery driver is from Issan, he's probably takng time off to join the protest....

Actually, I have been going down to Central Chitlom to pick up my niece after work as she works as a sales girl in the store. We walk down to the main protest site and spend an hour with the protestors. Many people working in the area do the same when the cooler evening weather makes it less uncomfortable. They are all behind the red shirts and support the aims of the democracy movement. I detect a sea-change from the first days of protest, however. The mood is one of imminent victory, that the government cannot hold out much longer. They do expect the army to instigate the first moves, but against Abhisit and not against the red shirts. I hope their optimism is well-founded because their are so many ordinary folk within the crowd - old people, young children, workers coming in after a day's work. If the army does crackdown it will be the slaughter of the innocents.

And another point, my niece says that many of the staff employed in Paragon, Central World etc. have been moved to other department stores in the suburbs, so they're not actually suffering loss of pay.

Undoubtedly some of the big stores are losing money by being closed, but most of it is being offset by higher trading at other branches in the 'burbs.

this would have to qualify as being delusional!

[ozterix]

They are taxed when they purchase their stock. That's how VAT works. The supplier charges them.

GK

maybe you understand how VAT works but you don't seem to be living here... most of the time when you want to purchase good, whether you are in a shop, a bar or a mall, even camera shop etc... you can not get an invoice because none of these guys declare their sales. If you specifically request an invoice because you run a business and want to get VAT back and tax deduction, they ask you to pay additional 7 % for the VAT they will suddenly have to declare... I know if is weird but here you can have a shop and declare just about no sales and nobody seems to be questioning it

[CLOD]

I can understand why the dems MP's are so angry with abisit over this.

After all, this peaceful demonstration has been going on a long time now, and its eatin em up inside.

They are so upset that abisit hasn't sent in the blue shirt mob yet which worked so well in instigating the violence at Pattaya and Sonkran last year.

They are wondering why abisit is reluctant to send in his blue shirt mob to cause the trouble like they did last time,so they can send in the army to kick sh*t out of the peaceful reds (thats Rural Electoral Democracy Supporters).

Has Abhisit got any connection to the blue shirt mob? Isn't that Newin's group?

Are you just making things up again?

Partners in crime.

making things up?

How the military junta have trashed electoral democracy.....you couldn't make it up!

[CLOD]

I can understand why the dems MP's are so angry with abisit over this.

After all, this peaceful demonstration has been going on a long time now, and its eatin em up inside.

They are so upset that abisit hasn't sent in the blue shirt mob yet which worked so well in instigating the violence at Pattaya and Sonkran last year.

They are wondering why abisit is reluctant to send in his blue shirt mob to cause the trouble like they did last time,so they can send in the army to kick sh*t out of the peaceful reds (thats Rural Electoral Democracy Supporters).

play_w2("C0413700")CLOD (kld) n. 1. A dull, stupid person; a dolt.[Middle English, variant of clot, lump; see clot.]hm()

Sorry I got there before you, but you could have gone CLOD1,

Anyway since you are in the dictionary how about doing some of your pals a favour and looking up the definitions of

Military Junta coup

Military Junta "coup-issued law"

Military Junta appointed judiciary,

they are struggling to explain how they sit in a democracy

[animatic]

I can understand why the dems MP's are so angry with abisit over this.

After all, this peaceful demonstration has been going on a long time now, and its eatin em up inside.

They are so upset that abisit hasn't sent in the blue shirt mob yet which worked so well in instigating the violence at Pattaya and Sonkran last year.

They are wondering why abisit is reluctant to send in his blue shirt mob to cause the trouble like they did last time,so they can send in the army to kick sh*t out of the peaceful reds (thats Rural Electoral Democracy Supporters).

play_w2("C0413700")CLOD (kld) n. 1. A dull, stupid person; a dolt.[Middle English, variant of clot, lump; see clot.]hm()

Sorry I got there before you, but you could have gone CLOD1,

Anyway since you are in the dictionary how about doing some of your pals a favour and looking up the definitions of

Military Junta coup

Military Junta "coup-issued law"

Military Junta appointed judiciary,

they are struggling to explain how they sit in a democracy

Stop living in the past to justify myopia in the present.

[mauiguy90]

The blocking of the interesection is not shutting down any business.... it is the owners of the places who have shut them down of their own free will.

Many have accused the redshirts of shutting down the shopping center but as Levelhead pointed out so clearly, the owners shut the major shopping centers down of their own choosing. There are businesses that are still open and are frankly getting customers because other places are shut down.

Edited April 6, 2010 by mauiguy90

[anotherpeter]

The blocking of the interesection is not shutting down any business.... it is the owners of the places who have shut them down of their own free will.

Many have accused the redshirts of shutting down the shopping center but as Levelhead pointed out so clearly, the owners shut the major shopping centers down of their own choosing. There are businesses that are still open and are frankly getting customers because other places are shut down.

The Yellow supporters always point out that the yellows didn't shut down the airport, but the airport management did. The red supporters say the airport management had no choice, so it was the yellows that caused it.

You can't have it both ways.

[Thai at Heart]

The blocking of the interesection is not shutting down any business.... it is the owners of the places who have shut them down of their own free will.

Many have accused the redshirts of shutting down the shopping center but as Levelhead pointed out so clearly, the owners shut the major shopping centers down of their own choosing. There are businesses that are still open and are frankly getting customers because other places are shut down.

The Yellow supporters always point out that the yellows didn't shut down the airport, but the airport management did. The red supporters say the airport management had no choice, so it was the yellows that caused it.

You can't have it both ways.

Safety issues would dictate that the airport had to be closed. People had broken into the control tower for gods sake. I would say that management of the large shopping centres have probably been quite responsible with closing. I would imagine the protesters would have started camping inside.

[animatic]

It appears Abhisit as deemed there is enough public disgust gained/ aimed at the red side,

and enough backing opprobrium accumulated on the Gov. side, to make a move.

He has tried to 'let the sleeping dog lie',

and tried to entice the leaders with reasonable concessions,

and shown a truly tolerant side under extreme provocations.

But the camel's back is broken and no strawman comments will turn this back.

Abhisit is about to show he 'had a pair' all along,

but was giving the Reds all the possible time to be agreeable,

or screw up.

They picked the later, som nom na I guess.

Too sad for the conned red rank and file, I hope injuries are kept to a minimum.

Edited April 6, 2010 by animatic

[mauiguy90]

The blocking of the interesection is not shutting down any business.... it is the owners of the places who have shut them down of their own free will.

Many have accused the redshirts of shutting down the shopping center but as Levelhead pointed out so clearly, the owners shut the major shopping centers down of their own choosing. There are businesses that are still open and are frankly getting customers because other places are shut down.

The Yellow supporters always point out that the yellows didn't shut down the airport, but the airport management did. The red supporters say the airport management had no choice, so it was the yellows that caused it.

You can't have it both ways.

Interesting that you parallel the two situations. Apparently govt is not handling the situation in the same way as they did with the yellow shirts occupying the airport. I wonder why...

Its about to get very messy at Rachaprasong intersection!

...if the yellow shirts were protesting there, what would happen?

Put another way, did the govt force the yellow shirts out of the airport?

Edited April 6, 2010 by mauiguy90

[animatic]

The blocking of the interesection is not shutting down any business.... it is the owners of the places who have shut them down of their own free will.

Many have accused the redshirts of shutting down the shopping center but as Levelhead pointed out so clearly, the owners shut the major shopping centers down of their own choosing. There are businesses that are still open and are frankly getting customers because other places are shut down.

The Yellow supporters always point out that the yellows didn't shut down the airport, but the airport management did. The red supporters say the airport management had no choice, so it was the yellows that caused it.

You can't have it both ways.

...

Put another way, did the govt force the yellow shirts out of the airport?

No they didn't.

But one must remember the Dems to not have the same image problem with ALL

that Somchai's government had after the Oct 7th cock-up.

Abhisit has seemed most accommodating and reasonable.

Somchai seemed belligerent and ill advised in the extreme.

And then tried excessive violence which grossly backfired.

So PR situationally it is Apples and Oranges.

Regardless of the spin the reds will try, the tide of public awareness has turned against them.

While the tide of public awareness was not backing Somchai being too forceful at Suvarnabhumi,

it now has backed Abhisit showing that the law can act to correct an adverse situation.

[khunjamespittman]

Today Gordon Brown PM of UK announced he is disolving Parliment and will hold an election on May 6, 2010 ( 1 Month from today).

Wouldn't it be a nice gesture in Abhisit demonstrated that he can run his government as good as Gordon Brown and disolve Parliment and schedule an election onf the same day as the UK. Surely he must concede if the UK can do it so then can Thailand. Both he an Gordon Brown were educated in the UK.

[johndpoole]

Today Gordon Brown PM of UK announced he is disolving Parliment and will hold an election on May 6, 2010 ( 1 Month from today).

Not good enough, it needs to be 15 days or the city will burn.

[khunjamespittman]

Today Gordon Brown PM of UK announced he is disolving Parliment and will hold an election on May 6, 2010 ( 1 Month from today).

Not good enough, it needs to be 15 days or the city will burn.

Might I inquire as to you are speaking for? I didn't see the offer being made yet.

[animatic]

Today Gordon Brown PM of UK announced he is disolving Parliment and will hold an election on May 6, 2010 ( 1 Month from today).

Not good enough, it needs to be 15 days or the city will burn.

Might I inquire as to you are speaking for? I didn't see the offer being made yet.

Well CNN has nothing about Brown calling an election.

Maybe they are waiting to he actually DOES it before announcing he has...

Edited April 6, 2010 by animatic

[johndpoole]

Today Gordon Brown PM of UK announced he is disolving Parliment and will hold an election on May 6, 2010 ( 1 Month from today).

Not good enough, it needs to be 15 days or the city will burn.

Might I inquire as to you are speaking for? I didn't see the offer being made yet.

Well CNN has nothing about Brown calling an election.

Maybe they are waiting to he actually DOES it before announcing he has...

Completely different set of circumstances going on here.

Edited April 6, 2010 by johndpoole

[samtam]

Gordon Brown doesn't dissolve parliament. He asks The Queen to dissolve parliament. There's a very significant difference.

[johndpoole]

Gordon Brown doesn't dissolve parliament. He asks The Queen to dissolve parliament. There's a very significant difference.

He is also not bowing to unruly mobs roaming the streets ... he is doing it because parliament has become ineffective being equally divided. This subject has no replace in this topic. Completely different set of circumstances and reasons behind that decision compared to what this thread is about.

[johndpoole]

Jatuporn plays Abhisits' doctored audio clip to incite protesters. The clip was well proven to be doctored last year to make it sound as if Abhisit ordered troops to crack down on the protesters during last Songkran.

Shame on all of you who are supporting these lunatics leading their people to a slaughter.

[animatic]

THE NATION: Natthawut recruited 5,000 volunteers to force troops to leave the area.

The volunteers now head to Lumpini Park to confront troops there.

So do we see the Lumpini Park Riots of 2010 as a historical benchmark?

Lets hope not, but getting volunteers is ominous sounding...

Read : All the craziest itching for a fight.

Edited April 6, 2010 by animatic

[anotherpeter]

The blocking of the interesection is not shutting down any business.... it is the owners of the places who have shut them down of their own free will.

Many have accused the redshirts of shutting down the shopping center but as Levelhead pointed out so clearly, the owners shut the major shopping centers down of their own choosing. There are businesses that are still open and are frankly getting customers because other places are shut down.

The Yellow supporters always point out that the yellows didn't shut down the airport, but the airport management did. The red supporters say the airport management had no choice, so it was the yellows that caused it.

You can't have it both ways.

Safety issues would dictate that the airport had to be closed. People had broken into the control tower for gods sake. I would say that management of the large shopping centres have probably been quite responsible with closing. I would imagine the protesters would have started camping inside.

I agree.

The airport management had no choice but to close. The yellows caused that.

Similarly, the shopping centre management need to close the centres. The reds caused that.