Rote Learning

[guig]

Thanks Mark for the start of an interesting topic. I have recently had some personal experience in this area which I can share with the readers at Thai Visa.

My wife and I have invited three of her brother’s and sister’s children aged 12,13,14 years to spend the 2 month Thai Summer break with us here in Sydney. My plan was to put them into a good English Language school and supplement their learning with some of our own home grown teaching techniques.

The same issues you mentioned in your thread, we also came up against. That was the ingrained rote style learning, copying from each other, trying to memorize answers for next time and a general lazy approach to active learning. My wife had to crack them hard asking them to think and not to try and guess and be silly all the time.

Finally after 4 weeks I withdrew them from the school and took it upon myself to teach them. We started with the basic instruction that they needed to remember or come up with 5 new words every day and write those into a sentence for me to read and correct. As time went on I would ask them questions based on the new words and try to develop creative thinking around those new words.

I lot of time was also spent on speaking and asking them questions so they could think about the answers and make decisions based on their experiences not so much their memory and translating skills.

A funny example was I decided to send them out to buy a hot roast chicken at Woolworths. As it was Easter Sunday it was closed so instead of going to the next closest chicken shop they went in the opposite direction to find a Woolworth’s store that was open. Once again no creative thinking only copy and remember from before.

Now we have sent them back early as they weren’t really active with their speaking and learning, however they did everything that was asked of them. There are many factors involved which will either enhance their English or impede it and they are:

1. Family background- harder for kids with parents (mummy) that does everything for them requiring them not to think.

2. Coming alone and not with other Thai speaking students helps the process.

3. Asking them questions so they learn to say no and I don’t understand until they get it.

4. Give them tasks to perform like buying train tickets, ordering food and general daily activities so they have to speak and interact.

5. Where they live and how exposed they have been to other cultures, the city and even western food, culture etc…….

I believe they did gain some benefit but next time I would take them one at a time and also when they are more mature and ready for some serious learning.

[phetaroi]

Thanks for your post - you nailed it.

"reinventing the wheel" is a very important learning process - it seems to only happen in selected schools here, or Thai pick it up when they study overseas. It is certainly something that cannot be picked up readily - I saw last week how much my M5 struggled with some open ended maths questions I designed for M3!! I think I have to rethink giving those to M3..

Rote learning is also much easier than having to think out a problem and come up with a creative solution. There is a lot more "risk" involved, but it's something that should be developed here it Thailand is to move ahead.

Actually, I like the summary you implied:

Thinking curriculum = creating the wheel

Rote learning curriculum = recreating the wheel

[phetaroi]

So I’ve got it straight, rote learning means repeating something till you have memorized it? A teacher saying a word and having students repeat it would be rote learning. Where as a teacher asking a student, “where is the bathroom?” would involve understanding and application?

Forgive me but it doesn’t seem like a giant step to teach a child a word and then act out how to use that word. Don’t Thai teachers ever do this?

Mmmmmm...not quite. I've done question/answer sessions in a few Thai schools so students could practice their English. The questions were almost always the same...apparently from a standard book: "Do you like Thailand?" "Do you like pizza?" "What is your name?" Parroting of sentences.

Let me give you this example. I am taking Thai language lessons now. At first I progressed rather quickly...learning basic vocabulary, counting, etc. Rote learning.

Things have now slowed down. I'm putting sentences together with that vocabulary.

First it was just basic repetition. Now it's having to think...what are the words, what order do I have to put them in...how do I make it present, past, or future tense...etc.

[elkangorito]

From the OP:

Why then is there such a clamor about rote learning in Thailand. What’s wrong with it? It is after all how learning is accomplished in the west.

I believe that your above statement is somewhat skewed.

With regard to western education, rote learning has a necessary place as it does in all teaching but it is not the main and continuous method used.

With regard to Thai education, rote learning appears to be the main and continuous method used.

Look at it from a Thai point of view:

Requirement: students must learn English.

Goal: all students pass English tests to required MOE levels.

Again from a Thai point of view, lets look at the methods used to achieve the goal. Please note that the 'goal' is not for the students to speak English.

1] Use a testing method that is geared to a teaching method. i.e. Testing method - multiple choice. Teaching method - memorisation.

2] Students will not fail. They will be re-tested until they pass. 'Re-testing' may use entirely different test papers/methods as compared to the original (first) test.

Let's look at 'why' the above methods are favourable in Thailand:

1] Multiple choice papers require far less time to mark.

This is complete & utter laziness, & indicates that teachers or government bodies who endorse this testing method, are not concerned about the education of their students.

2] For statistical purposes, having an almost non-existent failure rate can have fantastic benefits for some 'elite' people. Also, some other countries etc may be fooled into believing that Thai students are great at English (see point 3 below).

3] 'Appearence' means everything in Thailand...'reality' is far too problematic. Everybody must fit into their 'classification', which usually boils down to two...subordinate & superior.

4] 'Sanook' is also very important. How can one have time to go to 27 restuarants, 12 Wats & various school 'junkets' each week if one has to spend so much time 'teaching'?

5] There is no requirement for the students to be 'orally' tested.

This is complete & utter laziness, & indicates that teachers or government bodies who endorse this testing method, are not concerned about the education of their students.

6] The rote method as the sole method of teaching, requires less planning & student interaction is virtually non-existent.

Being embarrassed in Thailand is called 'Loss of face' & can have severe consequences upon the one who causes 'loss of face'. Since both the students & teachers are aware of this 'cultural rule', neither party will question each other. The key operator here is 'fear'.

Further comments.

Thai Culture is a part of the Thai education system. It is hammered into the masses daily. It is my belief that the Thai education system is modelled to suit the 'cultural rules'.

Thai Culture also seems to be taught 'by rote'. How interesting!

2 weeks ago, a Thai work colleague asked me to proof read an abstract of a study. The study was about the effect a certain Buddhist principle upon a selection of Thai students. The 2 main words that leapt off the page were 'discipline' & 'moral'. This paper was from somebody partaking in some sort of course for the education system.

Conclusion.

If teaching by rote is the primary method used, as it appears to be in Thailand, 'change' will be incredibly slow. The whole 'rote' system seems to stem from the indoctrinated culure & as such, culture needs to play a less significant role in society. Of course, there will be HUGE resistance to any prospective amendments of the cultural rules. The resistance will come from those who hold the most power.

A comment from the original poster:

Forgive me but it doesn’t seem like a giant step to teach a child a word and then act out how to use that word. Don’t Thai teachers ever do this?

Thai teachers tend to sit whilst teaching. They also use a microphone & amp. Actually, most of them seem quite bored. To me, this is laziness.

On the other hand, I rarely sit...I spend most of the time walking around the classroom & I perform lots of 'acting out' things. I never use an amplifier.

Edited April 10, 2010 by elkangorito

[phetaroi]

With regard to western education, rote learning has a necessary place as it does in all teaching but it is not the main and continuous method used.

With regard to Thai education, rote learning appears to be the main and continuous method used.

...

Again from a Thai point of view, lets look at the methods used to achieve the goal. Please note that the 'goal' is not for the students to speak English.

1] Use a testing method that is geared to a teaching method. i.e. Testing method - multiple choice. Teaching method - memorisation.

2] Students will not fail. They will be re-tested until they pass. 'Re-testing' may use entirely different test papers/methods as compared to the original (first) test.

...

1] Multiple choice papers require far less time to mark.

This is complete & utter laziness, & indicates that teachers or government bodies who endorse this testing method, are not concerned about the education of their students.

2] For statistical purposes, having an almost non-existent failure rate can have fantastic benefits for some 'elite' people. Also, some other countries etc may be fooled into believing that Thai students are great at English (see point 3 below).

...

5] There is no requirement for the students to be 'orally' tested.

This is complete & utter laziness, & indicates that teachers or government bodies who endorse this testing method, are not concerned about the education of their students.

6] The rote method as the sole method of teaching, requires less planning & student interaction is virtually non-existent.

Being embarrassed in Thailand is called 'Loss of face' & can have severe consequences upon the one who causes 'loss of face'. Since both the students & teachers are aware of this 'cultural rule', neither party will question each other. The key operator here is 'fear'.

...

Thai Culture is a part of the Thai education system. It is hammered into the masses daily. It is my belief that the Thai education system is modelled to suit the 'cultural rules'.

Thai Culture also seems to be taught 'by rote'. How interesting!

2 weeks ago, a Thai work colleague asked me to proof read an abstract of a study. The study was about the effect a certain Buddhist principle upon a selection of Thai students. The 2 main words that leapt off the page were 'discipline' & 'moral'. This paper was from somebody partaking in some sort of course for the education system.

...

If teaching by rote is the primary method used, as it appears to be in Thailand, 'change' will be incredibly slow. The whole 'rote' system seems to stem from the indoctrinated culure & as such, culture needs to play a less significant role in society. Of course, there will be HUGE resistance to any prospective amendments of the cultural rules. The resistance will come from those who hold the most power.

Thai teachers tend to sit whilst teaching. They also use a microphone & amp. Actually, most of them seem quite bored. To me, this is laziness.

On the other hand, I rarely sit...I spend most of the time walking around the classroom & I perform lots of 'acting out' things. I never use an amplifier.

I would tend to disagree with some of your points.

You seem to imply that in the West rote learning is not very common. It's been a painfully show evolution. THrough the 1950s, rote learning in American schools was significant, if not dominant. You learned the alphabet, handwriting, the 50 states, major government leaders, Constitutional amendments, the battles of the Civil War, a great deal of arithmetic, etc. through rote learning. When I was in the 9th grade in 1963 I was in a program to make learning earth science more scientific in nature (it was the ESCP...Earth Science Curriculum Project). The idea was that instead of listening to lectures or doing what I call "cook book labs", for each concept the students would be asked to spend one class period brain-storming the issue to come up with the way to solve some statement. The next class period would be spent gathering the equipment and materials the students needed to conduct their experiment. Another day's class would be spent debriefing the experience, and then maybe you could move on to the next concept. Well, great science...but it reduced the amount of content that could be taught by at least half. Today in science education in America (and, I was a science teacher, and then as an administrator I observed and evaluated dozens of science teachers) it's gotten very much away from rote learning, but is still stuck on cook book experimentation (here students is your purpose, your materials, step by step procedures, and then the students come out with a predetermined result...not very experimental at all, although a really good teacher can do a heck of a good post-lab discussion that can be very stimulating). That evolution from rote learning to experiential learning too maybe 30-40 years in the U.S. How many years behind the first world are third world schools?

You also seem to imply that multiple choice is used in Thailand, and that's why it isn't very effective teaching and testing. What is the number 1 method of testing in the US? Multiple choice. I hate that it's true, but it simply is. And, since schools can now afford Scantron testing materials and grading machines for everyday use, if anything it has gotten worse.

I don't have a problem retesting a child IF there has been some reteaching/relearning experience in between.

Having a "non-existent failure rate" is not just a Thai thing. It's becoming more and more common in America.

Oral testing is needed. I agree. When and where it is done in the States it is a bane to most teachers, and many (if not most) only do it if they are forced to do it. This was certainly true in my school system's foreign language program. Finally the system took over devising the tests and how the results were to be evaluated and teachers were required to submit all student results to the central administration...so teachers could not get around it. And, just for the record, this was one of the most highly respected public school systems in the US.

Are you saying that national culture should not be a part of schooling??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Is there any nation in the world where national culture is not a part of schooling????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Are you saying that discipline and morality are not values to be taught?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

You said, "culture needs to play a less significant role in society. Of course, there will be HUGE resistance to any prospective amendments of the cultural rules. The resistance will come from those who hold the most power."

Hmmmmmmmmmm. Culture is what makes Thailand Thailand. Australia Australia. America America. You appear to want a cultureless culture. You may be right that resistance to change in Thailand comes mostly from those who hold power. That is not true in America. Whether the issue is abortion, the teaching of evolution, teaching styles, or a host of other things in America, it is the lower middle class who resist most change. The supporters of people like Sarah Palin.

Don't get me wrong...I enjoy the debate with you!

[elkangorito]

My comments in blue.

Hi Phetaroi. I'm glad you enjoy debating. I fear it's slowly becoming one of those 'off limits' things like sex, politics & religion. It's particularly enjoyable when people can remove emotion from themselves but 'act out' an otherwise emotive point of view.

I digressed so back to your points.

I would tend to disagree with some of your points.

You seem to imply that in the West rote learning is not very common. It's been a painfully show evolution. THrough the 1950s, rote learning in American schools was significant, if not dominant. You learned the alphabet, handwriting, the 50 states, major government leaders, Constitutional amendments, the battles of the Civil War, a great deal of arithmetic, etc. through rote learning. When I was in the 9th grade in 1963 I was in a program to make learning earth science more scientific in nature (it was the ESCP...Earth Science Curriculum Project). The idea was that instead of listening to lectures or doing what I call "cook book labs", for each concept the students would be asked to spend one class period brain-storming the issue to come up with the way to solve some statement. The next class period would be spent gathering the equipment and materials the students needed to conduct their experiment. Another day's class would be spent debriefing the experience, and then maybe you could move on to the next concept. Well, great science...but it reduced the amount of content that could be taught by at least half. Today in science education in America (and, I was a science teacher, and then as an administrator I observed and evaluated dozens of science teachers) it's gotten very much away from rote learning, but is still stuck on cook book experimentation (here students is your purpose, your materials, step by step procedures, and then the students come out with a predetermined result...not very experimental at all, although a really good teacher can do a heck of a good post-lab discussion that can be very stimulating). That evolution from rote learning to experiential learning too maybe 30-40 years in the U.S. How many years behind the first world are third world schools?

I must emphasize that I only speak of the 'present', however, I do acknowledge & agree that rote learning played a signifcant & necessary role in years gone by (in western education) & still does play a significant role.

I distinctly remember my years in Infants School (K1 to year 2) where rote learning was predominant.

Upon entering Primary School (years 3 to 6), rote learning was no longer predominant. What did happen was the 'deconstruction' of what we were taught so that we could understand how things existed (e.g. what makes the 'times tables' true etc).

I will maintain my current belief that rote learning in western education is not the main and continuous method used. I emphasize the word 'and' in the previous sentence.

You also seem to imply that multiple choice is used in Thailand, and that's why it isn't very effective teaching and testing. What is the number 1 method of testing in the US? Multiple choice. I hate that it's true, but it simply is. And, since schools can now afford Scantron testing materials and grading machines for everyday use, if anything it has gotten worse.

I assume that you agree with me on this point.

Also, I never saw a 'multiple guess' exam until I entered High School (years 7 to 12) in the mid 70's. Even then, it wasn't 100% multi-guess...it was mostly 'show working'. This exam was for the year 10 'School Certificate' (aka Leaving Certificate).

Every other important exam for every other subject was always 'show working' or 'explain in your own words'.

It's sad that education has fallen victim to 'bean counters', although 'bean counters' are very necessary. The problem arises when everything/anything becomes totally dollar driven.

Engineering is a good example. An engineering company that allows itself to be totally controlled by accountants will not have a long existence. There simply comes a time when there are no more corners left to cut without severely damaging the quality of an outcome. At this point in time, 'bean counters' are forced to listen to engineers & then realise that their 'cost cutting' has cost the company more than twice the amount they were trying to save for the company in the first place.

Notwithstanding this, multi-guess exams do have their place if used correctly. It is apparent & real that Thailand places far too much weight on this type of exam method.

When I first came to Thailand, I taught at a school in BKK (Matayom). As well as teaching the usual English classes, I taught Mathematics to M2...in English. For the end-of-term exam, I did two things;

1] Created a list of 'Examination Rules & Techniques' & issued this list one month prior to the exam. No problems from Thai teachers about this.

2] My exam was not multi-guess. I required all working to be shown. The Thai teachers had a major problem with this.

I gave the students a practice exam & they didn't do very well. Nonetheless, the final exam results were a little bit better.

Why did the Thai teachers get upset over my exam? Well, they wanted multi-guess. I asked them why they wanted multi-guess & I initially got some weird responses...things like 'We don't do that here', 'This is not how things are done in Thailand', 'We don't want you to get too tired'. This last comment was the indicator. 'We don't want you to get too tired' meant that if I did things my way, it would set a precedence of 'show working' exams for mathematics students (English only).

Later, one of the Thai teachers confided in me & told me that my idea was great but other teachers felt threatened as they may be required to spend more time marking exams in the future.

I can understand their fear as it took me about 6 hours to mark the papers...each paper was 4 pages, a total of 50 students. That's allowing about 10 minutes per paper if I didn't have to do any major correcting. Some papers took about 2 minutes to mark.

I don't have a problem retesting a child IF there has been some reteaching/relearning experience in between.

Having a "non-existent failure rate" is not just a Thai thing. It's becoming more and more common in America.

The last time I attended engineering college back in the 90's (in Australia), there was no such thing as 'can't fail'.

I guess that time will tell what will happen if certain countries adopt this 'no fail' attitude.

Oral testing is needed. I agree. When and where it is done in the States it is a bane to most teachers, and many (if not most) only do it if they are forced to do it. This was certainly true in my school system's foreign language program. Finally the system took over devising the tests and how the results were to be evaluated and teachers were required to submit all student results to the central administration...so teachers could not get around it. And, just for the record, this was one of the most highly respected public school systems in the US.

There are two foreign teachers at my place of work...myself & a Filipina (she is excellent). Both of us are required to conduct oral tests with students. Both of us have about 600 students each. Yes, it is a pain in the bum but it must be done & as such, both of us do it in a happy way. The strange thing is that the Thai teachers (only some of them) are seeing the benefit in this slower approach. As a result, they are mimicking our requirement for correct pronunciation & are slowly implementing this into their lessons. I guess mimicry is the greatest form of flattery after all

Are you saying that national culture should not be a part of schooling??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Is there any nation in the world where national culture is not a part of schooling????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Are you saying that discipline and morality are not values to be taught?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

You said, "culture needs to play a less significant role in society. Of course, there will be HUGE resistance to any prospective amendments of the cultural rules. The resistance will come from those who hold the most power."

Hmmmmmmmmmm. Culture is what makes Thailand Thailand. Australia Australia. America America. You appear to want a cultureless culture. You may be right that resistance to change in Thailand comes mostly from those who hold power. That is not true in America. Whether the issue is abortion, the teaching of evolution, teaching styles, or a host of other things in America, it is the lower middle class who resist most change. The supporters of people like Sarah Palin.

Don't get me wrong...I enjoy the debate with you!

I appear to have failed to clearly communicate my meaning here.

As far as I know, nowhere in the Australian or the American education system, things like 'Australians behave in such & such a way' or 'All Americans love god' exist. Please correct me if I am wrong.

These things disappeared from Australian education a long time ago. They still exist in the Thai education whether it is truly part of the Thai education system or not (individuals deciding to do this).

I remember having 'compulsory' scripture classes (Christian) in Primary School...this has since been abolished.

Where culture forms the 'rules' of a society, it is no longer culture...it is indoctrination.

In Thailand, 'culture' is by indoctrination. 'Free will' or 'free choice' has little say. To witness this, simply attend any morning assembly at any school. Someone waffles on incessantly for quite a while but about what? Is there that much 'news' to talk about? No, there isn't but someone can waffle on about 'Thainess' until the cows come home...& they will score lots of brownie points for doing so.

Quite often, these morning 'indoctrination sessions' (assemblies) incorporate things about Buddhism. So much for the non-Buddhist students.

And there is no need to mention the 'don't ask questions' policy in classrooms, which is a part of the 'culture'.

To me, 'culture' is about customs & memories, which do not become 'rules'. They are pleasant things to be enjoyed by everybody. When it becomes part of 'rules', people become robots & fear reprisal from every quarter (rule by guilt...ego). "Loss of face' is the worst part of this kind of control mechanism.

The same goes for discipline & morality...these things need not be a formal part of any curriculum as they are inherent in every society all over the world. One doesn't need to be taught these things...one simply needs exposure to these things & then individual choices can be made, hopefully without fear being an overriding factor.

I think the word 'culture' could be easily replaced with the word 'repression' in Thailand.

Overall, I still maintain that education in Thailand (amongst other things, like 'democracy') will always be 'behind the 8 ball' until such a time that culture becomes truly a 'culture' & not an excuse to control the masses.

Not on topic but as a further note, I reckon that the teaching of English in Thailand is far too fast. A slower approach is needed. I have also suggested to my Thai colleagues that English be a mandatory subject from kindergarten up to the end of M2. From M3 onwards, English could be an elective subject.

A response to these suggestions has not happened since it was only last week that I spoke of these things.

Let's face it, indoctrination of any kind requires rote learning to be the principle method of 'programming' (education).

Edited April 12, 2010 by elkangorito

[Unfaithful]

Agree with el kangotito.phetaroj does not understand Thai culture,

Edited April 12, 2010 by Unfaithful

[Scott]

I don't know of any functional country in which the primary vehicle of instilling the cultural values isn't done through the schools and the education system.

[elkangorito]

Scott. Haven't you heard of the following old joke:

A: What's the difference between an Australian & yoghurt?

B: I dunno!

A: The yoghurt has a culture.

I can guarantee you that Australia does not use the education system to 'instill' any cultural, religious or political values upon any individual. This only applies to Public Education in Australia.

Just what are 'cultural values' anyway?

A late edit: Australian Public Education still uses rote learning but only in the formative years. It decreases as students progress through the system.

Edited April 12, 2010 by elkangorito

[phetaroi]

I appear to have failed to clearly communicate my meaning here.

As far as I know, nowhere in the Australian or the American education system, things like 'Australians behave in such & such a way' or 'All Americans love god' exist. Please correct me if I am wrong. These things disappeared from Australian education a long time ago. They still exist in the Thai education whether it is truly part of the Thai education system or not (individuals deciding to do this). I remember having 'compulsory' scripture classes (Christian) in Primary School...this has since been abolished.

Where culture forms the 'rules' of a society, it is no longer culture...it is indoctrination.

In Thailand, 'culture' is by indoctrination. 'Free will' or 'free choice' has little say. To witness this, simply attend any morning assembly at any school. Someone waffles on incessantly for quite a while but about what? Is there that much 'news' to talk about? No, there isn't but someone can waffle on about 'Thainess' until the cows come home...& they will score lots of brownie points for doing so.

Quite often, these morning 'indoctrination sessions' (assemblies) incorporate things about Buddhism. So much for the non-Buddhist students.

And there is no need to mention the 'don't ask questions' policy in classrooms, which is a part of the 'culture'.

To me, 'culture' is about customs & memories, which do not become 'rules'. They are pleasant things to be enjoyed by everybody. When it becomes part of 'rules', people become robots & fear reprisal from every quarter (rule by guilt...ego). "Loss of face' is the worst part of this kind of control mechanism.

The same goes for discipline & morality...these things need not be a formal part of any curriculum as they are inherent in every society all over the world. One doesn't need to be taught these things...one simply needs exposure to these things & then individual choices can be made, hopefully without fear being an overriding factor.

I think the word 'culture' could be easily replaced with the word 'repression' in Thailand.

Overall, I still maintain that education in Thailand (amongst other things, like 'democracy') will always be 'behind the 8 ball' until such a time that culture becomes truly a 'culture' & not an excuse to control the masses.

Not on topic but as a further note, I reckon that the teaching of English in Thailand is far too fast. A slower approach is needed. I have also suggested to my Thai colleagues that English be a mandatory subject from kindergarten up to the end of M2. From M3 onwards, English could be an elective subject.

A response to these suggestions has not happened since it was only last week that I spoke of these things.

Let's face it, indoctrination of any kind requires rote learning to be the principle method of 'programming' (education).[/color]

Thanks for responding, and while you may have failed to communicate some thoughts well, it is just as likely that I failed to interpret what your wrote very well.

Of course, I can't speak for Australia, but let me say a few things about American schools. Let me preface my comments by saying I was a school administrator in Virginia...a state which lately can't quite decide if it's red or blue, and that's significant because it sort of puts Virginia education toward the middle of the American spectrum.

In terms of teaching culture, I think that while the practices have evolved and become more subtle...and more balanced...Americans still teach American culture. In fact, I think that's one of the reasons America is too America-centered. In Virginia (and many other states) it is a state law that you begin the morning with the Pledge of Allegiance. Yes, a student can quietly "sit it out", but nevertheless, as principal, I followed the law and got on the PA system every morning and led the pledge. Then most schools do a minute of some kind of "thought for the day". Of course, it's not religious. But a common theme might be "the golden rule", the value of honesty (academic or otherwise), or a mildly patriotic message. Then there's the curriculum, which though a former science teacher, I preferred observing and evaluating social studies and ESOL teachers (as well as science and English; my APs did the other content areas). Yes, there has been a cultural adjustment in the social studies curriculum since I was a kid, but you have to look deep to see it. For example, in our 7th grade program the topics began with the end of Civil War Reconstruction, on to westward expansion, WWI, the Great Depression, WWII, the Cold War, and Civil Rights. Make no mistake -- even in Virginia -- the Union wore the white hats, the Confederates the black hats (metaphorically speaking); America was justified in its treatment of the Indians during westward expansion; we were the good guys in WWI, WWII, and the Cold War; and the Civil Rights movement could only succeed because of the great nation we really are. Well, those are not new themes since my childhood (except for the Civil Rights movement), but there has been an evolution in that there is more debate in the curriculum. For example, due to a parent complaint, I sat in on a social studies classroom debate where the topic was: was the US justified in dropping the atomic bombs on Japan? In the 8th grade curriculum, students are taught the brilliance of the founding fathers in forming out government. Again, there's more room for debate now than 20-30-40 years ago, but the basic premise is what a wonderful country we Americans have.

When you discussed the teaching of "Thainess"...well, that interests me...I have visited only a few Thai schools. But what I was thinking was that you and I come from a very different world. Right now, America is one of the great world powers. You, I take it, are from Australia (?), and therefore there is still a connection to Great Britain (although I am just uneducated enough to not understand what that connection now is...I guess I've got some studying to do! But here's my point, on the world stage America's size and history and the British empire's size and history have given our citizenries national identities that are well formed. But here in SE Asia, you have a group of little countries that are trying not to be swallowed up by a global world culture. I've spent a little time in Malaysia, and I am quite aware of the national campaigns to definite what Malaysia "is". Suharto tried to do that in Indonesia, as well. And your reference to "Thainess" is the same thing. I don't agree with you that it is true indoctrination because I associate that word with forcing thoughts and beliefs on a people. Tomorrow, if you held a plebiscite among Thais and asked the question, "Do you think we should continue to teach Thainess in our schools?", my guess is that an overwhelming majority of the people would say yes. In fact, the only people I've heard speak against it are non-Thais.

Now, when you say, "The same goes for discipline & morality...these things need not be a formal part of any curriculum as they are inherent in every society all over the world", I would respond by saying:

1. Like yesterday in Bangkok?

2. Like Nazi Germany?

3. Like Pol Pot's Cambodia?

4. Like Rawanda?

5. Like Bosnia?

6. Like Darfur and the Sudan?

...and those are just cases of genocide, except for yesterday in Thailand, which certainly is not genocide but certainly is a failure of discipline and morality.

I had the opportunity to take a series of courses in linguistics a few years ago, and I found it very interesting when we studied (albeit briefly) the number of languages that have simply disappeared as independent cultures were absorbed by more dominant cultures. I think it's important for Thailand to be different from Malaysia. For Malaysia to be different from Burma. For Indonesia to be different than the Philippines. Since 1987, most years I visited Thailand for 3-7 weeks at a time, and then around 2004 I took a break for about 4 years. The changes I see -- and I'm not even talking about the politics -- in Bangkok worry me. The younger the Thai person I see now, the more he or she looks just like a young person in Virginia. They wear pretty much the same clothes, they make their music stars look the same (even though they don't sound the same), the hair styles are...well not sure what they are...but not very Thai, they seem to prefer to eat at McDonalds and Sizzler or Japanese restaurants, etc. They have arrived in that world culture that so worries me.

Okay, I've rambled enough. Shot me full of holes!

[phetaroi]

Agree with el kangotito.phetaroj does not understand Thai culture,

And you do? (For example your post of 4/12/2008: "Hello.My name is Unfaithful.I am a man.I have woken up in strange hotel rooms with slim brown things lying next to me.I am not in favor of monogamy.I am not in a impregnating lifestyle.I think many men do not want more than one partner, but I want three or four.Spices, especially Thai spices, are the variety of life.")

[elkangorito]

I appear to have failed to clearly communicate my meaning here.

As far as I know, nowhere in the Australian or the American education system, things like 'Australians behave in such & such a way' or 'All Americans love god' exist. Please correct me if I am wrong. These things disappeared from Australian education a long time ago. They still exist in the Thai education whether it is truly part of the Thai education system or not (individuals deciding to do this). I remember having 'compulsory' scripture classes (Christian) in Primary School...this has since been abolished.

Where culture forms the 'rules' of a society, it is no longer culture...it is indoctrination.

In Thailand, 'culture' is by indoctrination. 'Free will' or 'free choice' has little say. To witness this, simply attend any morning assembly at any school. Someone waffles on incessantly for quite a while but about what? Is there that much 'news' to talk about? No, there isn't but someone can waffle on about 'Thainess' until the cows come home...& they will score lots of brownie points for doing so.

Quite often, these morning 'indoctrination sessions' (assemblies) incorporate things about Buddhism. So much for the non-Buddhist students.

And there is no need to mention the 'don't ask questions' policy in classrooms, which is a part of the 'culture'.

To me, 'culture' is about customs & memories, which do not become 'rules'. They are pleasant things to be enjoyed by everybody. When it becomes part of 'rules', people become robots & fear reprisal from every quarter (rule by guilt...ego). "Loss of face' is the worst part of this kind of control mechanism.

The same goes for discipline & morality...these things need not be a formal part of any curriculum as they are inherent in every society all over the world. One doesn't need to be taught these things...one simply needs exposure to these things & then individual choices can be made, hopefully without fear being an overriding factor.

I think the word 'culture' could be easily replaced with the word 'repression' in Thailand.

Overall, I still maintain that education in Thailand (amongst other things, like 'democracy') will always be 'behind the 8 ball' until such a time that culture becomes truly a 'culture' & not an excuse to control the masses.

Not on topic but as a further note, I reckon that the teaching of English in Thailand is far too fast. A slower approach is needed. I have also suggested to my Thai colleagues that English be a mandatory subject from kindergarten up to the end of M2. From M3 onwards, English could be an elective subject.

A response to these suggestions has not happened since it was only last week that I spoke of these things.

Let's face it, indoctrination of any kind requires rote learning to be the principle method of 'programming' (education).[/color]

Thanks for responding, and while you may have failed to communicate some thoughts well, it is just as likely that I failed to interpret what your wrote very well.

Of course, I can't speak for Australia, but let me say a few things about American schools. Let me preface my comments by saying I was a school administrator in Virginia...a state which lately can't quite decide if it's red or blue, and that's significant because it sort of puts Virginia education toward the middle of the American spectrum.

In terms of teaching culture, I think that while the practices have evolved and become more subtle...and more balanced...Americans still teach American culture. In fact, I think that's one of the reasons America is too America-centered. In Virginia (and many other states) it is a state law that you begin the morning with the Pledge of Allegiance. Yes, a student can quietly "sit it out", but nevertheless, as principal, I followed the law and got on the PA system every morning and led the pledge. Then most schools do a minute of some kind of "thought for the day". Of course, it's not religious. But a common theme might be "the golden rule", the value of honesty (academic or otherwise), or a mildly patriotic message. Then there's the curriculum, which though a former science teacher, I preferred observing and evaluating social studies and ESOL teachers (as well as science and English; my APs did the other content areas). Yes, there has been a cultural adjustment in the social studies curriculum since I was a kid, but you have to look deep to see it. For example, in our 7th grade program the topics began with the end of Civil War Reconstruction, on to westward expansion, WWI, the Great Depression, WWII, the Cold War, and Civil Rights. Make no mistake -- even in Virginia -- the Union wore the white hats, the Confederates the black hats (metaphorically speaking); America was justified in its treatment of the Indians during westward expansion; we were the good guys in WWI, WWII, and the Cold War; and the Civil Rights movement could only succeed because of the great nation we really are. Well, those are not new themes since my childhood (except for the Civil Rights movement), but there has been an evolution in that there is more debate in the curriculum. For example, due to a parent complaint, I sat in on a social studies classroom debate where the topic was: was the US justified in dropping the atomic bombs on Japan? In the 8th grade curriculum, students are taught the brilliance of the founding fathers in forming out government. Again, there's more room for debate now than 20-30-40 years ago, but the basic premise is what a wonderful country we Americans have.

When you discussed the teaching of "Thainess"...well, that interests me...I have visited only a few Thai schools. But what I was thinking was that you and I come from a very different world. Right now, America is one of the great world powers. You, I take it, are from Australia (?), and therefore there is still a connection to Great Britain (although I am just uneducated enough to not understand what that connection now is...I guess I've got some studying to do! But here's my point, on the world stage America's size and history and the British empire's size and history have given our citizenries national identities that are well formed. But here in SE Asia, you have a group of little countries that are trying not to be swallowed up by a global world culture. I've spent a little time in Malaysia, and I am quite aware of the national campaigns to definite what Malaysia "is". Suharto tried to do that in Indonesia, as well. And your reference to "Thainess" is the same thing. I don't agree with you that it is true indoctrination because I associate that word with forcing thoughts and beliefs on a people. Tomorrow, if you held a plebiscite among Thais and asked the question, "Do you think we should continue to teach Thainess in our schools?", my guess is that an overwhelming majority of the people would say yes. In fact, the only people I've heard speak against it are non-Thais.

Now, when you say, "The same goes for discipline & morality...these things need not be a formal part of any curriculum as they are inherent in every society all over the world", I would respond by saying:

1. Like yesterday in Bangkok?

2. Like Nazi Germany?

3. Like Pol Pot's Cambodia?

4. Like Rawanda?

5. Like Bosnia?

6. Like Darfur and the Sudan?

...and those are just cases of genocide, except for yesterday in Thailand, which certainly is not genocide but certainly is a failure of discipline and morality.

I had the opportunity to take a series of courses in linguistics a few years ago, and I found it very interesting when we studied (albeit briefly) the number of languages that have simply disappeared as independent cultures were absorbed by more dominant cultures. I think it's important for Thailand to be different from Malaysia. For Malaysia to be different from Burma. For Indonesia to be different than the Philippines. Since 1987, most years I visited Thailand for 3-7 weeks at a time, and then around 2004 I took a break for about 4 years. The changes I see -- and I'm not even talking about the politics -- in Bangkok worry me. The younger the Thai person I see now, the more he or she looks just like a young person in Virginia. They wear pretty much the same clothes, they make their music stars look the same (even though they don't sound the same), the hair styles are...well not sure what they are...but not very Thai, they seem to prefer to eat at McDonalds and Sizzler or Japanese restaurants, etc. They have arrived in that world culture that so worries me.

Okay, I've rambled enough. Shot me full of holes!

Hi Phetaroi.

It appears that we may be getting 'off topic' with our discussion. Subsequently, I will start a new thread, which you will immediately recognise by it's title. I will 'use/respond to' this post of yours in my preliminary post. I hope to see you there.

[PeaceBlondie]

Agreeing with Unfaithful - based on his posts, it appears that phetaroj does not understand Thai culture or Thai education.

[phetaroi]

Agreeing with Unfaithful - based on his posts, it appears that phetaroj does not understand Thai culture or Thai education.

The OP is about rote learning. Rote learning exists in all cultures and countries.

One thing I try never to do is play the game of exclusion. Usually you don't either. I would remind you that, as a farang, there are many Thais who would say you don't understand Thai culture. You have more experience living in Thailand than do I after just one year. But then again there are farangs on TV dot com who have spent the last decade on a bar stool in Pattaya...and they think they understand Thai culture, too. They do know about some aspects of Thai culture. You know about some aspects of Thai culture. I know about some aspects of Thai culture. Despite my long and rather respectable resume in the field of education, I don't attempt to exclude anyone from discussing education, whether they be a teenager, a teacher, or someone who had a few weeks of instruction in TEFL. There are things to learn from everyone and every perspective.

[Scott]

Your quite correct, Phetaroi. I think some people decide that when there is disagreement, it's obvious (to them) that you don't understand the culture.

I think there are very few farang who truly 'understand' the culture. I know Thai people who don't even seem to understand it well!

But education is education and it is about learning and some methods work better than others and some combination of these are more efficient. Schools play many roles. They teach, they indoctrinate, they provide a vehicle for passing on the culture and traditions of a country (or an ethic group).

[PeaceBlondie]

Did I say I understood Thai culture, after 7 years of living outside of BKK and living and working with Thais? Nope.

[Scott]

Whoa, I am not trying to take sides and I am not trying to accuse anyone. Just make a statement. I don't know that any of us knows or understands the culture very well and even if we do, it's a cerebral exercise rather than an emotional one--and there is a big difference.

But we are digressing. My apologies.

[phetaroi]

I think there are very few farang who truly 'understand' the culture. I know Thai people who don't even seem to understand it well!

And one of the nice things in having worked on the other side...in the States...and sometimes with children and parents from the Thai embassy...is that they don't usually "get" American culture, either.

We had quite a few embassy kids in our school (we were in an affluent neighborhood in suburban DC)...and we did have several Thai embassy families (some "just" workers, others higher-ups). We did have an incident, however, with an Indonesian boy, and the father (who was perhaps an attache, can't remember exactly) pulled the "diplomatic immunity" card. I called our school attorneys and said, "Now what?" "Very simple Vince. You call the ambassador's office and report the incident. 95% of the time the parent, who is clearly a hi-so, will either conform to the school's decision or be sent home. Foreign governments try to avoid at almost all cost any kind of situation like this that could hit the press, and believe me Vince, they know we can easily make it hit the press." My hand was shaking when I made the call, but I did. And indeed, the parent called less than 3 hours later accepting the 2 day suspension, without question. Incidentally, to anyone who is wondering how we would have gotten around privacy laws, the offense was associated with a low-level felony, so the information would have been released by the police without, of course, the child's name. Thankfully, it all ended rather nicely, and the father was quite pleasant in future dealings with the school. Just as we sometimes learn here that things don't work quite as we think they should, he learned the same there.

[thunder30101]

You seem to be a nice enough person phetaroi, but every post you make in this forum you always refer to your experience in the us education system which has nothing to do with the thai education system, and I respectfully say as you dont have any exp. with the system here you cant begin to fathom the problems teachers face here on an everyday basis.

[Scott]

Much of what we, as teachers, do is to compare and contrast educational systems from where we come. The second step is to put that comparison into a cultural contrast. The third thing is to combine those to do our job effectively.

It's also good to remember that many teachers in Thailand never taught in their home country. Their recollection of education is from being a student.

[phetaroi]

You seem to be a nice enough person phetaroi, but every post you make in this forum you always refer to your experience in the us education system which has nothing to do with the thai education system, and I respectfully say as you dont have any exp. with the system here you cant begin to fathom the problems teachers face here on an everyday basis.

I use this forum as much as a learning tool as a posting tool. And, while teaching styles vary from one country to another, good teaching and learning can work anywhere.

I understand what you're saying, which is basically "go away". No. If you don't want to read my posts, skip over them. Put me on the ignore function.

You see, the problem is that a Thai person could say to you, "You're not Thai, you don't understand." I'm sorry, but I don't believe in excluding people from the conversation.

There are some very good posts in this forum, and a lot of downright crap that is frivolous, at best. Somehow, I think the bandwidth can tolerate an occasional post from a retired educator.

[phetaroi]

Much of what we, as teachers, do is to compare and contrast educational systems from where we come. The second step is to put that comparison into a cultural contrast. The third thing is to combine those to do our job effectively.

It's also good to remember that many teachers in Thailand never taught in their home country. Their recollection of education is from being a student.

I think you've made some good points here, Scott.

There are several types of expat American and British teachers here in Thailand. Some are truly qualified professional educators. Some have a minimal qualification, perhaps a TEFL course and certificate. Some are not much more than backpackers who use teaching as a way to get by financially while they find themselves (tongue in cheek, there). And, while my view of those various "levels" of qualifications vary, people from each group have something to offer. What I find interesting, and more so on ajarn dot com, is that expat educators usually try to teacher as they did in the West, or as you point out, as they were taught in the West. But as soon as another expat makes a comment, it's the old exclusionary attitude of you don't work here, so you don't know.

This exclusionary attitude is not very conducive to learning. I remember before I moved here in retirement, and not related to the field of education, an occasional post of mine would get a response along the lines of, "You don't live here, so you don't know, so come back after you've lived here for 6 months and tell us what you think then." Well, then after I had lived here for some period of time, same line, except it suddenly changed to "a year", or "5 years", or "10 years".

There are very few people who can at least have an intelligent conversation that I can't learn something from.

[thunder30101]

I never said anything even close to go away but if you wish to constantly compare your exp in the us education system why not get out and exp the thai system ? then you will be able to honestly compare the two. Someone with your many years of teaching and admin exp would be welcomed with open arms in any school in thailand. Lots of volunteer positions are availible or why not go to some colleges and offer your help to phd and masters students with their papers ? Maybe after doing this for 6 months or so then you can tell others how the education system here compares to the west.

[PeaceBlondie]

Your opinion is welcome.

[Scott]

Yes, it's welcome. And you are free to ignore advise about what to do with the rest of your life from others.

[phetaroi]

I never said anything even close to go away but if you wish to constantly compare your exp in the us education system why not get out and exp the thai system ? then you will be able to honestly compare the two. Someone with your many years of teaching and admin exp would be welcomed with open arms in any school in thailand. Lots of volunteer positions are availible or why not go to some colleges and offer your help to phd and masters students with their papers ? Maybe after doing this for 6 months or so then you can tell others how the education system here compares to the west.

Thunder, I don't do what you suggest for a couple of reasons. First of all, I'm over 60 now, after 33 years in the field, I've earned a rest. Second, if you're on a "retirement visa" in Thailand, you can't volunteer...you can only get a work permit and surrender your "retirement visa".

I took some time today to read all your past posts about education in Thailand. You seem awfully cynical about education in Thailand. I'm curious as to why. I'm curious also about what your teaching qualifications are.

Now, let me make myself clear. You have no obligation to answer those questions. Feel free not to. I'm not trying to make you angry. I'm simply curious about your negativity.

And finally, do you teach as teachers teach in the West, or do you teach as Thai teachers teach?

By the way, feel free to ask me professionally related questions, as well.

[phetaroi]

Yes, it's welcome. And you are free to ignore advise about what to do with the rest of your life from others.

Thank you Scott and PeaceBlondie!

Oh, no problem with the advice from others. As a school principal I learned to have a VERY thick skin. And I know as teachers you do, as well. Teaching is a great profession. I always felt honored to be a part of it.

You're both great posters and moderators. Thanks for all you do.

[thunder30101]

Cynical ? Do you think I am because you dont like my descriptions of what I have seen and these dont fit your idea of education and the way things should be ? I dont think so, after teaching here for a year I have seen the horror of so called education in thailand up close, do you have any idea what it is like to look your students in the eyes every day full well knowing you are part of the theft of their money and education my friend ? Do you wonder why no one stays here in a teaching position very long ? I have a bachelors in sociology and a tefl cert with no prior teaching exp.other than corp training before coming to thailand. Anything related to western education is totally worthless, why you might ask ? because education is a for profit business here and nothing else, the students education doesnt matter. Books and curriculums way above students abilities, but they look good and make money for schools and teachers. Thai teachers teaching english who cannot carry on a conversation let alone string more than two words together who are pissed off because you make so much more money and will try to screw you whenever they get the chance(yeah nice smile there). Administrators who dont want to hear the book they wrote is full of mistakes( hey I have a PhD !!!) or the syllabus should be changed to better reflect the level of your students they are only interested in that next white envelope stuffed full of baht. An 80% is a A ??? 50% is a pass ??? No one fails or if they do guess what you can take a remedial class for a price and you will pass. I asked one of the thai part timers what she was teaching during break, oh I am teaching students who failed last semester, jesus they couldnt pass in 4 months with a western teacher so now they are going to do it in one month with someone who doesnt know the language ! The insanity goes on and on. I am not disrepecting your exp in education but until you have seen it firsthand it will be hard for you to understand. For me the hardest part is I like thailand and most of the people, but as a society it is dying a slow death, all of the other asian countries are advancing because of their investment in education. In 2015 asean members will be able to migrate freely withing the asean community and compete for jobs, Im sure you can imagine the consequences of that. With the expenditures per capita thailand spends on education the return is quite dismal. Maybe 30-50 years from now things might change but I wont be around to see it.

[phetaroi]

Cynical ? Do you think I am because you dont like my descriptions of what I have seen and these dont fit your idea of education and the way things should be ? I dont think so, after teaching here for a year I have seen the horror of so called education in thailand up close, do you have any idea what it is like to look your students in the eyes every day full well knowing you are part of the theft of their money and education my friend ? Do you wonder why no one stays here in a teaching position very long ? I have a bachelors in sociology and a tefl cert with no prior teaching exp.other than corp training before coming to thailand. Anything related to western education is totally worthless, why you might ask ? because education is a for profit business here and nothing else, the students education doesnt matter. Books and curriculums way above students abilities, but they look good and make money for schools and teachers. Thai teachers teaching english who cannot carry on a conversation let alone string more than two words together who are pissed off because you make so much more money and will try to screw you whenever they get the chance(yeah nice smile there). Administrators who dont want to hear the book they wrote is full of mistakes( hey I have a PhD !!!) or the syllabus should be changed to better reflect the level of your students they are only interested in that next white envelope stuffed full of baht. An 80% is a A ??? 50% is a pass ??? No one fails or if they do guess what you can take a remedial class for a price and you will pass. I asked one of the thai part timers what she was teaching during break, oh I am teaching students who failed last semester, jesus they couldnt pass in 4 months with a western teacher so now they are going to do it in one month with someone who doesnt know the language ! The insanity goes on and on. I am not disrepecting your exp in education but until you have seen it firsthand it will be hard for you to understand. For me the hardest part is I like thailand and most of the people, but as a society it is dying a slow death, all of the other asian countries are advancing because of their investment in education. In 2015 asean members will be able to migrate freely withing the asean community and compete for jobs, Im sure you can imagine the consequences of that. With the expenditures per capita thailand spends on education the return is quite dismal. Maybe 30-50 years from now things might change but I wont be around to see it.

Thank you for answering my questions.

[thunder30101]

More of a rant than answers lol, the problems in the system here are very deep and intertwined. Just guessing we are talking about 2 or 3 generations before any serious change can be expected and realistically probably longer. Many people on here seem very negative towards one side or the other in the current political mess, but to me it is opening up a whole new chapter for the thais as people are actually starting to think and ask questions concerning democracy and equality for all citizens. Education is and always will be the single greatest equalizer there is. So lets all hope something positive comes out of this change for the education of all thai and foreign students in thailand.