Bangkok Showdown: Clashes Seem Inevitable Now

[Ivanuvich]

I would like to say, "what the .... does the change of military brass have to do with Politics, but that would be naiive wouldn't it.

But what it does emphasize, is the military influence over this Government, that they will go to the wall, to accommodate the military.

Just some more fodder for the protesters

[Ivanuvich]

Calling the Peoples Channel information 'propaganda' is so ludicrous and beyond belief, when contrasted to the State Channels and ASTV.......This is not just a double standard...it is that...... multiplied many times.

I didn't compare them to other channels.

Peoples Channel is clearly propaganda. They tell lies, they put doctored video/audio to incite violence. That's propaganda.

I was going to say, "try watching it sometime"...but under the circumstances that doesn't apply.

You have never even watched it!

On the outside chance that you did see it, you wouldn't understand it anyway.

Maybe you weren't comparing it to other channels....but I am.

Edited April 9, 2010 by Ivanuvich

[bubba]

And even if you put 5 people in each of those cars, that's still only 300. Spread them out with a car space between each car. Put them in 2 lanes of traffic. Travel speed at about 20 kmh. 15 minutes. let me do some calculations .... about 6250 people.

I was there...were you?

Sorry, your hypothetical calculation fails. Most of them were on motorcycles and they were riding three and four abreast. And then there were pickups with as many as ten, and then Hinos with 15-20 people. Phaholyothin has three lanes. And it went on for a lot longer than 15 minutes. I've just finished lunch at Greyhound Villa Ari with a client and they are still going past, although fewer. Decided to wait it out for a while before getting back out in Phaholyothin, but it looks fairly OK now.

Care to re-jigger your calculations perhaps?

Edited April 9, 2010 by bubba

[BKjohn]

Water gun, tear gases and rubber bullets will be used if necessary, Sansern said

Finally ... now lets see if they actually do so, if not .. well, its not going to be Thailand anymore soon but it will be renamed into "Taksinland"

[jdinasia]

Calling the Peoples Channel information 'propaganda' is so ludicrous and beyond belief, when contrasted to the State Channels and ASTV.......This is not just a double standard...it is that...... multiplied many times.

I didn't compare them to other channels.

Peoples Channel is clearly propaganda. They tell lies, they put doctored video/audio to incite violence. That's propaganda.

I was going to say, "try watching it sometime"...but under the circumstances that doesn't apply.

You have never even watched it!

On the outside chance that you did see it, you wouldn't understand it anyway.

Maybe you weren't comparing it to other channels....but I am.

Not only have I watched People TV, I have watched it a lot. They are the propoganda wing of the red shirts. They have openly broadcast lies that were stated from the red stage. They could get away with that and call it reporting IF they didn't add lies and threats underneath. I understand Thai and can confirm that they have participated in the lies and not just reported on the lies.

Yes I can compare them to other channels. ASTV currently takes a reporting news stance only. Their commentary on the news is clearly biased but that is commentary.

The standard broadcast channels report the news and spend little enough time commenting on it.

[draggons]

If something doesn't happen today I think the Govement will definatly be up s**t creek, unfortunatly.

[Guest]

When he was PM it was known as Thailand PLC.

[Insight]

Interesting that a 48 hours timeline to dissolve parliament is acceptble, yet the 15 day red shirt request is not?

Where are the red shirt bashers to comment on the 48 hour ultimatum. Why are they notcalling the perps evil thugs?

is it because that would mean acknowledging that the Reds 15 days is reasonable compared to the 48 hrs?

Hahah, stew in your own tears you hypocrites.

hmmm because there was no 48 hour ultimatum? It was floated to get Arisman back in line as he was hurting the reds by his stunt of breaking into parliament?

Exactly. What are you on GK? It was pure unsubstantiated rumour.

[BKjohn]

W

When he was PM it was known as Thailand PLC.

With Mr. T as the majority shareholder and the rest was split between wife and children and some of his supporters

[chesneychez]

May i know the best site to view photos of the protest in Bangkok ?

[yoshiwara]

Trying to put numbers to this protest is a fools game.

The numbers actually protesting are only representative of huge numbers nationwide.

Abhisit and friends are avoiding elections for good reasons.

The minority against these protests keep hoping that during the fluctuations of attendance, that the lower levels represent their totality in the country.

The number of protesters in bangkok are just that...the number that are in Bangkok.......count them nation-wide and you will see why elections are to be avoided by some people.

Forget the numbers, even huge ones......they are representative of a nation-wide Movement.

That is why applying force on those in Bangkok is such a losing proposition....never mind cutting off their TV source of info.

That may feel good to the Amataya, but it just breeds more converts.

Translated, this means,

'the numbers are less than I would have liked but they are really much bigger and 'er....

... only a fool predicts how many the numbers are...

....and now I am going to be that fool'

And then he lies about elections.

Confuses having an election with the timing of an election

The rest is blah.

Thaksin apologist classic.

[anotherpeter]

And even if you put 5 people in each of those cars, that's still only 300. Spread them out with a car space between each car. Put them in 2 lanes of traffic. Travel speed at about 20 kmh. 15 minutes. let me do some calculations .... about 6250 people.

I was there...were you?

Sorry, your hypothetical calculation fails. Most of them were on motorcycles and they were riding three and four abreast. And then there were pickups with as many as ten, and then Hinos with 15-20 people. Phaholyothin has three lanes. And it went on for a lot longer than 15 minutes. I've just finished lunch at Greyhound Villa Ari with a client and they are still going past, although fewer. Decided to wait it out for a while before getting back out in Phaholyothin, but it looks fairly OK now.

Care to re-jigger your calculations perhaps?

Motorcyles 3 or 4 abreast would be about the same as a pick up in the same space. Similarly for the Hinos.

On average, 7 people per pick up. Lots of gaps between cars ... particularly towards the end. Maybe 20,000 people.

[lannarebirth]

When he was PM it was known as Thailand PLC.

I'm sure he can hardly wait to get his new African. Middle Eastern, Central American and Eastern European despot friends on board. He can trade his supporters subsitance rice plots for blood diamonds and casinoes.

[robint]

my take is that this weekend is crunch time cos its songkran next tuesday

im curious as to the logistics of the whole rally. how do you supply 100,000 plus people with food water, sanitary and medical facilities? how is all their rubbish cleared away? its bad enough in my street after a week.someone is colluding here, its all very fishy

who is ready to jump ship - they are good at that

rightly or wrongly, if the government falls to a mob it will be a disaster for the economy - they have made a very fair offer to resign in and orderly fashion before the end of the year so that the country's business can be carried on as planned, what more do they want - anarchy = smash everything burn it all down.

what do you know falang

s

[elcent]

And even if you put 5 people in each of those cars, that's still only 300. Spread them out with a car space between each car. Put them in 2 lanes of traffic. Travel speed at about 20 kmh. 15 minutes. let me do some calculations .... about 6250 people.

... but only when all are red shirts, no trucks for equipment or other cars within the traffic.

It's save to say half of your amount is more realistic.

[gymboy33]

by the look of the pictures on the ppl channel

they're starting to reach todays front line

[tigermonkey]

I think you are making one mistake here; If these were people with political grievances and an understanding thereof, I would agree, but the majority are nothing but uneducated, IQ challenged people who are only here because Mr. T is paying them.

Remove all those porn's, you end up with a group of hardcore would be Terrorists and their leaders who are all looking at overthrowing the government for financial gain once Mr. T returns.

Why are they so against the 9 months term - the answer is simple, it would cost Mr. T too much to keep up his supporters

It probably has more to do with the military command reshuffle and military budgets coming up than anything else. Also, wouldn't it be a bit disingenuous for them to be protesting for a true democracy to exist in 9 months? If you want something, chances are you want it now.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The can never be a true democracy here as long as those people who are protesting now, are willing to sell their votes to the highest bidder. They are the ones that are the cause of it all because they do not understand what is going on or are only interested in how much cash they are going to get

The precurser for a "real" democracy requires understanding and responsibillity of the majority of the voters

I am sorry that you do not understand Thai people and their history -- you judge by farang standards when you speak of selling " their votes to the highest bidder" ---- if they did that, yes it would be vote buying -- but usually the poor accept gifts from more that one candidate -- and it is NOT vote buying in the Thai person's mind.

I quote Borwornsak Uwanno ( The Royal Institute,Thailand) in his treatise " The Dynamics of Thai Politics" " ..... an economic system as described above ( patronage by rich noblemen), electing representatives has not only have the political meaning of electing someone to speak for oneself. It also has an economic meaning of being an exchange as existing in the system of patronage. "Vote buying" is simply not giving away money and getting votes. Rather, it means "paying back" for the kindness of the persons elected in giving support to the people in their constituencies."

Remember -- this is Thailand !

Edited April 9, 2010 by tigermonkey

[gymboy33]

there dont look like there'll be clashes at the first place they've reached coz theres a river separating the reds and the army and property

[yoshiwara]

I think you are making one mistake here; If these were people with political grievances and an understanding thereof, I would agree, but the majority are nothing but uneducated, IQ challenged people who are only here because Mr. T is paying them.

Remove all those porn's, you end up with a group of hardcore would be Terrorists and their leaders who are all looking at overthrowing the government for financial gain once Mr. T returns.

Why are they so against the 9 months term - the answer is simple, it would cost Mr. T too much to keep up his supporters

It probably has more to do with the military command reshuffle and military budgets coming up than anything else. Also, wouldn't it be a bit disingenuous for them to be protesting for a true democracy to exist in 9 months? If you want something, chances are you want it now.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The can never be a true democracy here as long as those people who are protesting now, are willing to sell their votes to the highest bidder. They are the ones that are the cause of it all because they do not understand what is going on or are only interested in how much cash they are going to get

The precurser for a "real" democracy requires understanding and responsibillity of the majority of the voters

I am sorry that you do not understand Thai people and their history -- you judge by farng standards when you speak of selling " their votes to the highest bidder" if they did that, yes it would be vote buying -- but usually they accept gifts from more that one candidate -- and it is NOT vote buying in the Thai person's mind.

I quote Borwornsak Uwanno ( The Royal Insyitute,Thailand) in his treatise " The Dynamics of Thai Politics" " ..... an economic system as described above ( patronage by rich noblemen), electing representatives has not only have the political meaning of electing someone to speak for oneself. It also has an economic meaning of being an exchange as existing in the system of patronage. "Vote buying" is simply not giving away money and getting votes. Rather, it means "paying back" for the kindness of the persons elected in giving support to the people in their constituencies."

Remember -- this is Thailand !

Another Thaksin apologetic wrapped up in mumbo-jumbo this time.

[lannarebirth]

I think you are making one mistake here; If these were people with political grievances and an understanding thereof, I would agree, but the majority are nothing but uneducated, IQ challenged people who are only here because Mr. T is paying them.

Remove all those porn's, you end up with a group of hardcore would be Terrorists and their leaders who are all looking at overthrowing the government for financial gain once Mr. T returns.

Why are they so against the 9 months term - the answer is simple, it would cost Mr. T too much to keep up his supporters

It probably has more to do with the military command reshuffle and military budgets coming up than anything else. Also, wouldn't it be a bit disingenuous for them to be protesting for a true democracy to exist in 9 months? If you want something, chances are you want it now.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The can never be a true democracy here as long as those people who are protesting now, are willing to sell their votes to the highest bidder. They are the ones that are the cause of it all because they do not understand what is going on or are only interested in how much cash they are going to get

The precurser for a "real" democracy requires understanding and responsibillity of the majority of the voters

I am sorry that you do not understand Thai people and their history -- you judge by farang standards when you speak of selling " their votes to the highest bidder" ---- if they did that, yes it would be vote buying -- but usually they accept gifts from more that one candidate -- and it is NOT vote buying in the Thai person's mind.

I quote Borwornsak Uwanno ( The Royal Insyitute,Thailand) in his treatise " The Dynamics of Thai Politics" " ..... an economic system as described above ( patronage by rich noblemen), electing representatives has not only have the political meaning of electing someone to speak for oneself. It also has an economic meaning of being an exchange as existing in the system of patronage. "Vote buying" is simply not giving away money and getting votes. Rather, it means "paying back" for the kindness of the persons elected in giving support to the people in their constituencies."

Remember -- this is Thailand !

You're right, and that's the problem. It is Thai culture itself that is at odds with democracy. Reds (as currently configured) = "meet the new boss"

Edited April 9, 2010 by lannarebirth

[Jimmu]

Mumbo-Jumbo is that synonymous with crap?

[khunjamespittman]

I think you are making one mistake here; If these were people with political grievances and an understanding thereof, I would agree, but the majority are nothing but uneducated, IQ challenged people who are only here because Mr. T is paying them.

Remove all those porn's, you end up with a group of hardcore would be Terrorists and their leaders who are all looking at overthrowing the government for financial gain once Mr. T returns.

Why are they so against the 9 months term - the answer is simple, it would cost Mr. T too much to keep up his supporters

It probably has more to do with the military command reshuffle and military budgets coming up than anything else. Also, wouldn't it be a bit disingenuous for them to be protesting for a true democracy to exist in 9 months? If you want something, chances are you want it now.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The can never be a true democracy here as long as those people who are protesting now, are willing to sell their votes to the highest bidder. They are the ones that are the cause of it all because they do not understand what is going on or are only interested in how much cash they are going to get

The precurser for a "real" democracy requires understanding and responsibillity of the majority of the voters

So BKK please tell me where you got your immaculate wisdom?

I have seen any evidence of knowledge or for that matter any pertinent fact in your post.

Where did you get your information about what the majority stands for? I thought that was what a national referendum was for.

I think you are mistaken. You don't tell people what they understand nor impune their motives. Two previous elections have shown they are the majority and they are showing their responsibility by standing up to a minority who is trying to hold on to their power by escalating their provocative military and police actions to try to silence the Opposition.

Instead of attacking the character of the opposition you should use as much energy to work to get an agreement amongst the groups on a realistic set of plans that they can then negotiate an early national election to allow the peoples will to heard in their votes in an election observed by a group of independent international observers.

Then, after we have a real understanding of who the majority are I hope you will have the common sense to recognize whoever is the majority. Proclaiming a majority from thin air when intuition based previous performance indicates the contrary is just plain nonsense.

Please try with some positive input on resolving the problem.

[bacchanal]

As for outside Central, I've been told by red shirters there were 1 million there

Reminiscent of Veera proclaiming that they had 3 million protesters in Bangkok on the first day this all kicked off.

Edited April 9, 2010 by bacchanal

[anotherpeter]

The can never be a true democracy here as long as those people who are protesting now, are willing to sell their votes to the highest bidder. They are the ones that are the cause of it all because they do not understand what is going on or are only interested in how much cash they are going to get

The precurser for a "real" democracy requires understanding and responsibillity of the majority of the voters

So BKK please tell me where you got your immaculate wisdom?

I have seen any evidence of knowledge or for that matter any pertinent fact in your post.

Where did you get your information about what the majority stands for? I thought that was what a national referendum was for.

I think you are mistaken. You don't tell people what they understand nor impune their motives. Two previous elections have shown they are the majority and they are showing their responsibility by standing up to a minority who is trying to hold on to their power by escalating their provocative military and police actions to try to silence the Opposition.

Instead of attacking the character of the opposition you should use as much energy to work to get an agreement amongst the groups on a realistic set of plans that they can then negotiate an early national election to allow the peoples will to heard in their votes in an election observed by a group of independent international observers.

Then, after we have a real understanding of who the majority are I hope you will have the common sense to recognize whoever is the majority. Proclaiming a majority from thin air when intuition based previous performance indicates the contrary is just plain nonsense.

Please try with some positive input on resolving the problem.

Khun James, it's a well known fact that a lot of people receive money for voting for particular people.

It is also a well known fact that in the previous election (2007) the Thaksin party did NOT have a majority. And the election before that was declared invalid (before the coup).

It is also a well know fact that the current government represents the majority of Thailand.

And just for some positive input on resolving the problem, why don't the red shirts go home, put some political parties together that represent what they want, and get voted for in the next election.

edit: and instead of just attacking other peoples thoughts about the problems, "please try with some positive input on resolving the problem"

Edited April 9, 2010 by anotherpeter

[tigermonkey]

Mumbo-Jumbo is that synonymous with crap?

No -- mumbo-jumbo is a phrase used by those who are unwilling ( or perhaps mentally unable ) to understand the truth .

[bacchanal]

Trying to put numbers to this protest is a fools game.

Especially when the red leaders put so much BS into their ridiculous claims. They must think all their followers are fools.

[TheLaughingMan]

Having taken a hardline stance, which for the time being may have saved his bacon, what does Khun Abhisit do if the military and police continue to be innefective at dispersing the demonstrators? I doubt that he now has the authority to impose a reshuffle on the military top brass; even if he has, I dout that the new commanders will be more willing to use force.

Khun Ahbisit's seemes to be pre-occupied with the economy. That IMHO is an error. The markets have factored the turmoil into the price of Thai stocks and the exchange rate. Instead of doing what he did, he should have seized the political initiative by announcing a road map that will lead to elections within , say, six months; followed up by summoning all of the stakeholders to a meeting to kick start the process. An opportunity has been missed.

Khun Abhisit does not have many options left if this stand off is to be resolved peacefully, as we all hope.

Do you know that the military and police have been *asked* to disperse the demonstrators?

It is not the Thai way to use force, Thai against Thai, so maybe that is the reason that force is not being used.

If Abhisit was pre-occupied with the economy, don't you think he would have headed off to the ASEAN summit in Vietnam? Don't you think he would have stopped the protests a month ago when they started hurting the economy?

It is not the THAI WAY to use force Thai against Thai? You have ABSOLUTELY no idea what you are talking about! They slaughter each other wholesale gleefully. Go check your recent Thai history before you say the most foolish things I've ever read in my entire life. Google Thailand 1976 and thailand 1992 and Tak Bai 2004. Take a look at the pictures of horror and tell me it is not the Thai way to use force against Thais, they use the worst kind of force! Educate yourself.

[khunjamespittman]

The can never be a true democracy here as long as those people who are protesting now, are willing to sell their votes to the highest bidder. They are the ones that are the cause of it all because they do not understand what is going on or are only interested in how much cash they are going to get

The precurser for a "real" democracy requires understanding and responsibillity of the majority of the voters

So BKK please tell me where you got your immaculate wisdom?

I have seen any evidence of knowledge or for that matter any pertinent fact in your post.

Where did you get your information about what the majority stands for? I thought that was what a national referendum was for.

I think you are mistaken. You don't tell people what they understand nor impune their motives. Two previous elections have shown they are the majority and they are showing their responsibility by standing up to a minority who is trying to hold on to their power by escalating their provocative military and police actions to try to silence the Opposition.

Instead of attacking the character of the opposition you should use as much energy to work to get an agreement amongst the groups on a realistic set of plans that they can then negotiate an early national election to allow the peoples will to heard in their votes in an election observed by a group of independent international observers.

Then, after we have a real understanding of who the majority are I hope you will have the common sense to recognize whoever is the majority. Proclaiming a majority from thin air when intuition based previous performance indicates the contrary is just plain nonsense.

Please try with some positive input on resolving the problem.

Khun James, it's a well known fact that a lot of people receive money for voting for particular people.

It is also a well known fact that in the previous election (2007) the Thaksin party did NOT have a majority. And the election before that was declared invalid (before the coup).

It is also a well know fact that the current government represents the majority of Thailand.

And just for some positive input on resolving the problem, why don't the red shirts go home, put some political parties together that represent what they want, and get voted for in the next election.

edit: and instead of just attacking other peoples thoughts about the problems, "please try with some positive input on resolving the problem"

Ok peter, you are right, I should have got a plurality of the votes which is sufficient to win the election. How does that affect my post about BBKJohn post claiming a majority. From the fact that the elctions were won with a plurality means that BKKJohn assumption of a majority against the opposition would seem false based on past history. That was the point being made. Get out of the weeds and you'll see the trees and forests.

Your wife or boyfirend must really really hate trying to converse with you. Or maybe you are both peter an john?

[tigermonkey]

The can never be a true democracy here as long as those people who are protesting now, are willing to sell their votes to the highest bidder. They are the ones that are the cause of it all because they do not understand what is going on or are only interested in how much cash they are going to get

The precurser for a "real" democracy requires understanding and responsibillity of the majority of the voters

So BKK please tell me where you got your immaculate wisdom?

I have seen any evidence of knowledge or for that matter any pertinent fact in your post.

Where did you get your information about what the majority stands for? I thought that was what a national referendum was for.

I think you are mistaken. You don't tell people what they understand nor impune their motives. Two previous elections have shown they are the majority and they are showing their responsibility by standing up to a minority who is trying to hold on to their power by escalating their provocative military and police actions to try to silence the Opposition.

Instead of attacking the character of the opposition you should use as much energy to work to get an agreement amongst the groups on a realistic set of plans that they can then negotiate an early national election to allow the peoples will to heard in their votes in an election observed by a group of independent international observers.

Then, after we have a real understanding of who the majority are I hope you will have the common sense to recognize whoever is the majority. Proclaiming a majority from thin air when intuition based previous performance indicates the contrary is just plain nonsense.

Please try with some positive input on resolving the problem.

Khun James, it's a well known fact that a lot of people receive money for voting for particular people.

It is also a well known fact that in the previous election (2007) the Thaksin party did NOT have a majority. And the election before that was declared invalid (before the coup).

It is also a well know fact that the current government represents the majority of Thailand.

And just for some positive input on resolving the problem, why don't the red shirts go home, put some political parties together that represent what they want, and get voted for in the next election.

edit: and instead of just attacking other peoples thoughts about the problems, "please try with some positive input on resolving the problem"

At one time, it was " a well known fact " that the earth was flat .

More recently, it was "a well known fact " that we were rapidly heading into another ice age.

Let's stick to the facts -- poor people receive money from many parties, but it does NOT buy a vote. See my earlier post.

Yes, the PPP did not have a majority, but they had more votes ( and more importantly, more MP's) than any other party.

We have no ides who has the support of and " represents the majority of Thailand " -- perhaps we need an election ?

The red shirts went home and formed the PPP , who "represent what they want " -- and we all know what that caused, don't we ?

[Jimmu]

No -- mumbo-jumbo is a phrase used by those who are unwilling ( or perhaps mentally unable ) to understand the truth .

55+