Thai Government, Military Seen In Discord Over Protests

[webfact]

Government, Military Seen in Discord over Protests

BANGKOK: -- Images of heavily-armed red-shirt protesters battling off state authorities have begun to make rounds on foreign media outlets with international analysts pointing to discord between the military and the government as the reason for the failure to disband demonstrations.

The New York Times today ran a photograph of red-shirt demonstrators wielding heavy arms against soldiers attempting to dissolve their protests at the Khok Wua Intersection this past Saturday, an incident that ended in the death of 21 people and injuries to over 800.

The images were in the same vein as other photos and videos aired by media throughout the world showing that the red-shirt group has well-trained and well-armed members.

International media members have, however, pointed to a divide between the military and the government as the main cause for the failure to end the protests, reasoning that the military has chosen to disregard state orders and take serious action against the red-shirt mobs.

A German expert on Thailand has stated that after the 2006 coup that deposed former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, the military was able to acquire power and afford itself a level of autonomy from the government.

The analyst noted that events this past Saturday gave Army Commander-in-Chief General Anupong Paochinda the opportunity to either allow Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva's administration to fall or help to sustain it until the next military reshuffle in September, when his successor will be chosen.

Nonetheless, the analyst reminded that allowing the protest to continue only increases the possibility for more clashes and damage to the economy but cautioned that re-elections could place a pro-Thaksin party in power and leave the military open for retribution.

The analysis concluded by saying that the failure by the military to resolve the demonstration in an orderly fashion will make it extremely difficult for the Abhisit administration to stay in power long enough to reshuffle the Army ranks in a way favorable to General Anupong.

-- Tan Network 2010-04-12

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[TheOldWolf]

Anpoung lost his face big time and should resign.

[Chunky1]

Do you really want to see more fighting? The reds are armed with Ak47s and hand grenades. If there is another crackdown, thousands will could perish.

It could also result in terrorist attacks.

These problems cannot be solved with violence. Look what is going on in the South of Thailand.

[TheOldWolf]

Do you really want to see more fighting? The reds are armed with Ak47s and hand grenades. If there is another crackdown, thousands will could perish.

It could also result in terrorist attacks.

These problems cannot be solved with violence. Look what is going on in the South of Thailand.

I am not suggesting more fighting. I just said if the head of the army made such a fiasco as saturday, he must resign and military is not suppose to have any opinion about politics.

[asiawatcher]

Do you really want to see more fighting? The reds are armed with Ak47s and hand grenades. If there is another crackdown, thousands will could perish.

It could also result in terrorist attacks.

These problems cannot be solved with violence. Look what is going on in the South of Thailand.

The terrorist acts have been propagated by the Red Shirts - peaceful rallies with armed mobs. If some one fires high powered ordnance at you and you have shotguns with rubber bullets, what do YOU think the next move will be? It sure as hel_l WILL be violence and nothing surer. This country is on the brink of civil war and whether you are aware or not, the Yellow Shirts/PAD are now grouping to do what the Government is incapable of. Watch this space....

[richardt1808]

Agree with the above... watch this space.

The longer the security forces procrastinate, the worse things will be. They should use all reasonable methods to get the rabble off the streets.

[mic6ard]

The Reds have turned this into a revolt, not a demonstration with their ignorant of the law and inciting violence. The forces, both police and army have lost major face in this mess. They could have moved in with conviction and disperse the crowd, but they were hesitant and paid for it. How can the army just give ground to a bunch of civilian thugs. Right now there is a split in the army, with the ground troops not wanting to fight, but are being ordered too, the 'watermelon troopers'. So much for training.

Asianwatcher, I totally agree, the Yellows are going to come out in force if they feel that the government is too 'chicken' to do the right thing, and the way it's looking, we won't have to wait long.

Gen Chavalit should realize that dissolving the house right now would only bring the Yellow into the game. Is that what he wants? Hope not.

This is bigger than just the Red Vs Government, to solve this situation, leaders of all the group should get together. I'm talking about the PAD, UDD, etc.

Maybe have a combine government, with equal share in the seats, and the position of PM being appointed by His Majesty.

[wayne78]

Agree with the above... watch this space.

The longer the security forces procrastinate, the worse things will be. They should use all reasonable methods to get the rabble off the streets.

Richard, to an extent I agree with you. The softly softly approach failed and failed with disastorous consequences.

However, the only way forward to solve this, is through negociation otherwise it will be a weeping wound that will never heal.

[webfact]

PM Abhisit vows to stay on to solve country’s crisis

BANGKOK (TNA) -- Thai Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva on Monday vowed to stay on to resolve the country’s political crisis through political means and distinguish innocent protesters from ‘terrorists’ after 21 people were killed in Saturday's violent clashes between security forces and Red Shirts.

Key United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship (UDD) leader Jatuporn Prompan on Monday morning rejected further talks and renewed the Red Shirt demand for the premier to dissolve the House immediately, step down and leave the country, saying it is Thailand's only way out of the current crisis.

Mr Abhisit said during a live broadcast on national television Monday afternoon that his government will stay on to solve the country’s political conflict in two stages.

The premier said the government will first separate ‘innocent protesters’, who joined the demonstration to demand democracy and the elimination of social injustice, from persons whom he branded “terrorists” and urged the public not become a tool of those terrorists.

Mr Abhisit described the so-called terrorists as persons who seized opportunities during the mass rally inciting unrest to culminate in a ‘big change.’

If the government can distinguish between innocent protesters and terrorists, it will be able to launch appropriate measures to solve the chaos, the premier said.

The Thai government on Sunday asserted that a group of unidentified persons in black outfits and masks mingled with the red-shirted crowd and opened fire with M79 grenade launchers, M67 hand grenades and machine guns including AK47 assault rifles during Saturday's clashes between army personnel and anti-government Red Shirt protesters.

The emegency services said 21 people were killed and 863 persons, including more than 200 soldiers, were wounded in the day-long confrontation.

At the same time, the prime minister said regarding the demands of the protesters about injustices in Thai society or issues of democracy, such problems must be resolved by political means.

“I and the coalition parties have regularly discussed about it,” said Mr Abhisit. “We will bring the issues which had been raised during the talks with Red Shirt leaders and adjust them as solutions to the crisis.”

The two-pronged approach must be carried out in parallel. Now every ministry and the coalition parties are working in unity to solve the conflict, according to the premier.

Mr Abhisit said that a probe committee will be set up to find the truth over Saturday's violent clash and the government is ready to co-operate with independent institutions such as the National Human Rights Commission (NHRC) to conduct an investigation.

“Once the facts are established and things are clarified, there must be a responsibility,” reaffirmed Mr Abhisit.

The Red shirt leaders however immediately rejected the probe panel to be set up by the government, saying it is an attempt to prolong the

administration.

The UDD leaders insisted that the premier must dissolve the House and leave Thailand immediately. Otherwise the Red Shirts will follow the premier everywhere he goes.

Earlier UDD key leader Jatuporn said that members of parliament of the opposition Puea Thai Party are filing a complaint to police against Mr Abhisit, Deputy Prime Minister Suthep who oversees national security and Army chief Anupong for intentionally ordering the killing of people at Kok Wua intersection, leading to the deaths of Red Shirt protesters.

Mr Jatuporn said he believes the Red Shirt death toll is not just 21, but that more corpses were hidden.

The UDD leader accused the government of distorting information and insisted that no third party intervened to cause unrest.

There will be no more negotiation, reasserted Mr Jatuporn, the Red Shirts will continue their protests until Mr Abhisit dissolve the House, which is the only way out.

“Sixteen Red Shirts have died. Do they want 32 more lives before dissolving the House?” Mr Jatuporn asked.

Meanwhile, Army chief Anupong Paochinda confirmed the army has no plan to disperse the protesters, saying the ongoing conflict should be resolved through House dissolution.

He dismissed criticisms that the army did not put much effort into its operations in guarding the Thaicom Satellite TV ground station and trying

to clear the protest sites at Ratchaprasong intersection and at Phan Fa Bridge.

“If the army goes ahead with full operation (to crack down protesters), it will not be able to live in this society,” said Gen Anupong.

Speaking about the clash at the Khok Wua intersection, Gen Anupong said an unidentified armed group fired at soldiers and soldiers had to retreat because they could not fight back for fear of the safety of innocent people.

“I think that it should end with House dissolution and the timeframe should be discussed later during negotiation as it is related to constitutional amendment,” Gen Anupong said.

As some people blamed the army for the clashes, Gen Anupong said he believed the world community knew that an armed militant was involved in

the incident. He affirmed that soldiers did not hurt the people. The authorities are seeking evidence on that and he hoped foreign media can be

relied on.

The army chief also said that there was no rift in the army but perhaps about five to ten former military officers may work for someone else and have launched an attack on soldiers. (TNA)

-- TNA 2010-04-12

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[vicco]

Agree with the above... watch this space.

The longer the security forces procrastinate, the worse things will be. They should use all reasonable methods to get the rabble off the streets.

What would you suggest? They have tried waiting them out. They have tried to force them ....they are still there in what looks like larger numbers than ever.

It's starting to look like the "rabble" is on the government side not the redshirts side. So far the Reds have called every bluff, met every threat head on and

seem to be about even in the propaganda war. If you read the early threads on TV...a lot of ex-pats (self appointed experts) were giving the Reds a few days to a week before

the total failure of this movement. Just goes to show how little they really know about these characters. These are tough people...these are not the kind of run home to mamma protesters we are used to getting at G7/G8 meetings. They could kill five thousand of them...and 10 thousand more would come to replace them.

[Old Man River]

If you want democracy and don't want military coups, do you really want to see the military marching down the streets? In my country (US) and most of yours, if demonstrations get out of hand the police step in and end it. Why aren't the police doing their jobs?

[TheOldWolf]

"Mr Jatuporn said he believes the Red Shirt death toll is not just 21, but that more corpses were hidden."

Who hide them in that case? His own people, the hospital? the army had enough job taking care of their on dead and wounded.

[thecottonmill]

Hi all,

A genuine questions because I really don't know too much about all this...but you guys are mentioning the yellow shirts...well if that's not the police and not the army...who is that exactly and what kind of power/numbers do they have?

Thanks

[meom]

If you want democracy and don't want military coups, do you really want to see the military marching down the streets? In my country (US) and most of yours, if demonstrations get out of hand the police step in and end it. Why aren't the police doing their jobs?

Not sure but maybe because of ISOC the army is in charge?

[britmaveric]

Why aren't the police doing their jobs?

Because the BIB can't and rather be taking bribes.

[TheOldWolf]

Why aren't the police doing their jobs?

Because the BIB can't and rather be taking bribes.

There times when we agree

[wayne78]

Why aren't the police doing their jobs?

Because the BIB can't and rather be taking bribes.

Just who is the 'BIB'?

The police have little will to do anythig of any real affect and most support the Reds and in any event, the gov told both the police and the military to go softly softly on the protestors. The military had all they needed to clear the streets on Saturday night, except the will as they had been told by the govt to try not to cause casulties. One hand tied behind their back, fighting a mob, it all went pear shaped as it was bond to do.

[TheOldWolf]

Why aren't the police doing their jobs?

Because the BIB can't and rather be taking bribes.

Just who is the 'BIB'?

The police have little will to do anythig of any real affect and most support the Reds and in any event, the gov told both the police and the military to go softly softly on the protestors. The military had all they needed to clear the streets on Saturday night, except the will as they had been told by the govt to try not to cause casulties. One hand tied behind their back, fighting a mob, it all went pear shaped as it was bond to do.

I think one important thing also failed, intelligence service. If they had a proper intelligence service, worth the name. The army would have know that they where going to face live rounds granades, molotiv coctails etc. But the intellegence service seems to be as poor as rest of army and police.

[selftaopath]

If you want democracy and don't want military coups, do you really want to see the military marching down the streets? In my country (US) and most of yours, if demonstrations get out of hand the police step in and end it. Why aren't the police doing their jobs?

"Thai Police" LOLOL ah what a JOKE. Perhaps the only thing they are accomplished at is taking bribes and keeping traffic from any form of order. I firmly believe they should NEVER be called/referred to as "Royal" Thai Police.

[Old Man River]

Why aren't the police doing their jobs?

Because the BIB can't and rather be taking bribes.

Just who is the 'BIB'?

The police have little will to do anythig of any real affect and most support the Reds and in any event, the gov told both the police and the military to go softly softly on the protestors. The military had all they needed to clear the streets on Saturday night, except the will as they had been told by the govt to try not to cause casulties. One hand tied behind their back, fighting a mob, it all went pear shaped as it was bond to do.

I agree. One hand tied behind their backs while being shot at by terrorists (not the Reds). Khattaya has taken credit for this, but few believe him. Are the police involved? I don't know, but for sure, as a group they have sat this one out.

[vicco]

Why aren't the police doing their jobs?

Because the BIB can't and rather be taking bribes.

Just who is the 'BIB'?

The police have little will to do anythig of any real affect and most support the Reds and in any event, the gov told both the police and the military to go softly softly on the protestors. The military had all they needed to clear the streets on Saturday night, except the will as they had been told by the govt to try not to cause casulties. One hand tied behind their back, fighting a mob, it all went pear shaped as it was bond to do.

Armies are trained to fight armies not civilian protesters....that is the function of a police force (The BIB in this case). The BIB (Police) has shown themselves to be totally ineffective and more on the side of the Reds than against. What to do...no police action, army fuc_ked up bigtime......call the Reds in and try to cut a deal of some kind.

What other options are left? Shoot more people, civilian and military, or make a deal.....up to you!

[mccw]

Why aren't the police doing their jobs?

Because the BIB can't and rather be taking bribes.

There times when we agree

police are clearly not trained or equiped to deal with large scale demonstrations, let alone facing down those with assualt rifles and grenades!

Army involvement is only option.

Red army needs to be squashed, not just in bangkok but nation wide, search all members houses for weapons and those with jailed for 5 or 10 years minimum; people need to understand that violence as a means to politcal end is unacceptable.

In chiang mai we've had a spate of bombings recently, quite obviously a faction of reds, like those bombing and shooting in bangkok; its a just luck that no ones been killed.

If its not nipped in the bud and casualties stated mounting, retaliations would occure, spiral of violence, something akkin to the south in central and northern could become the norm, ecomony fuc_ked, mass unnemployment, not able to move about with fear of becoming a statistic; red supporters think about how life gunna be then! worse for sure!

[moresomekl]

Why aren't the police doing their jobs?

Because the BIB can't and rather be taking bribes.

There times when we agree

police are clearly not trained or equiped to deal with large scale demonstrations, let alone facing down those with assualt rifles and grenades!

Army involvement is only option.

Red army needs to be squashed, not just in bangkok but nation wide, search all members houses for weapons and those with jailed for 5 or 10 years minimum; people need to understand that violence as a means to politcal end is unacceptable.

In chiang mai we've had a spate of bombings recently, quite obviously a faction of reds, like those bombing and shooting in bangkok; its a just luck that no ones been killed.

If its not nipped in the bud and casualties stated mounting, retaliations would occure, spiral of violence, something akkin to the south in central and northern could become the norm, ecomony fuc_ked, mass unnemployment, not able to move about with fear of becoming a statistic; red supporters think about how life gunna be then! worse for sure!

This is ridiculous and pure red bashing .

Have yu seen the videos , red protesters shaking hands with soldiers ,

and dancing on the music provided by the army .

I am so tired of the bullshit and lies

[mccw]

End of the year was a reasonable compramise offer and all this bloodshed could have been avoided. Shame on red leaders for use aspirations (and lives) of the poor for their own greed ends.

If anyone bothered to read the democrats policies they'd see that they've actualy gone further than Thaksin did to help the poor by instituting free education for all, state pensions for the elderly and attempting to break the cycle of debt which farmers face (much of this debt was made worse or created by mr ts gov policy). Also the proposed land tax, would largely affect the very people the reds say they have a problem with, and is earmarked to pay for projects to help those less well off.

Red leaders want the poor to remain uneducated and controlable, tied to the powerful local big men rice merchants through debt. This is all about protecting the interests of the red ayamata; so pitty the poor reds and such a shame for thailand that they dont realise how they are being used.

(i said this before but feel it is relevent)

[wayne78]

If you want democracy and don't want military coups, do you really want to see the military marching down the streets? In my country (US) and most of yours, if demonstrations get out of hand the police step in and end it. Why aren't the police doing their jobs?

"Thai Police" LOLOL ah what a JOKE. Perhaps the only thing they are accomplished at is taking bribes and keeping traffic from any form of order. I firmly believe they should NEVER be called/referred to as "Royal" Thai Police.

I agree. the thai police is a largly inaffectual bunch, more interested in lining their own pocket than looking after people, protecting life and property and defending the law. Over the 25 years I have been going to thaiand i have learnt one thing or sure. never...and i mean never count on the thai police to serve you as we would expect any police force [ should read farce] to do in the west. they are too interested in their own graft and corrution to do anything real about anything. This is the sad reality and of course now the thai government is learning the same lesson.

Be that as it may, both police and military were on orders from the government to go softly on the mob, so it really is Abisit who needs to take responsibility.

[britmaveric]

:D

[mccw]

This is ridiculous and pure red bashing .

Have yu seen the videos , red protesters shaking hands with soldiers

and dancing on the music provided by the army .

I am so tired of the bullshit and lies

I dont understand how anyone who has a real knowledge of the facts can side with the reds.

I'm all for helping the poor and social welfare, which is why i support abhisit's policies.

[britmaveric]

^well who will you support when Abhisit is gone w/cohorts?

[johncitizen]

EC recommends Democrat dissolution, PAD to rally on the 18th, final decision in the hands of the Constitutional Court.

Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, Thailand has come the full circle.

[anotherpeter]

EC recommends Democrat dissolution, PAD to rally on the 18th, final decision in the hands of the Constitutional Court.

Ashes to ashes, dust to dust, Thailand has come the full circle.

So, with the Democrats gone (as a party), most Dem MPs (only the executive will be banned) will move to a new party or one of the existing smaller parties.

What will the reds do if the ex-Dems and the smaller parties can still form government (ie majority of MPs)?

edit: webfact will probably start a new thread, so i'll ask that again there. already have. don't respond this here.

Edited April 12, 2010 by anotherpeter