Advice Please re. Farming Isaan Land

[bina]

animal husbandry is 24/7/365

unless u have very good hired help/family workers and a compliant vet

i'm going to the states for two weeks in octover; had to plan around birthing, breeding and tourist seasons so those two weeks were it.... my kid will just miss a bit of school cause couldnt also wedge in school holiday time.....

[RamdomChances]

I was wondering 20,000 baht of hay is a lot LAUGHTER.

Yep sure is about 40 bails a day and its started going up in price now, with the coming of rainy season.

We only have about 60 rai, which I dont think enough for us to grow all our own food, but I should be able to cut down on the ammount of "hay" I buy especialy in the rainy season (when it is expensive) I usually get my hay a bit cheaper as we buy by the lorry load (350-550 bails a time), the added advantage is that its delivered and off-loaded free.

I've been doing this about 4 years now, starting with about 10 head. A "mature" farm will have about equal numbers of calfs to milkers, but as most of my milkers were bought in we are still not there yet. The first batch I bought, were all cows that had just had calfs(as the milk production is at the highest then) Big mistake as it takes anything from 2-6 months to get them pregnant again, then an other 9 months before they drop, so it was the best part of a year before we really had any calfs.I paid too much for them as well, but did'nt really know anything about it back then.

With three beef you should be able to find enough "grazing" for them for most of the year. What sort of thing are you looking for,calfs, pregnant females ect.

Is the milk industry pretty much the same here as in the states, a far as the hours are concerned?

I remember some very wealthy milk producing farms in California, but it was 16 to 18 hours a day seven days a week. They had beautiful homes and cars, but they never left the farm. I very serious comittment.

I dont really know what the milk industry is like in the states. Here its roughly 6-9 in the morning and 3-6 in the evening, thats milking, feeding, and cleaning any extras to do with the land have to be done in the day. When we opened I learned how to do everything myself, the biggest tie was actually transport as you have to send the milk to the co-op yourself and we only had one pick-up.

As time has gone by we have bought a dedicated pick-up for the farm and employed staff (4 at the moment) and employ "casual" labour when there is a lot of extra work on. I have good staff and the family lives here as well, even when we are'nt here we are in touch everyday. So I just tend to do the "managment" stuff and usually act as our own vet, but I'm pretty free to do what I want really(although I still worry about the place if I'm away for a long time. The new farm is big enough to cope with about 150 milkers which without buying any more in should take me about an other 3-4 years to fill.

Oh shsss dont mention "wealthy milk producing farms" as most of the posters here think that anything outside of BKK, Pattaya ect is are just "poor" people living in little shanty villages

Edited June 9, 2005 by RamdomChances

[ray23]

I was wondering 20,000 baht of hay is a lot LAUGHTER.

Yep sure is about 40 bails a day and its started going up in price now, with the coming of rainy season.

We only have about 60 rai, which I dont think enough for us to grow all our own food, but I should be able to cut down on the ammount of "hay" I buy especialy in the rainy season (when it is expensive) I usually get my hay a bit cheaper as we buy by the lorry load (350-550 bails a time), the added advantage is that its delivered and off-loaded free.

I've been doing this about 4 years now, starting with about 10 head. A "mature" farm will have about equal numbers of calfs to milkers, but as most of my milkers were bought in we are still not there yet. The first batch I bought, were all cows that had just had calfs(as the milk production is at the highest then) Big mistake as it takes anything from 2-6 months to get them pregnant again, then an other 9 months before they drop, so it was the best part of a year before we really had any calfs.I paid too much for them as well, but did'nt really know anything about it back then.

With three beef you should be able to find enough "grazing" for them for most of the year. What sort of thing are you looking for,calfs, pregnant females ect.

Is the milk industry pretty much the same here as in the states, a far as the hours are concerned?

I remember some very wealthy milk producing farms in California, but it was 16 to 18 hours a day seven days a week. They had beautiful homes and cars, but they never left the farm. I very serious comittment.

I dont really know what the milk industry is like in the states. Here its roughly 6-9 in the morning and 3-6 in the evening, thats milking, feeding, and cleaning any extras to do with the land have to be done in the day. When we opened I learned how to do everything myself, the biggest tie was actually transport as you have to send the milk to the co-op yourself and we only had one pick-up.

As time has gone by we have bought a dedicated pick-up for the farm and employed staff (4 at the moment) and employ "casual" labour when there is a lot of extra work on. I have good staff and the family lives here as well, even when we are'nt here we are in touch everyday. So I just tend to do the "managment" stuff and usually act as our own vet, but I'm pretty free to do what I want really(although I still worry about the place if I'm away for a long time. The new farm is big enough to cope with about 150 milkers which without buying any more in should take me about an other 3-4 years to fill.

Oh shsss dont mention "wealthy milk producing farms" as most of the posters here think that anything outside of BKK, Pattaya ect is are just "poor" people living in little shanty villages

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok I won't tell if you don't.

Evrything has a learning curve, I think i'm my sophomaore year of Water Bufflao University, tuition can be very high LOL.

I'm going to try a feedlot operation, for the high end beef market. You buy from a Co-op and then do the fattening up process. So much smaller then what your doing.

[RamdomChances]

So you just get paid for the weight increase? Make sure you give them worming/parisite shots they are'nt expensive but a lot of the thai beef farmers dont bother.

[ray23]

So you just get paid for the weight increase? Make sure you give them worming/parisite shots they are'nt expensive but a lot of the thai beef farmers dont bother.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Good Advice I appreciate it

[Issangeorge]

I was wondering 20,000 baht of hay is a lot LAUGHTER.

Yep sure is about 40 bails a day and its started going up in price now, with the coming of rainy season.

We only have about 60 rai, which I dont think enough for us to grow all our own food, but I should be able to cut down on the ammount of "hay" I buy especialy in the rainy season (when it is expensive) I usually get my hay a bit cheaper as we buy by the lorry load (350-550 bails a time), the added advantage is that its delivered and off-loaded free.

I've been doing this about 4 years now, starting with about 10 head. A "mature" farm will have about equal numbers of calfs to milkers, but as most of my milkers were bought in we are still not there yet. The first batch I bought, were all cows that had just had calfs(as the milk production is at the highest then) Big mistake as it takes anything from 2-6 months to get them pregnant again, then an other 9 months before they drop, so it was the best part of a year before we really had any calfs.I paid too much for them as well, but did'nt really know anything about it back then.

With three beef you should be able to find enough "grazing" for them for most of the year. What sort of thing are you looking for,calfs, pregnant females ect.

Is the milk industry pretty much the same here as in the states, a far as the hours are concerned?

I remember some very wealthy milk producing farms in California, but it was 16 to 18 hours a day seven days a week. They had beautiful homes and cars, but they never left the farm. I very serious comittment.

I dont really know what the milk industry is like in the states. Here its roughly 6-9 in the morning and 3-6 in the evening, thats milking, feeding, and cleaning any extras to do with the land have to be done in the day. When we opened I learned how to do everything myself, the biggest tie was actually transport as you have to send the milk to the co-op yourself and we only had one pick-up.

As time has gone by we have bought a dedicated pick-up for the farm and employed staff (4 at the moment) and employ "casual" labour when there is a lot of extra work on. I have good staff and the family lives here as well, even when we are'nt here we are in touch everyday. So I just tend to do the "managment" stuff and usually act as our own vet, but I'm pretty free to do what I want really(although I still worry about the place if I'm away for a long time. The new farm is big enough to cope with about 150 milkers which without buying any more in should take me about an other 3-4 years to fill.

Oh shsss dont mention "wealthy milk producing farms" as most of the posters here think that anything outside of BKK, Pattaya ect is are just "poor" people living in little shanty villages

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok I won't tell if you don't.

Evrything has a learning curve, I think i'm my sophomaore year of Water Bufflao University, tuition can be very high LOL.

I'm going to try a feedlot operation, for the high end beef market. You buy from a Co-op and then do the fattening up process. So much smaller then what your doing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would be interested in raising feed lot cattle. I live in the South East part of Kalasin, closser to eather Mukdahan or Roi-et city than Kalasin city. Do you know of any co-ops that would be close to me. Also do you know of any butchers that can butcher a cow into Farang style cuts? Thanks Issangeorge.

[ray23]

I was wondering 20,000 baht of hay is a lot LAUGHTER.

Yep sure is about 40 bails a day and its started going up in price now, with the coming of rainy season.

We only have about 60 rai, which I dont think enough for us to grow all our own food, but I should be able to cut down on the ammount of "hay" I buy especialy in the rainy season (when it is expensive) I usually get my hay a bit cheaper as we buy by the lorry load (350-550 bails a time), the added advantage is that its delivered and off-loaded free.

I've been doing this about 4 years now, starting with about 10 head. A "mature" farm will have about equal numbers of calfs to milkers, but as most of my milkers were bought in we are still not there yet. The first batch I bought, were all cows that had just had calfs(as the milk production is at the highest then) Big mistake as it takes anything from 2-6 months to get them pregnant again, then an other 9 months before they drop, so it was the best part of a year before we really had any calfs.I paid too much for them as well, but did'nt really know anything about it back then.

With three beef you should be able to find enough "grazing" for them for most of the year. What sort of thing are you looking for,calfs, pregnant females ect.

Is the milk industry pretty much the same here as in the states, a far as the hours are concerned?

I remember some very wealthy milk producing farms in California, but it was 16 to 18 hours a day seven days a week. They had beautiful homes and cars, but they never left the farm. I very serious comittment.

I dont really know what the milk industry is like in the states. Here its roughly 6-9 in the morning and 3-6 in the evening, thats milking, feeding, and cleaning any extras to do with the land have to be done in the day. When we opened I learned how to do everything myself, the biggest tie was actually transport as you have to send the milk to the co-op yourself and we only had one pick-up.

As time has gone by we have bought a dedicated pick-up for the farm and employed staff (4 at the moment) and employ "casual" labour when there is a lot of extra work on. I have good staff and the family lives here as well, even when we are'nt here we are in touch everyday. So I just tend to do the "managment" stuff and usually act as our own vet, but I'm pretty free to do what I want really(although I still worry about the place if I'm away for a long time. The new farm is big enough to cope with about 150 milkers which without buying any more in should take me about an other 3-4 years to fill.

Oh shsss dont mention "wealthy milk producing farms" as most of the posters here think that anything outside of BKK, Pattaya ect is are just "poor" people living in little shanty villages

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ok I won't tell if you don't.

Evrything has a learning curve, I think i'm my sophomaore year of Water Bufflao University, tuition can be very high LOL.

I'm going to try a feedlot operation, for the high end beef market. You buy from a Co-op and then do the fattening up process. So much smaller then what your doing.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would be interested in raising feed lot cattle. I live in the South East part of Kalasin, closser to eather Mukdahan or Roi-et city than Kalasin city. Do you know of any co-ops that would be close to me. Also do you know of any butchers that can butcher a cow into Farang style cuts? Thanks Issangeorge.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

As far as I can tell the only Co-Op is the one Sukunakoren some day I will learn how to spell that. Anyway it can meet your nees but at the moment it is closed to membership. But I think it will opne up again around October. In the intrim you can get good beef there.

[JackPhuWiang]

Hi all, Im brand spanking new to this forum and have been reading with great interest about farming Isan land.

My wifes family are currently planting rice but have asked if we would like to do something with 30 rai that is currently unused.

They originally asked for us to finance a Eucalyptus Plantation, they favoured this as most of the villagers that grew Euc's before have now turned to Rubber Trees - thus creating a fresh demand for Euc's. After reading previous strings on this forum it seems clear that Euc's have some definate impact on the immediate land. The land is, apparently too high, to hold sufficient water for rice crops.

Can anyone give me a clue as what may be the way forward to use this land, Euc's, Rubber, other crops or even something such as livestock or fish farming.

Any ideas gladly welcome. Regards

Hi back, I understand that a forage legume named Cavalcade is good for forage and hay. Stylo 180 is another. Regards, Jack

[Korat Correct]

What a fascinating topic. I had no idea there were so many expat farmers or budding farmers.

All the obvious pitfalls have been covered and by trial and error most seem to be succeeding in enjoying the hard work involved.

Its a pity the country does not have an cohesive agricultural policy or local farm advisory service to match it, though the Agricultural Dept of the local University can be helpful. What is the animal health service like though?

No Farm Coops or Guaranteed prices exist either and the markets are not well established. Middle men abound!

Farming is a fickle business because when you start production you often don't know what the market will be like when you want sell,and you have to sell when the crop is ready,if storage is a problem.

For a market there must be buyers and sellers and too many of one and too few of the other leads to a collapse in price.Some markets are a long way from the farm.

Knowing your market is vital,but for those wanting to farm a few acres/rai the first priority may be to become self sufficient in as many things as possible.

Irrigation is vital, as has been said,and with water most crops can be grown on a small scale,soil conditions permitting. Rearing animals for ones own consumption is a little more tricky. The processing facilities are somewhat primitve!! Butchering and storage costs may be high, but eating ones own produce gives real satisfaction.

Keep the experiences coming with comment on the successes and failures.

[chownah]

In my village if we butcher an animal instead of selling to the guy who butchers for a living we tell everyone what's up and you agree on a price for various types of meat and everyone says about how much meat etc. that they want.....then everyone gets together and you slaughter and butcher the pig in someone's yard. It is not expensive at all...in fact it is the cheapest meat you can get usually...but...the quality depends on how well it was fed so this is variable....everyone knows who raised the pig so that means they also know how well it was taken care of...or not.... There is some organ that is usually eaten raw while still warm from the animal...its good...wish I knew what it was...maybe I'll ask the wife and post it later. If a sow gives birth to a stillborn piglet they eat that too....and even pigs not big enough to sell but that die are butchered at someone's house and eaten....people claim they know when a dead pig is ok to eat or not...I'm not so sure. Seems like fewer people are raising pigs these days, probably because if you buy all your pig food then you really don't make any money and if your pig dies then you end up loosing money...too much risk for too little reward.....and they stink stink stink!!

Edited July 7, 2006 by chownah

[bina]

chownah:: rule number one:;; NEVER EAT A STILLBORN, ESPECIALLY WHEN THERE IS BRUCELLOSIS IN THAILAND AND THEY ARE NOT VACCINATED FOR IT (READ THERE WAS AN OUTBREAK RECENTLY DONT REMEMBER WHERE) VERY VERY IMPORTANT : ALSO STILLBIRTHS CAN ALSO MEAN : CHLAMYDIA, TOXOPLASMOSIS ETC ALL ZOONOSES FOR PEOPLE....

the liver is great when straight from the pig.... i do worry about trichanosis though!

[chownah]

Bina,

Yeah, the locals know that I don't eat animals unless they are slaughtered when healthy. If they are roasting something else they warn me right away. I think it is the tip of the liver that we eat fresh from the pig....I never seem to be at the right place at the right time to see exactly where it comes from but it looks like liver and tastes like it too but the flavor and texture are more delicate. All the pigs in my village are raised on concrete slabs 100% so I think that trichonosis is not a problem.....is this right?

[teletiger]

A few things I'd like to add from my own experiences so far as a feedlotter.

Firstly......NEVER eat any animal that has died of unknown causes. It's not free meat....It's taking a big chance.

Irrigation: Most of the ground water in Issan has a high salt content. It will keep grass alive, but growth will be minimal. We sank a 40 metre well, fed it to a 25,000 litre tank to irrigate 25 rai. We watered every 3 days from end December until Febuary.....grass stayed green and maybe 2 inches growth. Within 10 days of a wet Febuary day, the grass had grown 6 inches.

So the plan now is to dig out our small pond to 1 rai and 10 metres deep, before September.

Grass: Native grasses in Thailand are very fast growing with rain, but are very low in protien (4/6%)

Grow a hybrid brachiaria or other high protien type. Inter-seed it with a legume stylo/centro.

The hybrid will give you 14/18% protien and the legumes 24% protien. The longer any grass grows the faster the protien number drops. We cut ours at 12/14 inches and figure we get maximum protien. Also the faster growing grass tends to shade out the legume. Costs us more in diesel but keeps the pasture in top condition. After every cut we add 10 kilos of urea per rai. (46/0/0). The plan is to rest each pasture for 2 months annually and add 1 ton manure per rai.

Cattle: Brahman are the most widely available bulls to feedlot. Aquiring a good quality stock will be a challenge. They are very slow maturing animals:24/30 months. DON'T buy them too young. You will waste feed on them growing bone. Aim for 18/20 months (5 ft at the tailbone on average) and skinny. Make sure they are eager to feed. Any that hang back from a full trough, discard.

Please realise that you will (99%) be buying bulls. These boys are rough with each other and on the containment that you build for them. Don't skimp and build it strong enough for Rhinos. We gave up on all steel, and went for heavy steel posts 2 metres apart with thick bamboo cross members. They can break up the bamboo and it only costs us 20 Baht per section to replace

Market: Liveweight bulls, over 500 kilos, at present are fetching 46/47 Baht per kilo. Anything under this will only get you 42/45 Baht. Brahman are only hamburger meat. Don't expect to get steaks off these boys.

Feeding: To get a bull to 500 kilos you will have to feed some dry food. (unless you can wait 2 years.) We finish ours (3 months) on 5 kilos per day dry food (5 baht per kilo) plus ad lib cut grass.

With our staff costs and other expenses, we barely break even. I'm retired so it gives me something to do. I couldn't live well off it as a business.

Now that most of you have stopped reading in April I saw 2 dairy x charolais bulls on a farm and bought them. They were 8 months old, in good condition and cost me 9,500 Baht. In the 10 weeks I've had them they have flourished on grass only. They were maybe 200 kilos when I bought them,

they are now 300 kilos minimum. They're growing like weeds, at minimum cost. I figure with 3 months finishing on a hot feed (corn based) they will finish out at 600 kilos at 16 months. As hamburger I can get 28,000 Baht per animal, at a cost to me of 15,000 Baht net.

Now this I can turn into a business that pays.

Dairy X charolais should be high quality beef......at 120 Baht per kilo hanging weight (very cheap) would come to 43,200 Baht (360 x 120).

Would someone please burst this little bubble of mine

Proper slaughter, proper butchering, and decent marketing are real hurdles. Any others?

Please excuse the length of this diatribe.

regards

[bina]

the bulls for slaughter, are they castrated?? or stay as 'boys'?? i always thought that in the states, etc, all males for slaughter have their balls off (either by rubber banding or that little equiptment thingy that pinches them out) although in here in isael because of keeping kosher and halal (muslim kosher)i think here they might not do that...

and wouldnt that change the quality and mass of the meat (castrated means softer meat?)

[chownah]

Bina,

Around here they don't seem to castrate bulls...I've never seen one....but then there are no serious cattle people here...just small time farmers with small holdings....some with a few (from 2 to 10) cows. In the US I think they castrate the calves at a certain stage of maturity...don't know when that is....and the result is called a steer. I think if you wait until maturity and then castrate them you end up with an ox....but not sure.

I know they castrate pigs because my uncle raises piglets for sale and I've seeen him do it.

Edited July 9, 2006 by chownah

[Gary A]

I was born and raised in Ohio. We have quite a few larger dairy operations there. I can tell you that it a 24/7 operation. Trying to do it yourself would be a killer. You would be trapped. The best operations were run by working partners or by working brothers. The hired help ALWAYS caused a drop in milk production.

Believe it or not Holstein steers make very good beef. The bulls are castrated and raised under roof. The neighbor boys swore that it was being in the sun that caused tough beef as much as the diet. Those steers were raised mostly on clover hay and corn silage. They were finally fed out on grain. I'm not sure about the sun part but it was REALLY good beef. Most of the dairy cattle in Ohio are Holstein.

[teletiger]

the bulls for slaughter, are they castrated?? or stay as 'boys'?? i always thought that in the states, etc, all males for slaughter have their balls off (either by rubber banding or that little equiptment thingy that pinches them out) although in here in isael because of keeping kosher and halal (muslim kosher)i think here they might not do that...

and wouldnt that change the quality and mass of the meat (castrated means softer meat?)

95% of all bull calves born in the West are castrated. Normally in the first week of birth. Banding and cutting probably runs 50-50. That "equipment thingy" is a burdizzier. it squeezes the cord leading to the testicle. Not very popular in small calves as it's easy to miss one. Feedlotters prefer steers as they are more docile and not so rough on equipment. Castrating after weaning age (6/7 months) is considered cruel as it is painful. Also castrating bulls at a later age will supress their feeding for about a month, putting them behind. Never heard of the softer meat theory. Working bulls will be tougher fleshed because of the heavy workload. Virgin bulls should be same quality as steers.

[bina]

so what do thai feedlotters do with the bulls?? are they castrated or not?? with goats (bucks) it makes them 'wethers' and the meat is less 'smelly' as they dont have the buck odour... and they fill out differently... although israel as i said before , due to religious 'problems' , dont castrate unless there is a medical reason to do so... so bucks are slaughtered not past the 8th month or they stink...

[teletiger]

so what do thai feedlotters do with the bulls?? are they castrated or not?? with goats (bucks) it makes them 'wethers' and the meat is less 'smelly' as they dont have the buck odour... and they fill out differently... although israel as i said before , due to religious 'problems' , dont castrate unless there is a medical reason to do so... so bucks are slaughtered not past the 8th month or they stink...

Very few people in Thailand castrate them. I know 1 guy who did it when he first started out. He's given it up now though. For older bulls you need a chute, headgate and at least 3 people.

regards

[Korat Correct]

This interesting topic is getting more practical by the day.

From what I have seen the Brahman bulls are unwanted and sold off for meat at 6 months at about 150-200 kg. In this case castration isn't an issue and nor is the darker meat. Its almost like veal and is what you see for sale in the markets at +/- 100bht/kg. Killing out will be just over 50% of the live weight so they don't make much money on the carcase.

In the UKcalves are normally castrated within one week of birth, to avoid a growth check if done later. The buyers don't like stressed animals either which bulls tend to become as they get older which turns their meat darker. This is quite apart from the management issues.

The quality meat that can be had in farang haunts in Korat comes from older bull beef and is very dark.

The Brahman cattle are mainly kept as a status symbol. Wealth being multiplied by the number of cows a man owns. They have their uses too and its the heifer calves the farmer wants. A six month bull calf might fetch 6-8000 bht whereas a heifer would make 20,000bht plus and thats income.

The Thai French Co operating out of Sakon Nakhon uses continental beef crosses, I understand. I want to see some of the 200 farmers who supply them with 18month old + beef. They would be a good place to start for anyone interested in getting a beef production unit going here.

[RamdomChances]

Some great posts teletiger, I've often thought about getting into beef as well as dairy and would agreee with your methods on buying and feeding 100%. Russi grass with stylo or centro seems the way to go. Never had much sucess with leugems and the few bits of ruzzi I planted were swamped with the local stuff (probably my fault in taking short cuts while planting). I'm getting great results with "jumbo" forage sorhgam, its a bit lower in protien but makes up for it in bulk. I've got so much of it I really need to make some silage.

I've done the figures lots of times for beef and to me they just dont work out especialy when you add in transport costs.

I've got irrigation much on the same lines as you. I think you may find that watering every 3 days is just not enough, but my attempts have not been a raging sucsess either although I did manage to get about 10 rai of jumbo "up and running" before the rainy season so we were cuttin about a month-6 weeks before "naturaly" planted stuff. I use the big 1 inch sprinklers, with a decent pump (mines 4 hp) you only need about 3-4 to cover one rai but you need 2 inch feeder pipe and work on about 1 hp pump for every sprinkler head. I've got 4 but moving them and the piping around is a real pain. I think I'm just going to put in semi permenant 2 inch feeder pipe and just try for about 6 rai that should be avalible all season. I've found with dairy that even feeding rice straw during the dry seaon that just a little bit of fresh gras makes a huge differance. The trouble with a pond is that during the rrainy season its full but mine dry's out during the dry season when I would need the water from it.

A few people around here are getting into charolais from what I know it seems better profit, I've seen a few charolais crosses in dairy farms as well.

As for castration no one I know does it for beef animals, I'm sure I read somewhere that they grow quicker when castrated but not sure. Still born's/dead calfs go to the dogs (they will find then even if you bury them). Dead cattle are sold to a local guy, I dont know what he does with them but I've always been a bit wary buying beef form the local market as a result and we sell the after birth localy (as long as we get to it before the dogs), I actually give the after birth to my staff and they sell is as a bit of a bonus.

Fenceing I agreee with you, not sure bamboo is better but certianly cheaper (we have loads of it backed up with electric wire). I did some with steel and 4 inch concrete posts, as the concrete has no give in it quite a few have been broken, steel posts are better IMO. All steel fencing is just reall expansive (I must have 100's of meters of fencing).

Gary

Trying to do it yourself would be a killer. You would be trapped. The best operations were run by working partners or by working brothers. The hired help ALWAYS caused a drop in milk production.

Believe it or not Holstein steers make very good beef.

When we started I was doing it all myself and we were cutting grass buy hand as well never seen someones weight drop so fast but you are right milk production is always better when I'm on the farm every day, just leaving it to others is definatly NOT the way to go. We used to keep some bulls for beef but they are very slow growing and the thias preffer Brahman so they dont fech as much.

Korrat Correct

The Brahman cattle are mainly kept as a status symbol

Mabye years ago but I deal with lots fof beef farmers and know loads of people with just a few, the all do it to make a few bhat, nothing to do with status...you want status bild a big house and buy a merc

RC

Edited July 10, 2006 by RamdomChances

[bina]

how does one go abut buying, lets say, a young female brahmin, for future use? are there auctions, or is it best to buy from 'friends' people that u know, and see their stock? can u buy ahead of time?

for instance, here, people order goat kids from me, sight unseen (nothing special but goood quality care, and i help out when needed), but no real promises until birthed, and weaned, and then the money or trade switches hands...so they can see the buck, and the mother, and they know which kid belongs to which mother, i cant cheat them this way...(wouldnt want to but lots of people switch bucks/mothers)

because i am thinking of having bf's mother buy a young female and just keeping her,(better two together no?) ; and when able, breed her, just to have the cattle for the moment, for future use, not for now... thinking local brahmin mix, not milk...so at what ages, and prices , are there? and when are they bred? and what is the stud fee for basic bull, nothing special?

[RamdomChances]

Bina, It's a bit of everything. There are markets, you'd have to askwhere you nearest would be, a lot is done just word of mouth just let it be know you want to buy some or just ask around if anyone wants to sell any. Bearing in mind anyone will sell to you if the price is right.

We tend do do everything by word of mouth. People know we buy and sell regularly so they often come to us. I have someone we deal a lot with who is basicaly a trader, but we have become quite friendly over the years. He deals in beef but will buy up whole farms, dead animals anything really. If he's buying a closing dairy farm he usually give me a ring to see if I want any as he just sells them for beef otherwise. I've made more money out of some of the crappy cow's I've had off him than some really "good" milkers I've bought. Buy them in at just over beef price milk them till it's no longer profitable then sell them for beef. If they come on good so much the better. I used to look for really good milkers and pay the prices for them but they die just as easy as the others now we just by and sell all the time

Most of the people I know then to keep the females for breeding and sell of the bulls.The "feedlot" people are after bulls anyway. We sometimes sell dairy calfs "ahead of time" i.e someone will ask about a specific cow and wether we want to sell the calf when it comes out.

They tend to use AI around here rather than put them to a bull, I've been told that AI is expensive for them about 1,500-2,000 bhat but that might of been for pedigree imported stuff. "Teletiger" could probably tell you more.

[bina]

rc,

would most of the poorer folks also do AI? or do they just let their cows run with a bull??? my bf's family are farm poor, not big farmers, just subsistence level, they sold all their cattle for a brother's wedding; i'm just thinking for the future, to buy one or two, (long distance, as both he and i are in israel), and increase slowly in the next few years, with, hopefully, them promising (yeah right) not to sell off MY/OUR cows, just to look after them, and in the future, we would repay for the care (as he is last son to think about marriage etc, and only one that still wants to farm)...

i understand what you're saying... i've found for goats the same thing... fair priced is about same quality in long run as expensive onces, local as opposed to fancy, etc...

an other question: do people that breed fowl (chickens) for local use (not big slaughter houses etc) use small mechanical hatcheries?? here, there not that expensive, easy to use, built for about 20 eggs. i'm just starting now with arab hens (similar to the thai farm chickens, not the white leghorn etc)... we are trying to increase the amount of live chicks/ducks geese etc, and quail too.... since not every hen sits her eggs. again, im just thinking in terms of personal use and some selling, not big business.... thats for my bf to deal with (he wants to do fish)....

forgot to add, when u buy, are they vaccinated? do u have to test them (blood tests for brucellosis etc)? do papers change hands? how do u prove a cow is yours and not theirs after the sale and they are turned out to pasture? ear tagged? chipped? how can u know if a cow came from an infected area (hoof and mouth like last year, or brucellosis this year)...? i know, probably u cant! but thought i'd ask...

bina

Edited July 10, 2006 by bina

[RamdomChances]

would most of the poorer folks also do AI? or do they just let their cows run with a bull???

In my experiance yes they AI. I'm sure there is cheaper sperem the expensive when people are tryint to get one of those pretty brown long eard ones that were all the fasion and really expensive. I'm not sure what happend adout them but they were fetching crazy money. Anyway it's probably cos it works out cheaper than just keeping a bull all year just to service a few cows. In fact it's probably the other way around where the big rich farms would be able to keep a good pedigree bull.

do people that breed fowl (chickens) for local use (not big slaughter houses etc) use small mechanical hatcheries??

Yea I think so, my sitser-in-laws mother has a small chicken farm just for local stuff (couple of 100 I think) and nearly every house keeps "gai ban"some just wandering some with chicken houses (sorry I forget the name for them ) built and you can buy a varity of different types of chicken at most markets.

when u buy, are they vaccinated?

Sometimes, it will be on the paper if they are along with the ivoemec jabs

do u have to test them (blood tests for brucellosis etc)?

You should really but we dont have much problem in this area

do papers change hands? how do u prove a cow is yours and not theirs after the sale and they are turned out to pasture? ear tagged? chipped?

Yes it's called a ba wat (sp) they are ear tagged

how can u know if a cow came from an infected area (hoof and mouth like last year, or brucellosis this year)...? i know, probably u cant! but thought i'd ask...

It's on the paper where they come from the gov sometims puts restrictions on cattle movment in and out of infected areas. Saying all that with a friendly vet and a couple of hundred bhat you can get a cow re-tagged with a clean fresh paper, many small farms who just breed for themslfs done bother with the paper so it's not unusual to buy a cow without one (price adjusted of course ) Oh all that is for dairy I assume the beef ones are the same just could'nt tell you.

RC

[chownah]

In my village raising animals is more casual and smaller scale. Cows are impregnated by runing with bulls and hens that don't sit on their eggs get promoted up on the list of who gets eaten next....unless they lay alot of eggs and you have some other hen who will sit on all of them...which does happen....chicken day care I guess.

[bina]

thanx rc and chownah,

yes chownah we do the same; hens that sit get all the eggs, the others just lay... but now we have our really small mechanical hatchery, and its supposed to be 100%, whereas with hens, it can be less, she might not turn all the eggs, some might roll out, etc... we use a turkey hen since she is broody but has no male and her own eggs are sterile (good in cakes)... i guess as more and more farms are sold off due to bank loans, large company buyouts, etc etc, free running cows and bulls, etc will be less likely... the more boondocks the muubaan, the more there will still be bulls etc out free (and free of charge too)

when animals are out in pasture, or running loose in the village like the buffalo etc, how do people know which animals belong to whom?? are they branded, etc? here, we dye or colour mark the goats/sheep, same as with doves , plus all have ear tags, and a herder, but still, in thailand all i saw were animals roaming around, and at night they went home more or less on their own...

and rc, how does the gov't restrict, if u dont fill in a permission form for moving the animal (we ahve to register the ear tag number, fax it off, get the paper with the permission, so when the gov vet comes next time, he checks (sort of...)... even if u only own one animal for a pet for your children.... of course i can buy an unweaned kid/calf, bottle feed it, let it be with the herd and when the vet comes, i can say he/she belongs to mother x or the mother died or whatever, and he never checks...so if the gov. restricts movement, how is it enforced, etc... ?

[chownah]

Around here all the farmers retrieve all of their cows every night and everyone knows which belong to who...no markings at all...just individual appearances. There are only two people in my neighborhood that keep cows in the adjoining paddy land and three or four from the neighboring villages that use it too so its not difficult to keep track of which belongs to who.

As I've mentioned before, I am very slowly gearing up to get a couple of cows but I'm sort of wanting to avoid the commitment of 24/7/365 which I know is necessary...but if/when I do get them I will have a fenced pasture area where they will spend most of their time....maybe it will happen next year....I don't want to make a cow suffer because of my lack of preparedness or my lack of commitment.

Edited July 11, 2006 by chownah

[bina]

fenced pasture means u have to feed supplement them... its a bit more expensive isnt it??

as for caretaking, if there are family involved, u can spread out the care if its just for a few for yourself, not milk production dairy or something... these thai cows seem low maintainence since i guess a lot of the calves die early and people dont always treat for problems (expensive for meds), selectiveness for health probably happens (maybe im wrong?)...

curious also, do the thai in these muubaan spray alot (i've heard they do) and doesnt that effect the pasture (make it poisonous)areas if the cows are free ranging around?/

in love with this cow:

[RamdomChances]

rc, how does the gov't restrict

In a word "poorly"