Volcanic Ash Cloud Causes European Air Travel Chaos

[astral]

"Don't focus on one single well publicized event as it was hardly the only one. Seems being prudent is a wise decision."

Its the only one where a mayday was called and they were within 10 mins of death. Do some research tywais.

Here is the research........

British Airways Flight 9, sometimes referred to as the Speedbird 9 or Jakarta incident,[1] was a scheduled British Airways flight from London Heathrow to Auckland, with stops in Bombay, Madras, Kuala Lumpur, Perth, and Melbourne.

On 24 June 1982, the route was flown by City of Edinburgh, a 747-236B registered G-BDXH. The aircraft flew into a cloud of volcanic ash thrown up by the eruption of Mount Galunggung (c. 180 km south-east of Jakarta, Indonesia), resulting in the failure of all four engines. The reason for the failure was not immediately apparent to the crew or ground control. The aircraft was diverted to Jakarta in the hope that enough engines could be restarted to allow it to land there. The aircraft was able to glide far enough to exit the ash cloud, and all engines were restarted (although one failed again soon after), allowing the aircraft to land safely.

The crew members of the incident segment had boarded the aircraft in Kuala Lumpur, while many of the passengers had been aboard since the flight began in London.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_9

I have been told that a Singapore airlines plane was caught in the same cloud,

but there was not the same publicity......

Possibly urban myth.

[zorro1]

"Don't focus on one single well publicized event as it was hardly the only one. Seems being prudent is a wise decision."

Its the only one where a mayday was called and they were within 10 mins of death. Do some research tywais.

You're quite right, the pilots of KLM 867 never said the word "Mayday" (probably because of lack of time). What they said was;

Pilot KLM B–747—‘‘KLM 867 heavy we are descending now. . . we are in a fall!’’

Pilot KLM B–747—‘‘KLM 867 we need all the assistance you have sir. Give us radar vectors please!’’

(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KLM_Flight_867 )

Thank God you're not a commercial pilot (as I once was)

/ Priceless

I have a commercial licence. 30 mins of glide time is enough to utter may day 12,450 times

your right though, documentaries love to say ' ground control this is XXX were going down"

Edited April 18, 2010 by zorro1

[webfact]

Please stay on topic

_________________________________

Latest updates from EUROCONTROL

http://www.eurocontrol.int/corporate/publi...ation_1230.html

[mrdome]

KLM Pushes To Resume Flights After Ash Tests

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_iceland_volcano

[webfact]

SkyNewsBreak: Spain reopens all airports closed by volcanic ash. Airports in southern France also reopen.

BreakingNews: Air France says it will try to operate 7 long-distance flights from southern airports Monday

[webfact]

SkyNewsBreak: BA tells Sky News it is planning a test flight from Heathrow this afternoon, subject to approval by NATS.

SkyNewsBreak: French authorities say Toulouse, Bordeaux and Marseille airports will remain open until 1300 GMT on Monday.

[Priceless]

"Don't focus on one single well publicized event as it was hardly the only one. Seems being prudent is a wise decision."

Its the only one where a mayday was called and they were within 10 mins of death. Do some research tywais.

You're quite right, the pilots of KLM 867 never said the word "Mayday" (probably because of lack of time). What they said was;

Pilot KLM B–747—‘‘KLM 867 heavy we are descending now. . . we are in a fall!’’

Pilot KLM B–747—‘‘KLM 867 we need all the assistance you have sir. Give us radar vectors please!’’

(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KLM_Flight_867 )

Thank God you're not a commercial pilot (as I once was)

/ Priceless

I have a commercial licence. 30 mins of glide time is enough to utter may day 12,450 times

your right though, documentaries love to say ' ground control this is XXX were going down"

I have admittedly never flown an Boeing 747 or anything like it, neither have I flown at all in the last few decades. However, I did in my time not only "have a commercial licence" but also worked as a commercial pilot.

Question 1: What good would it have done to say "Mayday" when the situation appeared quite clear to both aircrew, air traffic control and everybody else concerned?

Question 2: "For five long minutes the powerless 747 jetliner, bound for Anchorage, Alaska, with 231 terrified passengers aboard, fell in silence toward the rugged, snow-covered Talkeetna Mountains (7,000 to 11,000 feet high). All four engines had flamed out when the aircraft inadvertently entered a cloud of ash blown from erupting Redoubt Volcano, 150 miles away. The volcano had begun erupting 10 hours earlier on that morning of December 15, 1989. Only after the crippled jet had dropped from an altitude of 27,900 feet to 13,300 feet (a fall of more than 2 miles) was the crew able to restart all engines and land the plane safely at Anchorage. The plane required $80 million in repairs, including the replacement of all four damaged engines." (Source: http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs030-97/ )

So, the plane fell 14,600 feet in five minutes, ending up at 13,300 feet. Yet you claim that it had "30 mins of glide time". Why would the last 13,300 feet take 30-5=25 minutes, i.e. ~500 ft/min when they were up to that time descending at almost 3,000 ft/min? Have you got a source?

Comment: You say "documentaries love to say" as if my quote in my previous post was from a documentary. In fact it was a transcript of:

Video/Voice/Recording plays for 57 seconds for Members and audience at

hearing . . .

Pilot KLM B–747—‘‘KLM 867 heavy is reaching {flight} level 250 heading 140’’

Anchorage Center—‘‘Okay, Do you have good sight on the ash plume at this time?’’

Pilot KLM B–747—‘‘Yea, it’s just cloudy it could be ashes. It’s just a little browner

than the normal cloud.’’

Pilot KLM B–747—‘‘We have to go left now . . . it’s smoky in the cockpit at the

moment sir.’’

Anchorage Center—‘‘KLM 867 heavy, roger, left at your discretion.’’

Pilot KLM B–747—‘‘Climbing to {flight} level 390, we’re in a black cloud, heading

130.’’

Pilot KLM B–747—‘‘KLM 867 we have flame out all engines and we are descending

now!’’

Anchorage Center—‘‘KLM 867 heavy anchorage?

Pilot KLM B747—‘‘KLM 867 heavy we are descending now . . . we are in a fall!’’

Pilot KLM B–747—‘‘KLM 867 we need all the assistance you have sir. Give us radar

vectors please!’’

quoted verbatim from "HEARING

BEFORE THE

SUBCOMMITTEE ON DISASTER PREVENTION AND

PREDICTION

OF THE

COMMITTEE ON COMMERCE,

SCIENCE, AND TRANSPORTATION

UNITED STATES SENATE"

( http://www.cusvo.org/docs/volcanichazards031606.pdf )

Maybe you have a better source?

/ Priceless

Edit: Just to explain the reason for my two posts: Let's be very grateful that both authorities and airlines would rather be safe than sorry. Posts to the effect that "there is not really that much danger" tend to make me just a little bit upset, especially when it may be my life or that of somebody close to me that is on the line.

Edited April 18, 2010 by Priceless

[Murf]

I have a flight out of Bangkok to the UK on Sunday, it doesnt look like its going to happen.

Sunday is also when my visa expires... Can i do anything other than do a visa run??

[syd barrett]

I have a flight out of Bangkok to the UK on Sunday, it doesnt look like its going to happen.

Sunday is also when my visa expires... Can i do anything other than do a visa run??

If the flight is cancelled on the Saturday book a visa-run for the Sunday.

[mrdome]

5 German Airports allowed to reopen until 8pm CET tonight: Berlin-Tegel, Berlin-Schönefeld, Erfurt, Leipzig and Hannover for flights heading East only.

UK airspace to remain closed until 7am GMT, on Monday morning.

France reopened Bordeaux, Marseille and Nice until 3pm CET Monday.

This launches us into total uncertainty, how will people find out which flight is going unless you are willing to put up camp at the airport?

Edited April 18, 2010 by mrdome

[Slaps]

I have a flight out of Bangkok to the UK on Sunday, it doesnt look like its going to happen.

Sunday is also when my visa expires... Can i do anything other than do a visa run??

If the flight is cancelled on the Saturday book a visa-run for the Sunday.

Surly he wouldn't be charged for over stay if hes waiting for his flight to leave?

[ukrules]

Surly he wouldn't be charged for over stay if hes waiting for his flight to leave?

I wouldn't count on that.

[webfact]

SkyNewsBreak: Ryanair cancels all scheduled flights to and from the UK until 1pm on Wednesday.

[zorro1]

priceless you were a pilot once, get over it..

on topic and breaking news... http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8628323.stm

The two airline bodies, ACI Europe and AEA, said: "The eruption of the Icelandic volcano is not an unprecedented event and the procedures applied in other parts of the world for volcanic eruptions do not appear to require the kind of restrictions that are presently being imposed in Europe."

One of the airlines that carried out tests over the weekend was Dutch carrier KLM.

Its chief executive Peter Hartman, who was on board, said there was "nothing unusual" about the flight.

"If the technical examination confirms this... we then hope to get permission as soon as possible to partially restart our operations," he added.

Steven Verhagen, vice-president of the Dutch Airline Pilots Association, told the Associated Press news agency: "In our opinion there is absolutely no reason to worry about resuming flights."

Germany's two biggest airlines, Lufthansa and Air Berlin, also said they had carried out test flights without apparent damage, as did Air France.

[pete_r]

I was at the airport yesterday and today and have to mention the Thai Airways staff at the reservation office are doing a good job in a difficult situation. They can't do much apart from rebooking to a later date (much later as the backlog is big) and advising to standby at the airport in case a flight can depart, but at least the management seems to have given them a good level of flexibility and initiative for dealing with customers (no fee for re-booking, extension of ticket validity until flights resume...).

[ukrules]

I do wonder if there's an over reaction going on by the 'authorities' in Europe, I've been doing some reading and it seems to me that the people in charge are taking the most extreme actions for a small volcano which isn't even a particularly large eruption.

I read an article that suggests planes could just fly under the cloud of ash if they approach it, this consumes more fuel but I guess that's better than the airlines slowly going bankrupt due to no flights at all.

[worldfun]

euro air space controllers are the same mob as the red shirts in BKK - and in europe the conclusion will be hard & unforgiven as it'll show no grounds for those wide ranging bans. useless cun_ts!

[thaitero]

Finnish F-18 engine check reveals effects of volcanic dust

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/...f-volcanic.html

[zorro1]

Finnish F-18 engine check reveals effects of volcanic dust

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2010/...f-volcanic.html

[/quote

supersonic ...subsonic..

useless comparison

[Basil B]

I do wonder if there's an over reaction going on by the 'authorities' in Europe, I've been doing some reading and it seems to me that the people in charge are taking the most extreme actions for a small volcano which isn't even a particularly large eruption.

I read an article that suggests planes could just fly under the cloud of ash if they approach it, this consumes more fuel but I guess that's better than the airlines slowly going bankrupt due to no flights at all.

Suspect that now that the safety of aircraft has been brought into question all insurers of airlines will have withdrawn cover and it is them who will need convincing that it is safe to fly.

[tso310]

BA test flight just landed in Cardiff. Looks like there could be some flights in Europe tomorrow but definately not from UK carriers. UK gov talking to Spanish gov on using Spain as a hub for British a/c.

[Rinrada]

SkyNewsBreak: Ryanair cancels all scheduled flights to and from the UK until 1pm on Wednesday.

Yes..and other airlines now talking poss Thursday ...but who knows ?

all very well saying that they will take a chance (KLM-AF-BA) and try and fly through the ash but only takes one wee budgie to fall off it perch and its back to Monty Phy-thon albiet ....that was a parrot.Nort worth thinking about...isit

Whens the next ferry to Bangkok?

[mrdome]

euro air space controllers are the same mob as the red shirts in BKK - and in europe the conclusion will be hard & unforgiven as it'll show no grounds for those wide ranging bans. useless cun_ts!

Are you for real? Winner of stupidest response so far.

[mrdome]

German airports to remain closed until 2pm local time today.

Ban for UK goes even further:

"A spokesman for the National Air Traffic Service (Nats) said: "Based on the latest information from the Met Office, Nats advises the current restrictions across UK controlled airspace remain in place until at least 7pm on Monday 19 April."

"In marked contrast to the UK, the EU has said it expects half its airspace will be cleared of the volcanic ash cloud on Monday."

Outlook is bleak though:

"Sky's Robert Nisbet, in Iceland, said an Atlantic storm may disperse the ash at the end of the week, but there are fears that a second nearby volcano may erupt. 1821 was the last time there was a major eruption at this glacier and it lasted two years, he said. What stopped it was the pressure moving along the pipe, so to speak, to a nearby volcano, and there are real fears that if that happens 200 years later there could be severe consequences.""

[slapout]

Patience, travelers (wanna be may be more accurate) To error on the cautious side has vastly less possible repercussions than the other extreme. Would you send your family on a flight where this natural threat to safe operations may have to be considered/dealt with by the pilots? Potential and real monetary losses do not seem a concern of those entrusted with making the decisions, which is as it should be.

[Farma]

CNN breaking news bar is reporting eastbound flights temporarily allowed from 6 German airports.

Edited April 19, 2010 by Farma

[Humphrey Bear]

I do wonder if there's an over reaction going on by the 'authorities' in Europe, I've been doing some reading and it seems to me that the people in charge are taking the most extreme actions for a small volcano which isn't even a particularly large eruption.

I read an article that suggests planes could just fly under the cloud of ash if they approach it, this consumes more fuel but I guess that's better than the airlines slowly going bankrupt due to no flights at all.

Suspect that now that the safety of aircraft has been brought into question all insurers of airlines will have withdrawn cover and it is them who will need convincing that it is safe to fly.

Precisely.

Whether the aircraft are owned by the relevant airline, or leased from an agency, the insurance people are the ones who will make the decision concerning their risks / obligations. And they do not take risks - they bring in force majeure, breach of conditions, not an insurable condition and all sorts of other clap-trap to avoid payment.

The CEO of the airline thwn has to put his job on the line - to fly un-insured, or to stay grounded and lose revenue. Devil and deep blue sea / rock and hard place / any other catch-phrase that suits.

These are major businesses with turnover in millions/billions depending on airline (and currency). The inconvenience to passengers is way down the list of considerations.

[citizen33]

Got through to Thai International's call centre (02-356-1111) after about 50 minutes in the queue early this morning. Still no information about London flights on Wednesday. All the staff can say is keep ringing ever day. The Thai IA website hasn't been properly updated and always seems a day behind in terms of news. It advises people requiring information to contact the call centre. They could certainly do a bit better!

[mrdome]

citizen33, you are asking too much. Nobody knows the exact conditions on Wednesday (does not look too good though) as it depends on the wind direction and other factors. There is just nothing anyone can do at this time.

At least overstay fees have just been waived by Thai Immigration for those stranded - one less worry in a very difficult situation.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Thai-Immigra...Fe-t357348.html

Edited April 19, 2010 by mrdome

[Noodles]

Not sure what to do.

I've been trying to contact emirates in BKK but there number is busy.

I have a flight with them leaving BKK 1am on the 21st. Then stop off in Dubai

and the next leg of the flight is to LHR. Will I be allowed to fly the 1st leg of the flight?

Will they provide accomdation if flights are not leaving for LHR for the 2nd part to LHR.

I have to fly from samui to BKK, so I don't know whether to stay here or make the move

and get the journey started. Any advice appreciated, as I can't get through to emirates.

Thanks