Red Shirt Leaders Flee As Thai Forces Surround Hotel

[commons]

and yet another Red supporter who just joined T.Visa - dare I say some Red supporters have registered multiple accounts?

But to address your points: No I don't advocate race wars. However, I do think Bangkok needs to cleaned up and Bangkokians and the gov't be allowed to go back to work. It's been said a hundred times already, but it's still true: If Thaksin wasn't paying Reds to protest, (directly to Red leaders, and indirectly to the groundlings) the protest would have never got off the ground.

Haha - I wouldn't be writing here if I wasn't banned by the The Nation.

Nope, I am not a red shirt supporter, but I certainly understand their grievances and their tactics.

{snip etc}

i guess a lot of people here would like to learn more about your posts on nation-blog, chai mai?

what about your great statement dismissing mises' economic theories linking it to austria's actual economic status & _even_ linking that to adolf hitler?

i guess you didn't do that, right?

[animatic]

I would just like to mention that not a single English international news source has adopted the word "terrorist" to refer to the redshirts. Many have mentioned that Abhisit referred to them thusly but none has adopted the word to refer to the reds outside of the references in Abhisit's speeches.

3 examples (now that I know we CAN actually link to other sources besides the Nation, Yay!)

Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE63F0CX20100416

"The government has promised to crack down on what it terms "terrorists" whom it blames for Saturday's killings"

New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/17/world/asia/17thai.html

"Mr. Abhisit said the move was necessary because the protesters had been infiltrated by what he called terrorists who were threatening national security. "

BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8625847.stm

"He had announced that the police were there to take "decisive measures against terrorists" - the government's word for an alleged protest hard core."

Can argue about what color the terrorists are wearing, but it's certainly clear that there are terrorists shooting and throwing grenades and, well, terrorizing. Unless of course, there is an armed insurrection.

He has always been referring to terrorists hiding within red ranks, not that all reds are terrorists,

and international press has drawn that same conclusion. Decisive measure against the guys with guns

and grenades actively trying to kill riot squad commanders are called for, or hand Red Leaders the keys to the nation..

Well they've made their bed, and anyone on the red side that steps up and tries to swing big dick

with Anupongs crew next round, will not be given too much quarter; if ANYTHING is in their hands....

Not a pretty thought, but, can you really expect the army to go in unprepared one more time? Not likely.

Some argue silent or soft coup.

I supect Suthep was no longer considered up to the job and no commander wants

to send his men into certain battle with political constraints on their survival abilities.

We do it our way, or call your election now, your way has been a cockup.

If the tough love started 3 weeks back, this might all be a different story....

Let's pray this is not a Black Day a Red Rock.

[britmaveric]

You are assuming that good general will do smth. He already said what needs to be done and using the army to kill thai people was not the answer.

[hpl]

Thai army planning operation to disperse protesters

BANGKOK (AFP) - – Thailand's security forces are planning another operation to disperse anti-government protesters in Bangkok, an army spokesman said Friday, following deadly civil unrest last weekend.

"It's being planned. We don't know when and how," spokesman Sunsern Kaewkumnerd told reporters when asked about the possibility of a move to clear the Red Shirt demonstrators from the capital's commercial district.

http://sg.news.yahoo.com/afp/20100416/tap-...se-c8d5519.html

[Harry2]

So how long before Abhisit resigns?

I just do not see how the Anupong replacement of Suthep will play out.

Is the army removing civilian control rather than declare martial law?

Abhist like Suthep is presumably now inconsequential - given Abhist's media absence perhaps that has been the case for a few days?

Does it mean the army will storm the democracy demonstrators on say, Tuesday, - all depends now on Anupong - this must reinforce his position as man in charge of the final say.

[Tod Daniels]

Did anyone else happen to notice that both Veera Musikapong and the 'infamous rambler of nonsense' Dr. Weng Tojirakarn have been noticeably absent not only in the media but on-stage too.

Strange that the only guy (Veera ) who said he might find a way out o this MESS might be actually negotiating with the government is NO WHERE to be found.

Have they been "shuffled off to Buffalo" (no buffalo pun intended ) or have they been sidelined by the more radically minded "red-rabble-rousers" Jatuporn, Sunporn and Arisman?

Enquiring Minds May Want 2 Know . ... or read that as "SANE" minds might want 2 know (if you are in thailand now). ..

And now back to the Red/Yellow/Dark Blue or Sky/Blue/Pink (whatever your persuasion) Mindless Mob rhetoric, already in progress. .. ..

[longway]

So let us just remind ourselves of the basics. The first basic point is that any government that sends soldiers armed with M16 automatic weapons, live ammunition, and tanks, in order to disperse a peaceful and disciplined demonstration, has already decided on the option of using lethal force against the demonstrators. This is an undeniable fact whether or not the soldiers also carry shields and rubber bullets and whether or not the soldiers initially fire live rounds into the air. In the inevitable situation of stress and tension, the soldiers will start firing live ammunition against civilians and they have indeed done this. It is also true that this will occur whether or not there are some mysterious black-clad figures running around. These could be special military forces, people hoping to stimulate a bloody crackdown, or some other group.

Whatever the case, these people had no connection with the UDD who have repeatedly restrained their supporters.

This just BS from a bitter exile. In case he hadn't noticed the govt lost, and lost humiliatingly. Its clear they were not prepared in the least for what happened that night. Who exactly the 3rd party is is up for conjecture, but how does he know they have no connection with the red shirts? How does he know soliders would start shooting at an unarmed mob? Why would govt. destroy their credibility with such a strategy? There is is no way fo him to know, its just his opnion; speculation dressed up as fact. The guy called Seh Daeng had reguarly popped up for months insinuating the exact scenario that occured on April 10.

Check out this article from December 2009. Rogue generals on thaksin's payroll

At the time it was written one would think it was paranoid nonsense from the nation, but it is almost prescient in describing what happened on April 10.

He also neglects to mention the 30 or so small bombs and grenade attacks that occured concurrently with the red shirt demonstarions, and also never mentions Arisman's threat to burn down Bangkok.

The whole peice is a sham.

I would contend that he is the deceitful academic.

Edited April 16, 2010 by longway

[FreedomDude]

Absolutely spot on...an excellent, convincing and fair analysis...I must admit to being tricked by all the government talk of terrorists....but of course the red-shirts demonstrated peacefully for a month...when the troops rolled in the trouble started...thank you for opening my eyes

Congratulations - you may be the first person who has ever agreed with Comrade Ungpakorn's musings.

Even the Red Shirts wrote him off some time ago.

I agree with retarius and disagree with jackspratt. Great analysis! Pro-Red article of the day.

[Harry2]

Oh well reply to my own post - looks like its when not if:

""It's being planned. We don't know when and how," spokesman Sunsern Kaewkumnerd told reporters when asked about the possibility of a move to clear the Red Shirt demonstrators from the capital's commercial district."

[on-on]

Google?

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LD17Ae01.html

It's actually not that easy to find via Google. Took me 5 minutes of pecking through a bunch of more prominent results before I figured out where his column was. ATimes needs an SEO consultant. Interesting column nonetheless, I'd been wondering what may or may not be occurring inside the military now that it's dealing with an external threat against its monopoly on force. The idea that the external threat may be internal (which I know is not new, but hasn't been heavily analyzed in the English media) is pretty troublesome to consider. It wouldn't be a new thing for the country that gave us The Manhattan Coup, but it would nonetheless be a troublesome development at this point.

[hpl]

Absolutely spot on...an excellent, convincing and fair analysis...I must admit to being tricked by all the government talk of terrorists....but of course the red-shirts demonstrated peacefully for a month...when the troops rolled in the trouble started...thank you for opening my eyes

Congratulations - you may be the first person who has ever agreed with Comrade Ungpakorn's musings.

Even the Red Shirts wrote him off some time ago.

I agree with retarius and disagree with jackspratt. Great analysis! Pro-Red article of the day.

Guess no one has found a single Thai that agrees with his Manifesto.

[FreedomDude]

I would just like to mention that not a single English international news source has adopted the word "terrorist" to refer to the redshirts. Many have mentioned that Abhisit referred to them thusly but none has adopted the word to refer to the reds outside of the references in Abhisit's speeches.

3 examples (now that I know we CAN actually link to other sources besides the Nation, Yay!)

Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE63F0CX20100416

"The government has promised to crack down on what it terms "terrorists" whom it blames for Saturday's killings"

New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/17/world/asia/17thai.html

"Mr. Abhisit said the move was necessary because the protesters had been infiltrated by what he called terrorists who were threatening national security. "

BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8625847.stm

"He had announced that the police were there to take "decisive measures against terrorists" - the government's word for an alleged protest hard core."

Can argue about what color the terrorists are wearing, but it's certainly clear that there are terrorists shooting and throwing grenades and, well, terrorizing. Unless of course, there is an armed insurrection.

He has always been referring to terrorists hiding within red ranks, not that all reds are terrorists,

and international press has drawn that same conclusion.

Care to give us one example to back that claim? I provided 3 examples to back up mine.

[debcmai]

From AFP:

An explosive device is seen inside the "Red Shirt" anti-government leader Arisman Pongruanrong's hotel room after he fled arrest, at a downtown hotel in Bangkok.

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/slideshow/ph...910afd9060ac70/

sp... what??? are they trying to get us to believe the red shirts were going to blow themselves up??? get real. it is an obvious plant.

[rabo]

I would just like to mention that not a single English international news source has adopted the word "terrorist" to refer to the redshirts. Many have mentioned that Abhisit referred to them thusly but none has adopted the word to refer to the reds outside of the references in Abhisit's speeches.

3 examples (now that I know we CAN actually link to other sources besides the Nation, Yay!)

Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE63F0CX20100416

"The government has promised to crack down on what it terms "terrorists" whom it blames for Saturday's killings"

New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/17/world/asia/17thai.html

"Mr. Abhisit said the move was necessary because the protesters had been infiltrated by what he called terrorists who were threatening national security. "

BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8625847.stm

"He had announced that the police were there to take "decisive measures against terrorists" - the government's word for an alleged protest hard core."

That's probably because the red's are not the terrorists, they are rural farming people. That's understood here in Thailand and I assume the savy international media would follow suit.

The reference to terrorists applies to Taksin's militant wing trained under Gen. Khattiya and maybe others we don't know about. These are the ones that have threated to "hunt down" Abhisit and the ones that tried to blow up the primiary electical pylons feeding Bangkok, a *real* terrorist attack that would have led to significant loss of innocent life. How many hospital emergency rooms are there in Bangkok?

[hpl]

From AFP:

An explosive device is seen inside the "Red Shirt" anti-government leader Arisman Pongruanrong's hotel room after he fled arrest, at a downtown hotel in Bangkok.

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/slideshow/ph...910afd9060ac70/

sp... what??? are they trying to get us to believe the red shirts were going to blow themselves up???

Grenades are usually thrown at opposing forces, not held onto for self-destruction.

Not unlike the firearms that were shot at opposing forces by red shirt guards while Arisaman escaped.

Edited April 16, 2010 by hpl

[FreedomDude]

Absolutely spot on...an excellent, convincing and fair analysis...I must admit to being tricked by all the government talk of terrorists....but of course the red-shirts demonstrated peacefully for a month...when the troops rolled in the trouble started...thank you for opening my eyes

Congratulations - you may be the first person who has ever agreed with Comrade Ungpakorn's musings.

Even the Red Shirts wrote him off some time ago.

I agree with retarius and disagree with jackspratt. Great analysis! Pro-Red article of the day.

Guess no one has found a single Thai that agrees with his Manifesto.

I hate to rain on your parade and I know you WANT to believe it's all about Thaksin and getting daily payments, but that Manifesto basically explains the drive behind the Red Shirt movement. I know it's not convenient to you and your scornful attitude towards a certain race of people (yeah, i saw your racist buffalo comedy picture post before it was deleted earlier today)

[Neurath]

Google?

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LD17Ae01.html

It's actually not that easy to find via Google. Took me 5 minutes of pecking through a bunch of more prominent results before I figured out where his column was. ATimes needs an SEO consultant. Interesting column nonetheless, I'd been wondering what may or may not be occurring inside the military now that it's dealing with an external threat against its monopoly on force. The idea that the external threat may be internal (which I know is not new, but hasn't been heavily analyzed in the English media) is pretty troublesome to consider. It wouldn't be a new thing for the country that gave us The Manhattan Coup, but it would nonetheless be a troublesome development at this point.

As usual though, it's an excellent piece.

Even if you find Crispin half way plausible in what he says , it will give pause to a reading of this current shitfest as fight between the 'haves' and the 'havenots'. Such a reading is, more than anything else, a justificatory vocabulary for the plays in hand and a wonderful opportunity for western folk to see themselves as romantic revolutionaries (most of these folks would go apoplectic at the mere mention of increased taxes.)

[animatic]

"How ironic you are saying it's now the general who wants peace.

I don't think he was threatening to get into the control situation.

I think he wanted his last 6 months to quietly expire.

But the threat to his army home from Thaksin is too great to let go to chance.

Suthep just doesn't command enough respect in security circles

even after siding with the police generals and their hatred of Abhisit

over rides any good graces Suthep won. The police will not like Anupong,

but won't dare mess with him.

So, I suspect reluctantly, Anupong takes up the controls for one last round,

and will deal with it like a soldier and not a politician, and let the chips fall where they may.

At this point his only constituency will be his self-respect and how he is viewed in history.

How other soldiers, and MOST civilians see him in the future.

It is quite ironic"

------------------------------------

Perhaps a big gamble by Abhisit. Telling Anupong, you will now take orders directly from me. Perhaps an expression of incipient civilian control of the army. Big responsibility, since what happens now is entirely on Abhisit's plate and there aren't any excuses for either him or Anupong. Let chips fall indeed.

Everything MUST be a big gamble for him right now.

It is clear that having Suthep as fall guy didn't work a bit... cut out the middleman.

But creating order from chaos would likely take priority over post analysis blaming.

Basically it took one political animals voice out of the loop.

I have a feeling Anupong and Abhisit can speak one to one better than through Suthep.

Shawn Crispin's article was excellent, and tied in with some of my thoughts.

More details about the intra army issues for sure. A Prayuth-led purge of the military

would likely be with Anupong blessing, they both must realize that serious forces are at play,

and regaining control is priority. Interesting about SCOM actually being mentioned....

So many egos so little time and so few seats at the big table. The disgruntled clutch at straws

Thaksin holds them out....

[Neurath]

I would just like to mention that not a single English international news source has adopted the word "terrorist" to refer to the redshirts. Many have mentioned that Abhisit referred to them thusly but none has adopted the word to refer to the reds outside of the references in Abhisit's speeches.

3 examples (now that I know we CAN actually link to other sources besides the Nation, Yay!)

Reuters: http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE63F0CX20100416

"The government has promised to crack down on what it terms "terrorists" whom it blames for Saturday's killings"

New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/17/world/asia/17thai.html

"Mr. Abhisit said the move was necessary because the protesters had been infiltrated by what he called terrorists who were threatening national security. "

BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8625847.stm

"He had announced that the police were there to take "decisive measures against terrorists" - the government's word for an alleged protest hard core."

That's probably because the red's are not the terrorists, they are rural farming people. That's understood here in Thailand and I assume the savy international media would follow suit.

The reference to terrorists applies to Taksin's militant wing trained under Gen. Khattiya and maybe others we don't know about. These are the ones that have threated to "hunt down" Abhisit and the ones that tried to blow up the primiary electical pylons feeding Bangkok, a *real* terrorist attack that would have led to significant loss of innocent life. How many hospital emergency rooms are there in Bangkok?

And there is still the open question of who planned and executed the assassination attempt on Sonthi L. - not that I'm in any way a fan of the man or his agenda. The weapons came from Lopburri.

[hpl]

Congratulations - you may be the first person who has ever agreed with Comrade Ungpakorn's musings.

Even the Red Shirts wrote him off some time ago.

I agree with retarius and disagree with jackspratt. Great analysis! Pro-Red article of the day.

Guess no one has found a single Thai that agrees with his Manifesto.

I hate to rain on your parade and I know you WANT to believe it's all about Thaksin and getting daily payments, but that Manifesto basically explains the drive behind the Red Shirt movement.

So you know Thai people that have read the Thai version of his Manifesto and agree with all his recommendations?

Really? I seriously doubt it. Every Thai I've ever shown it to, were infuriated and disgusted by it.

Good thing, for him, that he ran away from this country was a common reply.

[modfive]

I feel like I'm in a room with a bunch of Pro Wrestling fanatics

Edited April 16, 2010 by modfive

[on-on]

As usual though, it's an excellent piece.

Even if you find Crispin half way plausible in what he says , it will give pause to a reading of this current shitfest as fight between the 'haves' and the 'havenots'. Such a reading is, more than anything else, a justificatory vocabulary for the plays in hand and a wonderful opportunity for western folk to see themselves as romantic revolutionaries (most of these folks would go apoplectic at the mere mention of increased taxes.)

Yeah, I don't think you'll catch me simplifying things like that. There's a lot of complexity here and I don't discuss the issue in much detail because 1) my knowledge is necessarily limited and 2) what I am able to discuss requires an analysis of historical and future arcs and there's a large part of the discussion of motivational aspects that governs who might do what, when, that's simply off-limits. I do feel for the individual people who are caught in the middle of this power play and I can't deny a notion that whatever the political theater that's going on is at the moment we've seen some pretty interesting political development within Thailand during this time that's probably a genie who won't be going back in the bottle.

EDIT: Can they turn off the stupid smilies so that we can type a B and a parentheses without an idiotic emoticon? Good lord.

Edited April 16, 2010 by on-on

[Neurath]

"I hate to rain on your parade and I know you WANT to believe it's all about Thaksin and getting daily payments, but that Manifesto basically explains the drive behind the Red Shirt movement."

----------------------------------------------------

Don't think it does explain "the drive behind the Red Shirt Movement" any more than "freedom and democracy for the middle east" explains the drive behind recent western intervention there. The manifesto sure sounds good (as it should considering its commercial provenance), but it's not "the drive". Nice to be able to think it is though, 'cause then you can be on the side of angels. Problem is that this isn't a Manichean world and this certainly isn't a Manichean country.

[Neurath]

As usual though, it's an excellent piece.

Even if you find Crispin half way plausible in what he says , it will give pause to a reading of this current shitfest as fight between the 'haves' and the 'havenots'. Such a reading is, more than anything else, a justificatory vocabulary for the plays in hand and a wonderful opportunity for western folk to see themselves as romantic revolutionaries (most of these folks would go apoplectic at the mere mention of increased taxes.)

Yeah, I don't think you'll catch me simplifying things like that. There's a lot of complexity here and I don't discuss the issue in much detail because 1) my knowledge is necessarily limited and 2) what I am able to discuss requires an analysis of historical and future arcs and there's a large part of the discussion of motivational aspects that governs who might do what, when, that's simply off-limits. I do feel for the individual people who are caught in the middle of this power play and I can't deny a notion that whatever the political theater that's going on is at the moment we've seen some pretty interesting political development within Thailand during this time that's probably a genie who won't be going back in the bottle.

EDIT: Can they turn off the stupid smilies so that we can type a B and a parentheses without an idiotic emoticon? Good lord.

Yep, I hope the Genie cannot be put back in the bottle. I find the Red Shirt Manifesto eminently sensible and, quite frankly, somewhat arousing - in the political sense of course (edit: turned emoticon off)

Edited April 16, 2010 by Neurath

[TheOldWolf]

Some poster here said that PM looked tired and not well. I am not supriced. If a normal person has to deal with psychopaths that never have bad conscience, I think you get tired and depressed.

[Neurath]

Some poster here said that PM looked tired and not well. I am not supriced. If a normal person has to deal with psychopaths that never have bad conscience, I think you get tired and depressed.

dam_n, I misread that at first! Thought you were referring to Thaksin meeting repeatedly with Seh Daeng!! But you were referring to Abhisit meeting with Anupong??

[SantiSuk]

They could make a Peter Sellers movie out of this stuff. Pure comedy capers - can't wait for more tomorrow.

[way2muchcoffee]

good on them.

trying to arrest political leaders just a few hours after offering the next round of political talks, was a bad move from the government. Who is going to take them seriously?

ps great publicity for the hotel, they would be on every tv news around the world - advertising worth tens of millions $

Red Shirt leaders flee as Thai forces surround hotel

Nation headline I presume?

Government looks foolish in PR disaster would be more truthful, but we all know what the first casualty of war is, dont we, Khun Thamrong?

Guess we spoke too soon. From The Nation:

An embarrassing fiasco for govt

Published on April 17, 2010

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/home/2010/...t-30127299.html

[on-on]

Yep, I hope the Genie cannot be put back in the bottle. I find the Red Shirt Manifesto eminently sensible and, quite frankly, somewhat arousing - in the political sense of course (edit: turned emoticon off)

All politics being local, the test will be whether the current protesters go home and clean up their own backyards. I'm less interested in the academic rhetoric than I am in the participatory end of things. If people scream at a national government for its illegitimacy and then go home and kowtow to whoever the local bigwig is then it's just going to be a game of meet the new boss, same as the old boss. Right now this is a larger long-term concern because it seems likely on that side of the popular equation. The genie may not go back in the bottle, and I hope he doesn't, but if all he does is sit around and grant master's wishes then he's just playing for scraps. The other side of the popular equation is a different can of worms with its own problems, of course, and I only don't bring it up because it's not as germane (I think it will be again, soon, though).

[monkfish]

From AFP:

An explosive device is seen inside the "Red Shirt" anti-government leader Arisman Pongruanrong's hotel room after he fled arrest, at a downtown hotel in Bangkok.

http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/slideshow/ph...910afd9060ac70/

Ahhh now I know why PM wasn't looking well today and Suthep lost his job.

How embarrassing!!

Edited April 16, 2010 by monkfish