Red Shirt Leaders Flee As Thai Forces Surround Hotel

[whiterussian]

Thinking about it, maybe Thailand does have a valid point

Assume the Majority of Thai's will vote red in another election.

poll question: Is Thaksin really great?

answer: YES! (50%+)

and then think of the voting masses of arguably the most powerful country (and thus most dangerous) in the world.

poll question: God (not evolution) created humans in present form? : yes or no

answer: YES!(50%+) (Bush voters 67%)

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/...ain657083.shtml

Edited April 16, 2010 by whiterussian

[Tokay]

Keystone cops.

This is truly pathetic in ever sense of the word. Are they simply unable to do ANYTHING right?

It's a good Thailand Thailand doesn't go to war with someone. They would be slaughtered.

Edited April 16, 2010 by Tokay

[CosmicSurfer]

Some people are either being deliberately thick to stir the pot or really are lacking in brainpower. Personally I would not call the majority of grass-roots reds terrorists. They're not. They have genuine grievances that need to be heard. They need the right to better education (without bribes determining how far they go and what grades they get), healthcare etc. The terrorists are the leaders and Sae Daeng's lot.

This causes a problem. Some people here lump them all together. Wrong approach guys. The ordinary reds probably have no idea about the more sinister side of things, and don't forget they're there on the ground or at home watching red tv only getting a very limited set of information (information management is something the red leaders have handled very cleverly). Btw in case anyone thinks I'm biased I also think other media sources are pretty <deleted> but we have the option of scanning the channels, seeing different views on twitter etc. The guys at the rally don't have that option.

This presents a real problem for government/police/army to handle even if they were competent. If terrorists are hiding among civilians (I count terrorists as people who carry grenade launchers and ak47s and use them) how do you take them out without harming civilians? It's a tough call. Warn them and the terrorists will flee. Don't warn them and you'll have a bloodbath. Take no action and the belligerent leadership will keep on pushing and keep on making things even more lawless. And with the grass-roots reds being so lovey-dovey while the iron fist of the red terrorists lurks unseen, the world's media will rip you to pieces if you take action.

Of course the above was on the assumption of competence. Crap. We can't make that assumption. We have police who lack the skill to handle crowd-control and frankly don't give a crap anyway, and an army that's split through the middle and stuffed with watermelons. Sae Daeng vs Thai Police and army? You know who's going to win.

Now the problem here is that whichever side 'wins' will face the same problem. If an armed group rises against them they have no means to do anything about it, lacking competent police and army. This makes Thailand incapable of having a functioning government. Which brings me to the present government.

If I was Abhisit I'd say "<deleted> to this" and leave everyone else to it, as the PM's job is an absolute poisoned chalice and anyone who takes the job is doomed to lose it within a fairly short space of time. I don't think any truly democratic leader will last more than 2 years from here on in, until a radical shift happens in Thailand.

So who can rule Thailand? Whoever has a big and ruthless private army (because the state one is hopeless). One could argue that this is the reds, with Sae Daeng's lot. Yep, Thailand has backed itself into a corner where the only type of leader who can successfully rule is an armed despot. No civilian leader will have a chance, because more thugs will come and the state army and police will fail again. So the future is either red-yellow-red-yellow-red-yellow or a slide into brutal dictatorship.

Personally I don't see a way out and that bothers me. I love Thailand, I really do (admittedly mostly for the food) but I just don't see a way out of this mess Maybe that's why I'm not a diplomat, rather just another anonymous wanke_r on the internet.

Very well thought out Post... I agree completely.

The problems here are systemic.. No matter how many times you recycle the parts, if the system is broke the machine can never function. Fact !!

Not only are Thais not ready for Real democracy, through a lack of understanding what Real democracy is and what it entails (not their fault, really).... but also,The Multi-Party system they have set up works totally against them and has been perverted by the deficiencies of culture. With Nepotism and Corruption the driving forces, and Political parties run as fiefdoms, bought and paid for, how can ANY democratically elected Prime Minister and/or government really function.. All Governments exists at the sufferance of their coalition partners whose support is bought with the distribution of Ministerial Piggy banks. any attempt in interfere in the Coalition feeding trough is met with the threat of support withdrawal and the imminent fall of the government.

No individual minister is held responsible and accountable, so they go about doing as they please.. No amount of "Orders" and policy set at the top has any effect on performance. No threats of dismissal are taken seriously... Not when the only effect of dismissal is the shifting (with pay) to an "inactive" Position of Non-Responsibility.. not a real firing.. or jail.

So nothing EVER changes.... and anyone who thinks the Red leaders (or the Yellows) are really fighting for true systemic change has been smoking too much ganja, or are related to the Cheshire cat. The Leaders of both camps are only fighting for their own turn at the trough... and the poor uneducated and disadvantaged of this country remain the Pawns they have always been.

So it has always been written... So It will always be done!

CS

[TheOldWolf]

"From now on all leaders gonna sleep togheter"? What a stupid tactic. They should never sleep at the same place. I they do that and get caught, the movement will be leaderless. But I think they will have the black men to protect them.

[hpl]

BANGKOK, April 16 (Reuters)

The SC Park hotel is owned by the family of former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra who was ousted in an army coup in 2006 and is the de facto leader of the red shirts.

http://www.iii.co.uk/news/?type=afxnews&am...;action=article

So much for all these silly notions that the red shirts are not about Thaksin.

[WAERTH]

Thinking about it, maybe Thailand does have a valid point

Assume the Majority of Thai's will vote red in another election.

poll question: Is Thaksin really great?

answer: YES! (50%+)

and then think of the voting masses of arguably the most powerful country (and thus most dangerous) in the world.

poll question: God (not evolution) created humans in present form? : yes or no

answer: YES!(50%+)

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/11/22/...ain657083.shtml

You have just given 2 arguments why power to the people and democracy arent necassarily the best things.

[vicco]

Thai "special forces commandos" are trained to always call ahead to make sure the target(s) are going to be in....no point in storming the place if they are not there... The second call is made to the supporters to make sure they keep clear and not interfere with the operation.

I trust the SAS, Delta ect. are taking notes... The wife had to pat me on the back for a minute, I almost passed out laughing when I read this stuff.

[bangkokrick]

THE NATION: Veteran comedian Thep Pho-ngarm joined muli-coloured patriot group led by Tul at Victory momument today. via Thai Rath.

I they have a face off. Arisman will win hands down!

Cheers, Rick

[ozzieman05]

Freedom Dude

------------------------

and on this evidence you lost the numbers to form a parliment

Nice try but NO DEAL

[humfurry]

THE NATION: Veteran comedian Thep Pho-ngarm joined muli-coloured patriot group led by Tul at Victory momument today. via Thai Rath.

I they have a face off. Arisman will win hands down!

Cheers, Rick

You mean a comedy showdown Rick?

Hummy

[WAERTH]

THE NATION: Veteran comedian Thep Pho-ngarm joined muli-coloured patriot group led by Tul at Victory momument today. via Thai Rath.

I they have a face off. Arisman will win hands down!

Cheers, Rick

I have worked with Thep in a couple of movies and tv shows. He is a nice man and a great comedian. I already sms-ed him my support. I might join him there tomorrow.

W

[ozzieman05]

Keystone cops.

This is truly pathetic in ever sense of the word. Are they simply unable to do ANYTHING right?

It's a good Thailand Thailand doesn't go to war with someone. They would be slaughtered.

History Facts

When the Japanese landed in Thailand World War II

The Thai army laid down their guns and welcomed them with open are

Just before lunch time

Don't believe me GOOGLE it

[vicco]

BANGKOK, April 16 (Reuters)

The SC Park hotel is owned by the family of former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra who was ousted in an army coup in 2006 and is the de facto leader of the red shirts.

http://www.iii.co.uk/news/?type=afxnews&am...;action=article

So much for all these silly notions that the red shirts are not about Thaksin.

/quote]

You mean if I stay at a Hilton hotel ...it's all about Paris Hilton---the spiritual leader of all airheads?

[andrewfr]

Some people are either being deliberately thick to stir the pot or really are lacking in brainpower. Personally I would not call the majority of grass-roots reds terrorists. They're not. They have genuine grievances that need to be heard. They need the right to better education (without bribes determining how far they go and what grades they get), healthcare etc. The terrorists are the leaders and Sae Daeng's lot.

This causes a problem. Some people here lump them all together. Wrong approach guys. The ordinary reds probably have no idea about the more sinister side of things, and don't forget they're there on the ground or at home watching red tv only getting a very limited set of information (information management is something the red leaders have handled very cleverly). Btw in case anyone thinks I'm biased I also think other media sources are pretty <deleted> but we have the option of scanning the channels, seeing different views on twitter etc. The guys at the rally don't have that option.

This presents a real problem for government/police/army to handle even if they were competent. If terrorists are hiding among civilians (I count terrorists as people who carry grenade launchers and ak47s and use them) how do you take them out without harming civilians? It's a tough call. Warn them and the terrorists will flee. Don't warn them and you'll have a bloodbath. Take no action and the belligerent leadership will keep on pushing and keep on making things even more lawless. And with the grass-roots reds being so lovey-dovey while the iron fist of the red terrorists lurks unseen, the world's media will rip you to pieces if you take action.

Of course the above was on the assumption of competence. Crap. We can't make that assumption. We have police who lack the skill to handle crowd-control and frankly don't give a crap anyway, and an army that's split through the middle and stuffed with watermelons. Sae Daeng vs Thai Police and army? You know who's going to win.

Now the problem here is that whichever side 'wins' will face the same problem. If an armed group rises against them they have no means to do anything about it, lacking competent police and army. This makes Thailand incapable of having a functioning government. Which brings me to the present government.

If I was Abhisit I'd say "<deleted> to this" and leave everyone else to it, as the PM's job is an absolute poisoned chalice and anyone who takes the job is doomed to lose it within a fairly short space of time. I don't think any truly democratic leader will last more than 2 years from here on in, until a radical shift happens in Thailand.

So who can rule Thailand? Whoever has a big and ruthless private army (because the state one is hopeless). One could argue that this is the reds, with Sae Daeng's lot. Yep, Thailand has backed itself into a corner where the only type of leader who can successfully rule is an armed despot. No civilian leader will have a chance, because more thugs will come and the state army and police will fail again. So the future is either red-yellow-red-yellow-red-yellow or a slide into brutal dictatorship.

Personally I don't see a way out and that bothers me. I love Thailand, I really do (admittedly mostly for the food) but I just don't see a way out of this mess Maybe that's why I'm not a diplomat, rather just another anonymous wanke_r on the internet.

Very well thought out Post... I agree completely.

The problems here are systemic.. No matter how many times you recycle the parts, if the system is broke the machine can never function. Fact !!

Not only are Thais not ready for Real democracy, through a lack of understanding what Real democracy is and what it entails (not their fault, really).... but also,The Multi-Party system they have set up works totally against them and has been perverted by the deficiencies of culture. With Nepotism and Corruption the driving forces, and Political parties run as fiefdoms, bought and paid for, how can ANY democratically elected Prime Minister and/or government really function.. All Governments exists at the sufferance of their coalition partners whose support is bought with the distribution of Ministerial Piggy banks. any attempt in interfere in the Coalition feeding trough is met with the threat of support withdrawal and the imminent fall of the government.

No individual minister is held responsible and accountable, so they go about doing as they please.. No amount of "Orders" and policy set at the top has any effect on performance. No threats of dismissal are taken seriously... Not when the only effect of dismissal is the shifting (with pay) to an "inactive" Position of Non-Responsibility.. not a real firing.. or jail.

So nothing EVER changes.... and anyone who thinks the Red leaders (or the Yellows) are really fighting for true systemic change has been smoking too much ganja, or are related to the Cheshire cat. The Leaders of both camps are only fighting for their own turn at the trough... and the poor uneducated and disadvantaged of this country remain the Pawns they have always been.

So it has always been written... So It will always be done!

CS

Many thanks to you two for injecting some intelligent thinking into this otherwise depressingly double digit IQ thread...

[Barabbas]

It's a bloody circus, and the clowns are armed. Why all of those overseas educated Sandhurst/West Point graduates can't plan a simple operation? Oh, I get it, they are into entertainment business - let's stage another show, get cameras all around and call it something like "Arisman Jones and the kingdom of shooting watermelons". I wonder where is Lucas?

[bangkokrick]

THE NATION: Veteran comedian Thep Pho-ngarm joined muli-coloured patriot group led by Tul at Victory momument today. via Thai Rath.

I they have a face off. Arisman will win hands down!

Cheers, Rick

You mean a comedy showdown Rick?

Hummy

Yes of course I did. I have been pissing myself all day whilst reading Arisman's comments. Funniest man alive. Well for the time being anyway. lol

Cheers, Rick

[bkkjames]

This from a source that I can't mention on this forum... but it's not the nation

"Army commander-in-chief Anupong Paojinda has this afternoon issued an urgent order instructing the troop commanders with ranks from Maj Gen and higher to attend an extraordinary meeting at 1pm on Monday at Army Headquarters, reports said."

The daily news updates perhaps?

[kxfield]

How will it end????? Just an opinion !!!

I think Abhisit is an honourable man, who has tried his level best to avoid violence.

I think he now realises that the majority of both the army and the police are so divided and undisciplined that they cannot be relied upon to carry out any operations in the present circumstances.

There is either going to be a further descent into martial law, more extensive bloodshed or worse a civil war of sorts with only some army units remaining loyal.

Faced with this scenario I think he will resign and dissolve parliament , taking this course as a brave and honest man who does not want to see Thailand descend any further into chaos, and he is absolutely averse to another coup. I think Abhisit, would rather personally lose face than see Thailand erupt further and the military take over. He is a democrat and only a courageous man could make such a decision that may cost him his political life, but for the sake of Thailand he might make that decision.

If he does, and the Democrats or their new party are able to find someone with enough character and charisma to lead them then the red shirts political allies will most probably be defeated at the ballot box as the majority of Thai voters have realised what they are about.

Even if the red shirts political friends were to win, I think one can assume that Thaksin will never return to a position of power, for very long, as this would immediately initiate another coup or an assassination, as the number of enemies he had amongst the military and elite that initiated the last coup have now increased considerably.

[bkkjames]

Some people are either being deliberately thick to stir the pot or really are lacking in brainpower. Personally I would not call the majority of grass-roots reds terrorists. They're not. They have genuine grievances that need to be heard. They need the right to better education (without bribes determining how far they go and what grades they get), healthcare etc. The terrorists are the leaders and Sae Daeng's lot.

This causes a problem. Some people here lump them all together. Wrong approach guys. The ordinary reds probably have no idea about the more sinister side of things, and don't forget they're there on the ground or at home watching red tv only getting a very limited set of information (information management is something the red leaders have handled very cleverly). Btw in case anyone thinks I'm biased I also think other media sources are pretty <deleted> but we have the option of scanning the channels, seeing different views on twitter etc. The guys at the rally don't have that option.

This presents a real problem for government/police/army to handle even if they were competent. If terrorists are hiding among civilians (I count terrorists as people who carry grenade launchers and ak47s and use them) how do you take them out without harming civilians? It's a tough call. Warn them and the terrorists will flee. Don't warn them and you'll have a bloodbath. Take no action and the belligerent leadership will keep on pushing and keep on making things even more lawless. And with the grass-roots reds being so lovey-dovey while the iron fist of the red terrorists lurks unseen, the world's media will rip you to pieces if you take action.

Of course the above was on the assumption of competence. Crap. We can't make that assumption. We have police who lack the skill to handle crowd-control and frankly don't give a crap anyway, and an army that's split through the middle and stuffed with watermelons. Sae Daeng vs Thai Police and army? You know who's going to win.

Now the problem here is that whichever side 'wins' will face the same problem. If an armed group rises against them they have no means to do anything about it, lacking competent police and army. This makes Thailand incapable of having a functioning government. Which brings me to the present government.

If I was Abhisit I'd say "<deleted> to this" and leave everyone else to it, as the PM's job is an absolute poisoned chalice and anyone who takes the job is doomed to lose it within a fairly short space of time. I don't think any truly democratic leader will last more than 2 years from here on in, until a radical shift happens in Thailand.

So who can rule Thailand? Whoever has a big and ruthless private army (because the state one is hopeless). One could argue that this is the reds, with Sae Daeng's lot. Yep, Thailand has backed itself into a corner where the only type of leader who can successfully rule is an armed despot. No civilian leader will have a chance, because more thugs will come and the state army and police will fail again. So the future is either red-yellow-red-yellow-red-yellow or a slide into brutal dictatorship.

Personally I don't see a way out and that bothers me. I love Thailand, I really do (admittedly mostly for the food) but I just don't see a way out of this mess Maybe that's why I'm not a diplomat, rather just another anonymous wanke_r on the internet.

Very well thought out Post... I agree completely.

The problems here are systemic.. No matter how many times you recycle the parts, if the system is broke the machine can never function. Fact !!

Not only are Thais not ready for Real democracy, through a lack of understanding what Real democracy is and what it entails (not their fault, really).... but also,The Multi-Party system they have set up works totally against them and has been perverted by the deficiencies of culture. With Nepotism and Corruption the driving forces, and Political parties run as fiefdoms, bought and paid for, how can ANY democratically elected Prime Minister and/or government really function.. All Governments exists at the sufferance of their coalition partners whose support is bought with the distribution of Ministerial Piggy banks. any attempt in interfere in the Coalition feeding trough is met with the threat of support withdrawal and the imminent fall of the government.

No individual minister is held responsible and accountable, so they go about doing as they please.. No amount of "Orders" and policy set at the top has any effect on performance. No threats of dismissal are taken seriously... Not when the only effect of dismissal is the shifting (with pay) to an "inactive" Position of Non-Responsibility.. not a real firing.. or jail.

So nothing EVER changes.... and anyone who thinks the Red leaders (or the Yellows) are really fighting for true systemic change has been smoking too much ganja, or are related to the Cheshire cat. The Leaders of both camps are only fighting for their own turn at the trough... and the poor uneducated and disadvantaged of this country remain the Pawns they have always been.

So it has always been written... So It will always be done!

CS

Many thanks to you two for injecting some intelligent thinking into this otherwise depressingly double digit IQ thread...

well aren't you just Mr. Special.

[humfurry]

Many thanks to you two for injecting some intelligent thinking into this otherwise depressingly double digit IQ thread...

Sorry but I'm still laughing too hard from that scene of Arissman dangling from the rope to be serious...

[ozzieman05]

"""" You mean if I stay at a Hilton hotel ...it's all about Paris Hilton """"

Yes

If she pays the bill

[hpl]

BANGKOK, April 16 (Reuters)

The SC Park hotel is owned by the family of former Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra who was ousted in an army coup in 2006 and is the de facto leader of the red shirts.

http://www.iii.co.uk/news/?type=afxnews&am...;action=article

So much for all these silly notions that the red shirts are not about Thaksin.

You mean if I stay at a Hilton hotel ...it's all about Paris Hilton---the spiritual leader of all airheads?

No, the connection to Thaksin is much closer than with Hilton; there's that and also that Paris isn't the de facto leader of a bunch of gangsters trying to take over a country.

[Tywais]

Post quoting the Bangkok Post has been deleted. Please refrain from posting quotes or links to the BP as per forum rules and BP policy.

[humfurry]

Many thanks to you two for injecting some intelligent thinking into this otherwise depressingly double digit IQ thread...

well aren't you just Mr. Special.

James I bet he read your posts 3 times each...

[CosmicSurfer]

THE NATION: Nw Arisman &other leaders have had a hard time explaining to Rajprasong reds why they stayed at the hotel in the first place.

THE NATION: One excuse by Arisman is the leaders had to be at the hotel coz they needed to "dress up" before paying visits to TV stations today.

Considering that just about everything the Nation reports as analysis is just rumors, I would not put much weight into anything they say. I am sure that most of the reds know quite well that their leaders do not sleep on the streets, certainly not every day.

I still don't even understand the point of it. I suppose everybody thinks that everybody in an organization should be the same? Did Mao sleep in the streets too? Did Stalin? Or Mussolini? Or do the Generals in the military sleep in the barracks with the rank and file? I just think it is so amazingly naive to think that the people expect them to be eating the same food and sharing the same bed with them.

How irrational can you be just because you hate the reds so much? It only makes your rants less credible and comical.

Ironic that the examples of good behavior and leadership sited were > Mao, Stalin and Mussolini.. maybe he should add Hitler and GW Bush... all leaders that led from the comfortable Rear while sending their own countrymen to be slaughtered in the name of their own Power hungry delusions.

CS

[lensta]

Oh and don't forget at Rajaprasong they released balloons to stop the helicopters!!

I think someone needs to look at the military's budget.

Democracy and Freedom have a price. I hope democracy starts now..uphold the law, don't give and inch, arrest them all for being pirates and if the Red Shirts cannot police the bad element amongst them, then they are all guilty. Lock them all up or let the water cannons filled with 50% bleach fire all day long. Morons.

This is not how it works. You need to understand that many of the red shirts are protesting for democracy. For better wealth distribution. This is what they believe. This is what they stand for.

Unfortunately it might be quite a long shot from what their leaders have in their agenda.

Bleaching a grandpa and grandma who seriously believe that they are sitting and sleeping on the asphalt road of Rajprasong so that their grandchildren have a better life is taking your frustration against the wrong people.

Yet in the end, if things get out of control, and for some reason I think that very soon they will, it will be exactly these people who pay the ultimate price, while their leaders flee with private jets to Fiji.

I would still like to see a peaceful resolution to this, but at the same time wish for the resolution that won't just swap the tables and change the color of the mob on the streets, but one where Thailand can get back on its feet, where people of different backgrounds can live together in peace and harmony without fear of intimidation, and where not just wealth is better distributed, but also health care and education of all levels is made available to all.

Do I believe that would ever happen?

If Obama wasn't president of US and there wasn't swine flu epidemic last year I'd say "When US elects a black president and pigs can fly".

"releasing ballons to stop helicopters from flying "my foot.Need to spray some rounds and disperse the crowd,then move in,done in Nam.

It takes a blib to do that,besides with the backwash of the rotor blades and hovering for a few minutes,they need to release 10k balloons to have a impact.

Cannot do,downing a "copter (blackhawk down) takes a trained militia with RPG"s.

<Bleaching a grandpa and grandma>,better than killing/maiming them.

I think,pepperspray is more human.

60 % of rowdys in red are metered- taxidrivers/motorcycle taxi drivers, working shifts,they are Taxins army.

A new motorcycle here, a new taxi there, "and bobs your uncle",they demonstrate until Christmas.

(if there are still some alive)

And Nam was a rousing success. I believe there were a few demos held worldwide because of the involvement of the US, UK, Aust etc etc

[catmac]

Isn't it a bit odd that all or most of the Red Shirt / Thaksin supporters here are new forum members ???

Just not true. I have only ever posted under this identity, and have consistently supported the red movement (whilst expressing no white-washng of Thaksin). We are used to being insulted, accused of being paid by some wierd PR outfit in Hong Kong (though that slur seems to have died a death!) and now my 6 years of Forum membership is to be erased!

6 years and 437 posts. Pacing yourself or just not much to say? jk

By the way do you know the Red member called StevieW from Chiang Mai? On Saturdays and Sundays he put on his Scouse shirt and from what I hear protests rather strongly about his leader too - Rafa.

I post only when I feel I have something to add to the debate, not to just add to my post count. In this thread, for example, there have been some really good, well thought through posts from both sides of the great divide, and then there are posters like Jingthing who just post the sams old drivel time after time. I think it was in only my third post ever that I said that one sensible, informative post was worth more than a thousand dollops of dross, a view that I have not changed.

Re your second point, no, I'm afraid that I don't mix much with the ex-pats here.

[123ace]

good on them

shame on you

another red shirted bleeding heart who thinks lawlessness, murder and bully boy intimidation is acceptable

No shame on you for supporting a system that oppresses the majority so a selected minority can have a comfortable lifestyle.

hagler - ask yourself why the 'selected minority' seem totally unphased by what is going on? why aren't they selling assets and leaving? You will find out after the event that perhaps things are not what they seem.

[10027586]

Thank you to the kind words, even from some people who I've had disagreements with in the past. I hope for the sake of everyone in Thailand that we can get a peaceful resolution, and that smarter people than any of us find a way to make that happen.

[Kaweeka]

THE NATION: Veteran comedian Thep Pho-ngarm joined muli-coloured patriot group led by Tul at Victory momument today. via Thai Rath.

I they have a face off. Arisman will win hands down!

Cheers, Rick

Oh, oh!! Not from The Nation!! It must be true then

By the way, nice job at parsing words, rather than looking at the context of the paragraphs. You did not address the issue of why is that any of you believe that the red leaders (or yellow leaders back then for that matter) need to sleep on the streets with the rest of their followers? There are a few exceptions to the rule, but in general that is hardly the case.

Where is AV sleeping now? Is he leading? Is he even participating in the process of what steps are to be taken next? Suthep has yet to succeed at ANYTHING he does, yet he is the one doing all the talking around. Doesn't that tell you anything?