Top Army, Navy Units Readied For Red-Shirts Dispersal

[Mosha]

A question to the expats. Re the Nai telling the Phrai how to vote, which I've never seen in our Moo Ban. What I do see is my SIL telling my wife how to vote. My response to my wife is vote what is in your head and not your heart.

So have anyothers come across this and how do you handle it.

Edited April 19, 2010 by Mosha

[steveromagnino]

The Departed was a barely fictionalized story of Whitey Bulger a notorious Boston Irish Mobster.

Who I had the misfortune to actually meet once. He ran most rackets in Beantown for 25 years,

while shopping out various associates to keep the cops busy, happy or looking elsewhere.

He is presently 'whereabouts unknown', wonders of plastic surgery no doubts,

but most definitely on the most wanted list.

While Martin Scosese hit it out of the park with a fantastic film true to the area, the storyline itself is fairly directly taken from Infernal Affairs which is more on the action side and less on the grime and grit of the American mobsters. I don't doubt the characters themselves are presumably based on specific gangsters stateside, as hong kong triads with Irish names wouldn't really work too good.

Perhaps Whitey can hang out with Frank in F1J1, they probably have a lot in common. And I don't mean Frank Costello, I mean Frank who does it his way.

Edited April 19, 2010 by steveromagnino

[Thai at Heart]

Yup... Some people seem to have very short memories.

And, apparently some forgot how this was forced down, when the junta leader actually said 'you can either vote for this consitution, or you will get one I hold behind my back'.

Super Thai Democracy in Action !

What an utter nons....... Winnie!

http://asiafoundation.org/in-asia/2007/09/...the-referendum/

Every day you learn something new, even being old and grey Thank you for the article

Indeed an interesting article.

Didn't the referendum take place on the same day as the general election. What would have been the result if the referendum hadn't passed? Under which constitution would the new government have been formed?

And I think it is fair to say, that there was very little nationwide critical coverage of the new constitution since it was put together under the CNS and conveniently had a get out of jail free card contained in it for the coup makers.

Interestingly didn't the current constitution also codify "Sufficiency" economics into the constitution? Anyone heard a peep out of anyone about this recently?

[OzMick]

I have noticed that it is the yellows on here that resort to personal abuse to other posters. How about putting your points across in a calm balanced non abusive manner.

I think it goes both ways tony, but not very constructive and childish none the less.

When you describe as a yellow anybody who doesn't swallow your rose-coloured view, then you deserve abuse. Polite enough for you?

[Chaimai]

The great Bob Paisley once said 'if you shout people don't listen, if you speak softly they listen'

I think you will find that Brian Clough achieved more by NOT speaking softly.

[steveromagnino]

Indeed an interesting article.

Didn't the referendum take place on the same day as the general election. What would have been the result if the referendum hadn't passed? Under which constitution would the new government have been formed?

And I think it is fair to say, that there was very little nationwide critical coverage of the new constitution since it was put together under the CNS and conveniently had a get out of jail free card contained in it for the coup makers.

Interestingly didn't the current constitution also codify "Sufficiency" economics into the constitution? Anyone heard a peep out of anyone about this recently?

referendum 19 August

election 23 December

I can't recall offhand but certainly sufficiency economics weren't the major change; rather attempting to make the senate more independent from the HOR (as was envisaged in the 1997 constitution until TRT bought off many of the senate members) and some more serious restrictions on employment separation of media from politics and penalties for cheating - all in response to what we saw in 2001-06 - and yes, a get out of jail card as I recall for the CNS (they always write that in for a constitution, just like what Thaksin is trying to write in for himself).

Part of the issue was the military govt actually had a referendum at all and also attempted to write the constitution in record time when the country was already in factions; someone like Weng (yes, the twit who talks too much in the red shirt brigade) should have probably been given the chance to be involved as a well known democracy fighter for many years....but on some level there simply wasn't enough time to create the right document.

But to extend the time would then also extend the period of military government.

Edited April 19, 2010 by steveromagnino

[JohnLeech]

One of my firends, member of an elite force,.....remarked that there are elements within the Reds that are messing with the one thing that is holy to all "real" Thais.

Not just the Reds. Even Kasit Piromya has been talking about "reforming" certain things.

[anotherpeter]

Now I know this is thailand and some posters on T/V seem quite thick, but an intelligent person might be lead to believe that if the MP's switched sides to allow another party to run the government, it might have been in the best interest of their constituents seeing as that's who elected them and that's whose interests they are supposed to watch out for.

Possibly ... on the other hand "an intelligent person" might also consider that some of the MPs couldn't care less about what was "in the best interest of their constituents" and that all they cared about was what was in their own best interests.

Just an idea, as some MPs in the past seem to have had this as a priority ....

You're probably 100% right JL, but it doesn't alter the fact that they *can* change sides if they want, and it doesn't need to involve an election.

A lot of the smaller parties actually campaigned in the election that they wouldn't support the PPP. If they didn't support them, the Democrats would have been in government from the start.

[hammered]

Now I know this is thailand and some posters on T/V seem quite thick, but an intelligent person might be lead to believe that if the MP's switched sides to allow another party to run the government, it might have been in the best interest of their constituents seeing as that's who elected them and that's whose interests they are supposed to watch out for.

Possibly ... on the other hand "an intelligent person" might also consider that some of the MPs couldn't care less about what was "in the best interest of their constituents" and that all they cared about was what was in their own best interests.

Just an idea, as some MPs in the past seem to have had this as a priority ....

You're probably 100% right JL, but it doesn't alter the fact that they *can* change sides if they want, and it doesn't need to involve an election.

A lot of the smaller parties actually campaigned in the election that they wouldn't support the PPP. If they didn't support them, the Democrats would have been in government from the start.

Basically MPs the world over dont give a !"£$ about their constituents except by bunging a few sweetners or running a hate campaign against opponets artouynd election time. MPs are beholden to who gives the money in any country. Money winms elections one way or another. Cynical but true.

However, we now face something quite dangerous in Thailand and the MPs have little or no power over it anymore. Things have changed recently. I dont know what but you can sense things are on a different plain. All we can do is watch and hope it goes better than anyone expects

[britmaveric]

Not just the Reds. Even Kasit Piromya has been talking about "reforming" certain things.

I think you might be surprised if real thai(s) were able to speak about such matters - what they would say. However the laws being the laws this can't not be done - think it's more of how majeste is being used rather than what most anti-reds think. Nothing has changed for all thai people regarding the affection and love for the big guy regardless of what some people might say.

[Thai at Heart]

Indeed an interesting article.

Didn't the referendum take place on the same day as the general election. What would have been the result if the referendum hadn't passed? Under which constitution would the new government have been formed?

And I think it is fair to say, that there was very little nationwide critical coverage of the new constitution since it was put together under the CNS and conveniently had a get out of jail free card contained in it for the coup makers.

Interestingly didn't the current constitution also codify "Sufficiency" economics into the constitution? Anyone heard a peep out of anyone about this recently?

referendum 19 August

election 23 December

I can't recall offhand but certainly sufficiency economics weren't the major change; rather attempting to make the senate more independent from the HOR (as was envisaged in the 1997 constitution until TRT bought off many of the senate members) and some more serious restrictions on employment separation of media from politics and penalties for cheating - all in response to what we saw in 2001-06 - and yes, a get out of jail card as I recall for the CNS (they always write that in for a constitution, just like what Thaksin is trying to write in for himself).

Thanks for clarifying the dates. I stand corrected.

I think it is obvious that holding a referendum under a time of military control isn't a wonderful situation, but none the less it was passed. I seem to remember reports that it was technically not allowed to campaign against the constitution. The article states otherwise but,

http://bangkokpundit.blogspot.com/2007/08/...n-campaign.html

The referendum on the draft constitution has the facade of being a democratic choice, but it is being carried out under a distinctly undemocratic and repressive climate. Under the threat of the Council for National Security (CNS) being free to choose any charter they want and amend it as they see fit if the public votes down the new constitution, the referendum becomes redundant. This is not democracy, this is not the rule of law. The CNS is reportedly commanding all military and police officers and their families to vote in favour of the charter they drew up. Officers are reportedly told to act as ''charter ambassadors'' to canvass for its passage. And the state propaganda machine is pumping on all cylinders through radio, television, local officials, the Internal Security Operations Command (Isoc), the army _ it seems every ounce of manpower possible is being used to push for a ''yes'' vote.

Martial law is in place across half the country. That is the harsh reality of today, and it is not an environment that would be conducive to a free and fair referendum. Any referendum carried out under the current repressive climate and alleged forced voting cannot be used to chart the path of the future of a democracy.

Whilst I am not discounting the validity of what the other article I questioned. It was obvious at the time, that there was not an entirely free country conducting an entirely free vote, with entirely free information.

But then TIT. Since when is any vote completely free and informed.

One of the other changes was of course banning the party for wrongdoing of the executive, which as we know has become quite a big bugbear.

And of course consultation vis a vis environmental impact of industry which has caused quite a problem in Mapthaput.

[BNZ]

MCOT: Chavalit, Somchai announce 5 demands to end violence; urge govt to dissolve Parliament,revoke State of Emergency,stop distorting information

Soo... how does one read that? As admission that they are behind violence?

[TheOldWolf]

MCOT: Court dismisses Puea Thai Party complaint against PM, DPM, Cabinet for blocking PTV, 'unlawful' Emergency Decree, saying action is legal

Anyone surpriced? Have PTP ever domne anything correct? It is not an opposition party it is an obstructing party and has been like that all the time. They don´t know how to govern and the don´t know av to be in oppositin. Still some people in TV think they will save Thailand.

[neverdie]

Abhisit the stubborn mule needs to dissolve parliament before this gets nasty.

I see you've removed your red shirt (lovely display of beer guts) but your still at it with this rubbish. Talk about a

[senti]

There's no point in arguing with a zealot - they will always say they are right, even if they are patently wrong.

As you say...no point in repeating the arguments - well, information, really. That has been done dozens of times in the past week, and the red shirt zealots - fanatics? - refuse to accept the fact that Mr Abhisit was elected by the representatives of the people, just the way a constitutional monarchy should be done. And had been done with the prior 'red' administrations. Mr Thaksin never garnered more than 40% of the popular vote, yet he led a coalition as PM. If it was right for Mr Thaksin, why would it be wrong for Mr Abhisit.

Nah, no point in using logic... and I'm going to stop repeating the information too. It seems it's just a waste of bandwidth to rationally explain things to zealots/fanatics.

All the places I've been living in had political systems where you vote for MPs, and PM is basically appointed by the majority.

Thailand holds elections where voters vote for PM directly?

edit 2: In other words, I am confused as to what are "reds" complaining about. If you don't choose PM directly, why would anyone being appointed as PM be an issue for anyone? Majority makes a choice. But if PM is elected directly, I see why reds would complain. There is so much noise about this right now, I can't figure out how the election system in Thailand works anymore, argh

edit: whoops, had to remove lots of quotes, post was gigantic

Edited April 19, 2010 by senti

[hammered]

Chavalit is as much part of the problem as anyone else and his record in the military (Ban Rhom Khlao) and poltics (1997) is worse than most. He ius Ammat at its worst. Entitled becuse of position and not ability

[pornsasi]

Yup... Some people seem to have very short memories.

And, apparently some forgot how this was forced down, when the junta leader actually said 'you can either vote for this consitution, or you will get one I hold behind my back'.

Super Thai Democracy in Action !

What an utter nons....... Winnie!

http://asiafoundation.org/in-asia/2007/09/...the-referendum/

Referendum on 2007 constitution

Media used included all television, cable and radio stations, websites, print media outlets, government agencies, education institutions, billboards and places where crowds gather. All state-run schools and universities were involved in the campaign. Spots were aired from 6 am until 10 pm with the message "Approve: New Constitution, close to the people"

The junta then agreed to a debate regarding the draft, but refused to air the debate on television, because it would create confusion among the public.[43] A debate was later aired on Nation Channel, a subscription-only cable channel, rather than on one of the government-owned free-to-air channels.

In late July, General Sonthi said that if the draft constitution failed the referendum, the junta would modify the 1997 Constitution for permanent use.

The junta passed a law that made criticism of the draft and opposition to the constitutional referendum a criminal act. Political parties were not allowed to persuade voters to cast ballots in favour or not in favour of the constitution. Any violators could be banned from politics for 5 years and jailed for 10 years.[2]

The restrictions against opposition to the draft were criticized by human rights bodies. “Even if amended to allow for ‘factual’ campaigning on the referendum, it is clear that the main purpose of the law is to intimidate and silence persons who don’t share the official view,” the Asian Human Rights Commission (AHRC) said. “Meanwhile the administration is pumping vast amounts of money into Yes propaganda that is set to increase quickly.”[51]

The ban against campaigning against the constitution was enforced. In July, 20 soldiers and 10 policemen raided the house of a politician and seized anti-charter t-shirts, banners, documents, and recorded speeches

Martial law is in place across half the country. That is the harsh reality of today, and it is not an environment that would be conducive to a free and fair referendum. Any referendum carried out under the current repressive climate and alleged forced voting cannot be used to chart the path of the future of a democracy.[58]

Bangkok Post

Yes it was democratic LOL

Note : Thais are very courageous people indeed , 10 millions voted against

[whiterussian]

Guess what else. This is a defacto statement that the General trusts no one else. If you thought there is a divide in the country's military before, here is a resounding statement that the only troops General trusts are his own units. Talk about blowing off ythe other generals, or maybe those generals said no, we will not help. Hang onto your hats, because the seeds of a major rebellion have now been sown.

That's scary. Thanks for the insight.

This is what it must have been like hundreds of years ago back in the western countries, and America..

Thank goodness I failed the Naval Officers interview back when I was a snot nosed kid. (Not that they have actually done any work since then)... could have been a cushty gig... like my old pal Lt Commander Mike, naval pension from 1947 to 2009. sweet.

[robint]

As already said, there are thousands of generals to chose from - yes really

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Military-Gen...al-t275444.html

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/KC12Ae01.html

Sadly the whole world is getting a sordid close up of the true level of corruption, lack of loyalty/trust and naked self interest that characterises what we long timers have always known but was always a well kept secret carefully hidden from outside eyes.

The cat is truly out of the bag and I doubt it will ever be hidden again from world scrutiny. The damage done to the image of what was once a magical and amazing LOS is truly incalculable.

IMHO when the current gov eventually stands down for the election process - as it surely will in the near future - we will then be presented with an even greater turmoil of bent electioneering and vote rigging. The hel_l will not be over till the square head gets his way.

It is with sincere regret that I conclude (IMHO) that square head may be the only bandit with enough clout to resolve the matter - he has already shown what he can do - and dont forget that he was doing very well until he made that fatal mistake of vanity when he sold off ykw to ykw. If that does happen then all you flangs better GTF outa here because SH will come down on you lot with a white hot vengeance after the pasting he has received overseas.

[TAWP]

He wasn't elected - go read - I can't be bothered to repeat the arguements - the red government (which was elected) was banned and MPs jumped ship - do your homework

Explain to us like we are 5 year old's. Why was he not elected? I clearly remember there was an election in the parliament for the PM to be approved.

[BNZ]

Some pictures from Silom a few hours ago ...

So the 'Reds' declined to show up for their appointment in Silom this morning.

That's bad manners.

I'm sure there is another appointment on the dance card for them.

[TheOldWolf]

I think everyone here agrees that there must be a change in constituion. So do PM. He likes everyone in Thailand to get involved and decide in a referandum. The reds wants the 1997 constitionen back and like to change it their own way. I think Thailands need a real constitionen as a backboone and it must be careful worked out in every aspect and not be able to change by every new goverment.

[animatic]

The great Bob Paisley once said 'if you shout people don't listen, if you speak softly they listen'

Which explains why so few in this nation actually listen to Jatuprawn....

[steveromagnino]

He wasn't elected - go read - I can't be bothered to repeat the arguements - the red government (which was elected) was banned and MPs jumped ship - do your homework

Explain to us like we are 5 year old's. Why was he not elected? I clearly remember there was an election in the parliament for the PM to be approved.

judging by your avatar (not the James Cameron one) you ARE 5 years old. Maybe less.

'I think everyone here agrees that there must be a change in constituion. So do PM. He likes everyone in Thailand to get involved and decide in a referandum. The reds wants the 1997 constitionen back and like to change it their own way. I think Thailands need a real constitionen as a backboone and it must be careful worked out in every aspect and not be able to change by every new goverment.' (the old wolf)

In fact, the PT want to change to something, but won't say exactly what, they just want to get a mandate to do so via a general election. Basically, the 1997 constitution is part of it, but they need the kicker as well for a spot of amnesty, otherwise this entire 'fight for democracy' is a waste of time.

Edited April 19, 2010 by steveromagnino

[pornsasi]

Some pictures from Silom a few hours ago ...

The interesting part is that you were allowed to take those pictures .

Thailand is maybe democratic after all

Great pics anyway , thanks

[TAWP]

And you know full well that switching governement from one party to its oposition WITHOUT consulting the people is totally undemocratic .

Uhh, what?

It is FULLY democratic, as the ELECTION was about appointing the MPs that will make the decisions on your behalf. Which they did.

Ps. Some of the parties that joined the PPP-coalition did so against what several of their MPs had pledged during the election. Since that then was clearly against their stated aim, shouldn't that be called more un-democratic and result, in your view, in new immediate elections? Or MPs are allowed to change their minds? (As fickle schoolchildren as they are.)

[hammered]

One observation. Apparently some of the units that were upset at Anupong and the government were special forces who had been excluded from decent promotions. Today they are at the front of proposed action. What caused this change?

[TAWP]

You seem to forget that campaning for a "NO" , under that military governement was not possible . Which explain the relatively low attendance . So do you think democratic ?

Is that the latest lie pushed out by Thaksin, like the one denying it was the reds being violent in Songkran 2009?

Check google ...

Mr Google said that you are wrong.

[Throatwobbler]

Which would solve exactly NOTHING... so any other bright ideas?

Umm Errr Have an Election

So the next time 100,000 people come out calling for an election, the next government will call an election too, won't they. And then after that ............

That would seem to be the precedent set by the PAD, so yes.

The PPP did not dissolve Parliament either, so the government are following the precedent set by their predecessors.

The PPP were disbanded by the courts for electoral fraud. Who knows the Democrats may follow this precedent as well when their case goes before the courts.

[connel707]

Tail wagging the dog.

That said, it must be comforting for some to know that these middle class fascists are back running the country.

Well done PAD, you might get off with your airport charges if you can engineer a bloodbath for your masters.

At least we are seeing the emergence of the true sheep in this country as they trot their little minions out.

No policy, no resolutions, no party, no votes, no mandate, no brains. Go PAD go a and show what you can do.....

Surely Grandpops, thats what democracy is all about... Up the Yellows...