Spouse visit to UK

[DrJPB]

Me & my wife (British National) are living overseas ever since we got married (in Dec,2004), we have completed 4 years outside UK.

My wife usually visit UK every year, and i follow her after a month or two to spend my holidays with her (& with my in-laws). And i have other relatives in UK (Brother & Uncles), who all have british nationality.

So each year i have to apply for 6 month visit visa. Now this year for the first time in my life, i tried to apply for 2 year (family visit) visa and i am being refused, well the reason was that only this time i didn't submit my marriage certificate and i forgot to enter few other details in the form. That was the objection that lack of marriage proof & incomplete information in form about the relatives & my stay in UK (again, this was the first time i forget to provide all this info).

I am planning to appeal but due to urgency, i reapplied for 6 months, and am planning to appeal after i return back from UK.

I re-applied on 28th March, and so far i haven't received my passport yet. Again this is the first time it took this long for the process to complete. Last year i got the visa next day. So what might be going on, why so delay?

Now the main questions,:-

Am i eligible to apply for 2 years or more, as a family visit visa?

How can i avoid the hassle of applying each year for visa.

What is a spouse visa and am i eligible?

Not to forget, i have no plans for permanent migration to UK so far.

Thanks & Regards.

Edited April 13, 2010 by DrJPB

[7by7]

The reason for the refusal is very simple, as you said yourself

this time i didn't submit my marriage certificate and i forgot to enter few other details in the form.

OK, I'll accept that you could have forgotten to include your marriage certificate; but how could you forget to enter details on the form? You say that this is not your first application!

I see little point in appealing.

Visa applications do take a little longer at this time of year, due to an increase in applications and the Easter and Songkran holidays. Current turnaround times on visit visas is reportedly 10 to 15 working days. This assumes you are applying in Thailand.

You can apply for a 2, 5 or even 10 year visit visa; see VAT1.4 Visa validity - What period for a multiple entry visit visa?

A spouse visa would not be suitable; it is a form of visa which allows settlement in the UK, which you say you don't want.

[DrJPB]

The reason for the refusal is very simple, as you said yourself [quote]this time i didn't submit my marriage certificate and i forgot to enter few other details in the form.OK, I'll accept that you could have forgotten to include your marriage certificate; but how could you forget to enter details on the form? You say that this is not your first application!

As for the marriage contract, i got over confident, that i don't have to prove my self (that the previous visa ref. is enough). As for the incomplete information, that was a technical error, as i use PDF editor to fill form, and my stupidity that i didn't go through the form after printing & signing.

I see little point in appealing.

200 pounds......

Visa applications do take a little longer at this time of year, due to an increase in applications and the Easter and Songkran holidays. Current turnaround times on visit visas is reportedly 10 to 15 working days. This assumes you are applying in Thailand.

I applied in Kuwait through VFS, i submitted the new application on 28th March (for six months). What i worry is that they are intentionally delaying my application, waiting for the appeal date to be over, which is 24th april. Is there any way i can inquire about the status? I tried calling VFS many times, and complaining them about the delay, they are convinced and they did send the embassy reminder, but in vain. Isn't there any way i can inquire? or what's my rights here?

You can apply for a 2, 5 or even 10 year visit visa; see VAT1.4 Visa validity - What period for a multiple entry visit visa?

Which means the refusal was not because i applied for 2 years this time, it was due to lack of document & information, if i apply again then i do have chances to get approved for 2 or more year visa, right?

Thanks for the link.

A spouse visa would not be suitable; it is a form of visa which allows settlement in the UK, which you say you don't want.

Then which is the best option for me to enter UK easily (by not applying for UK visa each year)?

Thanks for all the answers, i really appreciate.

Best regards.

[bobrussell]

To the best of my knowledge there is no charge for appealing so this should not be a big deal. However there is not much point in wasting their time and yours if your application was incomplete. It is down to you to provide the information required. An appeal is primarily designed for people that think the application has not been correctly considered or an unfair decision made.

It is not for people to have another go if they did not get the paperwork done. Having said that there should be nothing to stop you trying.

It is unlikely they are deliberately delaying your application for any reason. They do not seem well enough organised to do that! I suspect your application is in a pile of others in the office waiting to be processed.

[DrJPB]

It is not for people to have another go if they did not get the paperwork done.

Thanks for clearing things up, cause i was thinking that it's sort of another go.

It is unlikely they are deliberately delaying your application for any reason. They do not seem well enough organised to do that! I suspect your application is in a pile of others in the office waiting to be processed.

I doubt about the load, cause the VFS center is also convinced that it's taking extra time for my application. I was thinking another possibility, may be they want to refuse & provide me with new Appeal papers, but they have to wait for the first Appeal expiry date (24th April). Is it possible?

Man i am so much stressed. Last year i got the visa next day.

[7by7]

All appeals must be submitted within 28 days of the refusal. There is nothing to stop you from submitting a second application and an appeal at the same time; so if you wish to appeal you should do so before the 28 days is up; even if you have not by that time had a decision on the second application. Appeals can take up to 6 months to be decided, so if you want to visit the UK now you should get another visa any way.

However, as I said before; there is little point in appealing. The reason for my saying so is because I cannot see any appeal being successful. It is not the ECO's fault that you didn't provide a necessary document; it is not the ECO's fault that you didn't check the form properly before submitting it.

The immigration rules are quite clear on this point; the onus is on the applicant to provide all the necessary information; you didn't. Lesson learned, hopefully.

You can find the latest actual processing times for Kuwait here. Note that this guide is updated around the middle of each month, so it is still showing the figures for February; March should appear soon.

If you want to regularly visit the UK without having to apply for a visa each time, then obviously a longer term visit visa is the answer. This table gives you the current fees (in Sterling) for each term. Even at £610, a 10 year visit visa is still cheaper than a 27 month spouse settlement visa (£644).

One important point to remember is that even with a long term visit visa you will still be limited to a maximum of 6 months in the UK per visit. You could also be refused entry if it was apparent that you could be spending more than 6 months out of any 12 in the UK as a visitor; unless you had an acceptable reason for doing so.

[DrJPB]

All appeals must be submitted within 28 days of the refusal. There is nothing to stop you from submitting a second application and an appeal at the same time; so if you wish to appeal you should do so before the 28 days is up; even if you have not by that time had a decision on the second application. Appeals can take up to 6 months to be decided, so if you want to visit the UK now you should get another visa any way.

Thank you very much, for the explanation, obviously i have learnt my lesson well. And thanks for all your efforts.

Thanking all who help me.

[seaneee]

Im really sorry that you have been refused, but as 7by7 says it was you that failed to submit the correct paperwork. My wife was refused twice earlier this year in similar circumstances. It sucks i know how you feel.

I wonder is it unreasonable considering the amount of money the application cost you that the ECO give you a quick call on the phone and ask that you forward the missing paperwork within say 7 days. If you do, then visa passed, if you dont then visa refused no questions asked. Surely that is better than just leaving you £200 out of pocket.

[ThaiVisaExpress]

It is quite normal for you to insert the marriage cert with the application only for the ECO to lose it and claim it was not inserted ?

Or another classic one is to refuse a family visit and keep all the bank statements from the previous application and then refuse you because you never inserted any bank statements which they have kept three days earlier.

Or another one is to turn up at UK/VAC with a same sex proposed civil partners application, they then decide its a marriage visa and write all over the form, I then show them the Immigration rules which it clearly is a Fiance/ proposed civil partners application. They then refuse to re print the form and I have to go and find an office which charge me 300 baht to print the original form I inserted, they then apologize and say I am correct and blame the Embassy .

As I said you cannot beat application experience dealing with the incompetent Embassy is an eye opener to say the least.

[DrJPB]

With reference to my

www.thaivisa.com/forum/Spouse-Visa-uk-t356035.html

(Previous Post) i received my passport back, along with the Appeals paper, as i am being refused for the second time.

This is what ECO has to say:-

I am satisfied that your application meets the requirements of the sub paragraph (viii) of paragraph 41 of the immigration Rules.

Do you know what 4.1 (viii) states?, well here goes:-

4.1 (viii) is not a child under the age of 18.

?????

I have submitted my application along with all the supporting documents, and all he/she is satisfied is that i am not a child!

Further more, ECO refusal reason:-

Further to your previous refusal, you have stated that your wife is a British national, and have submitted a copy of British Passport in her name. However, once again you have failed to submit your marriage certificate to confirm your stated relationship.

As my Marriage certificate is in Urdu language, issued in Pakistan, we are living in Kuwait after the marriage, i don't have resources to translate the Urdu marriage certificate to English. As an alternative, I have submitted (& being submitting since 2006, and never being refused visa) Affidavit (declare & acknowledge), issued from Pakistani Embassy Kuwait on the behalf of the urdu marriage certificate, & attested from Ministry of Foreign affairs Kuwait, declaring that she's my legal wife.

So is this not enough for ECO to accept as an alternative of Marriage Certificate?

Also i have submitted Birth Certificate, issued in UK on 2006, showing name of both parents (my wife & ME), is this not another kind of proof as we are in a relationship?

ECO refusal continues:-

I note from your application that your father in law will pay for your food & accommodation. However you have failed to submit any details of the accommodation available.

An email invitation from my Father-in-Law was submitted, in which my uncle clearly stated that i am allowed to stay the period of April & May with them.

So what else ECO is expecting me to show as accommodation availability proof?

Last refusal reason of ECO:-

I have noticed that you are on leave from 04/04/2010 to 10/05/2010. However the ticket submitted shows your return date as 15/05/2010.

I had 32 days paid leave, so the remaining days (from 11/05/2010 till 15/05/2010) was unpaid leave, as the system doesn't accept it as one leave, i have to break it into two parts (paid & un-paid leave). I have submitted copies of both, stapled together. Why did the ECO didn't go through all my documents?

last sentence from ECO:-

In light of the above, i am not satisfied that you are genuinely seeking entry to UK for the purpose and time period as stated by you. I therefore have refused your entry in accordance with paragraph 41 (i), (ii) & (vi) of the HC395.

I am very much disappointed, specially that i have never faced all of the above problems in past by submitting same documents, and being issued visa every year since 2006.

So please answer my above questions, and advise me to either to appeal or to re-apply (what's the best option).

Thanking in advance.

Regards.

[DrJPB]

I am being refused again, please help as i feel that ECO is playing with me.

see the continuation in the given link :-

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/Eco-Playing-Me-Help-t357589.html

Sorry, i am not allowed to post links, so i code wrapped it.

[DrJPB]

Im really sorry that you have been refused, but as 7by7 says it was you that failed to submit the correct paperwork. My wife was refused twice earlier this year in similar circumstances. It sucks i know how you feel.

Yeah, it really sucks, thanks for sharing my pain.

I wonder is it unreasonable considering the amount of money the application cost you that the ECO give you a quick call on the phone and ask that you forward the missing paperwork within say 7 days. If you do, then visa passed, if you dont then visa refused no questions asked. Surely that is better than just leaving you £200 out of pocket.

That's true, they charge high fees, & return can't they just ask by phone/fax/email/VFS to provide the missing doc.? They refused my 2 years application within 2 working days, that easy for them to say no even though i paid high fee.

Edited April 19, 2010 by DrJPB

[paully]

1. As an alternative, I have submitted (& being submitting since 2006, and never being refused visa) Affidavit (declare & acknowledge), issued from Pakistani Embassy Kuwait on the behalf of the urdu marriage certificate, & attested from Ministry of Foreign affairs Kuwait, declaring that she's my legal wife.

So is this not enough for ECO to accept as an alternative of Marriage Certificate?

2. Last refusal reason of ECO:-

I have noticed that you are on leave from 04/04/2010 to 10/05/2010. However the ticket submitted shows your return date as 15/05/2010.

I had 32 days paid leave, so the remaining days (from 11/05/2010 till 15/05/2010) was unpaid leave, as the system doesn't accept it as one leave, i have to break it into two parts (paid & un-paid leave). I have submitted copies of both, stapled together. Why did the ECO didn't go through all my documents?

1. If it was a properly drawn-up affidavit, it should have a copy of the the urdu marriage certificate attached as an exhibit and specifically confirm this in the affidavit itself. Is it clearly attached as an exhibit? Did you clearly explain this in the visa application?

2. Again, you need to highlight your evidence clearly in the application and refer to it. Don't just assume that the ECO will 'go through all my documents'. Make it clear and obvious.

[7by7]

Sorry, i am not allowed to post links, so i code wrapped it.

Click on the 6th icon above the text box when posting, this will let you post a link.

I have merged your two topics into one, with a new title, as they are both about the same thing.

It seems from what you have posted that you in the second application again neglected to enclose your marriage certificate. That it is in Urdu is no excuse; surly there must be some agency in Kuwait who can translate it.

However, you say that other documents have been acceptable in the past, and that you submitted these documents this time. Yet previously you have only mentioned a 'marriage certificate' in your posts.

You say "An email invitation from my Father-in-Law was submitted, in which my uncle clearly stated that i am allowed to stay the period of April & May with them." Father-in law or uncle?

What did you submit regarding your leave? A letter from your employer? If so, why didn't it say that you were being given extra, unpaid leave and state the date you were due back?

If your application was as inconsistent and self contradictory as your posts here, I am not surprised that your were refused.

You ask "So what else ECO is expecting me to show as accommodation availability proof?"

As the refusal notice says, "However you have failed to submit any details of the accommodation available." Details, like the address, how many rooms, who else is living there.

You can appeal, and if so you have to address the marriage certificate issue. Presumably the previous visas are in your passport, and so you can refer to those and say that previous ECOs (in Kuwait?) have accepted the documents you mention. I would also advise that you obtain an English translation of the certificate and submit that too.

You also need to provide the missing confirmation of exactly how long a period of leave your employer has given you and the missing details of the accommodation available to you and a letter of invitation from the person actually offering that accommodation.

[7by7]

Duplicate post deleted.

Please do not post a dupicate post; if you want to stress the urgency and maybe get more replies, simply say something like "This is urgent, any more replies?"

Thank you.

[DrJPB]

Duplicate post deleted.

Please do not post a dupicate post; if you want to stress the urgency and maybe get more replies, simply say something like "This is urgent, any more replies?"

Thank you.

@7by7: sorry, i didn't realised that my post was replied, so when i saw the reply, i quickly try to edit my post, but i see that the mod's here are more faster then user. Thanks.

BTW,

Thanks a lot 7x7 for quick reply.

1. As for the marriage certificate, i was just using the term as to keep it simple in my conversation. In all of my previous applications, i submitted the same document, and was issued visa. In my last visit to UK, i got my self a new passport, and the new passport doesn't have any UK visa on it yet, but along with my application & new passport, i also had submitted my old passport, which got all the previous visas on it. Also i have submitted Birth Certificate, issued in UK on 2006, showing name of both parents (my wife & ME), is this not another kind of proof as we are in a relationship?

I will try to search for a translation center from where i can translate it to English, will give it a try.

2. As for the accommodation, In the invitation email, my father-in-law (uncle), clearly stated his address where he's residing, and mentioned the period (between April & May). Where i can mention no. of rooms, persons living etc., in application form or my uncle have to mention in the invitation email? Please explain more on how to clear this point.

3. As for the Leave date, we are using an Oracle based HR application. Employee can request leave, during the request, system allow the user to select paid (in case of available leave balance), & unpaid (if no leave balance is available). So i applied the leave in two parts, one from 04/04/2010 till 10/05/2010, which is paid, and other from 11/05/2010 till 15/05/2010, unpaid. Unfortunately the system doesn't show the word paid/unpaid on any of the leave document, which we print from system. But i am sure that i have stapled both the page together, and if i am not forgetting, i even highlighted the dates on both the pages. What i feel here is the ECO is intentionally finding excuses for refusal.

Well that can be sorted out, i can just apply my next leave for 32 days, and show my flight reservation for the same no. of days.

But the main question here is, shall i apply again for visa, and ignore the appeal or shall i go for appeal?

If i re-apply, i might get the visa (providing all the requested documents), but then again i feel that ECO's design wasn't just.

But if i appeal, then i might be stuck for another 6 months. And i was planning my leave before June, so not to conflict with my colleagues.

Please advice me the best option, and how to full fill the requirements of the above 3 conditions, specially the 2nd condition regarding details on available accommodation . And one more thing, if i re-apply, shall i clarify current refusal points? like why the gap of leave and that i have submitted two leaves in my previous application, etc.?

Thanks again.

[7by7]

I don't understand how your father-in-law can also be your uncle. If it is simply a term of endearment you use when addressing him, don't use it in the application.

The person offering the accommodation is the one who should, in the invitation letter, provide the details of that accommodation. It will help if they also provide evidence, such as a mortgage statement, that they own the property or if they rent then a letter from their landlord granting you and your wife permission to stay there.

Whether to appeal or re-apply is up to you. An appeal will take longer, but is free (unless it goes to tribunal in the UK in which case you would be advised to employ a professional).

Whichever, you must address each point of the refusal.

[DrJPB]

@7by7: Thanks a lot for your time.

But i am still worried about the accomodation matter, my father-in-law is living in a house provided from concil, as he's disable. He's living in a 4 bedroom house, with his kids, one 22 and one 19 years old. So in this case one bedroom is available.

So in this case am i allowed to live in his house, if so then what kind of document/accomodation details required to satisfy ECO?

Thanks.

Edited April 20, 2010 by DrJPB

[paully]

So in this case am i allowed to live in his house, if so then what kind of document/accomodation details required to satisfy ECO?

Thanks.

Proof that it's his house, ie a copy of the council tenancy agreement.

A letter from him confirming that he's happy for you to stay there and that there is a spare bedroom for you to stay in.

But - is he your uncle or your father-in-law? You need to make this clear.

[DrJPB]

Thanks paully, so it's ok to live with my father-in-law's house which is rented from council, right?

Because i was worried when the ECO mentioned that "I refused your entry in accordance with paragraph 4.1 (i),(ii) & (vi) of the HC395."

4.1 (vi): will maintain and accommodate himself and any dependents adequately out of resources available to him without recourse to public funds or taking employment; or will, with any dependants, be maintained and accomodated adequately by relatives or friends.

does the above paragraph doesn't mean that i am not allowed to use public funds (council house is not a form of public help?), and what about the last part of the paragraph "be maintained and accomodated adequately by relatives"

If so then is there any thing else i have to prove to clear the above point (4.1 (vi))? other than council tenancy agreement copy. am i doing any mistake here?

Is it me who's not understanding the requirements or is it the ECO who has messed up my Family visit application with a general visit (tourist visa)??

Kindly help in all the above matters.

thanks again.

Edited April 20, 2010 by DrJPB

[DrJPB]

Please, i require serious help from serious members. I hope no one else suffer the way i am suffering now.

Just to clear some of the members, who are more interested in other issues, then to help me:-

In our culture, we call elder man as uncle in respect, specially when we have a relationship with him. We don't call him as Mr.,etc., it's just a custom.

I hope i haven't hurt anyone's feelings.

Thanks.

Edited April 20, 2010 by DrJPB

[paully]

I don't think that staying for a limited time in a relative's rented council house would amount to 'recourse to public funds' so you should be okay on that score. You should check the tenancy agreement just to see whether there is a prohibition on other people staying there without the landlord council's consent.

[sbk]

Post deleted, lets keep it civil thanks, people come to the visas forum for help. Lets keep that recourse open to people by not resorting to trollish posts. cheers

[DrJPB]

thanks paully, point taken.

thanks sbk, for the whip.

[7by7]

I don't think that staying for a limited time in a relative's rented council house would amount to 'recourse to public funds' so you should be okay on that score. You should check the tenancy agreement just to see whether there is a prohibition on other people staying there without the landlord council's consent.

Staying in a council house with a relative or friend would not be considered as 'recourse to public funds.'

However, DrJB, as I said to you earlier, your father in law should obtain a letter from his landlord saying it is OK for you and your wife to stay there and confirming that there is room for you.

Also, as I said earlier, do not refer to him as 'uncle' in the application, as this could easily confuse the ECO.

[DrJPB]

7by7:

Thanks for the key notes, i will keep your advice in mind.

Once again i thank all who tried to help me.

Best Regards.