Thai Society Cannot Be Changed With Just Discourse

[Redsunset]

Abhisit on TV justifying why he delayed so long and was so indecisive. In a nutshell, he said he had to listen to both sides - disperse the protester with violence, or wait it out and try and negotiate.

Of course he had to listen to both sides, but THE GUY GETS PAID TO MAKE THE HARD DECISION!

Abhisit has proven to me that he is a good "Second in Command." A good adviser, talker supporter, but a very lousy leader. I would NOT want him watching my back, except as the last debator on my high school debating team.

[animatic]

If you think America has a justice system that isn't corrupted by the wealth of the defendant I have two words for you: OJ Simpson.

If you can afford good lawyers in the US you won't see prison nearly as often as someone relying on a public defender.

Do you think that someone convicted of murder and sentenced to death in the US would walk free from court the same day? As happens in Thailand.

Note

OJ is IN prison right now.

He tried to write the book 'If I Did It'

It sold alright but the civil court gave all the profits to the victims families.

So he had much less cash and no goodwill when the hotel room invasion and kidnapping case hit the courts.

[Thai at Heart]

I remember reading a book about the possible impending doom of China because the structure wasn't set up to treat every man equally and rarely if ever could an individuals rights supercede the needs of the state. The stated point was that unless any governmental system and it's branches could be trusted by the overwhelming majority of the population (95%), they system was bound to fail.

In light of the comments about the system in Thailand being rotten to the core and largely self serving (in many ways like China), it would appear that either the system changes, or Thailand is already and will be in for some more very turbulent times.

[Neurath]

The issue of bridging the gap between the haves and have nots is merely wishful thinking. Even in stable democracies in the west there are still large gaps between rich and poor. If Asians believe that in the West there are no poor people they are living in denial. Canada and the USA are democratic countries but there are still large segments of the population who struggle. It is true that western people are able to make more money. Their minimum hourly wage often is more than the minimum daily wage of Thai people. However the cost of living in the west is much greater leaving these people still unable to meet their basic needs. It is possible to rent a small apartment in Bangkok for less than $100, as low as $50-60 in some places. In a western city you will find that rent is often $800 or more for a modest apartment. All other living costs are similarly inflated. This means that many Americans live without health care and other necessities.

Free democracy and a capitalist system is no guarantee that the poor will be any better off. Rich people exploit poor people to make more money for themselves. That is the nature of capitalism. Politicians exploit democracy to make more money for themselves, that is its nature. However when a new party wants to get into power they will make all sorts of promises to the poor to get their votes. You won't find any western democracy where the wealth is evenly distributed among the population. There will always be rich, there will always be poor and to think that a single election can change this is naive at best.

Sure, but you do have social democratic societies where there is tempering of inequity and a far more equitable distribution of social and economic opportunity. So whilst it's true that you won't find any Western Democracy where wealth and opportunity is evenly distributed you certainly will find some of them where it is more evenly distributed and that is surely a noble aspiration. I have seen and participated in elections where the result of the election has had concrete effects on such distribution - for better and for worse.

[Redsunset]

Through this red shirt protest, I've lost total confidence in Abhisit as a leader. He has failed to step up when times were tough. In the heat of the battle he went back into his cave and let Anupong and Suthep do all the talking. He is a coward.

Now he comes out to explain his behavior and indecisiveness. Total trash talking. He is a good talker but a coward under pressure.

Are there ANY decent non-corrupt leaders in this country???

[Redsunset]

I remember reading a book about the possible impending doom of China because the structure wasn't set up to treat every man equally and rarely if ever could an individuals rights supercede the needs of the state. The stated point was that unless any governmental system and it's branches could be trusted by the overwhelming majority of the population (95%), they system was bound to fail.

In light of the comments about the system in Thailand being rotten to the core and largely self serving (in many ways like China), it would appear that either the system changes, or Thailand is already and will be in for some more very turbulent times.

It's not so much the systems as it is the people...... are Thais - largely the poor in the northeast, corrupt, etc. - ready for real democracy? I am not sure anymore. Thailand is moving in the right direction, but greedy idiots like Thaksin and Chalerm make this country a horrible disgusting place to live.

[animatic]

FACE... face = pride

Which seems to be the root of all evil here.

Pride is one of the 7 deadly sins.

Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.

Bible

“Temper gets you into trouble. Pride keeps you there.”

Pride is a powerful narcotic, but it doesn't do much for the auto-immune system.

Stuart Stevens

When dealing with people, let us remember we are not dealing with creatures of logic.

We are dealing with creatures of emotion, creatures bustling with prejudices and motivated by pride and vanity.

Dale Carnegie

To know a man, observe how he wins his object, rather than how he loses it;

for when we fail our pride supports us; when we succeed, it betrays us.

Charles Caleb Coltoz

Pride is seldom delicate; it will please itself with very mean advantages.

Samuel Johnson

Pride gets no pleasure out of having something, only out of having more of it than the next man.

C. S. Lewis

“A proud man is always looking down on things and people;

and, of course, as long as you're looking down, you can't see something that's above you.”

Walter Winchell

“A soldier will fight long and hard for a bit of colored ribbon.”

Napoleon Bonaparte

“Once social change begins, it cannot be reversed.

You cannot uneducate the person who has learned to read.

You cannot humiliate the person who feels pride. Y

ou cannot oppress the people who are not afraid anymore.

We have seen the future, and the future is ours.”

C.S. Lewis quotes (British Scholar and Novelist. 1898-1963)

What the weak head with strongest bias rules, Is pride, the never-failing vice of fools.

Alexander Pope

In general, pride is at the bottom of all great mistakes.

John Ruskin

---------------------------------

And in reference to Thaksin:

The passions grafted on wounded pride are the most inveterate; they are green and vigorous in old age.

George Santayana

Edited April 24, 2010 by animatic

[Redsunset]

I will not support Abhisit as a leader. I would choose him only because the alternative is even more awful, not because he is a good choice per se.

[hammered]

Through this red shirt protest, I've lost total confidence in Abhisit as a leader. He has failed to step up when times were tough. In the heat of the battle he went back into his cave and let Anupong and Suthep do all the talking. He is a coward.

Now he comes out to explain his behavior and indecisiveness. Total trash talking. He is a good talker but a coward under pressure.

Are there ANY decent non-corrupt leaders in this country???

Would you want to be the man who ordered a slaughter.

Interestingly if you read today unmentionable one you will see a piece that the rally wasnt shut down because Abhisit didnt sign a clearance order which would have legally covered police etc in anything they did. Maybe in the final analysis he will get more credit. A lot of things arent sure now. If he had signed the clearance order who knows what may have happened as only he would have been in the frame for what transpired.

I am not trying to defend Abhisit but consideration needs to be made of all information.

[zorm999]

Thais are not brought up to engage in civil society, for the good reason that there is no civil society to engage in. There are no institutions that people actually believe in, except The One we don't talk about; the police, the army, the courts, the bureaucracy are all feudal institutions with their long-held customs of paying tribute and allegiance, and maintaining face at all costs.

Everybody in The System has so many hooks in their back, such a tangled web of alliances and allegiances, that they are paralysed from taking action. If you are not in The System, you simply don't count. Truly, The System is a fraud.

This is a battle between two elites who belong to that system; all the Red Shirt leaders are ex-parliamentarians and this is their fight, to try and get back the privileges they once enjoyed under Thaksin. It is emphatically not a people's revolution -- they are cannon fodder.

I have to agree. This whole thing is just a battle for power and influence. All this talk of democracy, equality, justice, etc is just a feeble justification for their methods to try to get back into power. It's a despicable tragedy that this handful of individuals see fit to destroy the whole country in their fight to regain or maintain power.

[Thai at Heart]

I remember reading a book about the possible impending doom of China because the structure wasn't set up to treat every man equally and rarely if ever could an individuals rights supercede the needs of the state. The stated point was that unless any governmental system and it's branches could be trusted by the overwhelming majority of the population (95%), they system was bound to fail.

In light of the comments about the system in Thailand being rotten to the core and largely self serving (in many ways like China), it would appear that either the system changes, or Thailand is already and will be in for some more very turbulent times.

It's not so much the systems as it is the people...... are Thais - largely the poor in the northeast, corrupt, etc. - ready for real democracy? I am not sure anymore. Thailand is moving in the right direction, but greedy idiots like Thaksin and Chalerm make this country a horrible disgusting place to live.

I am not solely talking about the political system.

From the pooyai ban to the highest echelons of every government entity corruption is everywhere here. I wouldn't worry so much about the fact that people take a couple of 100 baht to vote every which way. I am more concerned that my kids teacher takes money to give higher marks to the kids, or that the taxman negotiates under the table, or that the coppers take 100 baht for nothing, or that a hitman can be found for 500 baht, or that the land office can give away land on fake titles.

Every dealing you have in daily life with the law and government in this country is open to negotiation. The poor in Isaan are not the problem when it comes to corruption in Thailand.

I would rephrase your question and ask does the entire Thai society have the morality to run a democracy? Greedy idiots are not limited to Thaksin or Chalerm in Thailand.

[Neurath]

Through this red shirt protest, I've lost total confidence in Abhisit as a leader. He has failed to step up when times were tough. In the heat of the battle he went back into his cave and let Anupong and Suthep do all the talking. He is a coward.

Now he comes out to explain his behavior and indecisiveness. Total trash talking. He is a good talker but a coward under pressure.

Are there ANY decent non-corrupt leaders in this country???

Would you want to be the man who ordered a slaughter.

Interestingly if you read today unmentionable one you will see a piece that the rally wasnt shut down because Abhisit didnt sign a clearance order which would have legally covered police etc in anything they did. Maybe in the final analysis he will get more credit. A lot of things arent sure now. If he had signed the clearance order who knows what may have happened as only he would have been in the frame for what transpired.

I am not trying to defend Abhisit but consideration needs to be made of all information.

I'll have a go at trying to defend him.

Whatever side of the fence you would deign to sit on in the current crisis it cannot go unacknowledged that the crisis is a crisis of legitimacy.

It is impossible to use force to make people accept as legitimate that which they do not so recognize.

Issuing a clearance order would undoubtedly have lead to many, many casualties. It would not have made any difference to perceptions of governmental legitimacy from the Reds or their opposition and it's precisely and only a nominal agreement on legitimacy on the part of all actors that will plough a path out of this mess.

You can talk now or later, but in essence the only difference between doing so now rather than later is the number of bodies that lie dead betwixt.

That's all I got.

[danc]

I remember reading a book about the possible impending doom of China because the structure wasn't set up to treat every man equally and rarely if ever could an individuals rights supercede the needs of the state. The stated point was that unless any governmental system and it's branches could be trusted by the overwhelming majority of the population (95%), they system was bound to fail.

In light of the comments about the system in Thailand being rotten to the core and largely self serving (in many ways like China), it would appear that either the system changes, or Thailand is already and will be in for some more very turbulent times.

It's not so much the systems as it is the people...... are Thais - largely the poor in the northeast, corrupt, etc. - ready for real democracy? I am not sure anymore. Thailand is moving in the right direction, but greedy idiots like Thaksin and Chalerm make this country a horrible disgusting place to live.

I am not solely talking about the political system.

From the pooyai ban to the highest echelons of every government entity corruption is everywhere here. I wouldn't worry so much about the fact that people take a couple of 100 baht to vote every which way. I am more concerned that my kids teacher takes money to give higher marks to the kids, or that the taxman negotiates under the table, or that the coppers take 100 baht for nothing, or that a hitman can be found for 500 baht, or that the land office can give away land on fake titles.

Every dealing you have in daily life with the law and government in this country is open to negotiation. The poor in Isaan are not the problem when it comes to corruption in Thailand.

I would rephrase your question and ask does the entire Thai society have the morality to run a democracy? Greedy idiots are not limited to Thaksin or Chalerm in Thailand.

Good post!

A thought for you - An anecdotal story from a French Canadian documentary maker with whom I chat from time to time;-

The Chief of Mexico's police force, not divisional commander, the absolute head honcho was asked the direct question of how long it would take to wheedle out corruption from the force.

His reply was two generations not to wheedle it out, just to make a start.....

I would hazard a guess that there is a similarity between that force and the one here and we are only talking about a police force, not the army, not the politicians, just the police force.

Corruption, both political and moral is endemic in this society from top to bottom and therein lies the problem - Buddhism left town a good time back - but that is just an opinion.

[animatic]

I remember reading a book about the possible impending doom of China because the structure wasn't set up to treat every man equally and rarely if ever could an individuals rights supercede the needs of the state. The stated point was that unless any governmental system and it's branches could be trusted by the overwhelming majority of the population (95%), they system was bound to fail.

In light of the comments about the system in Thailand being rotten to the core and largely self serving (in many ways like China), it would appear that either the system changes, or Thailand is already and will be in for some more very turbulent times.

It's not so much the systems as it is the people...... are Thais - largely the poor in the northeast, corrupt, etc. - ready for real democracy? I am not sure anymore. Thailand is moving in the right direction, but greedy idiots like Thaksin and Chalerm make this country a horrible disgusting place to live.

I am not solely talking about the political system.

From the pooyai ban to the highest echelons of every government entity corruption is everywhere here. I wouldn't worry so much about the fact that people take a couple of 100 baht to vote every which way. I am more concerned that my kids teacher takes money to give higher marks to the kids, or that the taxman negotiates under the table, or that the coppers take 100 baht for nothing, or that a hitman can be found for 500 baht, or that the land office can give away land on fake titles.

Every dealing you have in daily life with the law and government in this country is open to negotiation. The poor in Isaan are not the problem when it comes to corruption in Thailand.

I would rephrase your question and ask does the entire Thai society have the morality to run a democracy? Greedy idiots are not limited to Thaksin or Chalerm in Thailand.

Good post!

A thought for you - An anecdotal story from a French Canadian documentary maker with whom I chat from time to time;-

The Chief of Mexico's police force, not divisional commander, the absolute head honcho was asked the direct question of how long it would take to wheedle out corruption from the force.

His reply was two generations not to wheedle it out, just to make a start.....

I would hazard a guess that there is a similarity between that force and the one here and we are only talking about a police force, not the army, not the politicians, just the police force.

Corruption, both political and moral is endemic in this society from top to bottom and therein lies the problem - Buddhism left town a good time back - but that is just an opinion.

This of course explains why the Police want Abhisit out,

since he has started off to be Generation One.

[brahmburgers]

You won't find a single country using democracy, capitalism or anything else where everyone is well off. It is my opinion that every country relies on having large number of poor people to function. Think about it, poor people will collect trash and do all the McJobs no one else wants because they don't have other options.

I agree to a large extent, and that's why there are so many Latinos in the USA, and so many Turks and north Africans in Europe. The equivalent in Thailand is the Burmese and Lao who come in to do menial jobs and, despite the issuance of pseudo-ID's by Thai authorities, are seriously preyed upon by crooked/sadistic/greedy cops & other authorities and sadistic bosses.

However, there are examples of countries which make it work rather well. Most of those countries are Scandinavian or their neighbors. No one country is perfect, but a basic ingredient in making it work is a sense of tolerance/appreciation for others. Also a sense of fairness. Perhaps it's a subtle distinction, but the Thai and Chinese-Thai management I've observed in 25 years visiting SE Asia are not fair with their employees. They're dead bent on taking advantage in every way - particularly with paying as low wages and demanding as long hours as possible. There's still a deeply rooted and widespread attitude in SE Asia of the 'haves' taking full advantage of 'the have nots.' To the degree this sicko trend is ameliorated, Thailand will move towards being a decent place for all its inhabitants. Granted that's just one of many societal problems, but it's no less important than a new Constitution, new politicians, real democracy, separation of religion/state/army factions, or the other challenges Thailand faces.

[danc]

Animatic wrote:-

This of course explains why the Police want Abhisit out,

since he has started off to be Generation One.

For some indeed! But I would venture he is only the twinkle in the eye of the parents of generation one, there is that far to go..

For others, he's was born in the trough and he has still proudly got his buttocks in the air!

That is of course politics!!!!!

Edited April 24, 2010 by danc

[chadintheusa]

You won't find a single country using democracy, capitalism or anything else where everyone is well off. It is my opinion that every country relies on having large number of poor people to function. Think about it, poor people will collect trash and do all the McJobs no one else wants because they don't have other options.

I agree to a large extent, and that's why there are so many Latinos in the USA, and so many Turks and north Africans in Europe. The equivalent in Thailand is the Burmese and Lao who come in to do menial jobs and, despite the issuance of pseudo-ID's by Thai authorities, are seriously preyed upon by crooked/sadistic/greedy cops & other authorities and sadistic bosses.

However, there are examples of countries which make it work rather well. Most of those countries are Scandinavian or their neighbors. No one country is perfect, but a basic ingredient in making it work is a sense of tolerance/appreciation for others. Also a sense of fairness. Perhaps it's a subtle distinction, but the Thai and Chinese-Thai management I've observed in 25 years visiting SE Asia are not fair with their employees. They're dead bent on taking advantage in every way - particularly with paying as low wages and demanding as long hours as possible. There's still a deeply rooted and widespread attitude in SE Asia of the 'haves' taking full advantage of 'the have nots.' To the degree this sicko trend is ameliorated, Thailand will move towards being a decent place for all its inhabitants. Granted that's just one of many societal problems, but it's no less important than a new Constitution, new politicians, real democracy, separation of religion/state/army factions, or the other challenges Thailand faces.

You won't find fairness in the west. The company I work for hired promoted a man to be the new president. First he bought himself a new Land Rover. Second he cut bonuses for all hourly employees. Third he laid off a third of the workforce. Management anywhere takes care of themselves and exploits their employees.

[noel2499rk]

If you think America has a justice system that isn't corrupted by the wealth of the defendant I have two words for you: OJ Simpson.

If you can afford good lawyers in the US you won't see prison nearly as often as someone relying on a public defender.

Do you think that someone convicted of murder and sentenced to death in the US would walk free from court the same day? As happens in Thailand.

The net result is the same. They have to work through the system there, here you can pay cash and be done with it. Just like it is easier to bribe the police for a traffic offense than it is to go and pay the ticket legally. Here money can go directly to government officials to get what you want, in the USA the lawyers get it. Doesn't make either system right.

It doesn't make either system perfect but it does make the US system a whole lot fairer than the Thai system. I hate to be defending the US system of justice because I"m not a fan of it at all but I know that if was facing trial I know which country I would rather be in and I think you do to.

[hammered]

Maybe comparing Thailand a fledgling democracy of 7 decades with the US or UK etc is a mistake. Apart form the differences in development and wealth all those places have had demcoracy a lot longer and it has not always been smooth. The US had a civil war and UK used troops to put down people for example.

In real terms how is Thailand doing as a 70 year old fledgling democracy? Assuming this passage is moved past with no more violence will that show more maturity? If there is more violence will that make Thailand any different from other countries democratic development in the past? Even with the best of wills Thailand is not going to become like any western democracy in ages even if it ever does.

[givenall]

Farang say Red shirts talk of "double standards"

There is no such thing as "double standards" in Thai culture, you have all been conned big time

LOSS OF FACE is the problem

If yellow shirts can do then we suffer loss of face if we can not do

If the Red shirts over throw the government by demonstrating in the streets, do you not understand, this become part of Thai history

So the next time someone is upset over some thing, Thai history shows whet to do

Protest kill and over throw Thai law and order

Thai will only see as "LOSS OF FACE" if he can not have same same

Time Farang face the truth

Governemt have proved to be weak

Protesting is mob rule and it work

Now Thai's look for a hero to give them back Peace

Peace to a Thai in non confrontation

who will be the Hero

Mr Super T has his hand up

Under certain conditions

What price is PEACE

forget about Democracy this is a Farang word and not part of Thai culture

One thing for sure, Thais and alike will never look at the Authorities like police and army the same way. They have lost their faces and no respect for them as before

Edited April 24, 2010 by givenall

[noel2499rk]

Maybe comparing Thailand a fledgling democracy of 7 decades with the US or UK etc is a mistake. Apart form the differences in development and wealth all those places have had demcoracy a lot longer and it has not always been smooth. The US had a civil war and UK used troops to put down people for example.

In real terms how is Thailand doing as a 70 year old fledgling democracy? Assuming this passage is moved past with no more violence will that show more maturity? If there is more violence will that make Thailand any different from other countries democratic development in the past? Even with the best of wills Thailand is not going to become like any western democracy in ages even if it ever does.

We can though compare Thailand to two other fledgling democracies Japan and South Korea both of whom have been democratic for less time than Thailand but have made far greater progress.

[brahmburgers]

You won't find a single country using democracy, capitalism or anything else where everyone is well off. It is my opinion that every country relies on having large number of poor people to function. Think about it, poor people will collect trash and do all the McJobs no one else wants because they don't have other options.

I agree to a large extent, and that's why there are so many Latinos in the USA, and so many Turks and north Africans in Europe. The equivalent in Thailand is the Burmese and Lao who come in to do menial jobs and, despite the issuance of pseudo-ID's by Thai authorities, are seriously preyed upon by crooked/sadistic/greedy cops & other authorities and sadistic bosses.

However, there are examples of countries which make it work rather well. Most of those countries are Scandinavian or their neighbors. No one country is perfect, but a basic ingredient in making it work is a sense of tolerance/appreciation for others. Also a sense of fairness. Perhaps it's a subtle distinction, but the Thai and Chinese-Thai management I've observed in 25 years visiting SE Asia are not fair with their employees. They're dead bent on taking advantage in every way - particularly with paying as low wages and demanding as long hours as possible. There's still a deeply rooted and widespread attitude in SE Asia of the 'haves' taking full advantage of 'the have nots.' To the degree this sicko trend is ameliorated, Thailand will move towards being a decent place for all its inhabitants. Granted that's just one of many societal problems, but it's no less important than a new Constitution, new politicians, real democracy, separation of religion/state/army factions, or the other challenges Thailand faces.

You won't find fairness in the west. The company I work for hired promoted a man to be the new president. First he bought himself a new Land Rover. Second he cut bonuses for all hourly employees. Third he laid off a third of the workforce. Management anywhere takes care of themselves and exploits their employees.

How about, 'you won't find perfection anywhere.' However, you are much more likely, on average, to find fairness (re; worker compensation / working conditions) in the west than in Asia. For starters, there are unions in the west - almost non-existent in the east. There a many small western companies that treat their employees quite well. In Asia that would be an anomaly. Again we're talking about general trends. Another thing you'll find more of in the west is venues to voice complaints - without fear of repercussions. In Asia, that's essentially non-existent. All in all, to be downtrodden within an Asian company is worse, on average, than being downtrodden in a western company. Over here, a worker can be paid 1 to 5 baht/hour and required to be on the job all his/her waking hours, 7 days a week - usually by Chinese-Thai employers. You'd be hard pressed to find such slave-like conditions in the States or Europe. I've met and spoke to many people in such situations - here in northern Thailand.

[noel2499rk]

You won't find a single country using democracy, capitalism or anything else where everyone is well off. It is my opinion that every country relies on having large number of poor people to function. Think about it, poor people will collect trash and do all the McJobs no one else wants because they don't have other options.

I agree to a large extent, and that's why there are so many Latinos in the USA, and so many Turks and north Africans in Europe. The equivalent in Thailand is the Burmese and Lao who come in to do menial jobs and, despite the issuance of pseudo-ID's by Thai authorities, are seriously preyed upon by crooked/sadistic/greedy cops & other authorities and sadistic bosses.

However, there are examples of countries which make it work rather well. Most of those countries are Scandinavian or their neighbors. No one country is perfect, but a basic ingredient in making it work is a sense of tolerance/appreciation for others. Also a sense of fairness. Perhaps it's a subtle distinction, but the Thai and Chinese-Thai management I've observed in 25 years visiting SE Asia are not fair with their employees. They're dead bent on taking advantage in every way - particularly with paying as low wages and demanding as long hours as possible. There's still a deeply rooted and widespread attitude in SE Asia of the 'haves' taking full advantage of 'the have nots.' To the degree this sicko trend is ameliorated, Thailand will move towards being a decent place for all its inhabitants. Granted that's just one of many societal problems, but it's no less important than a new Constitution, new politicians, real democracy, separation of religion/state/army factions, or the other challenges Thailand faces.

You won't find fairness in the west. The company I work for hired promoted a man to be the new president. First he bought himself a new Land Rover. Second he cut bonuses for all hourly employees. Third he laid off a third of the workforce. Management anywhere takes care of themselves and exploits their employees.

How about, 'you won't find perfection anywhere.' However, you are much more likely, on average, to find fairness (re; worker compensation / working conditions) in the west than in Asia. For starters, there are unions in the west - almost non-existent in the east. There a many small western companies that treat their employees quite well. In Asia that would be an anomaly. Again we're talking about general trends. Another thing you'll find more of in the west is venues to voice complaints - without fear of repercussions. In Asia, that's essentially non-existent. All in all, to be downtrodden within an Asian company is worse, on average, than being downtrodden in a western company. Over here, a worker can be paid 1 to 5 baht/hour and required to be on the job all his/her waking hours, 7 days a week - usually by Chinese-Thai employers. You'd be hard pressed to find such slave-like conditions in the States or Europe. I've met and spoke to many people in such situations - here in northern Thailand.

This idea of the haves taking advantage of the have nots was also ingrained in western countries until through the power of trade unions this idea was wrested from the haves using many strikes protests etc.

I've suggested many times to Thai red shirts I know that their movement would have far greater effectiveness if organised through trade unions, but the idea is so alien to them that they can't really get their heads around it, also I believe Thailand has some pretty draconian anti union laws.

On your point that this is a Asia issue I believe South Korea has some very strong trade unions.

[RickBradford]

The closest parallel I can think of is the English Civil War of the 1640s, where an established elite (the Cavaliers) was challenged by a new rural elite (the Roundheads) claiming to act in the name of democracy. By all accounts, it was an atrociously bloody and brutal business (as civil wars tend to be), even though they didn't have AK-47s and M79s.

In the end, the Roundheads won, and slaughtered most of their opponents (after some show trials). But everyone knew that it wasn't the end and there would be a backlash and that the people most associated with the first victory would be the ones most harshly dealt with by way of revenge. And so it proved, in very gory fashion.

I think this is why Anupong doesn't pull the trigger -- he knows that this isn't the end, whatever happens in the short term, and he doesn't want to be the one in the dock a few years from now trying to justify mass slaughter. Most of the rest of the government thinks in the same way, which they are all sitting around like farts in a trance.

[danc]

The closest parallel I can think of is the English Civil War of the 1640s, where an established elite (the Cavaliers) was challenged by a new rural elite (the Roundheads) claiming to act in the name of democracy. By all accounts, it was an atrociously bloody and brutal business (as civil wars tend to be), even though they didn't have AK-47s and M79s.

In the end, the Roundheads won, and slaughtered most of their opponents (after some show trials). But everyone knew that it wasn't the end and there would be a backlash and that the people most associated with the first victory would be the ones most harshly dealt with by way of revenge. And so it proved, in very gory fashion.

I think this is why Anupong doesn't pull the trigger -- he knows that this isn't the end, whatever happens in the short term, and he doesn't want to be the one in the dock a few years from now trying to justify mass slaughter. Most of the rest of the government thinks in the same way, which they are all sitting around like farts in a trance.

One of the the reasons I come to the forum - to learn and that is a new one on me...

farts in a trance

Wonderful, thank you

[hoilai]

Maybe comparing Thailand a fledgling democracy of 7 decades with the US or UK etc is a mistake. Apart form the differences in development and wealth all those places have had demcoracy a lot longer and it has not always been smooth. The US had a civil war and UK used troops to put down people for example.

In real terms how is Thailand doing as a 70 year old fledgling democracy? Assuming this passage is moved past with no more violence will that show more maturity? If there is more violence will that make Thailand any different from other countries democratic development in the past? Even with the best of wills Thailand is not going to become like any western democracy in ages even if it ever does.

We can though compare Thailand to two other fledgling democracies Japan and South Korea both of whom have been democratic for less time than Thailand but have made far greater progress.

this comparison of thai democracy with that of the japanese and korean democracies is an INSULT TO THAILAND.....!!!!!!!!!!!!

HOLY TOLEDO, how does anyone ever think of a such a comparison!!!

[soundman]

Posts of an inflamatory nature have been removed.

Please try to stay on topic.

[Skywalker69]

the basic problem here is no one wil put there name on anything for no one knows what will take place if a new opposition comes into power.

Imagine what will take palce IF, ( god , i hope not) Thaksin comes back and what he will do to all those that had anything to do with his loss of power.

Does the phrase, " moved to inactive post" sound familiar

Here today,,,,,gone tomorrow

If Thaksin comes back, there will be heads rolling, lots of heads. Let´s hope he stay away.

[Thailand]

I simply do not understand why the government, the reds, the yellows etc do not simply consult Thai Visa as most of the members seem to have an answer to the current and past problems of Thailand.

Simple solution?

[wintermute]

I simply do not understand why the government, the reds, the yellows etc do not simply consult Thai Visa as most of the members seem to have an answer to the current and past problems of Thailand.

Simple solution?

Yep, what they need to do is travel down to your local sukhumvit watering hole to meet with overweight tattooed up baldheaded sex tourist farangs to figure out what's wrong with this country. These oracles of truth will be able to divine the true nature of the problem right away like the seers of ancient Greece.