Thai Protesters Brace For Crackdown As Compromise Rejected

[ableguy]

Indeed it most disappointing.

Time for the British Government to step in and withdraw PM Abhisits........ British Passport.

bullshit

[featography]

If they discard their signature red t-shirts we might need a new name for them. Any suggestions?

"The protesters formerly known as Reds" perhaps.

"Mallrats"

They answered that themselves;

Red Hearts

[animatic]

A disappointing but unsurprising response from the biggest stubborn mule PM the world has ever seen.

No doubt were you PM you would always carry a white flag and BYOV - bring your own vaseline.

One of the jobs of a PM is to stand up to the self declared enemies of the state.

Your job as Thai PM is it to unite the people and not just declaring the opposition to enemies of the state. That is what dictators do.

A good PM is able to convince people from all sides that he is a capable man. Abhisit failed to do so. He thinks he can score points with suppression, ignorance, censorship, violent crackdowns and a smirk in the face.

..and you get everything you want every time you negotiate? I've spent 14 years in high-end corporate negotiation and had to utilise multiple factors to gain agreement. People see negotiation as a tug-of-war, yet it is really more like a graphic equaliser that you are trying to tune to create a rounded sound. You constantly have to tweak, and changing one frequency affects the response of another. If you never moved the bass from maximum you will never get rid of that awful buzzing noise.

My best analogies come after my 2nd cup of coffee....sorry still only halfway down cup 1.

The PM's job is to

administer the country,

set policy goals,

make sure those goals are being met, and fix things if they are not

set budget allocations and constraints,

deal with the bureaucracy and ride herd on them

work on things that come in day to day needing handling

and deal with international issues and leaders

represent the nation to the outside world.

Far down that list somewhere is to try to make a national consensus on all issues.

That never happens because 100% consensus is something that can't be done.

Nowhere is it written he should be expected to

'bend over and assume the position' for any minority special interest group.

[Maejo Man]

Quiz: Who said the following in a speech

There has been too much violence, too much pain.

None here are without sin.

But I have an honorable compromise.

Just walk away.

and I'll spare your lives.

Just walk away. I will give you safe passage

Just walk away and there will be an end to the horror.

Ermmmm - Wasn't it either Saladin after the siege of Jerusalem (Mae Jo Man might know the answer to that)

Quite possibly referring to the beheading of the muslim garrison after the battle at Acre, and during the siege of Jerusalem. Saladin was offering a face saving way out with a very similar speech.

Sorry (to mods and all) but it's impossible to ignore this one ....

It is not a "red crusader" and depending upon the intended depiction date, it may or may not be a Knight Templar - if Mae Jo Man has a large high quality version of his avatar, I will examine the arms and armour and tie it to which particular crusade (or interim) it dates from, unless it's just an artists mock up of popular concept, in which case it's likely highly inaccurate in multiple details, and undateable.

The red cross of St George on the shield and hauberk was the national identification of English knights of the first two crusades, and on some of them in the third crusade.

To attempt to link what is now the national symbol of England, and the centre of the United Kingdom's Union flag, with what is happening in central Bangkok is an insult to England, and the UK, in my opinion, and leads me to ask if your religious persuasion is linked to those the crusaders fought, or if you are simply inserting a large wooden spoon and rotating it? Simply associating by the colour is moronic - you might as well say that red apples (a fruit not commercially grown in Thailand) are symbolic of the UDD and Thai Rak Thai.

Sheesh.

[melbpete]

Of course if democracy were usurped in YOUR country, you would not only be inclined but in fact DUTY-bound to defend your nation against "all enemies, foreign and domestic." That's the wording in the United States, other countries are much the same in spirit. I find it painful to think what I would have to do if my country's democracy were taken from me, so it's not surprising you don't give it any thought.

But that's okay, consistent logic is the enemy of elite revanchists anywhere, I don't expect any different from (what remains of) the yellow-shirt crowd.

Can you please explain how it was "usurped"?

I've seen several detailed explanations of why the government is elected and legitimate.

But all I see from the opposite side is broad statements.

That's the way the reds work. Keep the statements broad. If they go into detail, it becomes easier to pick the holes in their lies.

The reds are out their protesting because they don't understand democracy.

They think they "won" the last election. They think that the Democrats shouldn't be in government because it's a coalition. They conveniently forget that is how the PPP got into government.

They think that Thaksin was the elected PM at the time of the coup. But they conveniently forget that HE dissolved parliament and called elections. They conveniently forget that he resigned days after the 2006 elections, and that the elections were invalidated (BEFORE THE COUP). They conveniently forget that he was a care-taker PM at the time of the coup and had not organised new elections in the time required.

The reds conveniently forget a lot of things if it doesn't suit their lies.

[ableguy]

Oh well, thank you to the Reds and Thaksin for destroying Thailand.

Abhisit will go down as the most educated Thai Prime Minister who (as often is the case with intelligent people) had no common sense whatsoever. He has already lost so why not just go for a good old British compromise where noone loses face. Where the buffalo smiley when you need it?

So what would you have him do.....give in to these thugs

This situation could be resolved by negotiating and compromise on all sides, the Reds have offered a compromise, the Army is telling Abhisit to negotiate the yellows are not happy with his handling of the situation, doing nothing is not an option for him. Trying to end it by force will leave a huge body count so is not an option, it has to be done by negotiation and fresh elections. He would not be giving in to anyone just trying to do the best for Thai people which, after all is his job.

So you would give in to the thugs?

[chadintheusa]

what happened to the PMs address on tv

[ableguy]

A disappointing but unsurprising response from the biggest stubborn mule PM the world has ever seen.

You must be drunk, it is the brave and right thing to do. One can not give in to mob rule at any time more so when it is very small minority the comprises the mob. You need a few lessons in common sense.

The mob, as you call it has become as such, because of the "stubborn and illegitimate" PM that sits behind armed guards and closed doors; a british-indoctrinated-pylon. One who is so puffed-up with himself that he believes that he can rule without the consent of the populace. I for one join in with the protesters, all the power to them. Anyone who seems to be against them, it is primarily because he/she is afraid that his/her little world will burst like a bubble; loss of money being a factor as well. YOU need to realize that many people around the world are tired of despotic/socialistic/satanic-capitalistic dogs of war and oppression are leading the way. That is coming to an end, one way or another.

You have been reading the little red book, pathetic!

[edandpranee]

The Red shirts of Thailand are nothng more than the Brown shirts of of Germany in the 30's. A groop of Thugs doing the dirty work of corrupt leaders.

[Hermanus]

Its the beginning of the end and that is unbelievable for this country.

Its a shame and unforgetetable. I am crying for the reds, yellow and black.

Its a absolute tribute to the King. He is an old man a cannot do anything anymore.

[globin]

A disappointing but unsurprising response from the biggest stubborn mule PM the world has ever seen.

Nope, that would be the other guy, Thaksin.

I concur. Thaksin is very stubborn. He could call this off tonight, but won't because he is desperate to return to Thailand at any cost.

Cheers, Rick

Thaksin wants/needs/yearns/craves to go in the annuls of history as the first president (for life) of the Republic of Thailand

[kenai]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"1st. 20m of 60m is not a majority" You wrote.

You are incorrect.

http://www.citypopulation.de/Thailand.html

2010, there were 22,334,000 in NE

There were 11,562,000 in the North.

That is nearly 34 million people.

FACT

WOW with logic like that you could be a RED leader... or I guess a PAD leader for that matter.. news flash... total population does not mean they all support any particular movement nor does it take into account that they are NOT all voting age...you really tried to twist that one hard huh?? Pretty safe to say that the longer this goes on the REDS among the normal everyday hard working folks are looking less and less like their savior.

I think the real point is 7 out of 10 Thai live and work outside of cities. Not all of this large majority support PTP or Red Shirts and not all those living in cities are anti. No one is trying to play with numbers here, it is a simple fact Thai has a large rural population that is lower class.

If they had majority support then why not hold a new election? ..Why the 2006 coup?... Why constitution change? etc etc.

Isn't it obvious?

Those in power pulling the strings liked democracy only until they felt the power begin to slip, then it was a scramble to slant the table.

[draftvader]

THAI GOVERNMENT NEEDS PUZZLE ASSISTANCE

"When the jigsaw puzzle has been complete, it will b easier for Govt to plan measures."

Can all people with prior experience with complex jigsaw puzzles please gather at government house so the government can select a specialist committee on Jigsaw Puzzles (but can somebody bring some scissors and some glue just in case).

Thailand - Hub of Jigsaw Puzzles?

[jayboy]

Of course if democracy were usurped in YOUR country, you would not only be inclined but in fact DUTY-bound to defend your nation against "all enemies, foreign and domestic." That's the wording in the United States, other countries are much the same in spirit. I find it painful to think what I would have to do if my country's democracy were taken from me, so it's not surprising you don't give it any thought.

But that's okay, consistent logic is the enemy of elite revanchists anywhere, I don't expect any different from (what remains of) the yellow-shirt crowd.

Can you please explain how it was "usurped"?

I've seen several detailed explanations of why the government is elected and legitimate.

But all I see from the opposite side is broad statements.

That's the way the reds work. Keep the statements broad. If they go into detail, it becomes easier to pick the holes in their lies.

The reds are out their protesting because they don't understand democracy.

They think they "won" the last election. They think that the Democrats shouldn't be in government because it's a coalition. They conveniently forget that is how the PPP got into government.

They think that Thaksin was the elected PM at the time of the coup. But they conveniently forget that HE dissolved parliament and called elections. They conveniently forget that he resigned days after the 2006 elections, and that the elections were invalidated (BEFORE THE COUP). They conveniently forget that he was a care-taker PM at the time of the coup and had not organised new elections in the time required.

The reds conveniently forget a lot of things if it doesn't suit their lies.

The Reds undoubtedly have a point about Abhisit never having faced the Thai people as PM in an election.David Cameron has proposed that any British PM who has not received such a national mandate must call an election within six months.Where I differ from the Reds is that I think Abhisit's offer of elections by year end was quite reasonable.I also agree that mobs should not be able to twist the arm of legitimate governments in this way, and Abhisit's government is certainly legitimate.But in response to all these little lectures on this forum about democratic form, it's important to remember that the Reds do have a very strong case which is valid even if one discounts altogether the appalling record of the elite sponsoring coups, court decisions,military interference and a rigged constitution.

[kenai]

The Red shirts of Thailand are nothng more than the Brown shirts of of Germany in the 30's. A groop of Thugs doing the dirty work of corrupt leaders.

hel_l of a way to spend a first post. The corruption is on all sides, this is Thailand we are talking about. The same goes for the thugs, where were you a few years ago when the PAD were making news? Maybe think about it for a few more years and see if you can come up with anything else to share.

[SanSaiExPat]

Not sure if this was posted here or not!! If yes, my apologies!

Thai crisis shows perils of military constitution: Suu Kyi

Thailand's political crisis shows that a constitution drawn up by the military can never deliver stability, Myanmar opposition leader Aung San Suu Kyi said Saturday, according to her party.

Myanmar's military junta, which has ruled for nearly half a century, produced a new constitution as part of a "road map to democracy" which includes elections due to be held later this year.

The election plans have been widely criticised and subject to a boycott by Suu Kyi's party, the National League for Democracy (NLD), which would have had to expel its leader if it wanted to take part.

NLD spokesman Nyan Win said that in a meeting Saturday with Suu Kyi, she discussed the situation in Thailand, which has been wracked by crises since a 2006 coup ejected Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

"A new government coming to power under a constitution drawn up by the military will never be stable," he cited her as saying.

"We do not need to see very far. We just see Thailand," she said. "Thaksin was an elected person. The military seized the power from an elected person. The constitution was drawn up by the military," she said.

"After that, what happened with the first (government)? It was not stable," she said of the short-lived administration that followed the coup.

"This was a result of the constitution being written by the military."

Nyan Win said Suu Kyi was not giving an opinion on the rights and wrongs of the conflict in Thailand, where red-shirted campaigners largely loyal to Thaksin are calling for the ouster of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva.

Abhisit's army-backed administration was appointed in a parliamentary vote after a court ruling ousted Thaksin's allies.

The Reds are also calling for the restoration of a 1997 pro-democracy constitution which preceded the rise to power of Thaksin, who is now living in exile to avoid a jail sentence for corruption.

http://news.malaysia.msn.com/regional/arti...umentid=4050554

The reason that the government that followed the coup was unstable (it was the PPP) is that it violated the constitution, it committed electoral fraud and had conflicts of interest. Under any constitution those governments should have failed. It was not a result of the constitution, but the actions of the PPP that doomed it. Likewise if the democrats are disbanded it will be due to financial irregularities, and not due to the constitution. If any of the parties could follow the electoral rules we wouldn't be in this mess.

You sir are exactly correct. It's nice to see someone posting here who remembers history and knows the facts.

[animatic]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"1st. 20m of 60m is not a majority" You wrote.

You are incorrect.

http://www.citypopulation.de/Thailand.html

2010, there were 22,334,000 in NE

There were 11,562,000 in the North.

That is nearly 34 million people.

FACT

WOW with logic like that you could be a RED leader... or I guess a PAD leader for that matter.. news flash... total population does not mean they all support any particular movement nor does it take into account that they are NOT all voting age...you really tried to twist that one hard huh?? Pretty safe to say that the longer this goes on the REDS among the normal everyday hard working folks are looking less and less like their savior.

I love that opening line

""1st. 20m of 60m is not a majority" You wrote.

You are incorrect."

What part of; 'a majority is 50% or more', does this poster not understand.

No most certainly and without a doubt YOU are incorrect.

30 million +1 is a slim majority of 60 million.

But also as pointed out children don't count, only voters.

Using UN/Unicef's numbers

67,386,000 Total 2008 population

18,007,000 total under 18 population 26.7% are children

so take your 34 miilion and remove 9,078,000 or 26.7%

so then you have 24,922,000 voters + or -

So at BEST 36% of the nation if EVERY voter in Issan AND the north voted,

AND if EVERY voter in there also voted exclusively red,

which is not the case.

Which leaves 64% of the country NOT voting for the Red.

But then remove the children from that group

and the numbers come up about what we see in the polls.

And so the main difference is the relative strength of vote buying efforts,

and control of information flow / indoctrination, up in Issan by The Thaksin Machine.

[animatic]

Of course if democracy were usurped in YOUR country, you would not only be inclined but in fact DUTY-bound to defend your nation against "all enemies, foreign and domestic." That's the wording in the United States, other countries are much the same in spirit. I find it painful to think what I would have to do if my country's democracy were taken from me, so it's not surprising you don't give it any thought.

But that's okay, consistent logic is the enemy of elite revanchists anywhere, I don't expect any different from (what remains of) the yellow-shirt crowd.

Can you please explain how it was "usurped"?

I've seen several detailed explanations of why the government is elected and legitimate.

But all I see from the opposite side is broad statements.

That's the way the reds work. Keep the statements broad. If they go into detail, it becomes easier to pick the holes in their lies.

The reds are out their protesting because they don't understand democracy.

They think they "won" the last election. They think that the Democrats shouldn't be in government because it's a coalition. They conveniently forget that is how the PPP got into government.

They think that Thaksin was the elected PM at the time of the coup. But they conveniently forget that HE dissolved parliament and called elections. They conveniently forget that he resigned days after the 2006 elections, and that the elections were invalidated (BEFORE THE COUP). They conveniently forget that he was a care-taker PM at the time of the coup and had not organised new elections in the time required.

The reds conveniently forget a lot of things if it doesn't suit their lies.

The Reds undoubtedly have a point about Abhisit never having faced the Thai people as PM in an election.David Cameron has proposed that any British PM who has not received such a national mandate must call an election within six months.Where I differ from the Reds is that I think Abhisit's offer of elections by year end was quite reasonable.I also agree that mobs should not be able to twist the arm of legitimate governments in this way, and Abhisit's government is certainly legitimate.But in response to all these little lectures on this forum about democratic form, it's important to remember that the Reds do have a very strong case which is valid even if one discounts altogether the appalling record of the elite sponsoring coups, court decisions,military interference and a rigged constitution.

Somchai, and Samak never faced the voters as PMs either,

the ONLY one to do that was Thaksin...twice and even then he was technically

Caretaker PM the 2nd time because HE had dissolved the parliament.

Edited April 25, 2010 by animatic

[melbpete]

I think the real point is 7 out of 10 Thai live and work outside of cities. Not all of this large majority support PTP or Red Shirts and not all those living in cities are anti. No one is trying to play with numbers here, it is a simple fact Thai has a large rural population that is lower class.

If they had majority support then why not hold a new election? ..Why the 2006 coup?... Why constitution change? etc etc.

Isn't it obvious?

Those in power pulling the strings liked democracy only until they felt the power begin to slip, then it was a scramble to slant the table.

Governments shouldn't need to call elections every time a minority mob of thugs comes out on the streets. At the moment the government have majority support of all elected MPs, so they don't need to call elections until next scheduled in Dec 2011.

The 2006 coup happened mainly because Thaksin controlled all the checks and balances required in a democracy, by putting his family and friends in all the high positions. The one thing he didn't control was the army, but not through lack of trying.

The constitution changes were generally aimed at reducing the power of the PM, and reducing the corruption in elections. And ofcourse to keep the coup generals out of jail.

Thaksin showed that loopholes in the 1997 constitution allowed HIM to control too much. More than a leader of any democratic country should control.

[Jonathanpattaya]

A disappointing but unsurprising response from the biggest stubborn mule PM the world has ever seen.

Is he?

[tkoenig]

I seem to remember an American Hero named Paul Revere who became famous for his courage in the face of horrifying situations. I believe he is also most well known for his famous early warning system during the AMerican Civil War when he would ride through towns on his horse crying "The RED COAT's are coming, the RED COAT's are coming!"

Wiki RED

The word red comes from the Old English rēad.[5] Further back, the word can be traced to the Proto-Germanic rauthaz and the Proto-Indo European root reudh-. In Sanskrit, the word rudhira means. In the English language, the word red is associated with the color of blood, certain flowers (e.g. roses), and ripe fruits (e.g. apples, cherries). Fire is also strongly connected, as is the sun and the sky at sunset. Healthy light-skinned people are sometimes said to have a "ruddy" complexion (as opposed to appearing pale). After the rise of socialism in the mid-19th century, red was to describe revolutionary movements.[6]

[vicco]

Will this whole episode go down in history as the War of the shirts?

We are divided into two camps here...pro-red and anti-red both accusing the other of lies, violence and being unwilling to bend.

The level of nastiness is difficult to understand....this is not our fight, we are just observers and always will be.

There has been some movement from both the reds and the government.....not much, but some...so bending has already taken place.

If they have already moved on their original positions, they can/may move some more.....a settlement is always possible.

Neither side can be seen to back down too easily...posturing, threats and brinkmanship are often part of negotiations....even with trade unions in the West.

Nobody can win this stand off. If the government/army proceed with their big "crackdown" and a lot of people die they will have won nothing...they will just

raise the level of hatred felt in rural Thailand towards them and set up the next march on Bankok and possibly even a nation wide uprising which would be far

more difficult to deal with than a small contained area in BKK.

No matter what happens in the short term, the fundamental injustices that exist in this country, which should be obvious to any reasonable person will still exist until these two sides can come to some kind of negotiated agreement, and a government elected in a fair and transparent election takes control.

It's petty clear that the current government and powerful elements in the army and police are not singing from the same song sheet.

It seems pretty clear that the army has no desire to bring down the reds with a full scale attack---for obvious reasons--these people in red shirts are their relatives for starters.

There can be a win win scored here. Abhisit can win by coming back to the table and offering another compromise. He has already established a record of trying to be patient

and non-violent for a long period of time up until the first "crackdown" which ended badly for everyone. Actually there was no violence at all up until that point. If he can pull of a settlement now he can be a hero, a peacemaker. Even the reds might say nice things about him on the stage...maybe invite him over to sing a song or two....really impress the boys back at Oxford...

The reds may well accept another attempt at compromise. They must be pretty worn down by now. They can win too...because they would achieve the goal of dissolution of parliment---not on the original timetable, but who cares now...they fought the good fight and they can claim a victory too. Win win...open up the malls and get back to business...and it wont be long before they have to start getting ready for the next rice planting, so time is of the essence.

Whatever happens after that is going to create some interesting debate here on TV....but that's for another day.

[kentucky]

what happened to the PMs address on tv

it's going on now

[jayboy]

Somchai, and Samak never faced the voters as PMs either,

Agreed and they too following the David Cameron rule should have been compelled to face the voters within the six months limit.

[thisismysong]

"We are ready to handle the government measures. No matter what shirt we wear, our hearts are red," said Jatuporn Prompan, warning that an offensive would trigger nationwide conflict.

"When the first blood is spilled here, the entire country will be the scene of bloodshed," he said.

If this is not a quote from a Terrorist, I don't know what is.

[chadintheusa]

People who do not live in Thailand may have a hard time understanding what is happening here. In my time in Thailand I have observed that Thai people do not accept personal responsibility for making mistakes. Whether it is related to the concept of losing face or not is debatable. Thai people do not face confrontation head on like we might in the western world. Instead they shift the blame or make excuses. When caught red handed launching grenades the reds will never own up to it. They will blame someone else, or claim they were doing it for noble purposes, or deny it happened at all. That's the way it goes here.

[melbpete]

The Reds undoubtedly have a point about Abhisit never having faced the Thai people as PM in an election.David Cameron has proposed that any British PM who has not received such a national mandate must call an election within six months.Where I differ from the Reds is that I think Abhisit's offer of elections by year end was quite reasonable.I also agree that mobs should not be able to twist the arm of legitimate governments in this way, and Abhisit's government is certainly legitimate.But in response to all these little lectures on this forum about democratic form, it's important to remember that the Reds do have a very strong case which is valid even if one discounts altogether the appalling record of the elite sponsoring coups, court decisions,military interference and a rigged constitution.

What is the relevance of "The Reds undoubtedly have a point about Abhisit never having faced the Thai people as PM in an election."?

I just don't know what to say. That's just a stupid argument.

Abhisit went to the last election as the leader of the Democrats. So he was in the same position as Samak. And where was that argument from the reds when Somchai was elected PM?

"David Cameron has proposed that any British PM who has not received such a national mandate must call an election within six months."

PROPOSED? MUST? How do you have that in the same sentence?

The reality is that any MP that is elected can also be elected PM. In Australia and UK (both similar systems to Thailand) there are PM handover's (and Premiers in the Aus states) all the time halfway through an elected term.

It keeps coming back to the reds not understanding democracy. They just think that they are popular, so they should be in government.

[elcent]

what happened to the PMs address on tv

it's going on now

they are doing better than expected, right now and live ...

[Beardog]

It's looking like Kent State all over again.......1970 riot over a US planned Cambodia invasion when upset students looted, threw rocks and bottles, and otherwise taunted the police and military for a few days.

Result - 4 dead and one paralyzed for life as national guard fired rounds over a few seconds. The riot ended, but marred the country for quite some time.

If this event can be etched in the memory of nearly all Americans after 40 years, imagine what the latest incidents (and incidents yet to come) will do to the small country of Thailand.

As I remember Kent state the heat went beserk & started mowing people down. I did have a devastating effect on the way people in the U.S. viewed the heat. Oranges & Apples here, No one at Kent state were toting around grenade launchers m-16's & other barbaric bamboo weapons & such. Nor did the students try to topple the government or incite terrorist traits.

Bad analagy Oranges & Apples

[pimay11]

I seem to remember an American Hero named Paul Revere who became famous for his courage in the face of horrifying situations. I believe he is also most well known for his famous early warning system during the AMerican Civil War when he would ride through towns on his horse crying "The RED COAT's are coming, the RED COAT's are coming!"

Wiki RED

The word red comes from the Old English rēad.[5] Further back, the word can be traced to the Proto-Germanic rauthaz and the Proto-Indo European root reudh-. In Sanskrit, the word rudhira means. In the English language, the word red is associated with the color of blood, certain flowers (e.g. roses), and ripe fruits (e.g. apples, cherries). Fire is also strongly connected, as is the sun and the sky at sunset. Healthy light-skinned people are sometimes said to have a "ruddy" complexion (as opposed to appearing pale). After the rise of socialism in the mid-19th century, red was to describe revolutionary movements.[6]

Nice post. But it was the American Revolutionary War.