Thai Protesters Brace For Crackdown As Compromise Rejected

[jcbangkok]

The Rajaprarop from Petchburi to Indra hotel became one large parking lot.

But one thing is funny about the re-enforcements - if this is a peasant movement asking for more just wealth distribution, why are there many higher class cars among those that are coming protesting, like Mercedes Benz, BMW? You surely aren't a poor farmer if you can afford one of them...

Sorry for the long post. Now let me get my fireman's suit to prepare for all your flaming.

-------

So, you have some Mercedes cars and BM's parked by people joining .... can believe that, every mafia boss drives them and since this is the biggest gathering of criminals of all times, I'm not surprised they are there to see if they can make some money ... you must be a Thai and of course a red

I am not a Thai and I am not red. Said that I am surely not yellow either. I just reported the situation from this area as it looks like in the nights. As I went to the balcony to see a procession of the honk maniacs outside last night I spotted quite a high number of higher class sedans among the more typical pickups and motorbikes and thought I'd share that as it struck me as strange given what we were told that his rally was about.

This movement is a social revolt against an established order , basically a way for people to say that they are fed up with the establishment and want to be heard . I think K Anand said something similar . It cuts across social classes it would seem from what i hear . It is not a political movement per se , the reds have not voiced anything resembling a political platform . Just a way for people to say a change is needed , we have had enough and meanwhile lets party and kermess in the streets , much like May 68 in France . Of course some leaders with a personal agenda on their own , are taking advantage of it . I think repression by force would be a disaster for Thailand . Just a personal opinion however

I have to disagree with your personal opinion but we can agree to disagree. This rally started immediately after the courts ruled to sieze Mr. T's billions. The reds demands were to dissolve the lower house immediately and call for new elections. The PM tried to negotiate a settlement and offered an election of one year earlier than scheduled. If the reds adgenda was as you say they would have at least offered to consider this and get back with the PM. But surely you can see this was not their mandate. Now that things have gotten out of hand they have tried to convince the mob and everyone else it is a social revolt. They are in way over their heads and they know it. All the leaders stand to spend a lot of years in the Bangkok Hilton. Now they say they will fight to the death. I suppose to them death is a better option than going to prison. Consider this. Why would anyone be willing to die because an election cannot be held in 60 days or 90 days? They are so transparent.

Remember that the PM offered 9-months right out the gate without negotiating on time frame. The red leader then (smartly) said they would consider 3-months but then after receiving a text went back to 15 days and has since continues to REFUSE to negotiate. (Give us what we want before we talk is not negotiating). Bottom line is the red leaders has a change to gain credibility and walk away with a huge victory but they got caught by surprise at how understanding the PM was to their claimed desires. But clearly the red leaders are no the leaders and this is nothing to do with politics, fairness or the poor of the country except to use them as pawns and sacrificial lambs. The reds have done everything they can to provoke the gov't into violence .. this is their immediate goal and are praying for a slaughter of those they claim to be leading.

[pornsasi]

The Rajaprarop from Petchburi to Indra hotel became one large parking lot.

But one thing is funny about the re-enforcements - if this is a peasant movement asking for more just wealth distribution, why are there many higher class cars among those that are coming protesting, like Mercedes Benz, BMW? You surely aren't a poor farmer if you can afford one of them...

Sorry for the long post. Now let me get my fireman's suit to prepare for all your flaming.

-------

So, you have some Mercedes cars and BM's parked by people joining .... can believe that, every mafia boss drives them and since this is the biggest gathering of criminals of all times, I'm not surprised they are there to see if they can make some money ... you must be a Thai and of course a red

I am not a Thai and I am not red. Said that I am surely not yellow either. I just reported the situation from this area as it looks like in the nights. As I went to the balcony to see a procession of the honk maniacs outside last night I spotted quite a high number of higher class sedans among the more typical pickups and motorbikes and thought I'd share that as it struck me as strange given what we were told that his rally was about.

This movement is a social revolt against an established order , basically a way for people to say that they are fed up with the establishment and want to be heard . I think K Anand said something similar . It cuts across social classes it would seem from what i hear . It is not a political movement per se , the reds have not voiced anything resembling a political platform . Just a way for people to say a change is needed , we have had enough and meanwhile lets party and kermess in the streets , much like May 68 in France . Of course some leaders with a personal agenda on their own , are taking advantage of it . I think repression by force would be a disaster for Thailand . Just a personal opinion however

I have to disagree with your personal opinion but we can agree to disagree. This rally started immediately after the courts ruled to sieze Mr. T's billions. The reds demands were to dissolve the lower house immediately and call for new elections. The PM tried to negotiate a settlement and offered an election of one year earlier than scheduled. If the reds adgenda was as you say they would have at least offered to consider this and get back with the PM. But surely you can see this was not their mandate. Now that things have gotten out of hand they have tried to convince the mob and everyone else it is a social revolt. They are in way over their heads and they know it. All the leaders stand to spend a lot of years in the Bangkok Hilton. Now they say they will fight to the death. I suppose to them death is a better option than going to prison. Consider this. Why would anyone be willing to die because an election cannot be held in 60 days or 90 days? They are so transparent.

It started as a pro Thaksin movement , agree that was the catalyst , but it seems to me as if it has already gone far beyond that , in particular from pro Thaksin it has switched to anti governement and established order which the dems symbolize . Do you really think that were Thaksin to die tomorrow of cancer , the protest would stop ? I dont think so . Now there is a lot of face saving involved . The reds counter proposed , Abhisit refused . Perhaps somewhere ,sometimes they will finally reach a compromised agreement . Dunno . And then another issue is Abhisit proposing 9 months , and reds leaving the protest , tell me how can one be sure that Abhisit will respect his word , let alone still be the PM in 9 months . Abhisit is not even really in charge NOW let alone in 9 months .

Edit : Typo

Edited April 25, 2010 by pornsasi

[jdinasia]

Not exactly, sounds more like you believe what the Reds are saying.

I live inside the Red encampment. I pass through their tire-and-bamboo barriers at least twice a day, coming and going from home. I sleep one block away from the main stage at Rajprasong.

The numbers have been decreasing every day, just as reported by every Thai TV news channel or newspaper not owned by Thaksin or PT. During the day there are not even a thousand. The peak numbers occur nightly between 11pm and 3am when hundreds of Bangkok residents who support the Reds, come in on a part-time basis. A Thai friend who is reporting for the international press every night there has spoken to quite a number who are 'rented' from the Klong Toey slums.

There is nowhere near as many Reds in the area as there were 10 days ago, maybe 10% as many. No evidence of people coming from the provinces anymore in any numbers, rather the opposite, many fleeing back to the countryside as it becomes more clear that the Red leaders have no plan forward that won't involve violence.

Your information matches not only what is reported by the press (including the international press) but also what photographic evidence shows.

The red rally there is certainly far smaller than it has been and the numbers appear to be shrinking daily (but with the Lumpini park site the numbers may in fact be fairly static).

[Neurath]

Again --- claims of massive increase in numbers of the reds are 100% NOT backed up with any evidence. Just the statements from people that support the red cause (return of Thaksin?)

The numbers aren't supported by pictures or even by the claims of the reds ... just by some reds on this forum.

http://58.97.5.29/court.html

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Who cares? Fact is there is a massive media censorship and manipulation going on. Do you care?

Lot of reports from the international media get quickly dismissed at this board. Many TVF members choose to believe only the things what fits their system of beliefs.

When a governement in any democratic country start to block medias (TV , radios, papers) and internet sites it usualy signals the beginning of the end for that government

dam_n, there goes the Australian Government then!

[Skywalker69]

The Abhisit/Anupong address on t/v today (even when the signal was interrupted briefly ) was the most united I've ever seen those two guys. Despite the press painting them always at odds, it was a pretty darned good interview, and covered a LOT of good points in explaining to the public at large just what is going on, and WHY Abhisit can't/won't bow to the 'demands' of a few to the detriment of the many.

I totally concur with this premise; the way forward cannot be for the sake of the minority or thru the 'gun-boat-diplomacy' the red-rabble is using to hold hostage the commercial district of Bangkok.

I find it admirable, Abhisit acknowledges that a Lower House dissolution is, in all probability, a positive way forward for the country as a whole. BTW: he has have EVERY right to stick to his party's mandate via the constitution in place now to be PM until his term is up late 2011. That's the next scheduled elections for MP's.

Dissolving the Lower House to call for 'snap elections' at this point in time would benefit no one but the radical redz. In fact it would hurt MP's who ran, won, and voted for the PM of their choice, by forcing them to run again for no reason. Don't forget the Demz need to pass the 2010 country's budget, be in power for the hand off of the Military when Anupong is forced to retire, not to mention the amendments to the charter (constitution) which must be made BEFORE a dissolution, and elections, or the elections will be no better than last time.

Whine all you want but Abhisit is the rightful PM under this constitution, just like Samak & Somchai were (and who ALSO got to be PM via a coalition of parties too, as they didn't hold a majority of MP seats!!). That the Demz were able to garner a coalition of MP's to give them the majority and there by the mandate to run the government is totally and completely in line with how the constitution reads.

Don't forget when Newin Chidchob and his 'friends of Newin' group of nearly 40 MP's defected to the Demz side, Thaksin came out and called him 'traitor to the people'. Hmm, sounds like sour grapes to me. Although FWIW I trust Newin Chidchob, his Bhum-Jai-Thai party and the "Friends of Newin Group" of MP's about as far as I can throw them.

The redz are fast losing steam in their "rally for the good of the people", which is actually a rally for a minority of people who are upset their party can't get a majority of MP seats in the lower house and get to run the government. Let's get it straight, first during negotiations with the government their "demand' was dissolve the Lower House in 15 days, then after April 10th, their 'demand(s)' morphed into immediatly disolve the Lower House AND for Abhisit to leave the country. Now they've back pedaled into their newest 'demand' of a 30 day dissolution, and not a mention of Abhisit needing to leave the country. It is all too apparent the red-rabble's credibility as well as their wellmeaning supporters are growing less and less every day; I think it's a matter of time until the Military just disperses the 2000 or so who are hiding in the shade during the heat of the day.

In re-conning the protest site nearly every other day at various times, I fould the crowds are at their absolute lowest between about 1:30 and 3:30PM every day. The number swells in the evening when people are off work and when it is cooler than sitting on the scorching pavement under piss poor shade cloth. Given this country relies on the Armed Services, unlike the US, who uses the National Guard for crowd dispersal when they get out of hand, a night time dispersal will be both difficult to coordinate and control.

For the record I am PRO-DEMOCRACY. I am not a red, yellow, green, dark blue, or sky-blue-pink shirt; although I share some of each factions ideology in the way forward for the country. As the constitution currently in effect is written; the people in power now have 100% of the right to be there.

Don't like it?

Lobby your MP's to change the constitution.

Don't like who your elected MP voted for as PM?

Next time think about who you're voting for and what they will do for you before selling your vote or voting as the Nai or Puu-yai-ban of your village dictated.

Thai democracy, Google it, it's a hoot to read. ..

Good post, thanks!

[multistar28]

Will Bangkok become like the south where killings go on everday and the authorites can never ever catch the culprits ?????

Looks like it will become one really soon if Mr Half Past Sit orders a crack down

And every tourists will stay very far far away from Thailand from that day

Edited April 25, 2010 by multistar28

[TheItaliann]

Its not a surprise Red numbers are dwindling. Nothing is happening. Central World has been closed indefinitely. Its turned into the PAD occupation of the Government House (just let them live there). There will need to be conflict for people to get interested again. At this rate, Central World could be closed in July. It doesn't change the fact that the Reds can have 50,000 protesters in Bangkok in 24 hours if needed. Anupong might say one thing but it is 100% obvious he has no intention of removing protesters from Central World.

Edited April 25, 2010 by TheItaliann

[kentucky]

http://58.97.5.29/court.html

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Just what is that website?

Edited April 25, 2010 by kentucky

[pornsasi]

Abhisit was legally elected under Thai law, so why should he dissolve the house just to please a minority of the population. The Reds are mercenaries and this is nothing to do with democracy, but all to do with Thaksin.

Cheers, Rick

The Thai constitution and Abhisit's government were created by anti-democratic coup plotters.

And that consitution was, for the first time in Thai history, voted for by the people. I'm sure the reds voted NO, but they were outnumbered. And the longer that red nonsense continues, the more they loose supporters, because the first to suffer if the country goes down are the poor, means the reds themselves. Usually Taxi drivers are pro Taksin. How many Taxis do you see with red flags or red stickers on them? Much less than we would usually expect. Today is the first day my neighbour starts working again, instead of going to collect money at Rajprasong. The reds start to loose the battle and Abhisit and the army have done well, waiting.

Some insight for you on how the 2007 constitution came to pass

Referendum on 2007 constitution

Media used included all television, cable and radio stations, websites, print media outlets, government agencies, education institutions, billboards and places where crowds gather. All state-run schools and universities were involved in the campaign. Spots were aired from 6 am until 10 pm with the message "Approve: New Constitution, close to the people"

The junta then agreed to a debate regarding the draft, but refused to air the debate on television, because it would create confusion among the public.[43] A debate was later aired on Nation Channel, a subscription-only cable channel, rather than on one of the government-owned free-to-air channels.

In late July, General Sonthi said that if the draft constitution failed the referendum, the junta would modify the 1997 Constitution for permanent use.

The junta passed a law that made criticism of the draft and opposition to the constitutional referendum a criminal act. Political parties were not allowed to persuade voters to cast ballots in favour or not in favour of the constitution. Any violators could be banned from politics for 5 years and jailed for 10 years.[2]

The restrictions against opposition to the draft were criticized by human rights bodies. "Even if amended to allow for 'factual' campaigning on the referendum, it is clear that the main purpose of the law is to intimidate and silence persons who don't share the official view," the Asian Human Rights Commission (AHRC) said. "Meanwhile the administration is pumping vast amounts of money into Yes propaganda that is set to increase quickly."[51]

The ban against campaigning against the constitution was enforced. In July, 20 soldiers and 10 policemen raided the house of a politician and seized anti-charter t-shirts, banners, documents, and recorded speeches

Martial law is in place across half the country. That is the harsh reality of today, and it is not an environment that would be conducive to a free and fair referendum. Any referendum carried out under the current repressive climate and alleged forced voting cannot be used to chart the path of the future of a democracy.[58]

Bangkok Post

Note : Now maybe you understand why people are in the street

Edited April 25, 2010 by pornsasi

[mitrapaap]

Might be worth a look.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...Red-Shirts.html

Yes its a good article and kind of scarry . Hope it does not materialise .

I agree in hoping it does not materialize..

Yesterday posters of the prime minister's smiling face with his eyes gouged out were stuck up around the Red Shirts' encampment

Have you read that article? "Mr Thaksin's brilliantly successful electoral strategy..." is that how you call vote buing in the UK? Sorry I stopped reading at that point.

[kenai]

Reporters Without Borders has a short article from a few days ago with criticism and concern directed towards both sides as well as concern over further censorship of news organization websites.

http://en.rsf.org/

Also for a world viewpoint, Canada's largest newspaper has had a reporter in Thailand for a week and has a revealing article..

it can likely be found by google searching key words "globe mail thai power struggle"

If someone linked these already my apologies.. have not been able to keep up with the pages.

[kissdani]

This PM has to be respected he would have more respect internationally than any other Thai politician , He has handled a difficult situation thoughtfully and tactfully.

I hope he gets through and is given the respect he deserves. Dealing with mafia , thugs and terrorists and inside spies he is calm and looks at the situation for the benefit of the majority of thai people.

90 percent of the red army are only there because they are getting paid . IF Thailand loses him over this it will put them back another 10 years.

Anyway well done PM keep the good work up .

It is not true that 90% are paid . Those from the country side are yes , otherwise they are so poor that they would not be abble to travel . But the majority of red protesters are by now from Bangkok and surrounding .

I am not sure where you source information , but what percentage would you say was from bangkok and surrounding ?

»ÃÐàÁÔ¹ÇèÒ¡ÅØèÁ¼ÙéªØÁ¹ØÁ·ÕèºÃÔàdzÃÒª»ÃÐʧ¤ì »ÃÐÁÒ³ 15,000 - 16,000 ¤¹ ¤Ô´à»ç¹¤¹µèÒ§¨Ñ§ËÇÑ´ 30 à»ÍÃìà«ç¹µì ¤¹¡ÃØ§à·¾Ï áÅлÃÔÁ³±Å 70 à»ÍÃìà«ç¹µì

http://media.thaigov.go.th/pageconfig/view...;contents=44001

[jcbangkok]

.

It started as a pro Thaksin movement , agree that was the catalyst , but it seems to me as if it has already gone far beyond that , in particular from pro Thaksin it has switched to anti governement and established order which the dems symbolize . Do you really think that were Thaksin to die tomorrow of cancer , the protest would stop ? I dont think so . Now there is a lot of face saving involved . The reds counter proposed , Abhisit refused . Perhaps somewhere ,sometimes they will finally reach a compromised agreement . Dunno . And then another issue is Abhisit proposing 9 months , and reds leaving the protest , tell me how can one be sure that Abhisit will respect his word , let alone still be the PM in 9 months . Abhisit is not even really in charge NOW let alone in 9 months .

Edit : Typo

If you are not going to trust the PM to do as he says, even though nothing he has done would support this notion, and believe the gov't should bow to the will of thugs, terrorists and law breakers then really is no reason for debate. This is truly a red point of view as can be attested to by their refusal to continue peaceful debates DIRECTLY with the PM who was open to talking and showed his willingness to compromise and his desire to hash out an agreement that would be in all of Thailand's interests.

This current red mob has lost their right to be heard or engage in debate. They have lost all credibility. They are desperate now and getting more dangerous. As soon as those temporarily brainwashed or promised money come to their senses and vacate .. you can be sure these thugs will be dispersed as should have been done the minute they crossed the line to prevent future groups from behaving the same way. It is time Thailand stops bowing to thugs and lawless mob mentality.

[Neurath]

Abhisit was legally elected under Thai law, so why should he dissolve the house just to please a minority of the population. The Reds are mercenaries and this is nothing to do with democracy, but all to do with Thaksin.

Cheers, Rick

The Thai constitution and Abhisit's government were created by anti-democratic coup plotters.

And that consitution was, for the first time in Thai history, voted for by the people. I'm sure the reds voted NO, but they were outnumbered. And the longer that red nonsense continues, the more they loose supporters, because the first to suffer if the country goes down are the poor, means the reds themselves. Usually Taxi drivers are pro Taksin. How many Taxis do you see with red flags or red stickers on them? Much less than we would usually expect. Today is the first day my neighbour starts working again, instead of going to collect money at Rajprasong. The reds start to loose the battle and Abhisit and the army have done well, waiting.

Some insight for you on how the 2007 constitution came to pass

Referendum on 2007 constitution

Media used included all television, cable and radio stations, websites, print media outlets, government agencies, education institutions, billboards and places where crowds gather. All state-run schools and universities were involved in the campaign. Spots were aired from 6 am until 10 pm with the message "Approve: New Constitution, close to the people"

The junta then agreed to a debate regarding the draft, but refused to air the debate on television, because it would create confusion among the public.[43] A debate was later aired on Nation Channel, a subscription-only cable channel, rather than on one of the government-owned free-to-air channels.

In late July, General Sonthi said that if the draft constitution failed the referendum, the junta would modify the 1997 Constitution for permanent use.

The junta passed a law that made criticism of the draft and opposition to the constitutional referendum a criminal act. Political parties were not allowed to persuade voters to cast ballots in favour or not in favour of the constitution. Any violators could be banned from politics for 5 years and jailed for 10 years.[2]

The restrictions against opposition to the draft were criticized by human rights bodies. "Even if amended to allow for 'factual' campaigning on the referendum, it is clear that the main purpose of the law is to intimidate and silence persons who don't share the official view," the Asian Human Rights Commission (AHRC) said. "Meanwhile the administration is pumping vast amounts of money into Yes propaganda that is set to increase quickly."[51]

The ban against campaigning against the constitution was enforced. In July, 20 soldiers and 10 policemen raided the house of a politician and seized anti-charter t-shirts, banners, documents, and recorded speeches

Martial law is in place across half the country. That is the harsh reality of today, and it is not an environment that would be conducive to a free and fair referendum. Any referendum carried out under the current repressive climate and alleged forced voting cannot be used to chart the path of the future of a democracy.[58]

Bangkok Post

Good points, but note that each and every one of them provide further argument for thinking that an election held under this constitution is unlikely to lead to a situation where the result of said election is viewed as legitimate. This is one of the reasons for thinking that an immediate dissolution of the house is a bad idea. The result will not be seen as legitimate regardless of outcome.

[Tod Daniels]

While the poster known as 'earthpig' is clearly living in his 'own private idaho" , (as well as being an expert in on-the-ground crowd estimation); he is correct in his assertions that at nite and on weekends the crowd is far larger than what it is during the early afternoon on any given weekday.

Estimating the size of a crowd from the perspective of being IN that actual crowd is fraught with peril as far as hard numbers are concerned. Even using crowd estimation software given the dimensions of a protest site AND using overhead pictures to gauge crowd densities (standing people, sitting people, etc) covering the site is still a crap shoot with probably a +/- accuracy of at best 25%.

Living near the “red-rabble moo-ban” I have made the sojourn MANY times over the last month or so, and I NEVER EVER saw near the numbers of people 'earthpig' alludes to with his 'man-on-the-ground' erroneous reports, BTW which are completely unsubstantiated by any pictorial evidence. (Your mobile doesn't have a cam huh?)

Given the large variability in mob size, a person in charge of crowd dispersal would perhaps wait to undertake such an endeavor during the day on a weekday; when both lack of protestors, lethargy from heat and good visibility are in their (the dispersers) favor.

Mob dispersal 101 is;

1 - drive them from their fortified stronghold out onto the streets

2 - get them moving in any direction but back to their ‘fort’

3 - not allowing large groups to re-form

Once the first two are accomplished, it's not that hard to push people where you want them to go, and is no where as difficult as ‘cat-herding’ (a fraught with peril occupation if there ever was one! )

Granted doing this during a week day complicates things due to normal business traffic. However because the business area has been held hostage by the reds for the length of time it has, this business traffic is totally manageable and almost negligible in the grand scheme of things.

Entreaty to ‘earthpig’

How about getting out from behind your monitor now and go snapping us a few pictures of the red-rabble, just to prove to us you actually know where Rajaprasong is.

As an aside; ANY foreigners NOT living in the glorious “Land ‘O Thais’, but who want red-rabble souvenirs; foot clappers, hats, shirts, elastic forearm covers, head bands (now available in SILK!!), or any of the other crap for sale down there; drop me a P/M and I’ll call my friend who sells red stuff there. Given the plethora of people selling, prices are rock bottom, and this is definitely the time to buy!! Call now! Don't wait!! Operators are standing by to take your order. ..

[kentucky]

Some insight for you on how the 2007 constitution came to pass

The government distributed hundreds of thousands of copies of the 2007 constitution prior to the vote.

People voted.

The referendum passed with a majority vote and the constitution was put into effect.

[TheItaliann]

How do you stop them from coming back next week or moving somewhere else? Certainly, putting the Leaders in prison is out of the question in Thailand.

[robertson468]

lets recap the real Thai heroes, the vast majority especially in Bangkok, who try despite the hardship caused by the yellows and now the reds to continue with their lives as normal as possible. Cheers go out to them. You are not alone ...

I whole heartedly agree.......but just let our imagination run riot for a minute or so. Let's say the Red Shirts get their way and let's say there is an election quite soon, which for the sake of arguement Phue Thai wins. So they now get Khun Thaksin back, have his two year prison sentence over ruled and his billions of baht returned to him, and then.......surprise, surprise elect him as Prime Minister! So we can all now quietly get on with our lives and put politics in Thailand to the land of "happy ever after". WAKEUP!! What the jumpin jehosafat do you think the Yellows are going to do and with knobs on. "Here we go round the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush, the mulberry bush, here we go round the mulburry bush and we (Thailand) all fall down".

TEFLKrabi couldn't say it because of his lack of religion, but as a Christian, I can say it loud and clear - God help Thailand, please.

[SpoliaOpima]

Red negotiation = give us 100% of what we want no matter how ridiculous or we will petrol bomb you. Nice! I wonder if reds started beheading govt. officials and anyone not supporting them if these lunatic farang on TV would still defend them? oh they just want democracy - BS!

Like radical Islam, yes. "Islam is a peaceful religion and if you don't believe it we will behead you."

[barnsworth]

Another newspaper not seen on here say that Udon Thani police convoy stopped this morning.

All tires slashed police and army sent back to base.

[GungaDin]

I am not a big fan of the Telegraph Newspaper but I do flick through various publications when on Yahoo and wanting a broader look at the news. Read an interesting article yesterday. May not be 100% factual but it does go to show how others view this matter. In many ways it made scary reading for the future of Thailand as things stand at present.

Might be worth a look.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...Red-Shirts.html

Thanks for the link. A very interesting article from a quality British newspaper (which incidentally is politically very right wing.) All Thai visa posters should read this uncensored report it may make you think again.

Messrs Ian MacKinnon and Nick Meo must have (conveniently) forgotten "Dr." Thaksin's corruption & human rights record.

Interesting?

[pornsasi]

.

It started as a pro Thaksin movement , agree that was the catalyst , but it seems to me as if it has already gone far beyond that , in particular from pro Thaksin it has switched to anti governement and established order which the dems symbolize . Do you really think that were Thaksin to die tomorrow of cancer , the protest would stop ? I dont think so . Now there is a lot of face saving involved . The reds counter proposed , Abhisit refused . Perhaps somewhere ,sometimes they will finally reach a compromised agreement . Dunno . And then another issue is Abhisit proposing 9 months , and reds leaving the protest , tell me how can one be sure that Abhisit will respect his word , let alone still be the PM in 9 months . Abhisit is not even really in charge NOW let alone in 9 months .

Edit : Typo

If you are not going to trust the PM to do as he says, even though nothing he has done would support this notion, and believe the gov't should bow to the will of thugs, terrorists and law breakers then really is no reason for debate. This is truly a red point of view as can be attested to by their refusal to continue peaceful debates DIRECTLY with the PM who was open to talking and showed his willingness to compromise and his desire to hash out an agreement that would be in all of Thailand's interests.

This current red mob has lost their right to be heard or engage in debate. They have lost all credibility. They are desperate now and getting more dangerous. As soon as those temporarily brainwashed or promised money come to their senses and vacate .. you can be sure these thugs will be dispersed as should have been done the minute they crossed the line to prevent future groups from behaving the same way. It is time Thailand stops bowing to thugs and lawless mob mentality.

The yellows started this kind of behavior , anyway its not my point ,

I dont see much reasons to trust the dems and their dirty tricks

based on previous experience (one example)

http://thainews.prd.go.th/en/news.php?id=255211180001

Well lets wait and see

[barnsworth]

Red negotiation = give us 100% of what we want no matter how ridiculous or we will petrol bomb you. Nice! I wonder if reds started beheading govt. officials and anyone not supporting them if these lunatic farang on TV would still defend them? oh they just want democracy - BS!

Like radical Islam, yes. "Islam is a peaceful religion and if you don't believe it we will behead you."

you say radical Issan mate!

Strewth I don't think many people going to go north for law and order if they kill those reds in Bangkok.

Radical or not, there are load of them and the Sheilas would see off most falang armies alone!!

[whiterussian]

animatic or lannarebirth, please would you be so kind as to educate me!

why do the reds not want to wait for scheduled election date do you think?

It cant be down to an army reshuffle can it?

personally, although I hope the reds win the election out of principle.. even though I prefer Mr A... I too wish the reds would go home, and do whatever they do until its time for polls..

thank you.. if you have the time or inclination...

IMO it is a combination of the military reshuffle and succession issues. The military has long had it's nose in various projects in the provinces but as long as their raison d' etre lived they could give the illusion of cohesiveness. If Thaksin were present here during a succession I think he could scoop up alot of military, who are not loyal to him per se but looking to get paid. These would form the backbone of his "muscle" as he moves Thailand to a more authoritarian government. Abhisit IMO is likely to reshuffle in a way where "professional soldiers" are promoted that are not only loyal to ^^^ but also understand they are servants of the people and not their masters. It's a big f'ing mess and it's baby steps forward and possibly giant leaps backward.

This is what I'm talking about:

"We are an army for the nation, for the monarchy and for the people. We will do our job without taking sides. We will follow government policy," Anupong said.

vs. this:

"Thaksin appoints brother Army Chief"

"Thaksin appoints brother in law Police Chief"

"Thaksin brother in law to replace samak as PM"

Yes I agree with lannarebirth, this is the crux of the biscuit.

Endless nepotism and purchased loyalties to create iron fist control

or,

A professional leaning army looking towards the inevitable succession,

and it's attendant uncertainties, since it is several generations since this occured.

Secondarily this iron fisted control is the key to the kingdom's riches.

And the key to long lasting power....

If you control the army you control how much anyone dares dispute you,

if you stifle the press as Thaksin CLEARLY did in the past,

then you limit people even KNOWING of issue to dispute.

One thing is never in dispute, Thaksin is a control freak,

he brooks no dissenting voices even in his cabinets.

He has a selfmade man CEO mentality of I am right

'my way or the highway', and this is reflected in his past governance style,

and in the Red Shirts negotiating style too. It is very UN-Thai too.

Thais like reaching consensus and meeting in the middle.

Thaksin is the complete opposite the middle is where he SAYS itis.

I would have no problem with an red election win IF..

they vote in MPs that :

a ) Were working for the people ALL of the people

b ) Were actually competent as legislators

c ) Were not trying top re-write the constitution to give a pass

to Thaksin and his cronies and their graft strategies.

And the wrong crew of incompetents trying to rig the system for Thaksin

would cause PAD to come out 10 x as militant as before.

Because they already know life under Thaksin's thumb would be intolerable.

Control of the Army list = power during the succesion

Power during the succession = ability to install your control mechanisms (influence)

Installing your own control mechanisms = profits without accountability for decades.

So controlling this years budget and the army list are top priority for Thaksin.

Budget means he can distribute patronage in the feudal style

Army control is pure power, ongoing.

Thnak you!

[rametindallas]

JD I have been there and seen it with my own eyes it is huge. I am not a red supporter but when you see the size of this protest you will be amazed. Why dont you go and look for yourself?

PLEASE SHOW US YOUR PICTURES

I have been there a number of times with the last being the day before the grenade attacks. Each time the one thing that shocks me is how small the red shirt group is compared to the photos and news reports. It is easy to make groups look bigger in the media. In fact when you go to the red site you see they have numerous projectors set up going back from the stage but none of them are being used because the people don't go that far back.

The below were taken in the days following the group all moving to their current location. The first picture looks like a rather large crowd taken from the first sky bridge but the second is from the next sky bridge and you can see they only reach to the first sky bridge even though they are very spread out.

Point is, this was pretty much at the peak of their numbers there for day time crowds.

This one is looking the other way from the bridge. As you can see they have certainly claimed a lot of area with vehicles and such but the number of folks is not that great, even at the peak of their numbers though I will admit the numbers previously grew at night.

these pictures prove my point. the numbers were small when they were taken.

last night these same streets were packed with humanity.

Red Tide rising.

I honestly don't mean this as an insult but are you okay? Has the stress of the situation got to you that maybe you should seek medical help? Did you read what you wrote? You are saying pictures from a few weeks ago prove your point about last night? The entire point is nobody believes your claims of last night and ALL the facts and reports say the opposite (including those of the red leaders). PLEASE SHOW US YOU PICTURES OR LINK TO VIDEO.

jcbangkok I do believe earthpig is just trying to push everyone's button. We all know what he is posting is nonsense.

Actually, some people lead such insignificant lives that they go to extremes to gain attention; even bad attention is better than being ignored. If you don't feed them (respond) they will go somewhere else to feed their craving.

[chadintheusa]

You won't see the army clearing the protesters anytime soon. Their previous attempt on April 10 was a failure for them and the reds finest hour. It gave them the attention they were craving and the opportunity to violently attack the army. Since that time we have clearly seen that this is not a peaceful movement. They sit behind barricades sharpening spears calling for blood from their stage. When they aren't busy trying to intimidate the PM or those who live and work in the neighborhood they intimidate their own to keep them in line. Without another violent clash with the government they will run out of steam eventually. They can no longer leave their main base in large numbers and they've dropped their signature red to hide their dwindling numbers. The PM seems willing to let them implode on their own. One the imminent crackdown they claimed was coming doesn't appear they will come up with another set of lies to tell their congregation. They will claim victory and that they've scared the PM, make more threats, and look more crazy.

(I said that they would make more threats, Nation TV has received a bomb threat this afternoon)

Edited April 25, 2010 by chadintheusa

[mitrapaap]

Some insight for you on how the 2007 constitution came to pass

The government distributed hundreds of thousands of copies of the 2007 constitution prior to the vote.

People voted.

The referendum passed with a majority vote and the constitution was put into effect.

Exactly. Actually, every single Thai household got a copy of it.

[canuckamuck]

It is amazing to see so many opinions about which criminal group has the most merit.

This is a lose lose situation here and the best you can hope for is the situation dissolves through apathy.

There isn't a single good option in the current stable of political candidates.

The lunatics have run the asylum for as long as anyone can remember.

Those of you with heated opinions really need to have a good look at the side you support and ask yourself why you pick that team.

[pornsasi]

I am not a big fan of the Telegraph Newspaper but I do flick through various publications when on Yahoo and wanting a broader look at the news. Read an interesting article yesterday. May not be 100% factual but it does go to show how others view this matter. In many ways it made scary reading for the future of Thailand as things stand at present.

Might be worth a look.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...Red-Shirts.html

Thanks for the link. A very interesting article from a quality British newspaper (which incidentally is politically very right wing.) All Thai visa posters should read this uncensored report it may make you think again.

Messrs Ian MacKinnon and Nick Meo must have (conveniently) forgotten "Dr." Thaksin's corruption & human rights record.

Interesting?

An interessant point indeed and agree with you . Thaksin is guilty of complicity in murder in his war on drugs , those interested can google "Thaksin war on drugs" . A couple of thousand thais were executed by police/army paid thugs acting on order from Thaksin , of which half those executed had never had anything to do with drugs (the other half were mostly users not trafficant) . This is a case that could be brought to an international tribunal and guarantee 100% Thaksin extradition if found guilty .

How interesting that Abhisit has not pursued the issue . Well no one wonders why ? He is so compromised with the police and army high ranks , he owes them his position, that of course it would be very impolite from him to involve them .

But that is Thailand ....

[ozzieman05]

Red negotiation = give us 100% of what we want no matter how ridiculous or we will petrol bomb you. Nice! I wonder if reds started beheading govt. officials and anyone not supporting them if these lunatic farang on TV would still defend them? oh they just want democracy - BS!

Like radical Islam, yes. "Islam is a peaceful religion and if you don't believe it we will behead you."

you say radical Issan mate!

Strewth I don't think many people going to go north for law and order if they kill those reds in Bangkok.

Radical or not, there are load of them and the Sheilas would see off most falang armies alone!!

Law and Order

Where

Not in Thailand these days

"Sheila" wow have not hard this Australian slang word since the sixties

watch it your showing your age