Investigating Thailand’s Traditional Sakdina System

[rick75]

So Thaksin controls there funds and they despise Him, yet they are the ones who are down in Bkk demonstrating?

I just don't follow what you are saying.

Also the information is not coming from bar flys, its coming from scholars, authors, people that have a real view.

Google abc Australia, Foreign Correspondent and see if you are allowed to view an episode from a couple of weeks back.

Edited April 26, 2010 by rick75

[Chinavet]

So Thaksin controls there funds and they despise Him, yet they are the ones who are down in Bkk demonstrating?

I just don't follow what you are saying.

Also the information is not coming from bar flys, its coming from scholars, authors, people that have a real view.

Google abc Australia, Foreign Correspondent and see if you are allowed to view an episode from a couple of weeks back.

Rick, you might be surprised to know the revelations being aired in Aussie are common knowledge (with biases and truth stretching) throughout all strata of Thai society. Kevin Rafferty with Japantimes is one of the rare foreign press providing balanced reporting, without focusing on a few juicy bits that sell.

I am guessing your input is meant with good intentions, but I for one am really fed up with the cliche's posters use for every segment of this discussion. If by "bar flys" you are referring to all of the long term expats that have invested their lives, usually to the benefit of many, in Thailand...then I'll take their views before the 'real views' of your scholars, authors and better informed people.

[rick75]

thaihome stated the view's were presented from jurno's on Sukhumvit barstool's.

I should say I am in no way supportive of the Red's, I am of the opinion there is more to this, that is all.

Edited April 26, 2010 by rick75

[trompelemonde]

So Thaksin controls there funds and they despise Him, yet they are the ones who are down in Bkk demonstrating?

I just don't follow what you are saying.

Also the information is not coming from bar flys, its coming from scholars, authors, people that have a real view.

Google abc Australia, Foreign Correspondent and see if you are allowed to view an episode from a couple of weeks back.

Rick, you might be surprised to know the revelations being aired in Aussie are common knowledge (with biases and truth stretching) throughout all strata of Thai society. Kevin Rafferty with Japantimes is one of the rare foreign press providing balanced reporting, without focusing on a few juicy bits that sell.

I am guessing your input is meant with good intentions, but I for one am really fed up with the cliche's posters use for every segment of this discussion. If by "bar flys" you are referring to all of the long term expats that have invested their lives, usually to the benefit of many, in Thailand...then I'll take their views before the 'real views' of your scholars, authors and better informed people.

I think he was responding the previous poster's comment when he used the term 'bar fly' in conenction with Aussie journalists - wasn't aimed at you

[rick75]

Chinavet, I just read Rafferty's article april 23, I think you must be reading a different article to me, as what he is clearly saying I am trying to get across, albeit due to LM laws I am not willing to be as bold.

Hope this clears up things

[Chinavet]

Chinavet, I just read Rafferty's article april 23, I think you must be reading a different article to me, as what he is clearly saying I am trying to get across, albeit due to LM laws I am not willing to be as bold.

Hope this clears up things

Same article. My apologies, to you and all others...I got a bit cross threaded between posters. Forum fatigue. I don't want to be the one to bring down the level of one of the few sane threads in all of this, starting with an excellent post.

[billythefish]

I'll agree that the OP has put together a well written post but it's logic is flawed and "facts" somewhat suspect.

The single most important reason the present situation exists is because the elites staged a military coup which removed from power a very popular although flawed leader who was democratically elected in a landslide victory and because that leader and his new and very foreign non-Thai concept of democracy threatened the elites traditional ruling position. It's as simple as that. If the elites wanted to get rid of Thaksin they should have done it right and run a candidate who actually had a platform of popular policies and convinced the majority of the population that he/she was better than Thaksin and removed him by use of the ballot box not the gun.

It was the injustice of the coup and the subsequent outlawing of the poor's political parties that caused the tremendous resentment you see in the red shirts today. As happens in any power vacuum the worst usually float to the top and that is what has happened within the red shirt movement. Same happened when the PAD was causing all the havoc, remember. Add to all this the fact that the poor have been portrayed as hillbillies and baffoons in the press and popular media for years and also regarded as such by the elites forever and you get the natural result of the anger being displayed by the red shirts today. When you've been insulted and suffered injustice long enough it's only human nature to eventually fight back.

While vestiges of the ancient sakdina system remain, the system as originally developed has been gone for decades (maybe centuries). The abuses perpetrated by the local headmen or munnai as the OP has described them have much more to do with plain old fashioned organized strong-armed corruption than they do with any ancient hierachy system.

The ruling coalition could have used their first year in power to introduce real change and fairness but instead they wasted the time demonizing Thaksin, taking him to trial in absentia and attempting to consolidate their power by pushing through a new constitution that conveniently makes it very difficult to remove them from power by any means other than force.

I am neither a red shirt or Abhisit supporter; the above is simply my observations on what is really happening, but it unfortunately appears that barring a miracle violence is the only outcome that's going to come out of the present situation.

Well Said!

[Chinavet]

I'll agree that the OP has put together a well written post but it's logic is flawed and "facts" somewhat suspect.

The single most important reason the present situation exists is because the elites staged a military coup which removed from power a very popular although flawed leader who was democratically elected in a landslide victory and because that leader and his new and very foreign non-Thai concept of democracy threatened the elites traditional ruling position. It's as simple as that. If the elites wanted to get rid of Thaksin they should have done it right and run a candidate who actually had a platform of popular policies and convinced the majority of the population that he/she was better than Thaksin and removed him by use of the ballot box not the gun.

It was the injustice of the coup and the subsequent outlawing of the poor's political parties that caused the tremendous resentment you see in the red shirts today. As happens in any power vacuum the worst usually float to the top and that is what has happened within the red shirt movement. Same happened when the PAD was causing all the havoc, remember. Add to all this the fact that the poor have been portrayed as hillbillies and baffoons in the press and popular media for years and also regarded as such by the elites forever and you get the natural result of the anger being displayed by the red shirts today. When you've been insulted and suffered injustice long enough it's only human nature to eventually fight back.

While vestiges of the ancient sakdina system remain, the system as originally developed has been gone for decades (maybe centuries). The abuses perpetrated by the local headmen or munnai as the OP has described them have much more to do with plain old fashioned organized strong-armed corruption than they do with any ancient hierachy system.

The ruling coalition could have used their first year in power to introduce real change and fairness but instead they wasted the time demonizing Thaksin, taking him to trial in absentia and attempting to consolidate their power by pushing through a new constitution that conveniently makes it very difficult to remove them from power by any means other than force.

I am neither a red shirt or Abhisit supporter; the above is simply my observations on what is really happening, but it unfortunately appears that barring a miracle violence is the only outcome that's going to come out of the present situation.

Great to see some informed, real discussion for a change. We all know there are wheels within wheels within wheels to Thai politics and society.

With all respect, I think Groongthep's 'single most important reason' is debatable. I don't believe you can pick any point in time that really defines the events we see unfolding today. It is not that simple. There has been plenty of discussion about Thaksin's status as a caretaker Prime Minister and the reasons for the coup. It was only an unpopular coup for his staunch supporters, mostly in his heartland where the financial benefits were greatest. I do agree in an ideal world, the elites and the ordinary thinking Thais with some political savvy should have just beaten him at the ballot box, but that reality sadly was not an option because he had the game so rigged.

The injustice of the coup and outlawing of political parties rightfully caused resentment. But I don't believe we saw 'the tremendous resentment' until the court's decision to take Thaksin's assets, a four year delay. I do believe what we are seeing (today) is more to do with massive money politics directly linked to the local headmen/Munnai than a sudden mass movement and resentment of the poor. But tomorrow, any future government will have to be seen to address the needs of the poor. It will probably get ugly as I cannot even imagine the cost or deeds it will take to satisfy the new expectations of 20+ million people trying to eke a living out of a single crop, poor soil, agricultural environment. Who is going to pay? The political will needed (taxes) would alienate the rest of society (voters/protesters).

Agreed on the ruling coalition, it could have done a much better job. But few governments have faced such a well funded, tech, media savvy onslaught of purely negative opposition. I give them kudos for achieving anything at all, but none for getting their message out effectively. Lots and lots of mistakes, but Thai politics only gives ugly bedfellows as an option. A bit limiting when your political partners are only there for the traditional gravy train.

There is plenty of resentment and problems left to go around. The almost ignored south. The city poor...I believe have a more miserable existence than do the village poor. The underpaid civil servants. The unyielding bureaucracy, corruption through everything...and accepted. A police force recognized as a criminal organization. How does that heal itself? The real risk the wrong general is top dog one day and does not want to hand power back. The list goes on.

I do hope that whatever results from near future events, the Thai way of healing dominates and new awareness leads to progressive, accountable political system. A big ask, but I hope.

[blaze]

A very good analysis of the Sakinda system. Which is not a whole lot different from the feudal systems of Europe and Asia several centuries ago. But the author neglected (wisely) to allude to the unassailable authority that not only permits the system- but institutionalizes it. Feudalism- and the sakhinda- were not- are not -siimply a matter of powerful people exploiting less powerful- they depend upon an ultimate authority to which all others are subordinated- thus creating a pecking order. Without that father of fathers (ie- the Holy Father, in Latin America)- the system begins to crumble. Obedience for the sake of obedience is no longer tolerated- and a gradual gringing awareness of individual rights and equality begins to take hold.

[swissie]

Thanks to the OP and especially to the MOD(s), that have (not yet) deleted this post.

It would be desirable, if this particular post would find it's way into the pages of "The Bangkok Post" or even better (translated and in Thai language): Into the pages of a widely read Thai-Newspaper!!!!!!!!! Imagine this !! WHOW !!! Could something like this happen in Thailand ? Hardly. But it can always be tried again in 20 years.

[lannarebirth]

Are you kidding me, the group are far from a shadowy group, I am currently in Australia and what is happening in Thailand is getting massive amounts of media exposure, we are able to see and discuss view points you are not. You are silly or naive to think that living in Thailand you are even remotely able to see a balanced view of current events.

The thing you are able to talk about where you are and we can't is about an opportunity arising to cement long into the future the things Thaihome is talking about. What he's talking about is the reality of Thai politics. The succession merely provides the opportunity for many to change allegiances to that darker side and rally around some authoritarian figure who delivers money in return for votes which allows the patronage to continue. If that happens you can give up on ever seeing democracy in Thailand.

[Krungbin]

Great, great post Indo Siam, thank you. and I totally agree with the views of thaihome and Chinavet too... Even though stating "The injustice of the coup".... In my view, "injustice" is a little bit "simplistic". For no coup, we would probably now have a Mahataksir in power... After a very bloody repression of the "yellow" demonstration planned for the Friday after it took place.

[Arkady]

Excellent OP. Now the reds have already burned down Central World and part of Siam Paragon, as alluded to in the post, and Thaksin is predicting guerilla war which presumably means he has already prepared the funding for it. What next from our super ammat - targeted assassinations, abductions, car bombings, suicide bombings?