Worsening Crisis Pushes Thailand Towards Anarchy

[whybother]

If the gov't and/or military goal was only to clear out the red mob, it is VERY foolish to believe they are incapable of doing this in a matter of hours. However, they are doing their best to avoid casualties of those ignorant poor folk whose minds have been brainwashed by the constant fuel of hatred and lies coming from their red leaders.

Kind of ironic they have convinced them to risk their lives largely for a man (once the richest in all Thailand) who doesn't have guts to even face the Thai criminal justice system over a 2-year sentence that would have surely been suspended if he had not fled and agreed to obey the law in the future. In fact, before the court verdict regarding his money the PM said he would forgive him if he expressed remorse.

And this is where it all goes wrong.

The Reds are not ignorant.

The Yellows are ignorant when they try to call the Reds "uneducated and ignorant".

The Reds are not "brainwashed", it has been since 2006 non stop brainwashing anti-Thaksin propaganda that has suckered Yellow people in. Anyone who believes the nonsense from the Yellow media and obvious biased Yellow posters on here are the ones who are getting "brainwashed".

... as opposed the the obviously biased Red posters on here that are "brainwashed" to believe that anyone that says anything slightly against the reds must be Yellow and elite who want to ground the poor into the dirt.

[hammered]

This threadis a good example of how passionate is the debate, propaganda no more positive criticism: we are in the worse. How smart people like this website suppose to comprise can go down so low.... Do you realise that you are fuelling the division and aiming to the Civil war....only Anupong has some restraints as he knows his Army is as divided as the Country and if he engages his troops, there is a high probability that Unity of Army will burst and the Country will fall in the hel_l....

We suppose to be between intelligent people here and we should try to promote a third way...

I doubt anyone really cares what is said on an expat political forum;) I

I do agree some of the posts go too far emotively. Does anyone really want to see lots more people dead, civil wars or a complete breakdown of law and order? Right now most of the country is just as per normal but if that changes nobody will be able to control things and you will end up with local militias controlling things in some areas and some vague law enforcement in others. However something to unify most or something that most can agree to is needed without any significant side winning or more to the point without any significant side losing. I doubt you could have any kind of fair election right now and I also doubt you can put it off for too long, so it is just a matter of agreeing when as things stand right now but that window of opportunity is getting smaller and smaller as everyone ramps things up on a daily basis. However leaderships dont seem to be open to this

Just my silly ideas below

election agreed in 6 months or something similar with all parties agreeing to the rule book and results in advance. A few Consty ammendments if needed to set the rule book such as on disolutions and to agree constituency size. Then after election:

no constitutional ammnedments which arent passed in each seperate region of the country. Focuses on regional divide and fears and gives each region a veto and menas politicos have to focus on what they can get through in a divided country that wont inflame. It also protects minority interests. Means consensus is needed and polticiains must work together whether they want to or not.

[craigt3365]

Pretty easy really...I sympathize with the red cause because I live in Isan and every day I see the deprived lives of these poor farmers breaking their backs in the field for a pittance...when I contrast that the to life of luxury and privilege of the corrupt elite it makes me vomit...as a farang I'm obliged to keep out of it directly and to avoid discussing it with Thai people.

Are you talking about the corrupt elite in the villages, with the big houses and european cars? Or the corrupt red leaders and the corrupt Thaksin?

Corruption is a huge problem in Thailand. But it isn't just in the domain of the few rich elite in Bangkok.

In reality, if you are against the corruption in Thailand, you can't really be a supporter of Thaksin and the red leaders.

Pretty much every politician in Thailand is corrupt. All those red leaders on stage are corrupt...all those yellow leaders on stage are corrupt. They are only trying to get into power to make more money...and unfortunately, the poor issan people think the red leaders are actually trying to do something for them.

I also feel sorry for the poor folks in issan...some are my relatives. But this is no different than ANY other country. Want to see some poor people, come to my country...we have plenty of them also...but they don't have land to help them survive...just handouts from the government...or is that me?

Very sad state of affairs here in Thailand....

[Netfan]

I don't know how any westerner can actually support the red protestors with how they are acting now.

Red supporters condemn the government, the army, the elite and the yellows. There are some good reasons to condemn these groups for their actions in the past.

But you support the lawlessness of the reds.

You support them shutting down a city of 10 million people.

You support them searching individuals going about their daily lives.

You support them shutting down roads around the country.

You support them bringing down the economy which will affect all Thais, and especially the poorer ones, for years to come.

Is this the sort of country that you want to live in?

A country where a small minority can do anything that they want? I am not talking about the grass roots red supporters, the poor farmers, the factory workers, the construction workers.

I am talking about the thugs searching people, searching cars, blockading highways. If they can do this now, what will they be able to do if their leaders control the government, the police and the army?

Support the poor. Condemn the elite.

But don't support the thugs ruining the country.

Pretty easy really...I sympathize with the red cause because I live in Isan and every day I see the deprived lives of these poor farmers breaking their backs in the field for a pittance...when I contrast that the to life of luxury and privilege of the corrupt elite it makes me vomit...as a farang I'm obliged to keep out of it directly and to avoid discussing it with Thai people.

So be precise. Tell us what policies you would like to see such that poor farmers can do better? Look ahead, if you get a red led government what do you want see them do? Please don't say you want another village handout. If your village is the same as mine then you will know that was massively abused with most money going to pay off gambling debts at usurious interest rates. Not many new tractors were funded or vocational training fees paid.........

You won't get a response. The red supporters here have never given an outline of a plan to help the "poor upcountry farmers" - btw, poor farmers are not the only people in the North/NE- they have no plan other than to return Thaksin to power. You can see how their version of democracy will work by reading about the "checkpoints" now being set up around the country. What right do red thugs have to stop citizens and search persons/vehicles?

[dhrobertson]

If the gov't and/or military goal was only to clear out the red mob, it is VERY foolish to believe they are incapable of doing this in a matter of hours. However, they are doing their best to avoid casualties of those ignorant poor folk whose minds have been brainwashed by the constant fuel of hatred and lies coming from their red leaders.

Kind of ironic they have convinced them to risk their lives largely for a man (once the richest in all Thailand) who doesn't have guts to even face the Thai criminal justice system over a 2-year sentence that would have surely been suspended if he had not fled and agreed to obey the law in the future. In fact, before the court verdict regarding his money the PM said he would forgive him if he expressed remorse.

And this is where it all goes wrong.

The Reds are not ignorant.

The Yellows are ignorant when they try to call the Reds "uneducated and ignorant".

The Reds are not "brainwashed", it has been since 2006 non stop brainwashing anti-Thaksin propaganda that has suckered Yellow people in. Anyone who believes the nonsense from the Yellow media and obvious biased Yellow posters on here are the ones who are getting "brainwashed".

Of course all these comments are generalisations. However, are you really suggesting that a majority of Issan people are NOT poorly educated? Do you know what ignorant actually means? Lacking in education or knowledge is a reasonable definition. I would hazard that the better paid Thais in Bangkok typically have benefitted from better (but frankly far from excellent) education. One thing that Abhisit has done is to make education free for all. My wife finished school at 13 like many other Isaan girls. She is certainly not stupid but she IS ignorant in many ways (Don't tell her mind..). If you want to help the poor, help them get proper secondary education and the opportunity to get proper vocational training and the opportunity to get tertiary eduction.

[Netfan]

I repeat my question to all the Red supporters here; "What will the country look like after you have been able to canvas enough votes again to win elections?" Chavalit for PM, Chalerm swaps seats with Suthep????

I know its a broken record - but you will not get a response. What are they going to say- Chavailit, Chalerm, Jatuporn? Arisman? There is not one person among the Red leadership capable of leading a nation.

[jcbangkok]

Although it has always been clear to me that Thaksin and the majority of reds are against the Royal Family (just look at the lack of His Majesty's pictures in the mob and those of Thaksin) but I am sure this chart (posted on flicker) is not going to help the average Thai understand the govt's claimed conspiracy.

[RockyBeerbelly]

I repeat my question to all the Red supporters here; "What will the country look like after you have been able to canvas enough votes again to win elections?" Chavalit for PM, Chalerm swaps seats with Suthep????

I know its a broken record - but you will not get a response. What are they going to say- Chavailit, Chalerm, Jatuporn? Arisman? There is not one person among the Red leadership capable of leading a nation.

So basically, they are all for a revolution for equality, but have no answers how to achieve this equality......typical

[bangkoklight]

The pro-government Yellows harp on about the thug-like nature of the Reds. If the Reds are indeed thugs, who created them? Are the PAD thugs? Why not? Is it because they never had time to become thugs? Is it because they got wanted they wanted within 9 days the last time they protested? The “thug” never came out in them.

The PAD benefited from a coup in 2006, and in 2008 they were able to persuade the courts to change the democratically elected government to an engineered one in just 9 days by besieging an airport. The Reds don’t want another coup and they don’t want the courts to engineer another government. That's why they are protesting! The Reds want fresh elections and they will remain on the streets until they achieve this goal.

Unlike the Yellows who don’t mind a coup or a rearrangement of parliamentary seats to favour them, the Reds just want fair elections where the MPs elected are representative of the people of the whole country. Why is this concept so difficult for the pro-government Yellows to understand?

[sealy]

If the gov't and/or military goal was only to clear out the red mob, it is VERY foolish to believe they are incapable of doing this in a matter of hours. However, they are doing their best to avoid casualties of those ignorant poor folk whose minds have been brainwashed by the constant fuel of hatred and lies coming from their red leaders.

Kind of ironic they have convinced them to risk their lives largely for a man (once the richest in all Thailand) who doesn't have guts to even face the Thai criminal justice system over a 2-year sentence that would have surely been suspended if he had not fled and agreed to obey the law in the future. In fact, before the court verdict regarding his money the PM said he would forgive him if he expressed remorse.

You shuld evolve a little in your assessment of the situation: red Shirts are no more fighting for Thaksin but for themselves. There are huge problems to fix immediately in northern region. The Country cannot continue its 2 speed development as per the past.

Nor the Red Nor the Democrats can run the Country NOW. We need a transition with very smart people like ANAND at the head. Abhisit has revealed himself as a partisan leader not as a stateman. personnally, I give credit only to Anupong for the correct assessment of the situation and trying to limit the bloodbath.

sd

"brainwashed"?

Ignorant poor folk(s) sic"?

please elaborate, jcbkk.

two prisoners, as one story goes, look out from behind the bars of their prison cells.

one saw the stars, the other saw the mud.

two other prisoners , as another story goes, slept in the same prison cell.

both woke up with different dreams.

which one will jcbkk choose to be?

("neither" will not be accepted as an answer here).

(this is merely a test as to who is likely to be the brainwashed and/or brainwashing one).

[dhrobertson]

I don't know how any westerner can actually support the red protestors with how they are acting now.

Red supporters condemn the government, the army, the elite and the yellows. There are some good reasons to condemn these groups for their actions in the past.

But you support the lawlessness of the reds.

You support them shutting down a city of 10 million people.

You support them searching individuals going about their daily lives.

You support them shutting down roads around the country.

You support them bringing down the economy which will affect all Thais, and especially the poorer ones, for years to come.

Is this the sort of country that you want to live in?

A country where a small minority can do anything that they want? I am not talking about the grass roots red supporters, the poor farmers, the factory workers, the construction workers.

I am talking about the thugs searching people, searching cars, blockading highways. If they can do this now, what will they be able to do if their leaders control the government, the police and the army?

Support the poor. Condemn the elite.

But don't support the thugs ruining the country.

Pretty easy really...I sympathize with the red cause because I live in Isan and every day I see the deprived lives of these poor farmers breaking their backs in the field for a pittance...when I contrast that the to life of luxury and privilege of the corrupt elite it makes me vomit...as a farang I'm obliged to keep out of it directly and to avoid discussing it with Thai people.

So be precise. Tell us what policies you would like to see such that poor farmers can do better? Look ahead, if you get a red led government what do you want see them do? Please don't say you want another village handout. If your village is the same as mine then you will know that was massively abused with most money going to pay off gambling debts at usurious interest rates. Not many new tractors were funded or vocational training fees paid.........

You won't get a response. The red supporters here have never given an outline of a plan to help the "poor upcountry farmers" - btw, poor farmers are not the only people in the North/NE- they have no plan other than to return Thaksin to power. You can see how their version of democracy will work by reading about the "checkpoints" now being set up around the country. What right do red thugs have to stop citizens and search persons/vehicles?

So come on red shirt supporters. Have you no ideas? Please tell us what policies you want to see implemented by the next government.

Frankly, I don't think the reds have any ideas on re-distribution of wealth or progressive taxation systems.

Come on you reds, tell us what you really want to see happen. Anybody that has spoken to demonstrators will tell you they have no ideas what ever.

What is it that people are prepared to lay down their lives for?

Waiting...........

[RockyBeerbelly]

Although it has always been clear to me that Thaksin and the majority of reds are against the Royal Family (just look at the lack of His Majesty's pictures in the mob and those of Thaksin) but I am sure this chart (posted on flicker) is not going to help the average Thai understand the govt's claimed conspiracy.

Where is the "Assembly Of The Poor" in this picture? Aren't they supporting the fight for equality?

[way2muchcoffee]

The pro-government Yellows harp on about the thug-like nature of the Reds. If the Reds are indeed thugs, who created them? Are the PAD thugs? Why not? Is it because they never had time to become thugs? Is it because they got wanted they wanted within 9 days the last time they protested? The “thug” never came out in them.

The PAD benefited from a coup in 2006, and in 2008 they were able to persuade the courts to change the democratically elected government to an engineered one in just 9 days by besieging an airport. The Reds don’t want another coup and they don’t want the courts to engineer another government. That's why they are protesting! The Reds want fresh elections and they will remain on the streets until they achieve this goal.

Unlike the Yellows who don’t mind a coup or a rearrangement of parliamentary seats to favour them, the Reds just want fair elections where the MPs elected are representative of the people of the whole country. Why is this concept so difficult for the pro-government Yellows to understand?

Because the red shirts are using violence and terrorism to achieve their aims. The PAD was roundly criticized by everyone for their move at the airport. With that one action they lost most of their support and all credibility. The red shirt leaders haven't learned this lesson. The concept of elections isn't hard to understand. The means the red shirts are employing in order to achieve this are illegal and unacceptable. And because of this they too have no credibility.

Edited April 27, 2010 by way2muchcoffee

[Jerrytheyoung]

I don't know how any westerner can actually support the red protestors with how they are acting now.

Red supporters condemn the government, the army, the elite and the yellows. There are some good reasons to condemn these groups for their actions in the past.

But you support the lawlessness of the reds.

You support them shutting down a city of 10 million people.

You support them searching individuals going about their daily lives.

You support them shutting down roads around the country.

You support them bringing down the economy which will affect all Thais, and especially the poorer ones, for years to come.

Is this the sort of country that you want to live in?

A country where a small minority can do anything that they want? I am not talking about the grass roots red supporters, the poor farmers, the factory workers, the construction workers.

I am talking about the thugs searching people, searching cars, blockading highways. If they can do this now, what will they be able to do if their leaders control the government, the police and the army?

Support the poor. Condemn the elite.

But don't support the thugs ruining the country.

Pretty easy really...I sympathize with the red cause because I live in Isan and every day I see the deprived lives of these poor farmers breaking their backs in the field for a pittance...when I contrast that the to life of luxury and privilege of the corrupt elite it makes me vomit...as a farang I'm obliged to keep out of it directly and to avoid discussing it with Thai people.

So be precise. Tell us what policies you would like to see such that poor farmers can do better? Look ahead, if you get a red led government what do you want see them do? Please don't say you want another village handout. If your village is the same as mine then you will know that was massively abused with most money going to pay off gambling debts at usurious interest rates. Not many new tractors were funded or vocational training fees paid.........

I repeat as one example the policy than we have done in my Country for solving the problem of farmers (50% in the 50's and now around 5%0

1- A minister is created for Town and Country planning

2- Important investments are done for supporting development of infrastructures (railways, highways, irrigation, industrial hubs, domestic airline subsidised)

3- Decentralisation of industries whenever possible with taxes incentives and hub policy for creating jobs throughout the territory: the aim is to stabilise the population throughout the Country and to avoid Bangkok suburbs to become gigantic

4- decentralisation of Administration and democracy with elected Governors and local assemblies for managing locally the developpement (better decisions and surveillance locally than when everything is done in Bangkok)

5- agriculture modernised through a wide policy (regrouping of farmers in cooperatives, subsidies until the Agriculture is at International standard, specific banking support). important investments like irrigation, researches.... under schemes developped with Academics (Agriculture Universities).

6- Until the Agriculture is reaching an International Standards rice, rubber... prices supported and subsidised. (like european and US farmers)

7. Education for all and quality guaranteed throughout the territory

8- Immediately a budget equivalent to Ministry of defence one is allocated for supporting this policy.

this is a frame for discussions, I may have forgotten some details

[barnsworth]

I repeat my question to all the Red supporters here; "What will the country look like after you have been able to canvas enough votes again to win elections?" Chavalit for PM, Chalerm swaps seats with Suthep????

Well, you are going to get Newin!! That is a done deal. Many in the Yellow camp are letting this go as they don't believe it. Thats because they are kept in the dark and the propaganda they are fed does not state this.

Meanwhile the CRES spew vile rhetoric on a scale not seen for decades and try to dray the old anti monarchy card into the debate. This is like the race card in the states and it is a disgusting tactic seen by all outside the narrow world of the PAD for what it is.

ASTV still spewing? TAN still at it? Nation still at it? When you can say either that these three are off air, or the red stations are back on..... Don't talk about fairness.... period

[dhrobertson]

The pro-government Yellows harp on about the thug-like nature of the Reds. If the Reds are indeed thugs, who created them? Are the PAD thugs? Why not? Is it because they never had time to become thugs? Is it because they got wanted they wanted within 9 days the last time they protested? The “thug” never came out in them.

The PAD benefited from a coup in 2006, and in 2008 they were able to persuade the courts to change the democratically elected government to an engineered one in just 9 days by besieging an airport. The Reds don’t want another coup and they don’t want the courts to engineer another government. That's why they are protesting! The Reds want fresh elections and they will remain on the streets until they achieve this goal.

Unlike the Yellows who don’t mind a coup or a rearrangement of parliamentary seats to favour them, the Reds just want fair elections where the MPs elected are representative of the people of the whole country. Why is this concept so difficult for the pro-government Yellows to understand?

Nobody would disagree with that.

Whereas Abhisit came to power entirely correctly, I do think he should go to the nation for a clear mandate.

But that's not the point. I want to know what policies the reds want to see implemented who ever wins the next election.

Why can nobody give me an answer.

Who knows, we might just get a consensus...

Still waiting

[sealy]

It seems to be useless discussing current issues with a red supporter.

They will always go back to a point in the past to blame someone else for the current happenings. They ignore anything bad that has ever been done by reds (and before them, Thaksin and his supporters), to the point that EVERYTHING these people did was actually good, in their opinion.

They will condemn anything that the current government does, and applaud anything the red protesters do, regardless of whether any of it is good or bad.

They believe that anyone that is even slightly critical of Thaksin or the red protestors is a Yellow, an elite or a government lackie, that wants the poor to stay poor, and the rich to get richer.

For a red supporter, there is no middle ground. It's either you support Thaksin and everything he stands for, or you are totally against all the poor of Thailand.

Why bother.

why should i support thaksin if he is wrong in some cases, assuming i am red for today?

you are very childish in your argument.

i can't be red or yellow as i am not a thai .

but, this much i know.

you do not deny others of their opinion and tell others what to choose.

people like you who use the internet to propagandise without reason and logic reminds me of what enistein once said:

for some people, einstein said , the skull and the spinal cord should be amply sufficient.

all else from such latter people are , in today's jargon, non-brainers.

[jcbangkok]

If the gov't and/or military goal was only to clear out the red mob, it is VERY foolish to believe they are incapable of doing this in a matter of hours. However, they are doing their best to avoid casualties of those ignorant poor folk whose minds have been brainwashed by the constant fuel of hatred and lies coming from their red leaders.

Kind of ironic they have convinced them to risk their lives largely for a man (once the richest in all Thailand) who doesn't have guts to even face the Thai criminal justice system over a 2-year sentence that would have surely been suspended if he had not fled and agreed to obey the law in the future. In fact, before the court verdict regarding his money the PM said he would forgive him if he expressed remorse.

And this is where it all goes wrong.

The Reds are not ignorant.

The Yellows are ignorant when they try to call the Reds "uneducated and ignorant".

The Reds are not "brainwashed", it has been since 2006 non stop brainwashing anti-Thaksin propaganda that has suckered Yellow people in. Anyone who believes the nonsense from the Yellow media and obvious biased Yellow posters on here are the ones who are getting "brainwashed".

You should read better before replying unless your goal is to distort. I will believe that is not the case since that would mean you know in your heart your beliefs cannot be supported.

Logic dictates it is ignorant for civilians to go up against the army when the armed forces out number them. Don't fight a war you cannot win, especially when there are NUMEROUS alternatives available to further your cause without going into a losing battle. Also, it is insane to risk your life for elections now that have been offered in 8-months especially when the current gov't is not harming you and has actually developed policy to help you in their short term in power during which your group has done everything to distract and sabotage this gov't. So, red supporters are not all ignorant but the ones I just described are clearly not informed (ignorant of the truth) or just plain thugs who crave violence.

Edited April 27, 2010 by jcbangkok

[whybother]

The pro-government Yellows harp on about the thug-like nature of the Reds. If the Reds are indeed thugs, who created them? Are the PAD thugs? Why not? Is it because they never had time to become thugs? Is it because they got wanted they wanted within 9 days the last time they protested? The "thug" never came out in them.

The PAD benefited from a coup in 2006, and in 2008 they were able to persuade the courts to change the democratically elected government to an engineered one in just 9 days by besieging an airport. The Reds don't want another coup and they don't want the courts to engineer another government. That's why they are protesting! The Reds want fresh elections and they will remain on the streets until they achieve this goal.

Unlike the Yellows who don't mind a coup or a rearrangement of parliamentary seats to favour them, the Reds just want fair elections where the MPs elected are representative of the people of the whole country. Why is this concept so difficult for the pro-government Yellows to understand?

Once again, the standard argument of a red supporter:

"The Yellows did it and I condemn them for doing it, and now the reds are doing it but it's OK because the Yellows did it."

And the reds don't want the MPs to be elected to be representative of the whole country, they want MPs to be elected to be representative of what the Reds want.

[kissdani]

What I don't understand is the many farangs who support the Reds. Don't they decent from the Thai Rak Thai (Thai Love Thai) group who really would be most happy to see a Thailand with no farangs present? What sense is there for a farang to support such as group? Their ultimate aim is to get rid of us. ???

That is stupid.

Nationalism or patriotism you will find in all political movements in Thailand.

That doesn't mean that farangs are hated. That is nonsense.

Guest are welcome, nobody hates you. Just don't start to talk BS about Thai people, that is welcomed nowhere.

[Jerrytheyoung]

My proposal is mine but I do know that General Chavalit has similar ways of thinking concerning the development of his Country.

[KKvampire]

I admired the government for restraint at the beginning of these red shirt anarchists, but now the mob sense weakness from authority and its spreading outside Bangkok . NOW ITS TIME TO CLEAR PUBLIC AREAS WHATEVER IT TAKES or

RIP Thailand

Edited April 27, 2010 by KKvampire

[RussellHantz]

The pro-government Yellows harp on about the thug-like nature of the Reds. If the Reds are indeed thugs, who created them? Are the PAD thugs? Why not? Is it because they never had time to become thugs? Is it because they got wanted they wanted within 9 days the last time they protested? The “thug” never came out in them.

The PAD benefited from a coup in 2006, and in 2008 they were able to persuade the courts to change the democratically elected government to an engineered one in just 9 days by besieging an airport. The Reds don’t want another coup and they don’t want the courts to engineer another government. That's why they are protesting! The Reds want fresh elections and they will remain on the streets until they achieve this goal.

Unlike the Yellows who don’t mind a coup or a rearrangement of parliamentary seats to favour them, the Reds just want fair elections where the MPs elected are representative of the people of the whole country. Why is this concept so difficult for the pro-government Yellows to understand?

Agree. Another interesting thing was Abhisit said that Somchai should resign when the yellow protests were taking place, however, when faced with a similar situation he refuses to budge. The PM has zero integrity.

[Koh_Falang]

I don't know how any westerner can actually support the red protestors with how they are acting now.

Red supporters condemn the government, the army, the elite and the yellows. There are some good reasons to condemn these groups for their actions in the past.

But you support the lawlessness of the reds.

You support them shutting down a city of 10 million people.

You support them searching individuals going about their daily lives.

You support them shutting down roads around the country.

You support them bringing down the economy which will affect all Thais, and especially the poorer ones, for years to come.

Is this the sort of country that you want to live in?

A country where a small minority can do anything that they want? I am not talking about the grass roots red supporters, the poor farmers, the factory workers, the construction workers.

I am talking about the thugs searching people, searching cars, blockading highways. If they can do this now, what will they be able to do if their leaders control the government, the police and the army?

Support the poor. Condemn the elite.

But don't support the thugs ruining the country.

Pretty easy really...I sympathize with the red cause because I live in Isan and every day I see the deprived lives of these poor farmers breaking their backs in the field for a pittance...when I contrast that the to life of luxury and privilege of the corrupt elite it makes me vomit...as a farang I'm obliged to keep out of it directly and to avoid discussing it with Thai people.

So your saying, your happy for innocent people to be killed and lives disrupted because there are poor people...

Its funny how a decent size chunk of people who are affected financially by these protests were sending the money they earnt back home...

Bit short sighted isnt it?

in this present context, define "innocent people " for me, an unknowing and not a know-all farang living in thailand in bangkok, not the poor north, for the last 30 years..

lets just say people in general, innocent or not, its still not a good thing...

Saying 'im poor' is no excuse...

[danc]

Another lively day in the forum...

So here is another one for the pot - until the middle classes become energised, politicised and so forth, this will go round and round ad infinitum - it is their laissez faire attitude to the whole system, whether it be corrupt cops to vote-buying, roughly translated as mai pen rai that has caused the democratic process to become stalled. By that I don't mean just standing and saying stop to either the yellows or the reds - it is too late for that - I mean pressing for social reform, political reform, reform of the unspoken subject now in the modern globalised age - they need to find their voice in the next generation or so, otherwise the whole process will either break down completely or will be in an endless cycle of power struggles, in which the whole hierarchy of Thai society is embroiled. They have to realise that they are part of the problem as well....

Just another opinion!

Edited April 27, 2010 by danc

[rabo]

If the gov't and/or military goal was only to clear out the red mob, it is VERY foolish to believe they are incapable of doing this in a matter of hours. However, they are doing their best to avoid casualties of those ignorant poor folk whose minds have been brainwashed by the constant fuel of hatred and lies coming from their red leaders.

Kind of ironic they have convinced them to risk their lives largely for a man (once the richest in all Thailand) who doesn't have guts to even face the Thai criminal justice system over a 2-year sentence that would have surely been suspended if he had not fled and agreed to obey the law in the future. In fact, before the court verdict regarding his money the PM said he would forgive him if he expressed remorse.

And this is where it all goes wrong.

The Reds are not ignorant.

The Yellows are ignorant when they try to call the Reds "uneducated and ignorant".

The Reds are not "brainwashed", it has been since 2006 non stop brainwashing anti-Thaksin propaganda that has suckered Yellow people in. Anyone who believes the nonsense from the Yellow media and obvious biased Yellow posters on here are the ones who are getting "brainwashed".

Red Brainwashing class in Udon-Thani in early February. The reporter who reported on the story also saw about 20 "black guards" and personally met Seah Daeng.

But, don't let the truth get in your way.

http://blogs.straitstimes.com/2010/2/11/in...ferent-thailand

[whybother]

It seems to be useless discussing current issues with a red supporter.

They will always go back to a point in the past to blame someone else for the current happenings. They ignore anything bad that has ever been done by reds (and before them, Thaksin and his supporters), to the point that EVERYTHING these people did was actually good, in their opinion.

They will condemn anything that the current government does, and applaud anything the red protesters do, regardless of whether any of it is good or bad.

They believe that anyone that is even slightly critical of Thaksin or the red protestors is a Yellow, an elite or a government lackie, that wants the poor to stay poor, and the rich to get richer.

For a red supporter, there is no middle ground. It's either you support Thaksin and everything he stands for, or you are totally against all the poor of Thailand.

Why bother.

why should i support thaksin if he is wrong in some cases, assuming i am red for today?

you are very childish in your argument.

i can't be red or yellow as i am not a thai .

but, this much i know.

you do not deny others of their opinion and tell others what to choose.

people like you who use the internet to propagandise without reason and logic reminds me of what enistein once said:

for some people, einstein said , the skull and the spinal cord should be amply sufficient.

all else from such latter people are , in today's jargon, non-brainers.

Did you actually read the post? Propaganda? Denying opinion and telling people what to choose?

All I'm asking for is some middle ground and for red supporters not to assume that critisism of something that Thaksin or a red protestor did does not make me Yellow and elite.

[midas]

The pro-government Yellows harp on about the thug-like nature of the Reds. If the Reds are indeed thugs, who created them? Are the PAD thugs? Why not? Is it because they never had time to become thugs? Is it because they got wanted they wanted within 9 days the last time they protested? The “thug” never came out in them.

The PAD benefited from a coup in 2006, and in 2008 they were able to persuade the courts to change the democratically elected government to an engineered one in just 9 days by besieging an airport. The Reds don’t want another coup and they don’t want the courts to engineer another government. That's why they are protesting! The Reds want fresh elections and they will remain on the streets until they achieve this goal.

Unlike the Yellows who don’t mind a coup or a rearrangement of parliamentary seats to favour them, the Reds just want fair elections where the MPs elected are representative of the people of the whole country. Why is this concept so difficult for the pro-government Yellows to understand?

Agree. Another interesting thing was Abhisit said that Somchai should resign when the yellow protests were taking place, however, when faced with a similar situation he refuses to budge. The PM has zero integrity.

yes indeed............see him and hear him do that here !

[dhrobertson]

I don't know how any westerner can actually support the red protestors with how they are acting now.

Red supporters condemn the government, the army, the elite and the yellows. There are some good reasons to condemn these groups for their actions in the past.

But you support the lawlessness of the reds.

You support them shutting down a city of 10 million people.

You support them searching individuals going about their daily lives.

You support them shutting down roads around the country.

You support them bringing down the economy which will affect all Thais, and especially the poorer ones, for years to come.

Is this the sort of country that you want to live in?

A country where a small minority can do anything that they want? I am not talking about the grass roots red supporters, the poor farmers, the factory workers, the construction workers.

I am talking about the thugs searching people, searching cars, blockading highways. If they can do this now, what will they be able to do if their leaders control the government, the police and the army?

Support the poor. Condemn the elite.

But don't support the thugs ruining the country.

Pretty easy really...I sympathize with the red cause because I live in Isan and every day I see the deprived lives of these poor farmers breaking their backs in the field for a pittance...when I contrast that the to life of luxury and privilege of the corrupt elite it makes me vomit...as a farang I'm obliged to keep out of it directly and to avoid discussing it with Thai people.

So be precise. Tell us what policies you would like to see such that poor farmers can do better? Look ahead, if you get a red led government what do you want see them do? Please don't say you want another village handout. If your village is the same as mine then you will know that was massively abused with most money going to pay off gambling debts at usurious interest rates. Not many new tractors were funded or vocational training fees paid.........

I repeat as one example the policy than we have done in my Country for solving the problem of farmers (50% in the 50's and now around 5%0

1- A minister is created for Town and Country planning

2- Important investments are done for supporting development of infrastructures (railways, highways, irrigation, industrial hubs, domestic airline subsidised)

3- Decentralisation of industries whenever possible with taxes incentives and hub policy for creating jobs throughout the territory: the aim is to stabilise the population throughout the Country and to avoid Bangkok suburbs to become gigantic

4- decentralisation of Administration and democracy with elected Governors and local assemblies for managing locally the developpement (better decisions and surveillance locally than when everything is done in Bangkok)

5- agriculture modernised through a wide policy (regrouping of farmers in cooperatives, subsidies until the Agriculture is at International standard, specific banking support). important investments like irrigation, researches.... under schemes developped with Academics (Agriculture Universities).

6- Until the Agriculture is reaching an International Standards rice, rubber... prices supported and subsidised. (like european and US farmers)

7. Education for all and quality guaranteed throughout the territory

8- Immediately a budget equivalent to Ministry of defence one is allocated for supporting this policy.

this is a frame for discussions, I may have forgotten some details

Excellent!

Are you French by chance? You must be from somewhere civilised!

Now, who is most likely to implement such things? The Democrats? the reds? Chart Thai Pattana?

As I've stated before, I think it will take two generations to sort things out. But it is possible.

I think it is most urgent to take action to try and make elections fair:-

1) No gerrymandering

2) Voting to be entirely confidential,

3) parties MUST publish manifestos

4) Voting buying to punished by severe prison term and life long ban from being an MP.

5) Get rid of the laughable requirement for MPs to have a degree (easily obtainable in Khao San Rd I suspect)

Response from reds? What do YOU want?

[bangkoklight]

The pro-government Yellows harp on about the thug-like nature of the Reds. If the Reds are indeed thugs, who created them? Are the PAD thugs? Why not? Is it because they never had time to become thugs? Is it because they got wanted they wanted within 9 days the last time they protested? The “thug” never came out in them.

The PAD benefited from a coup in 2006, and in 2008 they were able to persuade the courts to change the democratically elected government to an engineered one in just 9 days by besieging an airport. The Reds don’t want another coup and they don’t want the courts to engineer another government. That's why they are protesting! The Reds want fresh elections and they will remain on the streets until they achieve this goal.

Unlike the Yellows who don’t mind a coup or a rearrangement of parliamentary seats to favour them, the Reds just want fair elections where the MPs elected are representative of the people of the whole country. Why is this concept so difficult for the pro-government Yellows to understand?

Because the red shirts are using violence and terrorism to achieve their aims. The PAD was roundly criticized by everyone for their move at the airport. With that one action they lost most of their support and all credibility. The red shirt leaders haven't learned this lesson. The concept of elections isn't hard to understand. The means the red shirts are employing in order to achieve this are illegal and unacceptable. And because of this they too have no credibility.

Read again:

The pro-government Yellows harp on about the thug-like nature of the Reds. If the Reds are indeed thugs, who created them? Are the PAD thugs? Why not? Is it because they never had time to become thugs? Is it because they got wanted they wanted within 9 days the last time they protested? The “thug” never came out in them.

When a political group is up against double standards, does it not make you wonder why some members of that group become so-called thugs? If you were passionate about free and fair elections and the return of the People’s Constitution, would you sit down in a circle and sing songs? Come on!

And are the army thugs too? Why not? You cannot say they represent a democratically elected government. The army represent the remnants of a military coup and a constitution drawn up by the military!