Double Nationality Question

[lifedrainer]

O, gurus of thai immigrations, could you share your wisdom with me and perhaps advise me on what to do.

I am Belgian, aged 27. I was working for an international school but I didn't like it so I quit and got another job for a bilingual school in Bangkok.

I've been in Thailand for four years and I recently got the thai citizenship (my father is thai).

For my new job, I need a new passport, a new tourist visa (to be later transformed into a non-B + work permit and blablabla...).

By the time I get my new passport, I will have to go to the border twice to stamp for a 15 days visa.

I decided to reveal to my boss I had the thai citizenship and he seems willing to give me the same pay while hiring me as a thai.

What should I do with my belgian passport and its 15 days visa ?

At my embassy, they told me I could go to the immigration office and someone could write in my belgian passport :'using the thai nationality'.

Would I encounter any problems if I wanted to go to Europe (Belgium) later on ?

Do you have any knowledge with this matter ?

Thank you...

[lopburi3]

You should obtain a Thai passport - exit country on Belgium passport and return on Thai.

I have never head of using "Thai Nationality" being accepted by Immigration - if here on a foreign passport you have to meet those requirements (but can easily obtain one year extensions of stay).

[lifedrainer]

You should obtain a Thai passport - exit country on Belgium passport and return on Thai.

I have never head of using "Thai Nationality" being accepted by Immigration - if here on a foreign passport you have to meet those requirements (but can easily obtain one year extensions of stay).

Thank you for your quick reply...

I seemed weird to me too, I'll ask that embassy person again.

Will they let me stamp a 15 days extension twice until I get my new passport ? My old one has less than 6 months validity...

It takes so long to get the new passport -*- I'm afraid of the charge for overstay...

Edited April 30, 2010 by lifedrainer

[lopburi3]

Normally it would not be a problem having several 15 day stays in a row and expect there will not be an issue even with less than 6 month validity for Thailand but other country you need entry may not allow entry and in that case Thailand would not allow entry either and you would likely be arrested and face deportation - but then you are Thai and they can not do that so it would be fun and games.

Perhaps your Embassy is suggesting you surrender your old passport to Thailand, as in giving up foreign citizenship, and not say anything about the new one they plan to issue?

I expect no reader has personal experience but if anyone does it would be most welcome. Looks like a can of worms to me. Immigration Police are not noted for liking to deal with dual citizenship.

[TerryLH]

Get your Thai passport.

Leave Thailand on your foreign passport.

Enter Malaysia (or?) on your Thai passport.

Leave Malaysia, or wherever, on your Thai passport.

Enter Thailand on your Thai passport.

Renew your foreign passport with no time worries about the process. You won't need it again until you go somewhere that it will be more suitable to use than your Thai pp.

(LB3 usually tells you this can't be done at a land border. He didn't mention it this time, but I doubt if things have changed. I mention Malaysia because of low cost flights there.)

Don't surrender your passport to anyone but your embassy.

This should work for you with no unusual problems.

[lopburi3]

He has not mentioned having a Thai passport yet.

[TerryLH]

That's why I put getting one as the lead sentence.

He says he's got the citizenship thing straightened out, so getting the pp should be easy enough for him.

[Mario2008]

That's why I put getting one as the lead sentence.

He says he's got the citizenship thing straightened out, so getting the pp should be easy enough for him.

Only if he is on someones household registration. Without that and a Thai ID-card he can't get a passport in Thailand.

[TerryLH]

Point taken.

[aidenai]

O, gurus of thai immigrations, could you share your wisdom with me and perhaps advise me on what to do.

I am Belgian, aged 27. I was working for an international school but I didn't like it so I quit and got another job for a bilingual school in Bangkok.

Very interesting. Most international schools hire teachers from American or British countries only.

I've been in Thailand for four years and I recently got the thai citizenship (my father is thai).

Congratulations. Have some respect for your father and his country. As a teacher at an international school you should know what I mean.

For my new job, I need a new passport, a new tourist visa (to be later transformed into a non-B + work permit and blablabla...).

I've never heard of that requirement.

What should I do with my belgian passport and its 15 days visa ?

You wrote that you've worked for an International School. Working there you did a visa run by land every fifteen days?

Are you a Belgisch Patateke Trol?

Geeeeeezzzzzzzzz.

[lifedrainer]

@ Adenai: I was working as a house parent in the international school. But I could have taught French there. British international schools don't usually hire Americans *-*

Have some respect for your father and his country: I do... Why should you even mention it ? But I don't see how it relates to a teaching job in an international school.

The requirement you don't seem to know... well, erm I've needed a work permit ever since I've been working in Thailand with my Belgian citizenship.

I need a visa run now because my visa was rendered invalid when I gave back my work permit and now I need 15 days extensions until I get my renewed passport. Geeeeezzzz ? Does it sound so unfathomable ?

The Belgische Patateke seems to know what he's talking about... Have some respect for other nationalities...

@ others : For your info, I have the ID and the 'Tabien Baan' so I could get the thai passport.

@ Terry: Thank you for the info but why going out twice ?

Get your Thai passport.

Leave Thailand on your foreign passport.

Enter Malaysia (or?) on your Thai passport.

Isn't that enough ?

Leave Malaysia, or wherever, on your Thai passport.

Enter Thailand on your Thai passport.

[HaiSoh]

Why would you need a Thai Passport for your Job if you have a Thai ID card and your boss would hire you under a Thai contract as you stated ?

I decided to reveal to my boss I had the thai citizenship and he seems willing to give me the same pay while hiring me as a thai.

Back to your question "what to do with your Belgian Passport" nothing YET. Just make sure it does not expire.

Did you think about registering at the Belgian Embassy ? easy for passport renewal when necessary.

When you would travel to EU - you would exit on your Thai Passport and enter EU on your Belgian Passport AND

people in possesion of Dual Citizenship are adviced to present BOTH passports when travelling to avoid misunderstandings (not needing a visa)

as having double citizenship is legal in Belgium, as you probably know.

The Belgische Patateke seems to know what he's talking about... Have some respect for other nationalities...

@ others : For your info, I have the ID and the 'Tabien Baan' so I could get the thai passport.

Edited April 30, 2010 by HaiSoh

[samran]

Get your Thai passport.

Leave Thailand on your foreign passport.

Enter Malaysia (or?) on your Thai passport.

Leave Malaysia, or wherever, on your Thai passport.

Enter Thailand on your Thai passport.

That WONT work. It is impossible to do passport swaps at land borders. Trust me, I've tried it. Immigration officers of all countries bordering Thailand, as well as Thailand itself, will want to see the entry and exit stamps of the country you have just departed from, in the SAME passport. So, if you leave on the belgian passport, you'll be forced to enter the next country on it.

A quick question, where were you born? In Belgium or thailand (or somewhere else?).

You'll need to get your Thai passport, FLY out of Thailand (exit on Beligan passport), say to Singapore of KL, and then come back on your Thai passport.

If you were born overseas especially, this won't raise any eyebrows as Thai immigration won't expect you to have had a Thai exit stamp in that passport as there is no way you could have originally left Thailand (as you were never physically born there).

If you run into a visa officer who refuses to stamp you in on your thai passport, ask to speak to a superior and they will over ride the junior officer.

A border run is useless.

Hope I've made sense.

From then on, always depart and re-enter Thailand on the Thai passport

[TerryLH]

"@ Terry: Thank you for the info but why going out twice ?"

The 2nd time out is not relevant to this discussion, but was meant for when you decide to travel for leisure, or whatever. One time out of country is enough to deal with your issue.

"That WONT work. It is impossible to do passport swaps at land borders."

That's why I said...

"(LB3 usually tells you this can't be done at a land border. He didn't mention it this time, but I doubt if things have changed. I mention Malaysia because of low cost flights there.)"

"I need a visa run now because my visa was rendered invalid when I gave back my work permit and now I need 15 days extensions until I get my renewed passport. Geeeeezzzz ? Does it sound so unfathomable ?"

"@ others : For your info, I have the ID and the 'Tabien Baan' so I could get the thai passport."

"Does it sound so unfathomable ?"

A little bit, especially as how there appears to be an easier solution.

You'd probably be able to get a Thai pp faster than renewing your foreign one.

[chevyinasia]

lifedrainer,

Congratulations on obtaining your Thai nationality. I, also, have recently acquired my Thai ID. I haven't started the protracted process of getting a Thai passport, and you actually don't need one to live indefinitely in Thailand. You basically automatically qualify for a Non-Imm "O" Visa and unlimited extensions so long as you bring your Thai birth certificate, house registration (copy front and back cover, inside first page, and the page on which your name appears), and Thai ID to any consulate to obtain your Visa, and the same to the Immigration office when you need to extend. You'll still have to do your 90-days reporting and extend every year, but there's a lot less hassle. Yes, you can work on your "O" Visa, but with a Thai ID, you won't need a work permit.

Only if he is on someones household registration. Without that and a Thai ID-card he can't get a passport in Thailand.

For overseas born Thai who never had a Thai ID before, one has to be on the house registration before obtaining Thai nationality proper.

Edited May 1, 2010 by chevyinasia

[nakachalet]

NO, CAN'T DO....

using belg or usa or other passports to exit: at malaysian immig at the border, they will ask you why there is no thai immig stamp on your belg passport....?

using thai passport to exit: they will ask the same question--why no thai immig EXIT stamp....?

let's see.... if someone can figure out some other more creative ways to beat this merry go round.... with all due respect to all thaivisa friends....

@ Adenai: I was working as a house parent in the international school. But I could have taught French there. British international schools don't usually hire Americans *-*

Have some respect for your father and his country: I do... Why should you even mention it ? But I don't see how it relates to a teaching job in an international school.

The requirement you don't seem to know... well, erm I've needed a work permit ever since I've been working in Thailand with my Belgian citizenship.

I need a visa run now because my visa was rendered invalid when I gave back my work permit and now I need 15 days extensions until I get my renewed passport. Geeeeezzzz ? Does it sound so unfathomable ?

The Belgische Patateke seems to know what he's talking about... Have some respect for other nationalities...

@ others : For your info, I have the ID and the 'Tabien Baan' so I could get the thai passport.

@ Terry: Thank you for the info but why going out twice ?

Get your Thai passport.

Leave Thailand on your foreign passport.

Enter Malaysia (or?) on your Thai passport.

Isn't that enough ?

Leave Malaysia, or wherever, on your Thai passport.

Enter Thailand on your Thai passport.

[lopburi3]

Poster said Malaysia meaning an airport there. But the issue is if he even has a Thai passport (he has not chosen to answer that question for some reason).

If he can prove himself Thai a visit to Immigration should get a one year extension of stay (or until validity date of passport) and after new one issued the remainder would be stamped. But that is short term as he should get Thai passport and make entry on that to remove the foreigner reporting requirements and yearly extensions of stay/work permit rules.

[lifedrainer]

Thank you for all your replies

Did you think about registering at the Belgian Embassy ?

Done ^^

@ lopburi3

I still don't have the thai passport.

If your passport has less than 6 months validity, they don't wanna do anything with it, it's just a worthless piece of paper. So no extension, nothing.

@nakachalet

Maybe the answer is to go back to Belgium, make the thai passport over there (at the thai embassy) and enter with the thai passport without exit stamp !! Other than that, I fear exactly what you say. No exit stamp... I'm a ghost when I enter with an empty thai passport to Thailand. Asking to talk to a superior would help me ? I'd have to explain my dual citizenship ?

@chevyinasia Thanks, I love the info you've provided here. I'll do that probably next year since now I'm already (thanks to the nice officer at my new school) in the process of a Non-B + work permit. I definitely would love to have a Non-O visa soon. Is that what you have yourself ... and you work without work permit ?

@ all: I understand that for your trick I need to GET out... a border run won't help. The only fact that I mention the border run is to extend my stay here until I have my new passport and can Physically leave ( I need more than 6 months validity to be eligible for any visa). I get my passport on the 28th -*- so in the meantime I'll do 2 border runs (two 15 days extensions). Then I'll leave again... such a hassle, really

A quick question, where were you born? In Belgium or thailand (or somewhere else?).

In Belgium

You'll need to get your Thai passport, FLY out of Thailand (exit on Beligan passport), say to Singapore of KL, and then come back on your Thai passport.

If you were born overseas especially, this won't raise any eyebrows as Thai immigration won't expect you to have had a Thai exit stamp in that passport as there is no way you could have originally left Thailand (as you were never physically born there).

The problem is that they would see that the passport was made in Thailand (bangkok). Could I have it fly over to, say Singapore, and that would explain it having no stamps ? Is there a way to trick those guys ?

According to nakachalet, this won't work.

Edited May 1, 2010 by lifedrainer

[Mario2008]

You need 6 month validity of your passport to get a visa or to enter Thailand, not for an extension of stay in Thailand. Your extension of stay ould never be pass the validity of your passport, but once you have a new passport you get the rest of a 1 year extension for free.

[Arkady]

The advice from the Belgian Embassy is complete rubbish but then they are only supposed to be experts on Belgian nationality.

There are probably different ways you could approach this and still come out all right. As others have said I would be inclined to avoid leaving Thailand on a Thai passport with no entry stamp which would leave you as an overstayer on your Belgian passport and stuff up Immigration's computer. It seems better to leave on the Belgian passport and re-enter on a Thai passport and never use the Belgian passport in Thailand again after that. I also agree that you would probably do better to get the Thai passport issued at a Thai embassy abroad to avoid having to explain why a passport issued in Thailand has no Thai exit stamp.

The law neither specifically permits nor prohibits dual nationality. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs which issues Thai passports in Thailand and at embassies abroad interprets the law as not prohibiting dual nationality and freely issues Thai passports to Thais they know have anther nationality. On the other hand Immigration seems to have its own ideas and doesn't like the idea of Thais having dual nationality. They particularly don't like people entering on one passport and leaving on another, whether Thais or even foreigners with two foreign nationalities. See this thread www.thaivisa.com/forum/Immigration-Directive-Dual-Nationa-t360338.html . Make sure you don't let Immigration intimidate you into entering Thailand with your Belgian passport and try to avoid even showing it to them. If you have problems, insist on seeing the supervisor and explain politely that, even though you have only just got your Thai ID card and passport, you are Thai because your father is Thai and that you have a job here and you are now coming to Thailand to live your life as a Thai and don't plan to live in Belgium or use your Belgian nationality again.

Edited May 1, 2010 by Arkady

[TerryLH]

"According to nakachalet, this won't work."

It will work.

"I also agree that you would probably do better to get the Thai passport issued at a Thai embassy abroad to avoid having to explain why a passport issued in Thailand has no Thai exit stamp."

I think you're complicating a simple solution.

There are probably hundreds of posts in here telling you to show your second passport if there is a question. I don't recall anyone saying they had a problem after that.

Why would anyone pay money for a visa or extension and have to report their address every 90 days if they don'e have to?

[lifedrainer]

Thank you all for your kind replies.

I'll update you with what happens to me ^^

[tombkk]

Poster said Malaysia meaning an airport there. But the issue is if he even has a Thai passport (he has not chosen to answer that question for some reason).

If he can prove himself Thai a visit to Immigration should get a one year extension of stay (or until validity date of passport) and after new one issued the remainder would be stamped. But that is short term as he should get Thai passport and make entry on that to remove the foreigner reporting requirements and yearly extensions of stay/work permit rules.

He will get an extension of stay in his Belgian passport when he can prove that he is Thai? Are you sure about that? Won't they ask him to identify himself as Thai rather than using his foreign passport?

For my Thai friends, getting a passport is a matter of a few days, so this should not be an obstacle.

I agree that he should leave Thailand by air on his Belgian passport (to get the Immigration computer satisfied), but at the same time, he should ask for an exit stamp and - important! - get the TM Card, which he will need for re-entry. Of course, this will work only if the Thai authorities know about this dual nationality. Do they?

[Maestro]

...He will get an extension of stay in his Belgian passport when he can prove that he is Thai? ...

Yes, paragraph 2.29 of Police Order 777/2551, but in view of a recent directive issued by the Immigration Bureau -- see here -- it is advisable not go that route.

--

Maestro

[tombkk]

...He will get an extension of stay in his Belgian passport when he can prove that he is Thai? ...

Yes, paragraph 2.29 of Police Order 777/2551, but in view of a recent directive issued by the Immigration Bureau -- see here -- it is advisable not go that route.

--

Maestro

I thought so, thank you for clarifying.

There are some conditions under which an individual can have dual nationality though. Hence my question whether the Thai authorities are aware of this.

[lopburi3]

Immigration are Police and always take a very restricted view of dual citizenship but have no basis for action in law so for the most past have to back down if challenged. But; due mostly to the obvious problems this creates in the South, there are many who wish to tighten (and/or eliminate). I suspect a court of law would not back up the police at this juncture. But there may be a new set of rules if the constitution is re-written in the next few months.

[tombkk]

Immigration are Police and always take a very restricted view of dual citizenship but have no basis for action in law so for the most past have to back down if challenged. [...]

Just came across this:

http://imm2.go.th/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=86

Based on this, I would now suggest that the OP shows his Belgian passport to the office that issued the Thai ID, so that they stamp it out and take the TM card. This may require coordination with (and another run to) Immigration. When he leaves the country, he will leave it as a Thai citizen.

[Mario2008]

When entering on a foreign passport, you must leave on that foreign passport. Only by next re-entering on the Thai passport you don't need a visa any more.

Immigration does not have the possibility to change the record of the passport you entered on. Leaving on the foreign passport and re-entering on the Thai passport is the only option.

[Arkady]

...He will get an extension of stay in his Belgian passport when he can prove that he is Thai? ...

Yes, paragraph 2.29 of Police Order 777/2551, but in view of a recent directive issued by the Immigration Bureau -- see here -- it is advisable not go that route.

--

Maestro

I thought so, thank you for clarifying.

There are some conditions under which an individual can have dual nationality though. Hence my question whether the Thai authorities are aware of this.

What are the conditions under which a Thai can have dual nationality?

[chevyinasia]

What are the conditions under which a Thai can have dual nationality?

Your question presupposes the individual already has Thai nationality. If the individual qualifies for (and acquires) another nationality, by birth or by naturalization, and that country does not disallow multiple nationality, then a Thai can have multiple nationality so long as other conditions are met that would not cause the individual to lose Thai nationality, i.e., serving in a foreign military.

This is pretty much true of any country that doesn't disallow multiple nationality.

A Thai born overseas can acquire Thai nationality as long as either parent was a Thai national. It's much easier when the mother is Thai because, well, it's a lot easier to write in a fake name for the father than for the mother on a birth certificate.

@tombkk: The relevant authorities (Immigration Bureau and attached officers, Amphur office for issuing House Registrations, and Municipal Office for issuing Thai ID cards) seem to be pretty well aware.