Heard It Thru The Grapevine

[tutsiwarrior]

wanted to ask the women here about the subject and how it would apply to a thai woman...the loss of face implication is clear, hearing about your lover's betrayal second hand is in the western literature...the scene with Liv Ullman on the telephone to her friend in Bergman's Scenes from a Marriage comes to mind; there was never anything more painful to watch in cinema than that...the whole world knows except for the betrayed...

I just downloaded Heard it thru the Grapevine by Creedence Clearwater and it occurred to me that every version of this song is heavy with foreboding even with the original by Martha and the Vandellas in 1963/4 and it got me to thinking...I messed up once that way with my thai wife and she went mental...the details are mundane (it was with a prostitute) but suffice to say that it did permanent damage...

but we've been married now for 10 years as I've cleaned up my act...don't ever want her to be hurt like that again...but there is no way that I can convince her of my penitence and things will just continue as they are with distrust...

comments?

Edited May 2, 2010 by tutsiwarrior

[sbk]

Thats a tough one tutsi. The niggling doubt is always there, surely she feels insecure as well.

You don't say how long its been but I have to say, that for me anyway, trust, once betrayed, takes alot of time and some seriously meant repentance to be regained.

[tutsiwarrior]

the actual shit came down about 8 years ago in Abu Dhabi...a neighbor who I thought was my friend saw me pulling away from the compound early one morning with another woman in the car and then blabbed to whoever would listen and there were lots...the worse bit was that my wife got the news from another thai lady that she didn't like who, of course, was gloating...all this was about a year after the event and I had forgotten about it...

yeah...betrayal of any kind is hard to endure and the previous relationship is always compromised...

so, would you never trust your husband again after his indiscretion regardless of relentless supplications and obvious improvement in behavior?

I haveta admit that there was another incident but it was foretold...the wife was with me in HCMC in Vietnam and wanted to go home...I said don't leave me here alone as I don't think that I'll be able to control meself...she was desperate to go home and said go ahead but don't let it get outta hand...well, it did; this was back in 2006 and nothing has happened since then...fortunately old age, dysfunction and jobs in saudi without liquor and women have intervened...

I'm in Hanoi now and the next street over from my hotel has got 4 brothels that are well known to the local expat community...I took a walk over to check it out but didn't partake; just wasn't interested...good sign?

[sbk]

I am not Thai, and i am not your wife, but for me, a simple shag would be less of a betrayal than an emotional lie.

I don't take BS well, I don't take lies well. An honest confession of a one time indiscretion with sincere apologies would suffice me after a while, I have to admit. But then, perhaps I am weird. Emotional betrayal is far more damaging to me.

[tutsiwarrior]

people's intentions are hard to judge but there should not be any difficulty when it's yer spouse that yer dealing with...I've cleaned up quite a bit but our marriage doesn't seem to have improved...there are other factors, she's gone thru menopause and my diabetes is playing hel_l with libido and causing circulation difficulties that generate dysfunction problems...it would take a lot to generate any short time/pretty girls interest these days...when I went to recon the brothels the next street over yesterday I wasn't even tooled up with condoms; just went for a stroll/exercise...

I don't care about the sex that much and that's a relief to us both...but one always wants love and respect in a marriage and I've been trying hard to recover what was lost...I feel that the circumstances surrounding my fall from grace are cogent in this regard...if it was just 'oh? had it off with a whore have you? did you enjoy yerself?' things would be much more manageable...

[IanForbes]

When I was 18 I learned a valuable lesson the hard way. From that day onward I swore never to lie, cheat or steal again. I've kept my word. Some people can't handle the truth and sometimes it's better to say nothing than tell the truth, but I never lie. Once you lose someone's trust it is impossible to ever get it back completely. And, every lie takes 10 more just to back up the first one. If you break a law once then it's the start of a slippery slope to destruction. You WILL eventually get caught and the consequences CAN change your life forever. For me, I was lucky, but I was smart enough to realize my lucky break. From that day forward I wouldn't change a single thing in my interesting life. I may not have always done everything right, but I've never done anything wrong, either. And, there IS a difference.

[sbk]

Yes I agree Ian.

Dishonesty is a killer. However, sins of omission are equally bad and, IMO, another form of dishonesty.

Had a chat with a friend about this last night and she listed the times when a simple shag would not be acceptable, and I agreed. Pregnant wife, wife has just given birth, nope shagging some bird because your wife is exhausted and in pain is not acceptable. Serial cheating, even if meaningless just goes to show that you don't care about anyone but yourself.

That said, usually someone cheats because there are problems in the relationship. It takes two people to make a relationship and two people to break it. Very rarely are there completely innocent parties (unless you married a serial cheater but thats not what I am talking about here, I am talking about two normal people in a relationship that is breaking down) and if someone is honest enough to look at themselves they will realize they played just as much a part in the failure of the relationship as the other person.

That said, tutsi, your wife is holding a grudge that is killing your marriage. Certainly you should not have cheated. But, if she can't get past this then your marriage will never be alright. If possible, I would suggest marriage counselling. I realize your wife is a country girl but she's also got sense. She must know how damaging this is to both herself and her marriage.

You both need to decide, can you put this behind you and start fresh? She needs to have a serious think about that. Can you get her to do it? Difficult, but certainly worth the effort. Just don't be too surprised if her decision is that no, she can't put it behind her.

[tutsiwarrior]

Yes I agree Ian.

Dishonesty is a killer. However, sins of omission are equally bad and, IMO, another form of dishonesty.

Had a chat with a friend about this last night and she listed the times when a simple shag would not be acceptable, and I agreed. Pregnant wife, wife has just given birth, nope shagging some bird because your wife is exhausted and in pain is not acceptable. Serial cheating, even if meaningless just goes to show that you don't care about anyone but yourself.

That said, usually someone cheats because there are problems in the relationship. It takes two people to make a relationship and two people to break it. Very rarely are there completely innocent parties (unless you married a serial cheater but thats not what I am talking about here, I am talking about two normal people in a relationship that is breaking down) and if someone is honest enough to look at themselves they will realize they played just as much a part in the failure of the relationship as the other person.

That said, tutsi, your wife is holding a grudge that is killing your marriage. Certainly you should not have cheated. But, if she can't get past this then your marriage will never be alright. If possible, I would suggest marriage counselling. I realize your wife is a country girl but she's also got sense. She must know how damaging this is to both herself and her marriage.

You both need to decide, can you put this behind you and start fresh? She needs to have a serious think about that. Can you get her to do it? Difficult, but certainly worth the effort. Just don't be too surprised if her decision is that no, she can't put it behind her.

actually, since I've recently started another assignment and we now communicate on the phone things have improved...except for when I told her that there would be a delay to the monthly transfer due to the holidays then she got abusive...I called her this evening and she got the money and sounded OK; the kids are starting school soon and she needs extra cash for the associated expenses...we outfit all the school aged kids in the family...

this is about the first time when there's been available women around and I've been away from home and I haven't had any interest other than curiosity about brothels in the neighborhood...looks like I've finally learned my lesson. Maybe things wouldn't have been so bad except for the 'heard it thru the grapevine' aspect of the incident 8 years ago that heightened the sense of betrayal...

[jayinoz]

For most it is the start of the end- you will really need to perform some real large act of Nam Jai (Generosity from your heart) to make up for this one. As Nam Jai is the corner stone of the Thai value system, whilst independant is the Farang way. A Farang lady is more likely to forgive and forget than a Thai for this act. You must pay your dues with an extreme act of selflessness and generousity to show her how much you care. Do not make the gift conditional to anything- simply say you are sorry and it will never happen again in a note with the LARGE gift. Or this will fester in her till one day she blows... IMO.

A gift like a car for example...

Or for her parents...

I think most Thais would agree that this act will recover some face and show he really does care. Plus he is very sorry.

Chok Dee.

[camerata]

I said don't leave me here alone as I don't think that I'll be able to control meself...she was desperate to go home and said go ahead but don't let it get outta hand...well, it did;

I think what you said (and this was just 4 years ago) here would just confirm her existing distrust of you. But her answer says she's pretty much resigned to it. It would be hard to get back to square one after that, I'm afraid.

[barky]

It is my experience and my strong belief that in these situations it will NEVER be the same again!

If I were you (and I know it's far too late) I would never have married her. Not because she did anything wrong and not really because YOU f*cked up. Its because it will always "be there". This will at some time or other continue to raise it's ugly little head.

And, I think it's fairly safe to say that women have a far harder time forgiving and forgetting than men do. That's just the way it is/was/will be.

What can you do about it now? There are a number of possibilities.

You could just ask her to agree get over it and never refer to it again. If you've said sorry and if you have subsequently mended your ways she should have no problem with this request if she is a reasonable person who wants a happy married life with you.

You could just ignore it and keep your mouth shut and head down whenever it comes up.

You could divorce her.

But, from the moment you were caught it was never ever gonna be the same. And, it will take a very extraordinary woman to really forgive and forget the incident and put it all behind and move on positively.

[elcent]

I am not Thai, and i am not your wife, but for me, a simple shag would be less of a betrayal than an emotional lie.

I don't take BS well, I don't take lies well. An honest confession of a one time indiscretion with sincere apologies would suffice me after a while, I have to admit. But then, perhaps I am weird. Emotional betrayal is far more damaging to me.

men - women have different psychological settings.

A woman commits betrayal by heart, a man by his brain between his legs.

[Lumumba]

They never forgive or forget.They just hang around till the dot their is and cross all their ts, then your arse is toast.

They know what you treasure the most or what want desperately, thats where they start.

it might take years or decades.

I was never caught red handed, just that my phone bills read I was in Hua hin while my log book read Samui. I am not like the kinda guy you ll see in HH, not at least for the 2 decades, but the Thaichinese' girl was exceptionally once in a lifetime woman experience.J W. Marr... accomodation, golf lesson, unforgettable all night shagging waxed punana, goose liver/ bubblies, Hilton and champagne at nights. ......She was paying and loves to drink, My friends said , it would take moron not to do same.

When it got to your wife has to go, or rather you must/are coming with me, leave the house, cars and whatever, I ll give half million USD for you losses. That was when i came to my senses, and did a double take.

She does not have all the story,just the phone bill giveaway, I have used only prepaid ever since.But she said she would never ever get over it. we still have to pay for the house and the money I generate.

[samuibeachcomber]

Agree with barky "its never the same again" but jayinoz makes a good suggestion,nam jai is a good way to go and might work.Being separated from youe loved one for long periods of time.Abstinence makes the heart grow fonder,playing with yourself is the best option when temptation draws near.

[Lumumba]

You know all those family members of her's that you dont see eye to eye with, the ones that will borrow the car put 3000kms on it, and when they visit, leave you with pages of phone bill, they will latch on to your mistake, and make sure you pay heavily.

Well, I banned many from stopping by, I refused to be bashed under my roof by anyone while probably toked on my liquor.

I wish you the best of luck, but since you mentioned diabetes and some dysfunction, it will be a rough one. Make sure you will not be the one to wash the soiled bed spread of other man's bodily fluid.

You will need luck, lots of it, if she never forgives you.

[sbk]

I have to be honest, guys. Your take on what women think is a man's opinion on what women think.

Women are all individuals and for some, a shag, while bad, is livable and for others its a betrayal too much to bear. I think some women can forgive and let it go and others cannot. Pigeonholing all women into a set behavior is naive at best.

Like I said, a simple shag with no meaning would be painful, it would hurt. But I could probably get over it. Emotional betrayal is something else entirely and that would be the end of the marriage. Perhaps tutsi's wife feels that, we don't know. But if he doesn't sit down and talk things out and if they can't both agree to put it behind him they both have years of unhappiness to look forward to.

If you guys can't figure out that this utterly devastated her, then maybe you need to re-evaluate your opinions since its pretty dam_n obvious to me its not about being vindictive.

[F1fanatic]

But we're in Thailand.....

Give her lots of money (and preferably gold too) and as long as she has saved 'face' with her friends and family - and thinks she won't find anyone better or, get enough from a divorce, she'll stay.

She'll make hay making you suffer (as long as she thinks she can get away with it), but she'll stay.

She will know only too well how so many women here will do anything to 'get' a farang. She's been there.

[sbk]

And all 30 million Thai women are the same. Yup. absolutely. Just like all Western women are the same too. I, for one, refuse to submit to nasty generalizations since most of the Thai women I know are not like that at all. Guess how you choose to look at things depends on your experiences.

[F1fanatic]

And all 30 million Thai women are the same. Yup. absolutely. Just like all Western women are the same too. I, for one, refuse to submit to nasty generalizations since most of the Thai women I know are not like that at all. Guess how you choose to look at things depends on your experiences.

V true.

Living in Phuket I'm a bit jaded....

I keep apologising by saying that I know 3-4 women (even here on Phuket!) that are not that way at all. They are lovely and not even remotely interested in farang men.

Edited May 10, 2010 by F1fanatic

[tutsiwarrior]

I have to be honest, guys. Your take on what women think is a man's opinion on what women think.

Women are all individuals and for some, a shag, while bad, is livable and for others its a betrayal too much to bear. I think some women can forgive and let it go and others cannot. Pigeonholing all women into a set behavior is naive at best.

Like I said, a simple shag with no meaning would be painful, it would hurt. But I could probably get over it. Emotional betrayal is something else entirely and that would be the end of the marriage. Perhaps tutsi's wife feels that, we don't know. But if he doesn't sit down and talk things out and if they can't both agree to put it behind him they both have years of unhappiness to look forward to.

If you guys can't figure out that this utterly devastated her, then maybe you need to re-evaluate your opinions since its pretty dam_n obvious to me its not about being vindictive.

all it was was a simple drunken shag with a prostitute but gettin' the news second hand a year later from some one she didn't like gave an added dimension...

btw, the wife is very asian in that she doesn't sit down and talk about anything that's bothering her...she lost face big time given the circumstances and that's what I'm dealing with...I don't think that she cares about the sex that much...

[fletchsmile]

I have to be honest, guys. Your take on what women think is a man's opinion on what women think.

Women are all individuals and for some, a shag, while bad, is livable and for others its a betrayal too much to bear. I think some women can forgive and let it go and others cannot. Pigeonholing all women into a set behavior is naive at best.

Like I said, a simple shag with no meaning would be painful, it would hurt. But I could probably get over it. Emotional betrayal is something else entirely and that would be the end of the marriage. Perhaps tutsi's wife feels that, we don't know. But if he doesn't sit down and talk things out and if they can't both agree to put it behind him they both have years of unhappiness to look forward to.

If you guys can't figure out that this utterly devastated her, then maybe you need to re-evaluate your opinions since its pretty dam_n obvious to me its not about being vindictive.

all it was was a simple drunken shag with a prostitute but gettin' the news second hand a year later from some one she didn't like gave an added dimension...

btw, the wife is very asian in that she doesn't sit down and talk about anything that's bothering her...she lost face big time given the circumstances and that's what I'm dealing with...I don't think that she cares about the sex that much...

SBK raises some good points on women being individuals. I would add though hers are a western woman's views on what a Thai woman might think.

I think you're actually closer to the mark yourself Tutsi, in that the main issue could well be face. As we know many Thai women tolerate their husbands going for massages or coffee shops and as long as it is not rubbed in their face they seem to fare better than you are doing. Western women are less likely to tolerate this. Additionally many Thai women tolerate their husbands having a mia noi, again as long as she does not openly lose face. (A fair few Thais BTW don't tolerate it, and I've rarely met a western woman who does). So the sex alone is clearly not the only issue.

As you mention, many Thai's do not like to open up on feelings and have frank discussions. Actually discussing it could be viewed as simply reminding her of her loss of face. I'm not sure how her distrust manifests itself or how the subject comes up. In many ways one answer could be to never mention it. Apologise once and then never mention it again unless she does. If she does mention it, never argue back with things she has done wrong, and humbly apologise letting her know if you could turn back the clock you would. Time can heal to an extent.

You then have to rebuild trust. Something like Stephen Covey's book "Speed of Trust" has some very interesting perspectives on building trust. A great book, but doesn't necessarily cover your cultural aspects.

A western guy who has been thru this and come out the other side would be useful - perhaps more so than a western woman. A very close Thai female friend's input could also be invaluable. You'd probably still have to talk very subtley and hypothetically about a friend of yours who asked your advice, as if your wife found out you'd be discussing your indiscretions with another person, especially a Thai woman, you've added more fuel to the face fire.

Not sure if you have children or not, but if you do, then throw yourself into building even stronger bonds with them and demonstrate what a wonderful caring dad you are. Any decent woman will respect the father of her children if he is devoted to them. Demonstrating love and trust to people she really cares about could be very powerful. Also consider extending this love and trust to her mother and possibly other very close family she cares about. For many Thai girls their mother is an extremely important relationship. (BTW Beware being milked by other hangers on, but very close family is worth it, and as someone above mentioned shows naam jai)

Observations I've made on Thais doing something wrong and it being brought out in the open, they will often deny, deny, deny, lie and make up even the most ridiculous excuses. Funnily enough this seems to be better tolerated sometimes than admitting the truth which actually crystallises the loss of face. I guess the theory is if you never admit then there's the idea that they haven't had their noses rubbed in it, and it softens the loss of face. Also often the person who points out a lie or a wrong doing seems to be looked at in a worse light than the liar or wrongdoer. I suspect many a Thai man in your situation would never have admitted his indiscretion, and would simply have blamed the gossip that told your wife, telling their wife this particular gossip is just bitter and twisted, always spreading rumours, jealous of her, perhaps her own husband had an affair etc etc. Not necessarily all Thai men, but...

Edited May 10, 2010 by fletchsmile