Is Thaivisa Female-friendly?

[bonobo]

Bonobo, I tried to write a post slagging you off, but I couldn't go further than the first line.

But maybe this will do:

I actually witnessed your moderation actions in some threads, and I thought you were a feminist woman.

Maybe other posters also don't know that you are male and therefore complain about their posts being deleted by "female mods"?

OK, point taken!  

I haven't seen you receive such a noble compliment in quite a while, but you are certainly deserving!

I would also comment that Bonobo has been one of the most active straight male mods in keeping homophobic comments off the board (the rest of the guys are pretty good, too, but Bonobo goes the extra mile!).

I kind of liked it, too!  It certainly elicited a laugh from me.  

[tgw]

Most men want to "slag off women?" I just don't see it. I see some men wanting to do so, but most men I know rather want to be on a woman or women's good side. We rather like women. We like our sisters, our mothers, our daughters, our wives, our girlfriends.

I wrote "most men want to be able to freely slag off women"

My point is about free speech, not about slagging women off.

I believe they want to be able to speak rudely (=manly?? for some) about anything they want to praise, criticize, slag off...

I should have expressed that point better.

English is my third language, and I sometimes don't put things properly in sentences.

What I want to say is that posters (90% men) probably want to be able to use what they regard as being "their language".

And then it happens that many of these posters prefer asian women, and had negative experiences with western women, and they write about that and their feelings in an abusive manner.

And don't interpret my statement as being in favor of women being slagged off, I only tried to explain the offending poster's view of the issue.

But I really do think a polite forum is a biased situation.

[somtampet]

why should western women be worried? I never read anything here than bothers me personally. Why would it, none of the people posting their drivel are anyone I would have any involvement in my life. I don't need to take their nonsense & thats why they dislike me so. The fact that I also have some control over content on this website really get their goat too. I moderate their comments purely because it annoys them & prevents their little pals from carrying on with it leaving the forum free for all the majority, normal posters.

Suggest you get busy thaibeachlover on finding those other forums.

Boo, I don't think that was the smartest thing to say at that time. Nonetheless, I too get 'emotionally entangled' from time to time. 'Tis a human trait.

lost for words on that one,just very angry,but hey i am just a man

[tgw]

And then it happens that many of these posters prefer asian women, and had negative experiences with western women, and they write about that and their feelings in an abusive manner.

But this thread is not solely about Western women.  And if what you write above is true, then why so much abuse towards Thai women?

I don't remember seeing so much abuse against Thai women here.

In what way are Thai women usually slagged off in the forum?

[Boo]

well I can moderate their comments & & annoys them or I can ask a male mod to do it but why should I shirk my moderating duties just cause the offending poster might not like it. Try not to let your anger consume you.

[Ijustwannateach]

At the risk of inflaming an already overheated thread, I would like to add here that I feel it is the *tolerance* of the lady mods that has led to the prevalence of woman-bashing posts on Thaivisa.

For example, I wouldn't choose to allow the use of the word 'feminazi.' It is solely derogatory, and a bigot's tactic to attempt to force women to make a defense- much the same as the old 'how long have you been beating your wife?' An idiot conservative accuses a woman of being a 'feminazi'- what choice does she have? Deny it, or ignore it? It is not better than any other racist or bigoted word for a minority- I would lump it in with the same vocabulary used to abuse blacks and gays. And in the end, it simply indicates in the user a thoughtless fear of inadequacy in the face of the growing independence and power of women as a group.

And yet, it is the type of sad poster who uses this word who grumbles about the lack of 'freedom' and 'double standards' on TV.

Of course, another refuge of these sad posters is the whole idea of 'PC,' which is simply another form of straw-man complaint against the loss of the PRESUMPTION of status and hierarchy by straight (mostly white) men in the past (they didn't always really have it, but they could always feel they were *entitled* to it). It's really only another step away from the types who would've complained when their presumed 'right' to lynch black people, beat women, and persecute gays was finally shot down. Of course, it never occurs to them that they, in fact, have never actually arguably been a persecuted minority of any type in the western world- they are now being DISCRIMINATED against since these bashing 'rights' are being further curtailed, even if only linguistically! I suppose it's inevitable because most of these antisocial behaviours were only put under scrutiny and actively repressed in the last 40-50 years or so (if not more recently), and there are still many children who are the products of these poisonous worldviews reaching middle age.

In response to complaints that some women might, for instance, make a complaint about 'smelly' men- I think anything that both men and women are capable of becoming without questioning their right to power through gender or race is fair game. If you don't like smelly women, well, I hear you- I'm not really fond of smelly ANY type of person. On the other hand, complaints about women being 'b*tches' is a definitely gendered and status-reducing claim in one direction- men above women- and a complaint that women are, by being women, rising above what the bigot perceives as their station.

Considering the wonderful Thai and foreign women and men I know here, *any* silly generalisation bashing *any* of them says much more about the person speaking than the reality. This thread has certainly 'outed' some people in very illuminating ways, and I would argue the outcome should be LESS tolerance of misogynistic speech.

[somtampet]

well I can moderate their comments & & annoys them or I can ask a male mod to do it but why should I shirk my moderating duties just cause the offending poster might not like it. Try not to let your anger consume you.

I will do my very best Boo and always remember your power line

[bonobo]

And then it happens that many of these posters prefer asian women, and had negative experiences with western women, and they write about that and their feelings in an abusive manner.

But this thread is not solely about Western women.  And if what you write above is true, then why so much abuse towards Thai women?

I don't remember seeing so much abuse against Thai women here.

In what way are Thai women usually slagged off in the forum?

Are you serious?  You haven't read any of the vitriol which spouts unceasingly from some posters?  About Thai women being incapable of love, if all being scam artists, of taking men for a ride, of all having Thai boyfriends while they go out with Western men (to fleece them, of course), and so on and so on?

[cmsally]

Personally, I would like to see a truce called of a few minutes and let the guys say whatever they want to without moderation. I think it would be fascinating. The poor guys are getting really wound up here and they really need to let off some steam.

Surely a bit of freedom of speech never hurt anyone.

[bonobo]

At the risk of inflaming an already overheated thread, I would like to add here that I feel it is the *tolerance* of the lady mods that has led to the prevalence of woman-bashing posts on Thaivisa.

For example, I wouldn't choose to allow the use of the word 'feminazi.' It is solely derogatory, and a bigot's tactic to attempt to force women to make a defense- much the same as the old 'how long have you been beating your wife?' An idiot conservative accuses a woman of being a 'feminazi'- what choice does she have? Deny it, or ignore it? It is not better than any other racist or bigoted word for a minority- I would lump it in with the same vocabulary used to abuse blacks and gays. And in the end, it simply indicates in the user a thoughtless fear of inadequacy in the face of the growing independence and power of women as a group.

And yet, it is the type of sad poster who uses this word who grumbles about the lack of 'freedom' and 'double standards' on TV.

Of course, another refuge of these sad posters is the whole idea of 'PC,' which is simply another form of straw-man complaint against the loss of the PRESUMPTION of status and hierarchy by straight (mostly white) men in the past (they didn't always really have it, but they could always feel they were *entitled* to it). It's really only another step away from the types who would've complained when their presumed 'right' to lynch black people, beat women, and persecute gays was finally shot down. Of course, it never occurs to them that they, in fact, have never actually arguably been a persecuted minority of any type in the western world- they are now being DISCRIMINATED against since these bashing 'rights' are being further curtailed, even if only linguistically! I suppose it's inevitable because most of these antisocial behaviours were only put under scrutiny and actively repressed in the last 40-50 years or so (if not more recently), and there are still many children who are the products of these poisonous worldviews reaching middle age.

In response to complaints that some women might, for instance, make a complaint about 'smelly' men- I think anything that both men and women are capable of becoming without questioning their right to power through gender or race is fair game. If you don't like smelly women, well, I hear you- I'm not really fond of smelly ANY type of person. On the other hand, complaints about women being 'b*tches' is a definitely gendered and status-reducing claim in one direction- men above women- and a complaint that women are, by being women, rising above what the bigot perceives as their station.

Considering the wonderful Thai and foreign women and men I know here, *any* silly generalisation bashing *any* of them says much more about the person speaking than the reality. This thread has certainly 'outed' some people in very illuminating ways, and I would argue the outcome should be LESS tolerance of misogynistic speech.

Quite an erudite post.  Thanks for bringing all of this back into focus.

[tgw]

And then it happens that many of these posters prefer asian women, and had negative experiences with western women, and they write about that and their feelings in an abusive manner.

But this thread is not solely about Western women.  And if what you write above is true, then why so much abuse towards Thai women?

I don't remember seeing so much abuse against Thai women here.

In what way are Thai women usually slagged off in the forum?

Are you serious?  You haven't read any of the vitriol which spouts unceasingly from some posters?  About Thai women being incapable of love, if all being scam artists, of taking men for a ride, of all having Thai boyfriends while they go out with Western men (to fleece them, of course), and so on and so on?

I must say I barely read these posts, and when I do, I naturally tend to see only the particular situation.

I can never be brought to think such statements apply to a whole population.

Indeniably, many men have suffered in these terrible situations, indeniably *some* Thai women are incapable of love (yet I don't know if Thais are more likely than others), *some* are scam artists and indeniably Thais are more likely to be scam artists than Swiss women, *some* keep their Thai boyfriends when fleecing western men, yes.

NEVER EVER I believe these things to apply to all Thai women. How could I?

They are mostly wonderful people, and the farang unfortunately often gets into the fangs of women whose sensibility and sense of honor has been killed over years of bar work...

It should be pretty obvious to anybody that these women are in no way representative of the Thai women in general?

[elkangorito]

On a daily basis, I read posts which deride Thai women as being money-hungry scam artists, of being stupid, of being unable to love, and so on. I read posts which deride Western women as being sexless harpies who hate men, take everything in a divorce, are "fat, disgusting slobs," are "bitches," and so on.

Of course, not all posters are like this. But recently, there have been a spate of posts in this vein, or even in a less blatant style where the stated goal in a relationship seems to be to "seduce" and "get her into the sack." This still tends to objectify women, and I can see how this might be uncomfortable for our female members to read.

To me, one reason why this situation exists is due to this amazing thing called 'marriage'. It's a good thing I'm gay as I don't have to worry about such a 'moral institution' telling me what to do & also what to expect from my partner. Actually, I really think that the whole concept of marriage is flawed. It seems to be working for a few but the majority do not seem to cope with it. As a result, each blame the other for any reason when things get tough..."too fat", "a bitch" etc. Not everybody has the courage & individuality to weather a life-long relationship.

I believe that due to the recent political debacle in this country, a plethora of new members exists. Perhaps they have found a place to 'vent their frustration' about their relationships as well as commenting upon the political debacle?

To me, many of these things are to be expected in a patriarchal society (Thailand).

It's very easy...most men are sexual animals whilst most women are emotional animals. In Thailand, many 'ladies' seem to want money. Of course, I only assume this as a result of all the postings regarding Sin Sot etc.

Conversely, if western men refrain from 'falling in love' at the sight of a bar girl, many problems would not happen.

As for blokes complaining about their western spouses, perhaps they could see a marriage councellor?

Let's face it, you 'straight' folks have got your work 'cut out' for yourselves. But in the meantime, it makes no sense to bitch about something unless you openly admit that you are venting, which I think is fair enough. It's when this 'venting' gets 'serious' that indicates one wasn't just 'venting'.

For dog's sake, everybody relax a tad.

Edited May 4, 2010 by elkangorito

[WinnieTheKhwai]

And then it happens that many of these posters prefer asian women, and had negative experiences with western women, and they write about that and their feelings in an abusive manner.

But this thread is not solely about Western women. And if what you write above is true, then why so much abuse towards Thai women?

I don't remember seeing so much abuse against Thai women here.

In what way are Thai women usually slagged off in the forum?

Are you serious? You haven't read any of the vitriol which spouts unceasingly from some posters? About Thai women being incapable of love, if all being scam artists, of taking men for a ride, of all having Thai boyfriends while they go out with Western men (to fleece them, of course), and so on and so on?

Of course he's serious. Some people also do other things on any given day than read this forum, so by the time they get to it you will have weeded out anything you didn't like.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

To me, one reason why this situation exists is due to this amazing thing called 'marriage'. It's a good thing I'm gay as I don't have to worry about such a 'moral institution' telling me what to do & also what to expect from my partner. Actually, I really think that the whole concept of marriage is flawed. It seems to be working for a few but the majority do not seem to cope with it. As a result, each blame the other for any reason when things get tough..."too fat", "a bitch" etc. Not everybody has the courage & individuality to weather a life-long relationship.

I believe that due to the recent political debacle in this country, a plethora of new members exists. Perhaps they have found a place to 'vent their frustration' about their relationships as well as commenting upon the political debacle?

To me, many of these things are to be expected in a patriarchal society (Thailand).

It's very easy...most men are sexual animals whilst most women are emotional animals. In Thailand, many 'ladies' seem to want money. Of course, I only assume this as a result of all the postings regarding Sin Sot etc.

Conversely, if western men refrain from 'falling in love' at the sight of a bar girl, many problems would not happen.

As for blokes complaining about their western spouses, perhaps they could see a marriage councellor?

Let's face it, you 'straight' folks have got your work 'cut out' for yourselves. But in the meantime, it makes no sense to bitch about something unless you openly admit that you are venting, which I think is fair enough. It's when this 'venting' gets 'serious' that indicates one wasn't just 'venting'.

For dog's sake, everybody relax a tad.

So.. scams and creative ways to extract money are unheard of in the gay universe in Thailand?

Edited May 4, 2010 by WinnieTheKhwai

[elkangorito]

So.. scams and creative ways to extract money are unheard of in the gay universe in Thailand?

No, they are not but most of 'us' do not flood this forum with such drivel.

Edited May 4, 2010 by elkangorito

[IanForbes]

Coming back to the topic of bashing by demographics:

I moderate several forums, some of which are very sensitive, and I had to implement draconian moderation rules because many people are just too stupid to formulate their posts in a non-offensive way, or in a way that is backed by facts, and they always feel the need to add gratuitous insults.

It is mostly the feat of the more simple-minded.

Many of their bashing posts have a true basis, but they don't realize that most of their demographic-based bashing can be said in a polite & articulated way that is difficult to argue with.

BINGO! Give that man a kewpie doll from the top shelf.

I can't believe I wasted a whole morning reading all the comments since I went to bed last night.

If he wasn't actually TROLLING, bonobo certainly did an admirable job of it.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

So.. scams and creative ways to extract money are unheard of in the gay universe in Thailand?

No, they are not but most of 'us' do not flood this forum with such drivel.

Ah.. ok, fair point.

And *HIGHLY* appreciated it is too!

[Brigante7]

On a daily basis, I read posts which deride Thai women as being money-hungry scam artists, of being stupid, of being unable to love, and so on. I read posts which deride Western women as being sexless harpies who hate men, take everything in a divorce, are "fat, disgusting slobs," are "bitches," and so on.

Well its true is it not ??

And that illustrates my point exactly.

And the truth is the truth wether you like it or not. If that is the experience of a poster on this site then that is what he is going to say.

Brigante7.

[Ulysses G.]

We men who come to Thailand are such big prizes it is difficult to understand why women refuse to just fall at our feet.

[jackr]

Personally find this type of thread and a bit of a waste of bandwidth as it's always going to go down the same path. Isn't there a sub-forum specific for this type of thing?... or perhaps have George set up a sub-domain - thusly: www.female.thaivisa.com/forum so the ladies can rant away without messing up the rest of the site.

However, in my opinion, there has developed here, a culture of placing female members on some sort of untouchable pedestal. If anyone has the termerity to critisize, strongly disagree or engage in a war of words with a female member they are automatically put in the position of trangressor and villain and labelled misoginist. Their posts are deleted.

Yep.

Open discussion just isn't possible when there are still childish & rude posters who have to resort to derogatory & quite frankly gross & offensive phrases & comments about women, their looks, their personalities, their actions, basically everything. The reason we (female mods) take such a hard stance is that we don't want nor do we have to, read what your personal issues are with women.

Once again Boo you come in with all guns blazing behind your protective vest. My views were expressed here in this open forum because they were asked for by a moderator.

Yep, she does that. Is it possible to put a mod on 'ignore'?

[Ulysses G.]

The men who live here happily have beat the system. My ex wife told the judge that she wanted to make sure I never had another happy day in my life after she divorced me. She would have been correct had I stayed in the west. She didn't know about Thailand.

Some men try and make Thailand as much like the west as possible and this creates friction with those of us who have adapted to Thai customs, good and bad because we wanted to get away from the west.

Thailand is a male dominated society run by women. Some people have difficulty grasping this concept.

Interesting observations with more than a grain of truth.

Edited May 5, 2010 by Ulysses G.

[IanForbes]

The main problem with separating all the various topics into separate forums is you lose the overall interest of everyone. Then, something on a specific forum gets missed by the majority of people. After that the whole forum slowly slides into oblivion. I've seen it happen to several forums that split up the various topics into separate forums. There is already so many forums on Thaivisa that it's almost impossible to check them all other than just a quick peek. It's easy to miss a topic that might be relevant to everyone.

I still say that thaivisa is not UNFRIENDLY to women. If someone finds a topic offensive then just ignore it. Take a quick look and go somewhere else if it doesn't concern you. But, like bees to honey, people just can't help themselves from reading a controversial issue. It's almost like people WANT to be insulted or offended. This thread is a perfect example; it's already up to 13 pages and over 300 comments.

If a forum trims itself down to just a simple questions and simple answers forum then it will die a slow, painful death.

[mca]

admitted she deliberately targets people she dislikes

did I? I think you'll find I soaid I don't tolerate the crap written about women & therefore remove the psts & moderate those people. It has the added effect of winding them up cause I am a women. That isn't my problem, its theirs.

A bit different to your claims but you have made your agenda perfectly clear on this subject imo so think what you want

I'm going to have to call you out on that one Boo because you said you moderated their comments purely to wind them up. Sorry.

[Changian]

Just realised some people are taking this thread seriously. I thought the OP was trolling. (Pretty successfully too by the looks of things)

[canuckamuck]

The men who live here happily have beat the system. My ex wife told the judge that she wanted to make sure I never had another happy day in my life after she divorced me. She would have been correct had I stayed in the west. She didn't know about Thailand.

Some men try and make Thailand as much like the west as possible and this creates friction with those of us who have adapted to Thai customs, good and bad because we wanted to get away from the west.

Thailand is a male dominated society run by women. Some people have difficulty grasping this concept.

Interesting observations with more than a grain of truth.

I would say a male dominated culture where a small segment of the females are employed as farangherds.

[Ulysses G.]

admitted she deliberately targets people she dislikes

did I?

Actually, Boo does not follow posters (that she dislikes) around just looking for excuses to smite them. You have to say something uncomplimentary about women in order to reap your just deserts.

[eek]

Finally got around to reading this. Some posts quite depressing, but not unexpected. I honestly feel sorry for those who have so much anger and bitterness in them.

Seems my thread many moons back caused upset. Apologies to those it offended. It wasnt meant as an attack on men..whom i love btw. MOst of the men who joined in with "us" women, found it entertaining and harmless. Probably because they dont have a huge chip on their shoulder about women and can take a gentle swipe. I think rationally most of us can see the difference between talking about simple things that you dislike, and tagging on extra venomous nasty comments. Ie: 'Dont like smelly women' -to- 'Western women are all smelly feminazi bitches'. (bit extreme, but you get my gist). If you cant see the difference..then I really dont know what to say. Im used to the playful banter between men and women. Men who will tease me about something "girly" etc. I dont take offense. I think most women dont..??? I consider myself very feminine, i believe others do to. Frankly it still shocks me how some men may feel towards me, but something i no longer think about. Im happy to get on with just being who i am, and hopefully those around have enough good manners and good sense to see that I am just a regular person with no hidden agenda (ie: male bashing or whatever). Anyone I would offend, i would hope could let me know rationally, and not feel the need to start standing on a soap box virtually yelling at me.

For those that do have a lot of bitterness, I hope at least you are happy in yourselves. Personally I think life is sweeter when you learn to let go of negativity.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

I think the issue may be that the women on this forum by and large appear so positive, happy and perfect. You never see one come out with a proper whine about Thailand, their partners or Thai men in general. That just creates friction. (Plus pretty much all female forum members are moderators, that just creates natural friction with a membership who by and large didn't come to Thailand to be nannied over. If there was a female forum member who'd appear just a little bit naughty in her posting then she'd be the forum's superstar. Say, a female IanForbes, pictures going walkabout with massage boys and all; I can scarcely imagine the riot.

So, ladies, my recommendation would be to stop doing post after post claiming how great your Thai husbands are, how they're the greatest loving and caring partners, fathers, providers, and are hung like donkeys.

Try a proper whine and soon you'll be accepted.

if that doesn't work, try flattery. Like go on the Pattaya forum and tell the readership you think Pattaya expats wearing shorts and singlets are incredibly sexy, and be genuinely interested in their selection of amulets and choice of motorcycle. You know you can do it.

Edited May 5, 2010 by WinnieTheKhwai

[chiangmaibruce]

MOst of the men who joined in with "us" women, found it entertaining and harmless. Probably because they dont have a huge chip on their shoulder about women and can take a gentle swipe.

Yes quite so. But one of the reasons why the guys get riled is that while they can and do accommodate "a gentle swipe", some of the ladies appear quite incapable of returning the favour. What's good for the goose, is good for the gander as they say. This point is discussed in the following web site: http://www.girlsaskguys.com/Behavior-Quest...sm-without.html

I think rationally most of us can see the difference between talking about simple things that you dislike, and tagging on extra venomous nasty comments. Ie: 'Dont like smelly women' -to- 'Western women are all smelly feminazi bitches'. (bit extreme, but you get my gist).

Again, quite so - as they should. It seems to come down to greatly differing interpretations of what constitutes "extra venomous nasty comments". The example you give is certainly extreme - I don't recall ever seeing such comments (even as discussions were active). I have however seen many comments disappeared that were far more innocuous than that. If in practice "extra venomous" translates into anything that isn't complimentary towards women then some folks need to do some serious soul-searching rather than spewing barbs and rhetoric.

Personally I think life is sweeter when you learn to let go of negativity.

Again true, but I would also add that life is richer if you (meaning folks generally, not you Eek) are mature enough to take on board the opinions of others who differ from their own, and allow the free exchange of ideas so that people can arrive at their own informed position on a given issue.

Cue Voltaire: "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"

[carmine]

Finally got around to reading this. Some posts quite depressing, but not unexpected. I honestly feel sorry for those who have so much anger and bitterness in them.

Seems my thread many moons back caused upset. Apologies to those it offended. It wasnt meant as an attack on men..whom i love btw. MOst of the men who joined in with "us" women, found it entertaining and harmless. Probably because they dont have a huge chip on their shoulder about women and can take a gentle swipe. I think rationally most of us can see the difference between talking about simple things that you dislike, and tagging on extra venomous nasty comments. Ie: 'Dont like smelly women' -to- 'Western women are all smelly feminazi bitches'. (bit extreme, but you get my gist). If you cant see the difference..then I really dont know what to say. Im used to the playful banter between men and women. Men who will tease me about something "girly" etc. I dont take offense. I think most women dont..??? I consider myself very feminine, i believe others do to. Frankly it still shocks me how some men may feel towards me, but something i no longer think about. Im happy to get on with just being who i am, and hopefully those around have enough good manners and good sense to see that I am just a regular person with no hidden agenda (ie: male bashing or whatever). Anyone I would offend, i would hope could let me know rationally, and not feel the need to start standing on a soap box virtually yelling at me.

For those that do have a lot of bitterness, I hope at least you are happy in yourselves. Personally I think life is sweeter when you learn to let go of negativity.

Very nicely put