Bangkok: Policeman Killed, 7 Policemen, 2 Civilians Injured In Double Attacks

[Herm]

A lot of people here seem to be unable to understand why the last coup too place -

Thanks for sharing your opinion.

another one-liner and a flame? good job!

May be he is just saying that he has a large derriere and he thought this is a forum about lipo suction

Edited May 9, 2010 by Herm

[difos57]

Here's another rambling thread blaming the "REDS".

Be clear in a situation like this, there will be many "loony" factions on BOTH sides who think that by engaging in this sort of stuff that they will stir things up or achieve some obscure aims.

This site has taken to screaming anti-Resshirt slogans rather than making constructive comments on the situation - as most of the posters are probably ex-pats surely they would do themselves a favor if they stood back and took a dispassionate look at the situation rather than engage in partisan rantings and baseless accusations.

I've said it before on this site, Im increasingly astounded by the incredibly infantile comments that the expat community is capable of on this site.

***********************************

-But, isn't it interesting that grenades keep being used and hasn't it been reported that the Red thugs have launchers...or am I wrong (I know, the protesters all have red clappers)? Next: I am assuming most of the viewers on ThaiVisa are "farangs" like me. Many of us are raised to question, evaluate, and discuss issues--. So it will be natural to read comments that will disagree with yours or mine.

Are you looking for launchers? Google to "potato kanon" : with some pvc pipes and a BBQ igniter,you can shoot a patatoo (or something else) for about 200-300 yards !

After that take the pipes appart and there is nothing to see ,simple as it is !All those things are available for everyone on internet ,so if you dont know what you are looking for ,you will not find it !

Sorry mate, but that won't wash! M-79 grenades are inert until spun rapidly x number of times in the correct direction of rotation, which is done by the rifling in the barrel of the launcher. Your potato cannon might deliver the projectile, but it wouldn't explode.

Red arms cache found a few days ago included M-79 grenades and launchers. No other person/party have been caught in possession of M-79's, except an self-claimed arms dealer heading to a conflict scene (was he going to sell to the army??).There have been no reports of reds attacked by M-79's, but many of their opponents, including the commander of the 1st clearance attempt. Fireworks in the red camp have been used as a distraction during 2 such attacks. One caught perpetrator admits to carrying out M-79 grenade attacks for the reds.

Circumstantial evidence, but my jury would give the death penalty.

Yes, it is the reds MO. The firecrackers going off in Lumpini Park within 3 seconds of the grenade launches definately prove that this was a timed strategic operation that could only be performed by one group. The firecrakeres went off in Lumpini Park which is controlled by the reds. There is no other group in the park but the reds. Busted, THE REDS ARE TERRORISTS. If the reds would go home, none of this would happen. The reds are not doing as they are promised they would do. You do not negotiate with terrorist. The reds wanted a blood bath from the beginning and some want to use all of those weapons.

[FM505]

Looks like the reds have started to 'negotiate' again or is this the answer to whether they accept the road map? if it is it looks like a no.

How shallow and daft must this idea be...? Consider for just a moment the reality of life on the Southern border... and the continual (daily/weekly) battles that escape perspective here. These are the standard tactics of separatists. Consider the black shirts... consider the yellows. Or just remain in the bubble of arm chair impunity... and have another cup of coffee.

[whybother]

another one-liner and a flame? good job!

May be he is just saying that he has a large derriere and he thought this is a forum about lipo suction

Actually, the point is that opinions are like a-holes and when it comes to dishonest, hateful posts both you and jdinasia fit very well into that category.

Maybe you guys can start a special thread to abuse each other, rather than starting again in each and every thread.

[landofthefree]

And the so-called democracies should mind their own business and clean their own houses first. Thailand is a sovereign kingdom and not a colony of the so called democratic west (actually a form of corporatism). Thailand should turn East not West.... To China especially....

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a direct quote from one of your posts.

"Marx wrote an essay about the power of money in capitalist society, and thaksin is a prime example to prove Marx's words... Prime Minister Abhisit is far more a progressive than and even to the left of socially than former prime minister

and fugitive Thaksin."

So you like Red China?

That is where Thailand should go for leadership?

I think most Thais would strongly disagree with you.

For sure, the ruling class would dislike your view.

So are you against the reds but for red China?

You say Thailand should lean to China but you hate socialism and communism?

Strange fews

I said I hate socialism? Where...? I have admired China since I was a teen in the 60s. And yes I like China. And most Thai I talk to see the West as declining in power and China gaining the ascendancy as the superpower of the 21st century, while the West rests on the laurels of the first half of the 20th century.... Indeed Thailand is gradually moving closer to China economically and strategically. The sun is setting on the West and rising in the East...

Against the reds and for China - there is co correlation between the redshirts and China other than that some are former maoists (such as Dr. Weng) who have now sold their souls to Thaksin. There is no significant communist or left movement in Thailand, and the reds are in no way socialist, no more than Hitler's SA who usurped socialist rhetoric for a fascist and racist agenda. Though whether China is socialist any longer or not is a subject that is open to debate...

You might find yourself surprised by how much admiration there is for China amongst Thais, unless of course your associations are primarily bargirls... Everyone I speak too see China as the center in this century.

If the redshirts were genuine socialists instead of a billionaire's private army their complaints of social injustice might resound with me, though I find I like the Thai way of things. But I like the Thai monarchy and have embraced the concept of Dhammic Socialism espoused by Buddhadasa. As it is however, their slogans are no more than empty rhetoric aimed at the return of a genuine reactionary to a position of power in Thailand.

As it is in Thailand I see no need for faux revolutionaries cloaking themselves in left rhetoric.

And I support the monarchy here, perhaps the only place in the world where I can say that,

So please before you ascribe things to me, get your facts straight dear Mr. Bradley. You can read right? I just wonder because you ascribe sentiments to me that I never expressed or seem to assume that I should support the reds... Mr. Bradley am I correct that you mistakenly consider the reds socialist? And that you therefore blindly support them because of that mistaken assumption? Or is it beyond your cognitive abilities to recognize the incongruence between their rhetoric and their support for a billionaire along with their violent actions against anyone who disagrees with them?

Mr Bradley China will eclipse all the Western countries to rise in the 21st century to be the economic, technological, scientific, and military power of the 21st century. And China is where countries in the East, including Thailand, will shift their alliances. But this is Thailand Mr. Bradley and the redshirts are the topic. Where has China indicated any support for the reds? And where has China criticized Thailand in the slightest. Unlike the failed democracies of the West that tell Thailand to placate these terrorists while using drones to take out Al Qaeda leaders and dang anyone who is near them in the process....

If I had belief in the West I would still be there, instead of in a kingdom that I love and would die for, and which I don't want to see destroyed by redshirt tyranny. And the tyrants in Thailand are indeed in the red camp. The Prime Minister is probably the most intelligent and articulate figure in Thai politics today though I have come to appreciate and respect Newin Chidchob.

Gimme a break Mr. Bradley please... Read before you write... Hopefully you are not teacher here...

"Hopefully you are not a teacher here" ......I am and you missed your 'a' .

[Jerrytheyoung]

I am not a supporter of Abhisit, but I recognise that he has made a generous aperture, which is well perceived by most of Thais including Red shirts and that it is a good initiation to get out the mess. However, technically, from a former negotiator (who has experience of social disputes), this "roadmap' is still too vague, and can be easily dismantled by the opponants to the agreement. IMHO, Due to this situation, the Red Shirts MUST go in the details in order that the Roadmap is not an empty shell and they must exert an higher pressure than the yellow shirts/ PAD in order to reach this goal.

Nobody need go into any details except to outline a format for dialogue and inclusion of participants in the dialogue. This isn't a plan that's going to get laid on the participants for their consideration and approval. It is a dialouge to discuss numerous important issues that Thai people are conditioned not to discuss. That lack of discussion creates greater disunity and division in society than does learning to air their differences and find common ground. It is my understanding that Abhisit wants to get the input of all sectors of Thai society so that they may understand each others concerns better, find some common ground and that he may help them achieve their collective aims. Sure he's got some of his own ideas he's going to present, but from his announcement the only thing I saw that he wanted as a precondition is that everyone honor the idea of protecting the institution of the monarchy.

I will explain on a simplified way:

The Government represents the ruling class and the red Shirts at least part of the working class.

In the negotiation, the Red Shirts are "selling" the situation against 'advantages. It is clear that when the Government will have give "enough", under pressure of the Ruling class, he will not go further.

----For the Red Shirts, the issues are;

1- to get enough social measures to satisfy their troops

2- That the agreement is sufficiently detailed so that it cannot be twisted by some interpretations.

This is the dilemna of the negotiators.

Government is under pressure for giving a minimum (PAD/ yellows Shirts and some democrats are pushing in that direction)

Red Shirst leaders have to keep the steam has high as possible to lock an agreement which cannot be twisted.

However, Red Shirts and UDD have given signals that they were accepting the principle of the Roadmap. We are in the "locking process" of the agreement.

It is also obvious that some third parties or even some factions on both sides try to derail the process. But both the Red Shirt Leaders and the government have to maintain their headings.

I suggest also that Abhisit re-group his supporters in a movement because jhe may have to take other options than Democrats want and his own supporters are maybe not corresponding to the current political stratification.

S

Edited May 9, 2010 by Jerrytheyoung

[whybother]

I will explain on a simplified way:

The Government represents the ruling class and the red Shirts at least part of the working class.

In the negotiation, the Red Shirts are "selling" the situation against 'advantages. It is clear that when the Government will have give "enough", under pressure of the Ruling class, he will not go further.

----For the Red Shirts, the issues are;

1- to get enough social measures to satisfy their troops

2- That the agreement is sufficiently detailed so that it cannot be twisted by some interpretations.

This is the dilemna of the negotiators.

Government is under pressure for giving a minimum (PAD/ yellows Shirts and some democrats are pushing in that direction)

Red Shirst leaders have to keep the steam has high as possible to lock an agreement which cannot be twisted.

However, Red Shirts and UDD have given signals that they were accepting the principle of the Roadmap. We are in the "locking process" of the agreement.

It is also obvious that some third parties or even some factions on both sides try to derail the process. But both the Red Shirt Leaders and the government have to maintain their headings.

I suggest also that Abhisit re-group his supporters in a movement because jhe may have to take other options than Democrats want and his own supporters are maybe not corresponding to the current political stratification.

S

I think the Democrats "partly" represent the ruling class in the same way that the reds "partly" represent the working class.

In reality, the democrats and the reds represent the same classes, just with different views on how to move the country forward, on not, in the case of the reds.

[jcbangkok]

No more talking except to repeatedly warn the reds if they don't adhere to the law that authorities will be forced to take action. The reds have no more say in the politics of this country than all other CITIZENS. There is a duly elected body in place now that all citizens are welcome to write, call or assemble legally to show their wishes. The PM has already bowed to this mobs wishes even though they have acted illegally. He has every right to finish his term and has done NOTHING to show he is unfit to lead this country. In fact, his polices to date have been very good for all in the short term he has been PM. The only questions that can come up of his handling of things are directly related to the reds shirts illegal actions of trying to bring down the government and trying to incite a violent fight between authorities and the poor and somewhat innocent civilians they have manipulated and lied to.

Even if people don't like individual policies of their government, there is a time, place and legal way to take action even here in Thailand. To pretend there is not a democracy is insane when elections have always been scheduled.

[lazurus]

In Nonthaburi the red protest is blocking Rattanathibet Road, traffic is backed up to the river and I imagine it is worse on Ngamwongwan Road in the other direction. Red protesters have intensified their protest at Thaicom in Nonthaburi and have blocked several lanes with their vehicles. Take alternate routes if you can, so much for things getting better.

[jcbangkok]

I will explain on a simplified way:

The Government represents the ruling class and the red Shirts at least part of the working class.

In the negotiation, the Red Shirts are "selling" the situation against 'advantages. It is clear that when the Government will have give "enough", under pressure of the Ruling class, he will not go further.

----For the Red Shirts, the issues are;

1- to get enough social measures to satisfy their troops

2- That the agreement is sufficiently detailed so that it cannot be twisted by some interpretations.

This is the dilemna of the negotiators.

Government is under pressure for giving a minimum (PAD/ yellows Shirts and some democrats are pushing in that direction)

Red Shirst leaders have to keep the steam has high as possible to lock an agreement which cannot be twisted.

However, Red Shirts and UDD have given signals that they were accepting the principle of the Roadmap. We are in the "locking process" of the agreement.

It is also obvious that some third parties or even some factions on both sides try to derail the process. But both the Red Shirt Leaders and the government have to maintain their headings.

I suggest also that Abhisit re-group his supporters in a movement because jhe may have to take other options than Democrats want and his own supporters are maybe not corresponding to the current political stratification.

S

I think the Democrats "partly" represent the ruling class in the same way that the reds "partly" represent the working class.

In reality, the democrats and the reds represent the same classes, just with different views on how to move the country forward, on not, in the case of the reds.

Who gives a poop who represents what. Every country has different parties and at one time or another all the leading parties get their shot at being in power. Like it or not, we wait for elections. Like it or not, stuff happens that don't always come out of the norm of democracy. Gerald Ford was president of the United States but he was NEVER elected either president or vic president and I don't even believe he won a single national election for any seat in government. His rise to presidency could not have happened had the former president (and VP) not been run out of office for acting illegally. Different type of government but not that far removed from what we see here ... bottom line is you don't rise up and try to start wide scale violence just because you don't like what is happening especially when new elections will be held and the current government is acting in good faith, even if you feel you are getting the short end of the stick. People are not be slaughtered or having their properties taken away ... at least wouldn't be if it was not for the reds.

Edited May 9, 2010 by jcbangkok

[granuaile]

"Hopefully you are not a teacher here" ......I am and you missed your 'a' .

Yes I noticed that after I clicked submit when revising my post. But my net was so slow I was lazy to change it... Too, it was approaching 4 AM, well past my usual bedtime except when my dander is up. I am afraid I am horrible for typos when I am chatting or posting in forums.

[SabaiBKK]

ok lets be clear once and for all.

the yellow shirts didnt " conquer" or invade the airport , they went there to " welcome" somchai who was returning from a trip , but there was so many that the director of AOT closed the airport by HIMSELF ... they rallied in the arrival lane OUTSIDE the airport at first and NEVER ASKED THE THE AIRPORT BE CLOSED ... ONCE the airport was closed BY AOT then they just sat there .....

very easy to give the key of your house to a burglar and then accuse him to ransack your house ....

ohhhh and NO I'M NOT PRO YELLOW , I think that the situation as it is today would not have happened if Abhisit had the balls to put Sondhi and Chamlong in Jail without parole for 5 years as soon as he became prime minister.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_...ing_the_airport

Yellows may not be as bad but they are a bunch of selfish thugs just like the reds.

instead of posting for blowing hot air, ( like if its on wikipedia , it must be true) just read the last sentence of my original post

[jcbangkok]

ok lets be clear once and for all.

the yellow shirts didnt " conquer" or invade the airport , they went there to " welcome" somchai who was returning from a trip , but there was so many that the director of AOT closed the airport by HIMSELF ... they rallied in the arrival lane OUTSIDE the airport at first and NEVER ASKED THE THE AIRPORT BE CLOSED ... ONCE the airport was closed BY AOT then they just sat there .....

very easy to give the key of your house to a burglar and then accuse him to ransack your house ....

ohhhh and NO I'M NOT PRO YELLOW , I think that the situation as it is today would not have happened if Abhisit had the balls to put Sondhi and Chamlong in Jail without parole for 5 years as soon as he became prime minister.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_...ing_the_airport

Yellows may not be as bad but they are a bunch of selfish thugs just like the reds.

instead of posting for blowing hot air, ( like if its on wikipedia , it must be true) just read the last sentence of my original post

Feel free to dispute any of the facts posted there. I could care less who you support or don't I was addressing your false statement(s) early in your post.

EDIT:

Here, to make it easier, why don't you tell me what isn't true. References included.

Seizing the airport

On the evening of Tuesday 25 November 2008, the PAD executed what they called "Operation Hiroshima."[107] A convoy of hundreds of PAD members dressed in yellow blocked the two ends of the road in front of the terminal building of Suvarnabhumi International Airport and blockaded the main road to the airport. The airport is Bangkok's main airport and an important regional hub. PAD forces quickly overpowered hundreds of policemen armed with riot gear. PAD leaders mounted a mobile stage and proceeded to criticize the government. All Suvarnabhumi flights were soon canceled, leaving thousands of travelers stranded in the airport.[108][109]

The government called on the Royal Thai Army to restore order at the airport.[110] The Army did not follow the orders. In a press conference on 26 November, Army Commander General Anupong Paochinda proposed that the PAD withdraw from the airport and that the government resign. He also proposed that if the PAD did not comply, that they be subject to "social sanctions", whereas if the government did not comply, that the bureaucracy stop implementing government orders. A written copy of the proposal was sent to the government. Neither the PAD or the government complied with the proposal.[111]

At 4:30 AM on the morning of 26 November, three explosions were heard on the fourth floor of Suvarnbumi on the outside of the passenger terminal.[112] Another explosion was reported at 6 AM.[112] Several people were injured. It was not clear who set off the explosions.[113] The PAD did not allow the police or forensics experts to investigate the explosions.[26]

The PAD became the de-facto authority over the airport and the airplanes within it. Airports of Thailand, which planned to use U-Tapao military airbase outside of Bangkok as a replacement for Suvarnabhumi, pleaded with PAD leadership to release nearly a hundred empty aircraft from Suvarnabhumi.[114]

26 - ^ a b Asian Human Rights Committee, THAILAND: Watershed moment for democracy and rule of law, 26 November 2008

107 - ^ Matichon, พธม.เรียกยึดสุวรรณภูมิเป็นปฏิบัติการฮิโรชิม่า, 26 November 2008

108 - ^ The Nation, About 3,000 outbound passengers still stranded at Suvarnabhumi

109 - ^ IPS News, Thailand: Heading For Mobocracy?, 26 November 2008

110 - ^ Bloomberg, Thai Army Called on as Protest Shuts Main Airport, 25 November 2008

111 - The Nation, Anupong's panel calls for House dissolution and end of protests, 26 November 2008

112 - a b The Nation, 4 bomb attacks rock Bangkok

113 - Matichon, ศูนย์นเรนทรสรุปคนเจ็บ "บึ้ม-ปะทะ" เย็นวานถึงตอนนี้ 19 ราย พธม.ชี้ รบ.บึ้ม ดอนเมือง การ์ดตรวจ24ช.ม., 26 November 2008

114 - ^ The Nation, AOT chief to seek permission to fly 88 empty commercial planes from Suvarnabhumi, 30 November 2008

Edited May 9, 2010 by jcbangkok

[jcbangkok]

Oh and ...

Democrat Party MP for Sukhothai, Samphan Benchaphon, said of the airport seizure that the PAD "have the right to do it." Democrat Party MP for Bangkok, Thawil Praison, said that the PAD "could seize the airport and doing so is not excessive. The entire world understands that this is a normal matter in the struggle of democratic countries." .... From: Matichon, 2ส.ส.ปชป.ชี้พันธมิตรสามารถยึดสนามบินได้, 26 November 2008

and

On the night of 26 November 2008, the services at the Don Mueang Airport were stopped after the People's Alliance for Democracy seized control of the domestic passenger terminal.[137]

A bomb exploded near a bunker made of tyres near the main entrance to the passenger terminal at Don Muang Airport at 3:55 AM on 30 November. Before the explosion occurred, about 7 gunshots were heard from the direction of a warehouse deeper inside the airport compound. No one was injured in the explosion. It was not clear who or what set the bomb off.[138]

A plainclothes policewoman at the airport was identified and captured by PAD security forces and forced onto the main PAD stage inside the airport. Angry PAD protesters threw water at her and many tried to hit her. She was eventually allowed to leave the airport.[139]

Flights from Don Mueang Airport are expected to begin again on 5 December.[131]

131 - ^ a b c d "Thai Airways flight leaves Bangkok for Sydney". Agence France-Presse (The Australian). 4 December 2008.

138 - The Nation, Explosion occurs at Don Mueang Airport, 29 November 2008

139 - The Nation, PAD guards capture plainclothes policewoman, parade her before protesters, 29 November 2008

Edited May 9, 2010 by jcbangkok

[OzMick]

And the so-called democracies should mind their own business and clean their own houses first. Thailand is a sovereign kingdom and not a colony of the so called democratic west (actually a form of corporatism). Thailand should turn East not West.... To China especially....

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Here is a direct quote from one of your posts.

"Marx wrote an essay about the power of money in capitalist society, and thaksin is a prime example to prove Marx's words... Prime Minister Abhisit is far more a progressive than and even to the left of socially than former prime minister

and fugitive Thaksin."

So you like Red China?

That is where Thailand should go for leadership?

I think most Thais would strongly disagree with you.

For sure, the ruling class would dislike your view.

So are you against the reds but for red China?

You say Thailand should lean to China but you hate socialism and communism?

Strange fews

I said I hate socialism? Where...? I have admired China since I was a teen in the 60s. And yes I like China. And most Thai I talk to see the West as declining in power and China gaining the ascendancy as the superpower of the 21st century, while the West rests on the laurels of the first half of the 20th century.... Indeed Thailand is gradually moving closer to China economically and strategically. The sun is setting on the West and rising in the East...

Against the reds and for China - there is co correlation between the redshirts and China other than that some are former maoists (such as Dr. Weng) who have now sold their souls to Thaksin. There is no significant communist or left movement in Thailand, and the reds are in no way socialist, no more than Hitler's SA who usurped socialist rhetoric for a fascist and racist agenda. Though whether China is socialist any longer or not is a subject that is open to debate...

You might find yourself surprised by how much admiration there is for China amongst Thais, unless of course your associations are primarily bargirls... Everyone I speak too see China as the center in this century.

If the redshirts were genuine socialists instead of a billionaire's private army their complaints of social injustice might resound with me, though I find I like the Thai way of things. But I like the Thai monarchy and have embraced the concept of Dhammic Socialism espoused by Buddhadasa. As it is however, their slogans are no more than empty rhetoric aimed at the return of a genuine reactionary to a position of power in Thailand.

As it is in Thailand I see no need for faux revolutionaries cloaking themselves in left rhetoric.

And I support the monarchy here, perhaps the only place in the world where I can say that,

So please before you ascribe things to me, get your facts straight dear Mr. Bradley. You can read right? I just wonder because you ascribe sentiments to me that I never expressed or seem to assume that I should support the reds... Mr. Bradley am I correct that you mistakenly consider the reds socialist? And that you therefore blindly support them because of that mistaken assumption? Or is it beyond your cognitive abilities to recognize the incongruence between their rhetoric and their support for a billionaire along with their violent actions against anyone who disagrees with them?

Mr Bradley China will eclipse all the Western countries to rise in the 21st century to be the economic, technological, scientific, and military power of the 21st century. And China is where countries in the East, including Thailand, will shift their alliances. But this is Thailand Mr. Bradley and the redshirts are the topic. Where has China indicated any support for the reds? And where has China criticized Thailand in the slightest. Unlike the failed democracies of the West that tell Thailand to placate these terrorists while using drones to take out Al Qaeda leaders and dang anyone who is near them in the process....

If I had belief in the West I would still be there, instead of in a kingdom that I love and would die for, and which I don't want to see destroyed by redshirt tyranny. And the tyrants in Thailand are indeed in the red camp. The Prime Minister is probably the most intelligent and articulate figure in Thai politics today though I have come to appreciate and respect Newin Chidchob.

Gimme a break Mr. Bradley please... Read before you write... Hopefully you are not teacher here...

"Hopefully you are not a teacher here" ......I am and you missed your 'a' .

Before you pick on a missing "a", you might explain "Strange fews". Do you teach maths?

[tingtongfarang]

It'a s shame when someone dies but it's important to remember here that the police is an organised criminal network.

Correct and i see this as one of the main problems here,

All this talk about democracy ,road maps, and such but i doubt if any of the politicians in this or any previous government have any real intent on democracy and very few of the protesters know the meaning of the word,

I see this so called political struggle as nothing more than a fight over the most profitable posts for corruption and greed and the poor being used as pawns financed by a megalomaniac, The word democracy for these people at the moment is used to hide the true reason and for others just a hip word they dont know the meaning off,

Fact is the moment one vote is bought or gained through threats of violence or other means democracy is out the window and gone!

[jcbangkok]

New Rules to be included in the road map ...

No gatherings of more than 5 people wearing the same solid colored shirt.

No person shall own more than 1 shirt of the same solid color.

Any shirt containing 60% more of one color shall be deemed a solid colored shirt.

Violating the colored shirt laws will result in the same punishment as a drug dealer.

Edit:

And any person holding an illegal protest that infringes on the rights of others while displaying the Thai Flag or the colors of the Thai flag will also be dealt with in the same manner as a drug dealer.

Edited May 9, 2010 by jcbangkok

[OzMick]

I am not a supporter of Abhisit, but I recognise that he has made a generous aperture, which is well perceived by most of Thais including Red shirts and that it is a good initiation to get out the mess. However, technically, from a former negotiator (who has experience of social disputes), this "roadmap' is still too vague, and can be easily dismantled by the opponants to the agreement. IMHO, Due to this situation, the Red Shirts MUST go in the details in order that the Roadmap is not an empty shell and they must exert an higher pressure than the yellow shirts/ PAD in order to reach this goal.

Nobody need go into any details except to outline a format for dialogue and inclusion of participants in the dialogue. This isn't a plan that's going to get laid on the participants for their consideration and approval. It is a dialouge to discuss numerous important issues that Thai people are conditioned not to discuss. That lack of discussion creates greater disunity and division in society than does learning to air their differences and find common ground. It is my understanding that Abhisit wants to get the input of all sectors of Thai society so that they may understand each others concerns better, find some common ground and that he may help them achieve their collective aims. Sure he's got some of his own ideas he's going to present, but from his announcement the only thing I saw that he wanted as a precondition is that everyone honor the idea of protecting the institution of the monarchy.

I will explain on a simplified way:

The Government represents the ruling class and the red Shirts at least part of the working class.

In the negotiation, the Red Shirts are "selling" the situation against 'advantages. It is clear that when the Government will have give "enough", under pressure of the Ruling class, he will not go further.

----For the Red Shirts, the issues are;

1- to get enough social measures to satisfy their troops

2- That the agreement is sufficiently detailed so that it cannot be twisted by some interpretations.

This is the dilemna of the negotiators.

Government is under pressure for giving a minimum (PAD/ yellows Shirts and some democrats are pushing in that direction)

Red Shirst leaders have to keep the steam has high as possible to lock an agreement which cannot be twisted.

However, Red Shirts and UDD have given signals that they were accepting the principle of the Roadmap. We are in the "locking process" of the agreement.

It is also obvious that some third parties or even some factions on both sides try to derail the process. But both the Red Shirt Leaders and the government have to maintain their headings.

I suggest also that Abhisit re-group his supporters in a movement because jhe may have to take other options than Democrats want and his own supporters are maybe not corresponding to the current political stratification.

S

Jerry, this is all very well discussing the procedure of negotiations, and the history of social revolution, but you seem to have missed one point. The only thing that the reds have ever asked for is house dissolution in 15 days - and it is not going to happen. If you want to negotiate from a position of strength or otherwise, a very good start is to sit down with the opposition and state clearly WHAT YOU WANT.

Demanding something that you are never going to get achieves nothing

[lannarebirth]

I am not a supporter of Abhisit, but I recognise that he has made a generous aperture, which is well perceived by most of Thais including Red shirts and that it is a good initiation to get out the mess. However, technically, from a former negotiator (who has experience of social disputes), this "roadmap' is still too vague, and can be easily dismantled by the opponants to the agreement. IMHO, Due to this situation, the Red Shirts MUST go in the details in order that the Roadmap is not an empty shell and they must exert an higher pressure than the yellow shirts/ PAD in order to reach this goal.

Nobody need go into any details except to outline a format for dialogue and inclusion of participants in the dialogue. This isn't a plan that's going to get laid on the participants for their consideration and approval. It is a dialouge to discuss numerous important issues that Thai people are conditioned not to discuss. That lack of discussion creates greater disunity and division in society than does learning to air their differences and find common ground. It is my understanding that Abhisit wants to get the input of all sectors of Thai society so that they may understand each others concerns better, find some common ground and that he may help them achieve their collective aims. Sure he's got some of his own ideas he's going to present, but from his announcement the only thing I saw that he wanted as a precondition is that everyone honor the idea of protecting the institution of the monarchy.

I will explain on a simplified way:

The Government represents the ruling class and the red Shirts at least part of the working class. I disagree with your basic premise. I think you'll find that the PAD disagrees as well. Before this is over I think you'll be convinced K. Abhisit represents all Thai people, though with your closemndedness I think you'll think the Red Shirts created that change

In the negotiation, the Red Shirts are "selling" the situation against 'advantages. It is clear that when the Government will have give "enough", under pressure of the Ruling class, he will not go further.

----For the Red Shirts, the issues are;

1- to get enough social measures to satisfy their troops That's not the real issue as they'll be getting more from Abhisit than they ever have asked for. It is the manner and channels by which welfare is delivered that is the reds sticking point. They want local puyai to act as intermediaries with no accountability. well, that dog won't hunt. The rank and file won't care once it's presented what THEY will receive.

2- That the agreement is sufficiently detailed so that it cannot be twisted by some interpretations. There won't be an "agreement" as only one party has legitimacy in this process. There can be input but they better learn some diplomacy quickly.

This is the dilemna of the negotiators.

Government is under pressure for giving a minimum (PAD/ yellows Shirts and some democrats are pushing in that direction)

Red Shirst leaders have to keep the steam has high as possible to lock an agreement which cannot be twisted. You're seeing Yellow Shirt bogey men everywhere. they are a nearly spent force. It is more likely there will be defections from NPP than new members.

However, Red Shirts and UDD have given signals that they were accepting the principle of the Roadmap. We are in the "locking process" of the agreement.

It is also obvious that some third parties or even some factions on both sides try to derail the process. But both the Red Shirt Leaders and the government have to maintain their headings. I think they will, but remember there is no agreement, what there is is a process and it requires good faith which red shirts have yet to show. If they can shed Thaksin, which is a big if, they will be in more disarray than ever. No real leaders, no real agenda. Very difficult for Abhisit to work with.

I suggest also that Abhisit re-group his supporters in a movement because jhe may have to take other options than Democrats want and his own supporters are maybe not corresponding to the current political stratification. Maybe it is you that doesn't understand the current political stratification. It is understandable however as it appears to be in constant flux and you make the cardianl error of failing to see the opposition has many valid arguments. It is hard to believe you were ever a mediator or negotiator as you said you were. If tyou can't see the other side's POV you're just a pundit and they're a dime a dozen.

[jdinasia]

Jerry and others seem to be suggesting that negotiation at sword-point is the only thing that will work. It is clear that it will NOT work in Thailand and will in fact set up a dynamic that leads to failure. The reds either back down or there is even more blood on thier hands.

BTW --- Lanna--- If you see defections from NPP, I am sure you will then see the reds on this board using that to say that the Dems=PAD later.

In Thailand there will always be some fluidity. Having less to do with idealism than with which way the political wind is blowing.

Edited May 9, 2010 by jdinasia

[Old Man River]

Okay, just reviewed today's updates. So, basically the reds are back to pretending they are above all average citizens but are setting the stage to cry about how they were working towards a better road map to improve the one from the PM when for no reason at all the military moves on us and slaughtered all our lambs who we told to fight authorities till death.

Basically, nothing has changed since day one with this violent illegal mob.

Since Bangkok was occupied by the violent illegal mob in Sept of 2006 there has been no peace. Why does Abhisit condone the violence? Because he is paid by the perpetrators.

Certainly there was no peace in 2008 when Thaksin's People Power Party governed and of course, the violence really escalated this year when Thaksin's Red Shirts marched into Bangkok claiming they were going to burn the city down.

I do agree with you that Abhisit should have never condoned the violent acts of these Reds.

Don't think Abhisit has much of a choice. Army wouldn't move at his command. Police ignores him but puts out a few cops with shields and sticks for the show.

How can he do anything else than use his verbal abilities in response to threats and violence from the khwai daeng...

That was changing.

Abhisit had moved in police from the south who were waiting for the command to crackdown on the northern insurgents, and Anupong was going to finally allow the crackdown (Gen. Prem even moved into the 11th regiment headquarters). I think this all came post Chula hospital invasion. In addition, the DSI was moved into an elevated role to arrest the Reds' leaders that the Bangkok police were supporting. Everything was in place to crack down on the Reds, arrest their leaders and send the women and children home.

Abhisit, to his credit, didn't want this and instead presented his road map, which remains an issue of contention among many in Bangkok.

[SabaiBKK]

Yep, they were definitely very peaceful. Armed and dangerous, but peaceful. The guy with the slingshot, peaceful. The guys with the golf clubs, peaceful. The guys beating police officers, extremely peaceful. The guy aiming a handgun and shooting, even more peaceful. Here are some more photos to back up your claims of the peaceful PAD:

Chegevara king of disinformation and mixing up things... none of these pictures are from the 2006 coup , most of them and especially the one with the gun are from songkran last year and not against the government but the reds... the one with the police are certainly from the government house under somchai ... but have you heard of any police or army killed by the PAD???????????????

anyway it has nothing to do with the 2006 coup as you pretend

using you tactics of disinformation i can find you pictures of Thaksin with yellow shirts supporters and tell you that he is PAD

Edited May 9, 2010 by SabaiBKK

[brahmburgers]

Why does Abhisit announce that the Reds must leave soon or before the 15th of May?

Why so wishy washy? Here's what A could tell the Reds: "I didn't want to negotiate with a hammer over my head, but you forced the issue. You were given a very fair offer. You agreed. Yet you're still infecting downtown Bkk, and apparently there are more Red supporters coming (paid to attend (?) as those who preceded them?).

You have until 9 am Monday to start leaving, and until 9 pm the same day to have completely evacuated Bkk. Red leaders will be billed for the mess left behind and there will be no amnesty for illegal dumping charges.

If that timetable is not adhered to, I reserve the right to call in the full force of CRES to do what should have been done weeks ago, namely: enable Bangkok to function as Thailand's capital city for its people, its visitors and its businesses. I also reserve the right to have elections scheduled for December 2011 according to Thailand's Constitution."

- - - - - - - - - - - -

Note: Imagine a group of combat trained men who are encamped in downtown Bkk, and whose aim is to cause mayhem in order to further the plans of their paymaster. Now image those same men facing imminent arrest and confiscation of their weapons and ammo. They know they'll likely be caught 'red-handed' (pun intended) and have to face trial for terrorist activities and possibly treason. What's to be expected in such a scenario? The cornered men are going to use their weapons (soon to be confiscated) to {A} cause mayhem, and/or {B} forcefully break out of the cordon.

Also: vile actions, like the killing and injuring of cops & civilians, could be classic diversion tactics. When the shit hit the fan on Friday, did anyone look to see if any nefarious people were leaving the Red's barricades (elsewhere) with odd looking satchels?

Note to Bkk security: Keep a lot of cameras rolling, 24/7.

Plus: When CRES is detailed to breach the fortifications (even if protesters are gone), beware of boobie traps! Suggest; hose down barricades before dismantling them.

Edited May 9, 2010 by brahmburgers

[Jerrytheyoung]

I am not a supporter of Abhisit, but I recognise that he has made a generous aperture, which is well perceived by most of Thais including Red shirts and that it is a good initiation to get out the mess. However, technically, from a former negotiator (who has experience of social disputes), this "roadmap' is still too vague, and can be easily dismantled by the opponants to the agreement. IMHO, Due to this situation, the Red Shirts MUST go in the details in order that the Roadmap is not an empty shell and they must exert an higher pressure than the yellow shirts/ PAD in order to reach this goal.

Nobody need go into any details except to outline a format for dialogue and inclusion of participants in the dialogue. This isn't a plan that's going to get laid on the participants for their consideration and approval. It is a dialouge to discuss numerous important issues that Thai people are conditioned not to discuss. That lack of discussion creates greater disunity and division in society than does learning to air their differences and find common ground. It is my understanding that Abhisit wants to get the input of all sectors of Thai society so that they may understand each others concerns better, find some common ground and that he may help them achieve their collective aims. Sure he's got some of his own ideas he's going to present, but from his announcement the only thing I saw that he wanted as a precondition is that everyone honor the idea of protecting the institution of the monarchy.

I will explain on a simplified way:

The Government represents the ruling class and the red Shirts at least part of the working class.

In the negotiation, the Red Shirts are "selling" the situation against 'advantages. It is clear that when the Government will have give "enough", under pressure of the Ruling class, he will not go further.

----For the Red Shirts, the issues are;

1- to get enough social measures to satisfy their troops

2- That the agreement is sufficiently detailed so that it cannot be twisted by some interpretations.

This is the dilemna of the negotiators.

Government is under pressure for giving a minimum (PAD/ yellows Shirts and some democrats are pushing in that direction)

Red Shirst leaders have to keep the steam has high as possible to lock an agreement which cannot be twisted.

However, Red Shirts and UDD have given signals that they were accepting the principle of the Roadmap. We are in the "locking process" of the agreement.

It is also obvious that some third parties or even some factions on both sides try to derail the process. But both the Red Shirt Leaders and the government have to maintain their headings.

I suggest also that Abhisit re-group his supporters in a movement because jhe may have to take other options than Democrats want and his own supporters are maybe not corresponding to the current political stratification.

S

Jerry, this is all very well discussing the procedure of negotiations, and the history of social revolution, but you seem to have missed one point. The only thing that the reds have ever asked for is house dissolution in 15 days - and it is not going to happen. If you want to negotiate from a position of strength or otherwise, a very good start is to sit down with the opposition and state clearly WHAT YOU WANT.

Demanding something that you are never going to get achieves nothing

Fully disagree with you, you miss a tactical point. Until the last minute, you have to maintain the pressure and keep a strong point in your pocket. The Red Shirts are negotiating... it is on the way but they keep the house dissolution in their pocket until they are satisfied ...

you must also get an agreement which is difficult to misinterpreter and twist... because as soon as the Red Shirts will go home, some will try to distort and minimise the agreement.

Believe me. ... I do not want to tell more about me, but I have been involved in social movements, in politician discussions and I have been involved as a leading negociator (20 years ago) in social disputes including strikes. Today, after 20 years of thinking, I have gotten time to get the quintessence of my personal experience. Also in those times, I had followed a training on this kind of matters (as Unionist and as national political executive in a Major political Party).

[jdinasia]

hmmmmm still saying that an illegal rally AND negotiation using threats of violence is acceptable Jerry?

Pardon me if I do not believe your personal stories, since they do not ring true at all.

[SabaiBKK]

ok lets be clear once and for all.

the yellow shirts didnt " conquer" or invade the airport , they went there to " welcome" somchai who was returning from a trip , but there was so many that the director of AOT closed the airport by HIMSELF ... they rallied in the arrival lane OUTSIDE the airport at first and NEVER ASKED THE THE AIRPORT BE CLOSED ... ONCE the airport was closed BY AOT then they just sat there .....

very easy to give the key of your house to a burglar and then accuse him to ransack your house ....

ohhhh and NO I'M NOT PRO YELLOW , I think that the situation as it is today would not have happened if Abhisit had the balls to put Sondhi and Chamlong in Jail without parole for 5 years as soon as he became prime minister.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People's_...ing_the_airport

Yellows may not be as bad but they are a bunch of selfish thugs just like the reds.

instead of posting for blowing hot air, ( like if its on wikipedia , it must be true) just read the last sentence of my original post

Feel free to dispute any of the facts posted there. I could care less who you support or don't I was addressing your false statement(s) early in your post.

EDIT:

Here, to make it easier, why don't you tell me what isn't true. References included.

Seizing the airport

On the evening of Tuesday 25 November 2008, the PAD executed what they called "Operation Hiroshima."[107] A convoy of hundreds of PAD members dressed in yellow blocked the two ends of the road in front of the terminal building of Suvarnabhumi International Airport and blockaded the main road to the airport. The airport is Bangkok's main airport and an important regional hub. PAD forces quickly overpowered hundreds of policemen armed with riot gear. PAD leaders mounted a mobile stage and proceeded to criticize the government. All Suvarnabhumi flights were soon canceled, leaving thousands of travelers stranded in the airport.[108][109]

The government called on the Royal Thai Army to restore order at the airport.[110] The Army did not follow the orders. In a press conference on 26 November, Army Commander General Anupong Paochinda proposed that the PAD withdraw from the airport and that the government resign. He also proposed that if the PAD did not comply, that they be subject to "social sanctions", whereas if the government did not comply, that the bureaucracy stop implementing government orders. A written copy of the proposal was sent to the government. Neither the PAD or the government complied with the proposal.[111]

At 4:30 AM on the morning of 26 November, three explosions were heard on the fourth floor of Suvarnbumi on the outside of the passenger terminal.[112] Another explosion was reported at 6 AM.[112] Several people were injured. It was not clear who set off the explosions.[113] The PAD did not allow the police or forensics experts to investigate the explosions.[26]

The PAD became the de-facto authority over the airport and the airplanes within it. Airports of Thailand, which planned to use U-Tapao military airbase outside of Bangkok as a replacement for Suvarnabhumi, pleaded with PAD leadership to release nearly a hundred empty aircraft from Suvarnabhumi.[114]

26 - ^ a b Asian Human Rights Committee, THAILAND: Watershed moment for democracy and rule of law, 26 November 2008

107 - ^ Matichon, พธม.เรียกยึดสุวรรณภูมิเป็นปฏิบัติการฮิโรชิม่า, 26 November 2008

108 - ^ The Nation, About 3,000 outbound passengers still stranded at Suvarnabhumi

109 - ^ IPS News, Thailand: Heading For Mobocracy?, 26 November 2008

110 - ^ Bloomberg, Thai Army Called on as Protest Shuts Main Airport, 25 November 2008

111 - The Nation, Anupong's panel calls for House dissolution and end of protests, 26 November 2008

112 - a b The Nation, 4 bomb attacks rock Bangkok

113 - Matichon, ศูนย์นเรนทรสรุปคนเจ็บ "บึ้ม-ปะทะ" เย็นวานถึงตอนนี้ 19 ราย พธม.ชี้ รบ.บึ้ม ดอนเมือง การ์ดตรวจ24ช.ม., 26 November 2008

114 - ^ The Nation, AOT chief to seek permission to fly 88 empty commercial planes from Suvarnabhumi, 30 November 2008

ONCE AGAIN. read the last sentence of my original post and you will understand what i think about the PAD.... then this is on wikipedia so it has to be thr truth .... just like I can go there and write that Thaksin led the yellow shirts to the airport and you would quote it too ... the reds went to the airports to prevent somchai from going back to BKK .... what happened after is that the AOT CHOSE BY ITSELF TO CLOSE THE AIRPORTS ... only then , once they got the key did they install a stage and get in and around the airport ....

nuff said

[granuaile]

Chegevara king of disinformation and mixing up things... none of these pictures are from the 2006 coup , most of them and especially the one with the gun are from songkran last year and not against the government but the reds... the one with the police are certainly from the government house under somchai ... but have you heard of any police or army killed by the PAD???????????????

anyway it has nothing to do with the 2006 coup as you pretend

using you tactics of disinformation i can find you pictures of Thaksin with yellow shirts supporters and tell you that he is PAD

I took those photos with a big grain of salt.... Wasn't sure where they were from, but knew not the coup which went off without a hitch.... (seemingly at least).... And I was pretty sure they weren't yellows... Most yellows I know look far less like a Thai chapter of the Aryan Brotherhood.... Thanks for clarifying where they are from...

[Jerrytheyoung]

Do you read Webfacts?

These are elements which confirm that a negotiation is on going....

from Webfact:

"The Red Shirts have signed up to the peace process but are demanding a firm date for the dissolution of parliament before disbanding their base, where they are barricaded behind piles of fuel-soaked tyres and razor wire.

Both sides said the attacks were the work of groups intent on derailing Abhisit's peace roadmap.

The premier said the latest attacks were "carried out by terrorists who don't want the reconciliation plan."

The Reds also said the latest killings were carried out by elements intent on sabotaging the peace proposals.

"This will not distract us or derail the process," Reds leader Nattawut Saikuar said Saturday. However, he indicated that an agreement was not yet within reach.

"The five-point roadmap plan which is proposed by Abhisit we already understand. But on our part, we need a few more days to come up with our own proposals, which will be flexible," he said."

I am not in touch with any insider of any side, maybe Lannarebirth has some in the democrat/coalition side? A negotiation is on going, and usual tactics are applied to reach an agreement, we are on track to see a quick end, but still some turbulences to overpass....

Edited May 9, 2010 by Jerrytheyoung

[difos57]

Chegevara king of disinformation and mixing up things... none of these pictures are from the 2006 coup , most of them and especially the one with the gun are from songkran last year and not against the government but the reds... the one with the police are certainly from the government house under somchai ... but have you heard of any police or army killed by the PAD???????????????

anyway it has nothing to do with the 2006 coup as you pretend

using you tactics of disinformation i can find you pictures of Thaksin with yellow shirts supporters and tell you that he is PAD

I took those photos with a big grain of salt.... Wasn't sure where they were from, but knew not the coup which went off without a hitch.... (seemingly at least).... And I was pretty sure they weren't yellows... Most yellows I know look far less like a Thai chapter of the Aryan Brotherhood.... Thanks for clarifying where they are from...

More lies from the che. Whatever happened to all of the aliases that che was using. I think it was brahmburger noticed it in another thread and all of the cheb aliases went home. Definately a red terrorist supporter.

[Jerrytheyoung]

hmmmmm still saying that an illegal rally AND negotiation using threats of violence is acceptable Jerry?

Pardon me if I do not believe your personal stories, since they do not ring true at all.

it is History... unions and political Parties have used hundred of times "illegal rallyes" and from time to time it was turning violent. As european, I am inheriting of my social environment because of some of those actions.

Now my personal history is of no interest for anybody, but be informed that all major unions, all political Parties in Europe are training their staffs, and how to handle a social dispute is a well known topic. Obviously, you have never been in touch with such a training. Ask the Human resources Manager of your Company (if it is a big one) to explain you how he must handle a negociation.

(A typical induction training on those techniques is minimum one week, during which you play several scenarios....Very instructive)