US Assistant Secretary Of State Campbell Meets Red-Shirts Protesters

[noahvail]

The United States Government hasn't ever found or declared the Red Shirts to be a terrorist organization, nor is it about to make or declare such a finding.

Its not a terrorist movement , thats why . Plain and simple

That just means they were not reviewed during the roll up to the CURRENT official listing of terrorist groups.

So technically not a terrorist group for USA, at the moment, but that doesn't mean it couldn't change.

It the Ronin Warriors go off the reservation after a deal is done they don't like, the whole equation will likely change.

Please consider that the US may be (or is putting the possibility forward) that they could broker a peace arrangement, whether overtly or behind the scenes. To label a group terrorists would pretty much preclude any chance of that happening.

The US has brokered a number of peace arrangements over the years. The former President, Jimmy Carter, was the intermediary with several opposing factions in the years after his term in office. He's getting on in years now, I don't blame him for stopping.

When it was just the government and the red shirts, I felt confident that a compromise agreement could be reached. With the addition of other elements, yellow shirts and multi-coloured shirts and who knows what else, simple negotiation tactics will not work. A "disinterested" third party could hold and conclude such negotiations. It may be that the undersec was laying the groundwork and the ground rules for such a thing to happen.

Compromise is better than more deaths. It's easy for us here on the forums to shout terrorist or not terrorist, and it may be simply posturing for the government to bandy the label about, in an effort to gain a stronger position in negotiation. Why else would the red shirt leaders be trying to distance themselves from Seh Daeng? They know what he has done. And they also know that he appointed himself a leader of the red shirts. No votes, he just went in as the general/leader and no one stopped him. My gawd, that seems so long ago....

[pornsasi]

Get real. The actor was plant, take off the Red sunglasses and have a look at the real situation. You seriously think he was a plant, are you on drugs!

The guy living in On-nut was a red-shirt guard with an arsenal in his front room. You think he wouldn't be ready to use it if required?

Nnobody knows who shot the grenades or the Police officers, we can only speculate. In actual fact, we can only speculate about most of this situation, it is all about opinion. Neither you or I have the actual facts so until then lets continue to speculate, fool.

PS - it's 'waste' not waist.

Flaming wont make your case any stronger or pertinent

In all system of justice , its for the prosecutor to demonstrate , that the accused is a felon or a criminal

not for the accused to proove his innocence . so i dont have to proove anything

[whybother]

I was talking about the use of firearms here , not punching or beating . Protest do turn violent in that respect sometimes everywhere in the word . But ppl dont die . Please remain focussed , irrelevant of your personal symphaties

So I'll ask again, didn't you see the videos of reds on the night of the 10th hiding behind poles and shooting at soldiers?

Can you show me the video?

Can you give me the evidence that a man in black was a red protestor?

Can you give the name of that man?

I think like all prime minister also the prime minister in thailand have " intelligence" or " secret service" work for him, also him said yesterday:

"Abhisit said only a group of terrorists wanted to under-mine the peace process because once the process was done, they would be alienated and would not be able to use red-shirt people as their human shields."

The link:

The man in black carrying the weapons was shown on the red stage a couple of days after.

You can say that the men in black, or anyone shooting at soldiers might not have been "red protestors". But if they were amongst the red protestors, that makes them red protestors.

[lazurus]

The US government has a long time rule never to discuss or negotiate with terrorists. So why is the assistant secretary of state making an exception now? Is it because these terrorists are not threatening the US? Not only Thailand has double standards.

Probably because the red shirts is not a terrorist movement

Yes it is

. Sorry my friend i somewhat trust more the US state department then some clownish yellows supporters

The US has supported the Taliban, the US has supported Saddam Hussein, the US has supported Osama bin Laden, the US elected George Bush twice, do they seem like they are good judges of character? Eventually they'll figure out what the reds are really after. I bet the state department got off the plane in Bangkok and said "Wow Taiwan is hot".

[schmutzie]

<...>

I think the media had make hundreds of picture and video.....no one show a single weapon.

<...>

Strictly speaking, that's not true. Off the top of my head, there were images of a man holding an AK47 and the widely published image of another carrying an M16 on the night of April 10th. The UDD claimed that the man with the M16 retrieved and secured the weapon and that

it had been abandoned by army personnel. They later made a big display of all the weapons they'd retrieved.

Never saw any further speculation as to the identity of the man with the AK47.

There was also the shot of hooded man crouching between abandoned cars and holding a pistol during the Vibhavadi Rd. standoff on April 29th.

Now, we can all speculate as to the relationship and roles of these men/images. But I disagree about there not being any images or videos showing weapons (that is, by people other than those who can be clearly identified as being army or police personnel).

And again, how would you define a weapon? What about those sharpened bamboo poles. What are they for?

Yes I saw picture of red shirts holding M16 abandoned by the soldiers , those weapons were returned to the police . Or do you think it would had been better to leave those weapons on the pavement and have children pick em up ad injuring themselves ? What i did not see however is red shirts firing weapons .

And lets define weapons as firearms or explosives , else everyone with a swiss army folding knife is also armed , myself included

We're not interested in "what I think". We're interested in whether or not images or video have been released showing red shirts having weapons. You have now moved the target as to we have seen images of red shirts firing them.

I think I covered myself by stating that the people in these images could not clearly be identified to be red shirt. But clearly they were not army or police. So they were something else.

You have explained one image although you again misinterpret and get ahead of yourself. Let's leave that for now.

What, in your view, is the proper explanation of the other two images I mentioned?

In light of what we've seen, despite army or police provocation, would you still say the the UDD is presenting a protest that at its heart is non-violent and peaceful? If they were, why can they not respect orders to disperse or indeed take a hint when they are faced with army personnel? Why are they above the law? Is it the case that, as the supposed under dogs in the arms race, they entitled to throwing a few stones, sticks and whatnot. The odd punch here and there?

We disagree at a fundamental level, and that is where you equate violence as something that involves guns and firing them at someone. For me, speaking of or inciting violence is enough.

Oh, and plenty people die all over the world in riots or protests or bar brawls that do not involve fire arms.

In case you aren't aware of it, you're doing the red shirts a disservice by what you're writing here. At least the Italian fellow seemed to have some genuine questions whereas you just latched onto his post and made it extremely banal.

[oceano]

Protesters have died in other protests this last week around the world.

Not all the Army and Police weapons have been returned.

People on the red side were definitely filmed shooting.

Oceano,

for most of the world using the word Mafia, is no longer ONLY a specific usage to it's origin in Sicily,

but a generic for organized crime groups. Russian mafia, Irish mafia, Thai mafia, Columbian mafia. Etc.

Outside of Italy, it is no longer considered specific to La Cosa Nostra. That's just the way it is,

and not a slur on Italians in any case.

Words in English often develop double or triple meanings in different contexts.

That said, while I don't agree with every point in the post you were angry about,

it was in general well put together and not mean spirited, and looked at some sad possibilities.

So I didn't understand why you were so upset.

Belive me I'm not upset.

People on the red side, not red people from the red side.

The man that was shoot in the head, the first, was shoot from someone in the red side i know and I agree, the video show very well that.

I understand now about the word used thank you for explain to me.

I see around 4 or 5 men shooting i see also around 20 soldiers shoothing real bullet...( but before the video they said they shoot only plastic bullet) i see that the men in black they are ex soldier or police men( this EX is said from many that they dont know who the men in black are, no evidence again that are EX).

I repeat my point is:

dont talk ( not you, you talk right)like all red/yellow/pink are terrorist or violent people, dont make a new account and after 1 post start to point at someone like is a terrorist or criminal whitout the real evidence about that, 90% of red/yellow/pink are only normal people that want change something in a pacific mode, like the prime minister said.

[chantorn]

The United States Government hasn't ever found or declared the Red Shirts to be a terrorist organization, nor is it about to make or declare such a finding.

Its not a terrorist movement , thats why . Plain and simple

That just means they were not reviewed during the roll up to the CURRENT official listing of terrorist groups.

So technically not a terrorist group for USA, at the moment, but that doesn't mean it couldn't change.

It the Ronin Warriors go off the reservation after a deal is done they don't like, the whole equation will likely change.

Please consider that the US may be (or is putting the possibility forward) that they could broker a peace arrangement, whether overtly or behind the scenes. To label a group terrorists would pretty much preclude any chance of that happening.

The US has brokered a number of peace arrangements over the years. The former President, Jimmy Carter, was the intermediary with several opposing factions in the years after his term in office. He's getting on in years now, I don't blame him for stopping.

When it was just the government and the red shirts, I felt confident that a compromise agreement could be reached. With the addition of other elements, yellow shirts and multi-coloured shirts and who knows what else, simple negotiation tactics will not work. A "disinterested" third party could hold and conclude such negotiations. It may be that the undersec was laying the groundwork and the ground rules for such a thing to happen.

Compromise is better than more deaths. It's easy for us here on the forums to shout terrorist or not terrorist, and it may be simply posturing for the government to bandy the label about, in an effort to gain a stronger position in negotiation. Why else would the red shirt leaders be trying to distance themselves from Seh Daeng? They know what he has done. And they also know that he appointed himself a leader of the red shirts. No votes, he just went in as the general/leader and no one stopped him. My gawd, that seems so long ago....

^{_{Its a terrorist movement , that's why . Plain and simple}}

[pornsasi]

The United States Government hasn't ever found or declared the Red Shirts to be a terrorist organization, nor is it about to make or declare such a finding.

Its not a terrorist movement , thats why . Plain and simple

That just means they were not reviewed during the roll up to the CURRENT official listing of terrorist groups.

So technically not a terrorist group for USA, at the moment, but that doesn't mean it couldn't change.

It the Ronin Warriors go off the reservation after a deal is done they don't like, the whole equation will likely change.

Please consider that the US may be (or is putting the possibility forward) that they could broker a peace arrangement, whether overtly or behind the scenes. To label a group terrorists would pretty much preclude any chance of that happening.

The US has brokered a number of peace arrangements over the years. The former President, Jimmy Carter, was the intermediary with several opposing factions in the years after his term in office. He's getting on in years now, I don't blame him for stopping.

When it was just the government and the red shirts, I felt confident that a compromise agreement could be reached. With the addition of other elements, yellow shirts and multi-coloured shirts and who knows what else, simple negotiation tactics will not work. A "disinterested" third party could hold and conclude such negotiations. It may be that the undersec was laying the groundwork and the ground rules for such a thing to happen.

Compromise is better than more deaths. It's easy for us here on the forums to shout terrorist or not terrorist, and it may be simply posturing for the government to bandy the label about, in an effort to gain a stronger position in negotiation. Why else would the red shirt leaders be trying to distance themselves from Seh Daeng? They know what he has done. And they also know that he appointed himself a leader of the red shirts. No votes, he just went in as the general/leader and no one stopped him. My gawd, that seems so long ago....

Yes i 100% agree with you and even if Sae Deng and a few others can never be prooven to have actually done armed violent attacks (fired weapons or threw grenades ) their violent rethoric justifies that they should be arrested . Any other opinion is not sustainable . But they do not represent the majority of the red shirt movement . I think that's what the US was trying to say . I also hope that it ends up peacefully , we are very near ... i guess

PS : and again agree with you on the role the US is trying to play which is for the good of everyone

Edited May 10, 2010 by pornsasi

[lazurus]

I was talking about the use of firearms here , not punching or beating . Protest do turn violent in that respect sometimes everywhere in the word . But ppl dont die . Please remain focussed , irrelevant of your personal symphaties

So I'll ask again, didn't you see the videos of reds on the night of the 10th hiding behind poles and shooting at soldiers?

Can you show me the video?

Can you give me the evidence that a man in black was a red protestor?

Can you give the name of that man?

I think like all prime minister also the prime minister in thailand have " intelligence" or " secret service" work for him, also him said yesterday:

"Abhisit said only a group of terrorists wanted to under-mine the peace process because once the process was done, they would be alienated and would not be able to use red-shirt people as their human shields."

The link:

The man in black carrying the weapons was shown on the red stage a couple of days after.

You can say that the men in black, or anyone shooting at soldiers might not have been "red protestors". But if they were amongst the red protestors, that makes them red protestors.

Just because someone goes to a red protest, wears a red tshirt, yells red slogans, gets paid by the red leaders, fights alongside the reds, and has "I love Thaksin" tattooed on his left butt cheek doesn't make him a red protester if the red leaders are implicated in any crimes due to his actions. In that case he's an independent nutjob.

[oceano]

The US has supported the Taliban, the US has supported Saddam Hussein, the US has supported Osama bin Laden, the US elected George Bush twice, do they seem like they are good judges of character? Eventually they'll figure out what the reds are really after. I bet the state department got off the plane in Bangkok and said "Wow Taiwan is hot".

So lazarus do you live in Thailand?

What do you do IF the red ( that are ALL terrorist) win the next election?

[chantorn]

I was talking about the use of firearms here , not punching or beating . Protest do turn violent in that respect sometimes everywhere in the word . But ppl dont die . Please remain focussed , irrelevant of your personal symphaties

So I'll ask again, didn't you see the videos of reds on the night of the 10th hiding behind poles and shooting at soldiers?

http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exclus...-thailand-crack

You must be referring to this one. I agree it was a very tragic event.

[oceano]

The link:

The man in black carrying the weapons was shown on the red stage a couple of days after.

Sorry, can you see the face? they have covered the face how can you see the face?

But i see the face of some soldiers shooting real bullet....mmmm i think they are not real soldier, only red people that wear soldiers dress ang go in the middle of real soldier to shoot to the red....yes is like that!

Edited May 10, 2010 by oceano

[whybother]

I was talking about the use of firearms here , not punching or beating . Protest do turn violent in that respect sometimes everywhere in the word . But ppl dont die . Please remain focussed , irrelevant of your personal symphaties

So I'll ask again, didn't you see the videos of reds on the night of the 10th hiding behind poles and shooting at soldiers?

http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exclus...-thailand-crack

You must be referring to this one. I agree it was a very tragic event.

Yes. It's tragic to see soldiers having to fire at the protestors while they are dragging other dead and injured soldiers to safety after being hit by grenades.

Did you see the followup france24 article explaining why the soldiers were firing? I'll have to see if I can find the link ....

[whybother]

The link:

The man in black carrying the weapons was shown on the red stage a couple of days after.

Sorry, you can see the face? they have covered the face how can you see the face?

Do you want me to identify the guy and bring him to meet you before you will accept that there were reds firing at the army?

[oceano]

I was talking about the use of firearms here , not punching or beating . Protest do turn violent in that respect sometimes everywhere in the word . But ppl dont die . Please remain focussed , irrelevant of your personal symphaties

So I'll ask again, didn't you see the videos of reds on the night of the 10th hiding behind poles and shooting at soldiers?

http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exclus...-thailand-crack

You must be referring to this one. I agree it was a very tragic event.

You make some confusion, this video show:

Exclusive FRANCE 24 footage contradicts the Thai government’s declaration that soldiers only fired live rounds into the air during Saturday night clashes with "Red Shirt" anti-government protesters in which at least 21 people were killed.

[pornsasi]

I was talking about the use of firearms here , not punching or beating . Protest do turn violent in that respect sometimes everywhere in the word . But ppl dont die . Please remain focussed , irrelevant of your personal symphaties

So I'll ask again, didn't you see the videos of reds on the night of the 10th hiding behind poles and shooting at soldiers?

Can you show me the video?

Can you give me the evidence that a man in black was a red protestor?

Can you give the name of that man?

I think like all prime minister also the prime minister in thailand have " intelligence" or " secret service" work for him, also him said yesterday:

"Abhisit said only a group of terrorists wanted to under-mine the peace process because once the process was done, they would be alienated and would not be able to use red-shirt people as their human shields."

The link:

The man in black carrying the weapons was shown on the red stage a couple of days after.

You can say that the men in black, or anyone shooting at soldiers might not have been "red protestors". But if they were amongst the red protestors, that makes them red protestors.

Thanks . They are not among red shirt protesters but on the vincinity of the protest and they dont have red shirts . They have shields like police . Could be ex policemen , provocators , rogue army soldiers , whatever . No proof here . I dont have the sound on this putter , but i suppose the shooting had started already ?

[SICA]

Get real. The actor was plant, take off the Red sunglasses and have a look at the real situation. You seriously think he was a plant, are you on drugs!

The guy living in On-nut was a red-shirt guard with an arsenal in his front room. You think he wouldn't be ready to use it if required?

Nnobody knows who shot the grenades or the Police officers, we can only speculate. In actual fact, we can only speculate about most of this situation, it is all about opinion. Neither you or I have the actual facts so until then lets continue to speculate, fool.

PS - it's 'waste' not waist.

Flaming wont make your case any stronger or pertinent

In all system of justice , its for the prosecutor to demonstrate , that the accused is a felon or a criminal

not for the accused to proove his innocence . so i dont have to proove anything

- Just watch this, especially around 47 seconds. But i guess this AK47 was picked up after it was dropped by a fleeing soldier? If so, what was he fleeing from? A Red Shirt armed with sharp wit and a steely look?

[pornsasi]

I was talking about the use of firearms here , not punching or beating . Protest do turn violent in that respect sometimes everywhere in the word . But ppl dont die . Please remain focussed , irrelevant of your personal symphaties

So I'll ask again, didn't you see the videos of reds on the night of the 10th hiding behind poles and shooting at soldiers?

http://www.france24.com/en/20100411-exclus...-thailand-crack

You must be referring to this one. I agree it was a very tragic event.

Yes thats the one i saw b4

[oceano]

The link:

The man in black carrying the weapons was shown on the red stage a couple of days after.

Sorry, you can see the face? they have covered the face how can you see the face?

Do you want me to identify the guy and bring him to meet you before you will accept that there were reds firing at the army?

You accuse that they are RED not me, give an evidence about that.

You said that the same man shooting in this video was on the red stage not me, but the face is covered so how can you tell was on the red stage?

[lazurus]

Just because the USA has not formally added the red shirts to their list of Terrorist organizations in not evidence that they are not terrorists. Firstly unless they target American interests it is unlikely that step would be taken, and if it was it would take many months for it to happen. A meeting between Red representatives and an American official does not mean they could not be considered terrorists. US officials have met with leaders of the PLO and other organizations that could be considered terrorists to mediate in other circumstances.

"criminal acts, including against civilians, committed with the intent to cause death or serious bodily injury, or taking of hostages, with the purpose to provoke a state of terror in the general public or in a group of persons or particular persons, intimidate a population or compel a government or an international organization to do or to abstain from doing any act, which constitute offences within the scope of and as defined in the international conventions and protocols relating to terrorism, are under no circumstances justifiable by considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or other similar nature," UN resolution 1566 defining terrorism.

Seems like making a case that the reds have committed terrorism would be pretty simple. If you were honest with yourself.

[pornsasi]

Get real. The actor was plant, take off the Red sunglasses and have a look at the real situation. You seriously think he was a plant, are you on drugs!

The guy living in On-nut was a red-shirt guard with an arsenal in his front room. You think he wouldn't be ready to use it if required?

Nnobody knows who shot the grenades or the Police officers, we can only speculate. In actual fact, we can only speculate about most of this situation, it is all about opinion. Neither you or I have the actual facts so until then lets continue to speculate, fool.

PS - it's 'waste' not waist.

Flaming wont make your case any stronger or pertinent

In all system of justice , its for the prosecutor to demonstrate , that the accused is a felon or a criminal

not for the accused to proove his innocence . so i dont have to proove anything

- Just watch this, especially around 47 seconds. But i guess this AK47 was picked up after it was dropped by a fleeing soldier? If so, what was he fleeing from? A Red Shirt armed with sharp wit and a steely look?

I dont see him firing his weapon . Yes possibly red shirt have a security service and they are armed because in Thailand the culture ask for security foirce to be armed with live rounds . Kind of stupd . But if you are in charge of the security of a large group of civilians , why the heck would you start firing at soldiers ? Their job is to protect the red shirts not get them all killed !!!! I am sorry but it does not make sense ...

[pornsasi]

The link:

The man in black carrying the weapons was shown on the red stage a couple of days after.

Sorry, you can see the face? they have covered the face how can you see the face?

Do you want me to identify the guy and bring him to meet you before you will accept that there were reds firing at the army?

You accuse that they are RED not me, give an evidence about that.

You said that the same man shooting in this video was on the red stage not me, but the face is covered so how can you tell was on the red stage?

Exactly ....

[oceano]

Just because the USA has not formally added the red shirts to their list of Terrorist organizations in not evidence that they are not terrorists. Firstly unless they target American interests it is unlikely that step would be taken, and if it was it would take many months for it to happen. A meeting between Red representatives and an American official does not mean they could not be considered terrorists. US officials have met with leaders of the PLO and other organizations that could be considered terrorists to mediate in other circumstances.

"criminal acts, including against civilians, committed with the intent to cause death or serious bodily injury, or taking of hostages, with the purpose to provoke a state of terror in the general public or in a group of persons or particular persons, intimidate a population or compel a government or an international organization to do or to abstain from doing any act, which constitute offences within the scope of and as defined in the international conventions and protocols relating to terrorism, are under no circumstances justifiable by considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or other similar nature," UN resolution 1566 defining terrorism.

Seems like making a case that the reds have committed terrorism would be pretty simple. If you were honest with yourself.

You dont unswer to my previous question but never mind:

""criminal acts, including against civilians"

We are sure that there was the 10 april also civilians in the middle, only simple protestor, ok?

We are sure some soldiers they shoot whit live bullet ok?

We are sure they shoot not on the air ok?

If you shoot to someone is because you want kill him ok?

do you agree?

[dhrobertson]

The US has supported the Taliban, the US has supported Saddam Hussein, the US has supported Osama bin Laden, the US elected George Bush twice, do they seem like they are good judges of character? Eventually they'll figure out what the reds are really after. I bet the state department got off the plane in Bangkok and said "Wow Taiwan is hot".

Ha ha! Could not agree more.

US have done agreat job with middle east "road map".

Last thing we need is more lunatics taking over the asylum!

[whybother]

The link:

The man in black carrying the weapons was shown on the red stage a couple of days after.

Sorry, you can see the face? they have covered the face how can you see the face?

Do you want me to identify the guy and bring him to meet you before you will accept that there were reds firing at the army?

You accuse that they are RED not me, give an evidence about that.

You said that the same man shooting in this video was on the red stage not me, but the face is covered so how can you tell was on the red stage?

They are amongst the protesters, shooting at the army. That makes them part of the protesters in my book. You obviously want to see their red id card before you accept that they are on the red side. Up to you.

[Trickcyclist]

in the long run, everybody talks to everybody.

What a hypocrite! I can't believe the guy would even talk to these red terrorists.

[pornsasi]

Just because the USA has not formally added the red shirts to their list of Terrorist organizations in not evidence that they are not terrorists. Firstly unless they target American interests it is unlikely that step would be taken, and if it was it would take many months for it to happen. A meeting between Red representatives and an American official does not mean they could not be considered terrorists. US officials have met with leaders of the PLO and other organizations that could be considered terrorists to mediate in other circumstances.

"criminal acts, including against civilians, committed with the intent to cause death or serious bodily injury, or taking of hostages, with the purpose to provoke a state of terror in the general public or in a group of persons or particular persons, intimidate a population or compel a government or an international organization to do or to abstain from doing any act, which constitute offences within the scope of and as defined in the international conventions and protocols relating to terrorism, are under no circumstances justifiable by considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic, religious or other similar nature," UN resolution 1566 defining terrorism.

Seems like making a case that the reds have committed terrorism would be pretty simple. If you were honest with yourself.

You are mistaken . Many terrorists group that are not targetting american interest are IN their list of terrorist organisation . And then there is the EC with same set of rules . Because one protest against a PM elected by a parliament without a popular mandate and a PM that calls for state of emergency and suspend all medias that dont agree with him , does not make him a terrorist .

Else half the word would be terrorists ...

[lazurus]

The US has supported the Taliban, the US has supported Saddam Hussein, the US has supported Osama bin Laden, the US elected George Bush twice, do they seem like they are good judges of character? Eventually they'll figure out what the reds are really after. I bet the state department got off the plane in Bangkok and said "Wow Taiwan is hot".

So lazarus do you live in Thailand?

What do you do IF the red ( that are ALL terrorist) win the next election?

Yes I live here.

I would hope that the courts would take action and prosecute those guilty of all crimes committed during these protests, and hopefully those people would not be running for office in the fall. If the PTP were to win the next election it would certainly be unfortunate because all the red shirts will only be let down when they see how little will actually be done for them. Hopefully enough Thais are sick of the reds game and can see what damage it has done and the next government can be a coalition of parties interested in the good of the nation.

I however will not be protesting for new elections. I will not take part in any movement that will further damage Thailand. In a democracy if you don't like the outcome you have to wait for the next election and come up with better alternatives. Otherwise you end up with the circus we have now.

[oceano]

The US has supported the Taliban, the US has supported Saddam Hussein, the US has supported Osama bin Laden, the US elected George Bush twice, do they seem like they are good judges of character? Eventually they'll figure out what the reds are really after. I bet the state department got off the plane in Bangkok and said "Wow Taiwan is hot".

Thei are people work the land, work in company, work in clean room like yours when you go in one hotel, The REDS are the 90% like that, taliban are 99% violent people that kill in one time 100 people...a little bit different, US governament see this little difference, Us sometimes wrong, but tell me who can say " i never wrong?" only God i think.

[pornsasi]

They are amongst the protesters, shooting at the army. That makes them part of the protesters in my book. You obviously want to see their red id card before you accept that they are on the red side. Up to you.

Fine , someone next time take a shot gun , go near the red shirt and fire his weapon at army personel , then leave ... and then you can say he is red shirt

Well as we say there is no worse blind man then those who dont want to see .