Working Without A Permit.

[TizMe]

I'm living in Thailand on a Non-Im O visa, support of wife.

She owns her own business and we live in the "shop house". As I'm around the house most of the time, what is an acceptable amount of "work" that I can do for her without risking trouble with immigration?

Obviously I'm not going to be putting in a full days work every day, but is it ok if I just lend a hand when she is run off her feet. I've told her to employ another person, but there really isn't enough work to give someone a full time job.

I just feel lousy telling her that I cant help her at all, and so she has to work so hard.

[Khutan]

Thats a tricky one, I would seek legal advice on that.

I know if your wife has a proper business for the shop, she can apply for a W/P for you, but the details.

Good Luck

[Boatabike]

It is indeed a tricky one, a lot will depend on the immigration and your relationship with the neighbours. Most time immigration will turn a blind eye but if someone running a similar business to your wife’s takes it into there head to make a problem, immigration will have to pay you a visit. A guy I know who's wife runs a business was told he could not be seen in the office part of there house, he didn’t even work there, just doing his own thing in the air-con downstairs, instead of running 2 units upstairs and downstairs. This was in their one house, so as far as he was concerned he was just sitting in his living room; but someone complained to immigration and they had to follow it up! You would normally be given a warning before anything went further, but you know your area, your immigration people and your neighbours so use common sense. I got away with a lot in the past because i had good relations with my local imm. and tourist police, even when a group of locals tried to sign a paper to get me into trouble all I got was advanced warnings from both Imm and tourist police with no further follow up, I was lucky and I stopped doing what I had been doing straight away before they were forced into making it into a big problem. (The imm know me well and were very embarrassed to have to ask me to stop as they didn’t really have a problem with it.) Some of the people trying to make trouble I had known for 15 years, and yet because they deemed me to be stepping on toes they tried to make a problem for me, after it all died down they are great friends again, don’t rely on the fact that they are friends is the moral of that story..! You soon revert to being the forang again real quick, and it's the ones you know who are more likely to make the problem than the Immigration or police. In my humble opinion.

[Phil Clark]

I'm living in Thailand on a Non-Im O visa, support of wife.

She owns her own business and we live in the "shop house". As I'm around the house most of the time, what is an acceptable amount of "work" that I can do for her without risking trouble with immigration?

Obviously I'm not going to be putting in a full days work every day, but is it ok if I just lend a hand when she is run off her feet. I've told her to employ another person, but there really isn't enough work to give someone a full time job.

I just feel lousy telling her that I cant help her at all, and so she has to work so hard.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The simple answer as to what level of risk is acceptable can only be provided by you. How much do you value your current visa status?

Some Thai can be spiteful if they see a percieved farang supported business doing well.

Could your wife not organise some part time help as and when needed?

Best of luck, but watch your back.

[Totster]

There is NO acceptable risk. Like someone says, one jealous neighbour and your whole world comes crashing down, or you are a large sum of money less better off

Legal is the only way to go..... but you know this already

RE- the work permit, not sure that she would satisfy the crteria for having a Farang employee - maybe you both could fom a company with you as a director/employee, but this would cost money

totster

Edited June 11, 2005 by Totster

[terryp]

couple of years ago a guy was arrested in Phuket for helping his wife deliver Limes on their motorcycle to the market for sale

Another one playing guitar in a quiet pub out in the sticks was arrested as the tip jar was deamed as compensation for sevices

The big problem with most work permits is that you have to specify exactly the work location, even if you have a work permit for location A and are caught working in location B you will be arrested (if not specified on your Permit).

As crazy as it sounds if you have a permit for your work address and take your lap-top home to do some homework, you are breaking the conditions of your permit

[camerata]

RE- the work permit, not sure that she would satisfy the crteria for having a Farang employee - maybe you both could fom a company with you as a director/employee, but this would cost money.

Right. I'm pretty sure you can't get a work permit for a sole proprietorship business and it's very difficult for a limited partnership. I'm not sure what the situation is for Americans - I believe under the Treaty of Amity they are allowed to be the sole proprietor of a business themselves.

[sua yai]

Even if you've got a work permit for "the shop house", I've always looked at the situation thus:

Can you demonstrate that you can do the job/occupation better than a Thai person? If you can't then you're potentially on dodgy ground. IE, serving me with a beer.

[mbkudu]

Can you demonstrate that you can do the job/occupation better than a Thai person?

This is the reason English teachers get away with it. It is a thankless job that doesn't pay that much and it is a skill that helps Thai people advance themselves,

so teachers should not be hassled. I would guess from experience that at least half of the English teachers in Thailand, epecially Bangkok, are working under the radar. There is a big difference between the contributions of a go-go bar owner and an English teacher, no?

[expatinasia]

The non-Thai volunteers helping during the tsunami disaster were forced to get work permits. Doing anything that could possibly be conceived as taking employment from a Thai is very serious. You could be deported, classified "persona non gratia", and prevented from entering the Kingdom. Is that a risk that you and your wife are willing to accept?

[Nam Kao]

I just printed this thread, next time my wife asks me to do something i will

hand it to her

[Totster]

RE- the work permit, not sure that she would satisfy the crteria for having a Farang employee - maybe you both could fom a company with you as a director/employee, but this would cost money.

Right. I'm pretty sure you can't get a work permit for a sole proprietorship business and it's very difficult for a limited partnership. I'm not sure what the situation is for Americans - I believe under the Treaty of Amity they are allowed to be the sole proprietor of a business themselves.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

If they were to set up a company with directors etc... with the capital paid up and other criteria satisfied, I'm sure he could get a WP, lot of hassle though. (although i am no expert)

totster

[Zarkow]

Jokes aside...

...how does one solve this?

I mean, if a person cannot get a work permit for helping his wife...and the shop is where they live...what is the solution?

[Totster]

Jokes aside...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What jokes...?

totster

[mbkudu]

So, if I help out the wiff with dishes and dusting around the house when she's under the weather, do I need a work permit? I think domestic duties are a restricted occupation within Thai law. Looks like I'll just be watching telly, drinking beer and lounging about.

[george]

Looks like I'll just be watching telly, drinking beer and lounging about. 

According to Thai law, it's the safest. More info here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/288.0.html

[camel_jockey]

Start teaching english from "the shop house"

[mbkudu]

Start teaching english from "the shop house"

Or maybe sell peanuts from a portable wooden table?

[TizMe]

Thanks for all the replies.

Now all i need to do is convince Mrs TizMe that I'm not a lazy bastard, and that I'm just obeying the law...

[Old Bean]

Thanks for all the replies.

Now all i need to do is convince Mrs TizMe that I'm not a lazy bastard, and that I'm just obeying the law... 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Gosh what a frightening prospect to be thrown out of the country for DIY. Years ago I bought a new condo and needed a kitchen so built it myself; I was down at Atagan Prasit hasselling any one with a crosscut on a bench handy to cut down sheets of ply to fit them into the car, sawing and glueing in the carpark with curious fellow residents indulging my eccentricity but nobody "shopped"me. I didn't realize. I guess that's why golf clubs insist that you have a caddy, I wonder if I should discontinue cleaning my clubs.

[The Dan Sai Kid]

Can I be thrown out of Thailand for sewing a button on my shirt? Or perhaps for making my own dinner? Can I wash my car, or does that put a valet out of business?

God forbid I fill my own car up with petrol.

[Neeranam]

God forbid I fill my own car up with petrol.

Any particular reason?

[HarryHacker]

couple of years ago a guy was arrested in Phuket for helping his wife deliver Limes on their motorcycle to the market for sale

Another one playing guitar in a quiet pub out in the sticks was arrested as the tip jar was deamed as compensation for sevices

The big problem with most work permits is that you have to specify exactly the work location, even if you have a work permit for location A and are caught working in location B you will be arrested (if not specified on your Permit).

As crazy as it sounds if you have a permit for your work address and take your lap-top home to do some homework, you are breaking the conditions of your permit

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's interesting, so when I go to the airport/hotel to meet my companies clients from the real world, I'm breaking the strict rules of the WP.

....umm even when I'm on the p!ss with them and doing 'the tour' of Cowboy etc, which I consider work, also means I'm in the wrong, wow!

Unlike me to break rules.

Edited June 15, 2005 by HarryHacker

[bina]

wait a sec, u mean to tell me that if i move to thailand, live with partner, if i want to keep chickens pigeons etc as a hobby and i love to garden, keep a goat or two for my own milk etc, that would be considered work (me feeding cleanng etc the animals)... im so used to physical work i couldnt ever sit around watching tv and i dont drink etc....

this is a serious question i could not sit around all day doing nothing, so is do it yourself stuff considered work??

[camerata]

wait a sec, u mean to tell me that if i move to thailand, live with partner, if i want to keep chickens pigeons etc as a hobby and i love to garden, keep a goat or two for my own milk etc, that would be considered work (me feeding cleanng etc the animals)... im so used to physical work i couldnt ever sit around watching tv and i dont drink etc....

this is a serious question i could not sit around all day doing nothing, so is do it yourself stuff considered work??

Very unlikely. If your little enterprise turned into a major money-making deal and you pissed off the neighbours in some way, maybe someone would try calling the Labour Dept to make trouble for you. Otherwise, I seriously doubt it, especially if you are female and just basically helping your husband as any good wife would.

There have been a couple of weird, high-profile cases, such as when officials of a foreign chamber of commerce got into trouble for supposedly working without a work permit. As everyone knows, these people are volunteers working for the good of the chamber members but it was still seen as work for someone's benefit. The compromise solution was that they should get a second work permit for their volunteer work.

There are some business areas where there have to be some ground rules. I was told that foreign bar owners in Bangkok are not allowed to go behind the bar counter. They can sit with customers and give instructions to staff, but it's a fine if they are caught behind the bar.

On a farm or in a private house that isn't registered as a business, I doubt you'll have any problem.

[Nordlys]

I have an American friend who's an English teacaher in Japan and wants to come 'live' in Thailand on tourist visa for 3 - 6 months to see if he really likes and fits in here before deciding to move and settle down. Thing is, he doesn't have enough saving to sustain himself that long (even in Thailand). What is the risk of him getting caught for working w/o WP if he just teaches English as a private tutor to perhaps Japanese residents here at their home?

[camerata]

I have an American friend who's an English teacaher in Japan and wants to come 'live' in Thailand on tourist visa for 3 - 6 months to see if he really likes and fits in here before deciding to move and settle down.  Thing is, he doesn't have enough saving to sustain himself that long (even in Thailand).  What is the risk of him getting caught for working w/o WP if he just teaches English as a private tutor to perhaps Japanese residents here at their home?

Probably zero. That's exactly what I did many years ago. The only problem I had then was that after I switched to a non-imm B visa and had to get a tax clearance certificate, the revenue dept didn't believe I wasn't working while on the initial tourist visa. So I showed them a bunch of travellers cheques and said I started out using my own savings.

It might be difficult to get Japanese students now. After I moved out of the business, various language schools moved in and cornered that niche.

[Nordlys]

Probably zero. That's exactly what I did many years ago. The only problem I had then was that after I switched to a non-imm B visa and had to get a tax clearance certificate, the revenue dept didn't believe I wasn't working while on the initial tourist visa. So I showed them a bunch of travellers cheques and said I started out using my own savings.

It might be difficult to get Japanese students now. After I moved out of the business, various language schools moved in and cornered that niche.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Thanks camerata.

I'll refer this thread to my friend in Japan.

Yes, there are many language schools in BKK these days, many of them targeting expat Japanese, some of them apparently turned into social club for wives of Japanese expat businessmen. I still see many farang teachers running ads in classified ad section of various Japaense free papers, don't know what the chances of them finding students though. Any idea what is the average tutorial fee you can charge per hour these days (provided you are a farang and a native speaker)?

[camerata]

Any idea what is the average tutorial fee you can charge per hour these days (provided you are a farang and a native speaker)?

No idea, really. 20 years ago I was charging 200-250 baht an hour but it must be more than double that now. Bear in mind that there are a lot of expenses and that your friend isn't likely to get more than 20 hours per week. More than half of my students wanted me to teach at their homes, which meant some travel expenses and a lot of travel time. That's one reason it's difficult to fit in more than 20 hours a week, even working Monday to Saturday and up to 9pm.

The biggest expense is that you need a respectable apartment in the lower Sukhumvit area and not too difficult to find. Your friend will probably have to start with the students nobody else wants - the kids (I once had a lady call me and ask me to teach her 2-year-old!) and the people who live in awkward places to get to. Be sure to get the money in advance each month otherwise people will keep disappearing and income will be up and down.

[Slipperysid]

So, if I help out the wiff with dishes and dusting around the house when she's under the weather, do I need a work permit? I think domestic duties are a restricted occupation within Thai law. Looks like I'll just be watching telly, drinking beer and lounging about. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Nothing new there then ! lol