More Bloodshed In Bangkok As Red Siege Continues

[balou]

I see you are still missing the point rixalex.......

It is the perception of who shot him that fuels emotions.......

Fact is not always the instigator.......and since his shooting it appears the violence has increased and spread somewhat

So proof is not required - the resulting additional violence is either connected to the shooting, or to the increased government actions.....which is it to be??

It's you that has missed the point. FC stated that soldiers were shooting at people when they were under no direct threat. I disputed that and asked him how he could possibly know from where he was sitting what threat they were under. He gave the example of SD's shooting, but whatever suspicions people have, at this stage nobody knows who fired the shot.

In terms of what you say about perceptions not facts fueling emotions, i agree.

As to whether things have got uglier since SD's shooting than they otherwise would have done, i'm not convinced.

As well many of the soldiers are almost kids and don't like to die, it is very easy to overreact in such situations. They should not be blamed.

and thanks Thaksin and Sondhi for this.

hope these bastards will burn in hel_l

[Jerrytheyoung]

There have been a few suggestion that armoured vehicles should be used. Consider this; tanks are equipped with a main gun (more or less light artillery) which fires an explosive round which makes a M-79 look like a kiddies toy. Both tanks and many APCs also carry quite heavy machine-guns.

Tomas' wall was pierced by a rifle bullet. Heavy calibre machine-guns will do a he-ll of a lot worse. Like Tomas, there are other residents still in their homes.

Neither the residents or the gov't want to see the start of wholesale slaughter, so leave the armour in the bases until it is time for an assault on the barriers.

In these situations, an approaching tank is a more of a psychological weapon (it scares the crap out of people), you don't actually have to start using the main gun.

A suggestion to anyone near the combat zone. Draw your curtains on the side nearest the fighting and if possible, hang blankets over the windows. It might sound silly, but a hanging heavy cloth can absorb most or all the KE of a bullet.

The whole point about tanks is not the main gun. The fact is that they are track laying vehicles and would not notice the barricades. I don't know if armoured bulldozers are available.

two things about Armored Vehicles:

1- Some are not track laying but with tyres, as some experts of this forum have already explained, they can be stopped by razor wires

2- Eastern Europe experience: in street fighting, battle tanks (Except few models) are easily converted in "frying pans' with cocktail molotov or gasoline bottles thrown, once the leaders are blocked it is useless except if you do not hesitate to destroy properties around for making your way. In the current situation, the account of deaths will be very heavy on both sides.

[iciparis]

What a load of tosh, paid terrorists, evil billionaires, using women and children as a human shield

These are just your opinions. Respectable news stations try to stick to the facts which is why none of your content is reflected there.

Everyone knows the definition of terrorist by now so no need to go there and yes they are paid so what else can we call it? Do you think the blackshirts are out there for free? red shirt leaders wont get a big pay day if they pull this off? New stations report action and drama mate or a "good story" that's how they pay the bills. What fantasy land have you been living in where journos only report the facts? Fact: red shirt protesters have been paid and now the really nice part where payments are now being postponed to keep them staying there to BE USED AS HUMAN SHIELDS and this has been reported you just don't want to accept it for whatever reason?

Actually there is one very good way of stopping them being used as human shields.

You get say 5000 soldiers and they go and clear out the camp unarmed. It is basically a rabble with lots of women and children. If the Reds choose to shoot unarmed soldiers then they will never be forgiven, I believe, by the Thais. If the soldiers go in there fully armed there is bound to be bloodshed. There are only about 3000 there, so professional soldiers should be able to clear the site. I cant believe even the most radical of Reds leaders would order the shooting of unarmed soldiers.

90% are innocent and the other 10% cannot justify violence against an orderly but unarmed force to end the protest.

Good idea, do you voleneet to go in with me and the army to secure the safety??

if so I will give you my contact number, only you and me will be armed in case of some lady tries to trow palaa to us

[neverdie]

At least some good news ...

-- The Nation

Children, women, elderly move to Pathumwanaram Temple

At 3 pm Sunday, children, women and elderly people started moving from the Rajprasong rally site to the Pathumwanaram Temple, Thai PBS reported.

They packed their personal things and headed to the temple.

The evacuation of the children, women and elderly started after the red-shirt leaders announced on the stage that they would not use children, women and elderly as human shields.

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[pimay11]

To have sharpshooters taking head shots at people presenting them no direct threat or actual bodily harm is simply escalating this and not solving it.

From your keyboard, how are you possibly able to ascertain that the soldiers are under no direct threat?

Look at Sa Daeng he was no threat he was being interviewed not armed no threat at all

No threat at all

[humfurry]

To all you posters saying reds are dangerous terrorists, can you explain to me why, according to the erawan medical centre there have been no military deaths.

http://us.asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-p...led-and-injured

http://www.ems.bangkok.go.th/report/listdead%2014.00.pdf

Yes, they are not willing to be shot at.

[Chunky1]

http://twitpic.com/1mvgri

Harry Potter in Red Camp.

[yoshiwara]

I see you are still missing the point rixalex.......

It is the perception of who shot him that fuels emotions.......

Fact is not always the instigator.......and since his shooting it appears the violence has increased and spread somewhat

So proof is not required - the resulting additional violence is either connected to the shooting, or to the increased government actions.....which is it to be??

It's you that has missed the point. FC stated that soldiers were shooting at people when they were under no direct threat. I disputed that and asked him how he could possibly know from where he was sitting what threat they were under. He gave the example of SD's shooting, but whatever suspicions people have, at this stage nobody knows who fired the shot.

In terms of what you say about perceptions not facts fueling emotions, i agree.

As to whether things have got uglier since SD's shooting than they otherwise would have done, i'm not convinced.

Then it is the actions of the government who have caused the contained area to spill out onto the street in uncontrolled violence.......nice one rixalex.....

Hello, its the reds as civilians/unarmed innocents/peaceful demonstrators club on the move.

Red apologists trying to keep their act together as the ship goes down.

[kissdani]

Sadly the child was collateral damage because he ignored warnings to leave the area.

Saying he was targeted by soldiers is a vicious and useless lie, since the truth IS known.

A ten years old ignored the warnings???

Collateral damage is just another word for killing of innocent civilians. It is military lingua, the languages of murderers. Not all of us here are soldiers or veterans, so please stick to the civilian word for it: MURDER.

Unintentional killing of innocent civilians.

Or 3rd degree manslaughter, death by misadvanture, accidental death, death during public inssurection.

Bottom line it wasn't intentional murder.

If the Reds obeyed the laws of Thailand,

the situation that caused this childs death would never have transpired.

If you fire live rounds and people die is that not an accident. This outcome is almost clear before someone pulled the trigger. You release a deadly bullet and this bullet hit somebody ot can kill this person.

Will not happen at a shooting range with all safety rules. But if you do it in the middle of the road in the inner city, that outcome is predictable and not an accident. Claiming something else is just whitewashing the fact.

---

Just a couple of ambulance cars down the road again, guess a few more 'terrorists' have been taken down.

[LuckyLew]

Who else would shoot him

Why would army shoot him?

Why would reds shoot him?

Why would anybody shoot him?

It is all speculation without any proof

[dttk0009]

When they are high up and 100's of meters away from people with slingshots I think its safe to say they are not under much threat..

They might not be, but the people on the receiving end of the slingshots are.

Soldiers' job is not only to protect his own arse you know?

To be fair, those slingshots that we see the red shirts using on tv are not even hunting grade. They're the toy models and as far as I'm concerned, not illegal or considered a weapon. Blowing someone's head off for walking around with one of those seems a little disproportionate to me, but maybe I'm just thinking too clearly here.

[iciparis]

At least some good news ...

-- The Nation

Children, women, elderly move to Pathumwanaram Temple

At 3 pm Sunday, children, women and elderly people started moving from the Rajprasong rally site to the Pathumwanaram Temple, Thai PBS reported.

They packed their personal things and headed to the temple.

The evacuation of the children, women and elderly started after the red-shirt leaders announced on the stage that they would not use children, women and elderly as human shields.

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

^{And they have boobytrapped the temple in case the women and children try to get out, then they can blame our army for a massacare}

[DLock]

To all you posters saying reds are dangerous terrorists, can you explain to me why, according to the erawan medical centre there have been no military deaths.

http://us.asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-p...led-and-injured

http://www.ems.bangkok.go.th/report/listdead%2014.00.pdf

Quite simple really.

Because the are doing an outstanding tactical job of containing the Red rabble and will eventually starve them out and reduce their will to fight.

No need to expose themselves and potentially take casualties. Their strategy will prevail.

I applaud their restraint. It could have been much, much worse yet there will be many more deaths before the Reds realize you should never take a bamboo stick to a gunfight.

Aim high boys...and keep your heads down.

[seahorse]

Indiscriminate firing my foot! Or his as the case may be.

[ChouDoufu]

To all you posters saying reds are dangerous terrorists, can you explain to me why, according to the erawan medical centre there have been no military deaths.

could be that the troops are better trained.

could be they're not hopped up on stimulants.

could be that they are staying behind their barricades waiting for the 'terrorists' to come to them.

[Old Man River]

To all you posters saying reds are dangerous terrorists, can you explain to me why, according to the erawan medical centre there have been no military deaths.

http://us.asiancorrespondent.com/bangkok-p...led-and-injured

http://www.ems.bangkok.go.th/report/listdead%2014.00.pdf

Quite simple really.

Because the are doing an outstanding tactical job of containing the Red rabble and will eventually starve them out and reduce their will to fight.

No need to expose themselves and potentially take casualties. Their strategy will prevail.

I applaud their restraint. It could have been much, much worse yet there will be many more deaths before the Reds realize you should never take a bamboo stick to a gunfight.

Aim high boys...and keep your heads down.

Or, the military is not reporting their dead and injured. It wouldn't be the first time.

[473geo]

I see you are still missing the point rixalex.......

It is the perception of who shot him that fuels emotions.......

Fact is not always the instigator.......and since his shooting it appears the violence has increased and spread somewhat

So proof is not required - the resulting additional violence is either connected to the shooting, or to the increased government actions.....which is it to be??

It's you that has missed the point. FC stated that soldiers were shooting at people when they were under no direct threat. I disputed that and asked him how he could possibly know from where he was sitting what threat they were under. He gave the example of SD's shooting, but whatever suspicions people have, at this stage nobody knows who fired the shot.

In terms of what you say about perceptions not facts fueling emotions, i agree.

As to whether things have got uglier since SD's shooting than they otherwise would have done, i'm not convinced.

Then it is the actions of the government who have caused the contained area to spill out onto the street in uncontrolled violence.......nice one rixalex.....

Hello, its the reds as civilians/unarmed innocents/peaceful demonstrators club on the move.

Red apologists trying to keep their act together as the ship goes down.

Go troll somewhere else You have not made any reasonable comment I would wish to respond to......bye....

[beejoir]

Some photos of Mordor taken today between 1-2pm.

http://img210.imageshack.us/i/dsc0284x.jpg/

http://img153.imageshack.us/i/dsc0276j.jpg/

http://img10.imageshack.us/i/dsc0271t.jpg/

http://img412.imageshack.us/i/dsc0259v.jpg/

http://img291.imageshack.us/i/dsc0256k.jpg/

http://img185.imageshack.us/i/dsc0190q.jpg/

http://img594.imageshack.us/i/dsc0150v.jpg/

http://img189.imageshack.us/i/dsc0126xz.jpg/

http://img63.imageshack.us/i/dsc0083st.jpg/

http://img198.imageshack.us/i/dsc0041lo.jpg/

http://img64.imageshack.us/i/dsc0055zv.jpg/

Thanks for the pics... what are you shooting with? I like really the wide angle low shot.... 2nd pic I think.

Cheers, Hummy

Just a really really old fuc_ked up Nikon D70 with a battered scratched old manual 16mm nikkor fish eye.... it was the shit 7years ago now its just shit, but ok to sling around your shoulder when out and about on the bike!

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[agord]

I don't think you can say 'most' people back what the military are doing, it's 51% of the facists who are registered on HERE. The people who make up this figure are more than likely to be white, male and people who have never experienced REAL poverty in their lives. They call the reds 'terrorists' when they are just normal people fighting for what they believe in. Yes, they are getting paid, so what? It's a small amount and since they had to leave their homes for a long time they need money to survive. YES, there are women and children and elderly people in the camp, i've seen it with my own eyes, for them to be there it just shows how fed up they are with their lives. How can anyone condone shooting innocent people? MANY farangs are pro red shirt and this shocks and DISGUSTS me, but it's not surprising as most of the farangs who live out here are male and everything 'ist' and 'ic' under the sun to include racist, chauvinist, homophobic, facist PIGS. It's they who should be rounded up and shot.

They are paid....Are you paid for posting as well? Or do you really believe that shooting M79 will change the world so everyone is complete equal (like in the paradise North Korea)

I like how gatecrasher uses 'facist pigs' in one sentence and "it's they who should be rounded up and shot" in the next

Very normal I would say. When you look what fascists did and what communists like Stalin or Mao did, than you won't find so much difference......

missed the point mate. She is against the actions of so called facist pigs and wants them to be rounded up and shot. hmmmmmm?

[Insight]

Black shirts gas stand side of Rama4. Crossfire between black and Thai army.

....

Black shirts like guy this side too. Holding quite big dynamite thing.

....

Reds (black) force all journalists to out down camera with force. They are Quite upset. Do not want to show what they do .

....

Black shirts, gas station side of Rama4 frontline. Holding rifle.

All from the last 30mins. Really hope people can get pics.

[elcent]

More good news ...

-- The Nation

NGO group organises home-going assistance

A group is organising buses to help transport protesters to bus terminals so that they can go home.

The group, "volunteers to help protesters return home", allowed protesters to register at the National Stadium for help.

The group will transport the protesters to bus terminals and buy them bus tickets for going home.

The last bus will leave the National Stadium at 4:30 pm.

Protesters can call 086-381-4386 and 081-632-4353 for more information.

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[jdinasia]

To have sharpshooters taking head shots at people presenting them no direct threat or actual bodily harm is simply escalating this and not solving it.

From your keyboard, how are you possibly able to ascertain that the soldiers are under no direct threat?

Look at Sa Daeng he was no threat he was being interviewed not armed no threat at all

Not armed? No threat? LOL ... brainwashed!

sae daeng was ALWAYS armed when in uniform. His uniform included the pins from grenades. The implication of the use of those grenades is clear.

Where does it say he was unarmed?

Sae Daeng had threatened the government. His second (Arsiaman) had declared WAR on the government. Sae Daeng was a fair target ---- but many people had reason to kill Sae daeng.

The MAIN issue is that we are unsure of WHO killed Sae Daeng. The reports were that he was shot from INSIDE red territory.

[yoshiwara]

When they are high up and 100's of meters away from people with slingshots I think its safe to say they are not under much threat..

They might not be, but the people on the receiving end of the slingshots are.

Soldiers' job is not only to protect his own arse you know?

To be fair, those slingshots that we see the red shirts using on tv are not even hunting grade. They're the toy models and as far as I'm concerned, not illegal or considered a weapon. Blowing someone's head off for walking around with one of those seems a little disproportionate to me, but maybe I'm just thinking too clearly here.

What a silly argument.

Even a kitchen knife is a weapon in a riot.

The slingshots are being used alongside those who have guns.

You will have to think again for a better pro-red rioter defence.

[OzMick]

My wife actually HATES THAKSIN with a passion and also hates the red shirts

You can clearly see what is happening on CNN BBC etc good reporting with very clear pcitures of thai military hiding behind wall under NO THREAT emptying there clips

Plain for the world to see and then pictures of dead civilians and kids

You have to be Chiang Mai Fun's alter ego!

[ChouDoufu]

two things about Armored Vehicles: 1- Some are not track laying but with tyres, as some experts of this forum have already explained, they can be stopped by razor wires Eastern Europe experience: in street fighting, battle tanks (Except few models) are easily converted in "frying pans' with cocktail molotov or gasoline bottles thrown, once the leaders are blocked it is useless except if you do not hesitate to destroy properties around for making your way. In the current situation, the account of deaths will be very heavy on both sides.

one other consideration:

sah daeng was responsible for defense and counter-measures at the protest site.

could be he set up some surprises for oncoming armored vehicles.

given he'd supplied the grenades and explosives, would it not be probably that

he also had provided training on the construction and placement of ied's?

[deepskyfreak]

So we have one armed blackshirt.. One guy shooting a Grenade.. And the army guys in the truck..

Versus..

100's possibly 1000's of youtube clips of army firing, including BBC, Al Jazera, CNN, and 100's of blogers and people on the street..

Your point is...that you are surprised that the military is using weapons, as announced, against criminals?

UNARMED protesters Journalists etc you can see the video of them being shot unarmed you cannot deny it even shot while already hit and shot 2 more times while on the ground

NO EXCUSE

Have you ever been in the armed service? Or with the police force or even security guard?

Fired a rifle?

A black-clad man crawling behind cover at a distance with other men (that actively throw things at the soldiers etc) isn't easily IDed as a journalist!

If he was more than a 'freelancer' he would have done what CNN and other outlets reporters did, sport a blue helmet and vest...

There are rules to bring the situation back to normal. The unarmed civilians are criminals. The police and military are trying to protect public property and their rule is: Don't torch or destroy it and stay away from zones that we created to disengage clashing people/forces and bring back a calm situation.

The thugs ignore those orders. So they are shot at, as announced by the military. No Excuse.

It is the red leaders' fault not to distance themselves from those criminals in the first place. They allowed them in, now they cannot control them. They even think that their destructive behavior is good for the cause.

Never in history have riots like this one brought about a sustainable improvement of a situation.

I think you all live in a dream world, or you are too preoccupied with tit-for-tat revenge and hatred to see the big picture.

This is not a revolution where 2,000,000 people demand justified change - this is a riot instigated by a frustrated, revenge-seeking billionaire who manages to drag along narrow-minded "leaders of the poor" who promise their supporters a paradise in Thailand by getting rid of the elite. They are so blind that they do not even realize that ALL their supporters in the background are just another rich elite, waiting for the cake to be split up between them.

I know real leaders of the poor, such as Krutee Roigaew of Chiang Rai. He and his team have managed to bring change to communities in the North - unarmed, using existing laws, uniting people peacefully for their cause and by creating an understanding of their wishes (with authorities). And guess what - it works, slowly, but it works.

Riots and hardline views are tools that only create resistance. The reds should clean up the mess out in their home-provinces first before going to BKK and creating trouble there.

95% of you folks who blast your unrealistic views into the air in this forum neither speak the language, nor have they worked for many years in Thailand or have a clear picture of what was going on during Thaksins rule. You only know the 30-Baht scheme. And the pointless throwing away of a million Baht for every Tumbon, a measure which has brought nothing to sustainably improve communities. Wow. You have no clue how vote-buying worked, how opposition leaders were removed, TV-Channels were taken over by eliminating critical journalists, tax-money used to finance projects of his firms, expensive short-term measures ntroduced in rural areas but with no follow-up mainenance of the projects, lawyers killed for acting against land-grabs by Thaksins cronies, etc, etc...

Live, learn and look around for a little longer before you decide if you really support that.

[humfurry]

Some photos of Mordor taken today between 1-2pm.

http://img210.imageshack.us/i/dsc0284x.jpg/

http://img153.imageshack.us/i/dsc0276j.jpg/

http://img10.imageshack.us/i/dsc0271t.jpg/

http://img412.imageshack.us/i/dsc0259v.jpg/

http://img291.imageshack.us/i/dsc0256k.jpg/

http://img185.imageshack.us/i/dsc0190q.jpg/

http://img594.imageshack.us/i/dsc0150v.jpg/

http://img189.imageshack.us/i/dsc0126xz.jpg/

http://img63.imageshack.us/i/dsc0083st.jpg/

http://img198.imageshack.us/i/dsc0041lo.jpg/

http://img64.imageshack.us/i/dsc0055zv.jpg/

Thanks for the pics... what are you shooting with? I like really the wide angle low shot.... 2nd pic I think.

Cheers, Hummy

Just a really really old fuc_ked up Nikon D70 with a battered scratched old manual 16mm nikkor fish eye.... it was the shit 7years ago now its just shit, but ok to sling around your shoulder when out and about on the bike!

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Ya... I just got a D90...and what you said about the motorcycles is my biggest fear. I was looking for a wide angel and just curious as to what you were using. You've got some good shots there.

Cheers, Hummy

[yoshiwara]

My wife actually HATES THAKSIN with a passion and also hates the red shirts

You can clearly see what is happening on CNN BBC etc good reporting with very clear pcitures of thai military hiding behind wall under NO THREAT emptying there clips

Plain for the world to see and then pictures of dead civilians and kids

You have to be Chiang Mai Fun's alter ego!

Like the other red apologists he is desperately pushing the red rioters as innocent civilians story.

Why?

Because the reds are losing and they need time for a cease-fire.

[Netfan]

Who else would shoot him

Why would army shoot him?

Why would reds shoot him?

Why would anybody shoot him?

It is all speculation without any proof

He had more than a few enemies, including the red leaders he was about to stab in the back- Thaksin had given the okay to have a little coup amongst the leadership to get rid of those who wanted compromise to avoid further bloodshed. Couldn't have had that happen, right?

[dhrobertson]

There have been a few suggestion that armoured vehicles should be used. Consider this; tanks are equipped with a main gun (more or less light artillery) which fires an explosive round which makes a M-79 look like a kiddies toy. Both tanks and many APCs also carry quite heavy machine-guns.

Tomas' wall was pierced by a rifle bullet. Heavy calibre machine-guns will do a he-ll of a lot worse. Like Tomas, there are other residents still in their homes.

Neither the residents or the gov't want to see the start of wholesale slaughter, so leave the armour in the bases until it is time for an assault on the barriers.

In these situations, an approaching tank is a more of a psychological weapon (it scares the crap out of people), you don't actually have to start using the main gun.

A suggestion to anyone near the combat zone. Draw your curtains on the side nearest the fighting and if possible, hang blankets over the windows. It might sound silly, but a hanging heavy cloth can absorb most or all the KE of a bullet.

The whole point about tanks is not the main gun. The fact is that they are track laying vehicles and would not notice the barricades. I don't know if armoured bulldozers are available.

two things about Armored Vehicles:

1- Some are not track laying but with tyres, as some experts of this forum have already explained, they can be stopped by razor wires

2- Eastern Europe experience: in street fighting, battle tanks (Except few models) are easily converted in "frying pans' with cocktail molotov or gasoline bottles thrown, once the leaders are blocked it is useless except if you do not hesitate to destroy properties around for making your way. In the current situation, the account of deaths will be very heavy on both sides.

As must be obvious, I know nothing of military matters!

However, "track laying vehicles" was the point. It seems remarkably easy to stop APCs. Are Moletov cocktails still effective against modern tanks? No idea!

From a laymans point of view, it would seem that demolition of the barriers on a broad front would be a good move.

Also, I would run a mile from a tank.

By the way, is it correct that helicopters are considered beyond the pale because of the way they were used in the 90s?