More Bloodshed In Bangkok As Red Siege Continues

[lungmi]

There really is only one answer that doesn't need more explaining unless you are a paranoid nut job who is against law and order and that simply is that they are trying to do this with the least loss of life and property .... including their own. You can get more into specifics but that is the bottom line.

the government's refusal to grant general amnesty has done wonders for law and order in bangkok in the last four days, hasnt it?

sometimes, in the false pursuit of law and order, lawlessness and chaos are borne.

Yes, pigs come out of the earth.

[tgw]

That baby shouldn't be there in the first place, you're right. But also:

Nobody shooting at the baby = baby not human shield.

OMG - did you just say that unless someone actually physically shots the baby it is not a human shield?

Prediction ... you will soon be using the Ignore feature.

the iggy button should be reachable in one click, I'm tired of doing so much navigation to put simpletons on ignore.

[TheOldWolf]

Thai TV now showing red shirt who shot soldier after other reds pulled from truck

I watched this video, it is revolting!

The soldier pulled from the truck was unarmed, removed his hat, waied everyone before being beaten and shot!!!

Explain that, Lilkitty!

Was he really shot? There was no army death or injury reported in the area of Din Daeng on the day this happened. This didn't happen today or yesterday. The video is several days old. Why didn't the army, who are always keeping everyone up to date with army deaths and injuries, report this? In my opinion, the soldier simply "played dead". That's just my opinion. Please feel free to give an explanation though on why the army didn't report this until today. The video has been on YouTube for nearly a week.

But if he is "only" dangerous injured, you defend the action?

[dttk0009]

This thread desperately needs a lock.

[TAWP]

Nobody shooting at the baby = baby not human shield.

OMG - did you just say that unless someone actually physically shots the baby it is not a human shield?

Sorry, should have said:

Nobody pointing a gun at the baby = baby not human shield.

The US complained when Saddam used human shields around their nuclear facilities. Are you saying that since the airplanes wasn't in the air and the buildings locked on radar for the rockets, the US could not complain about the fact?

Your arguments are very 'out there'.

The existence of a human shield is often to clearly discourage the aiming of a gun in that direction...

[lilkitty]

Thai TV now showing red shirt who shot soldier after other reds pulled from truck

I watched this video, it is revolting!

The soldier pulled from the truck was unarmed, removed his hat, waied everyone before being beaten and shot!!!

Explain that, Lilkitty!

Was he really shot? There was no army death or injury reported in the area of Din Daeng on the day this happened. This didn't happen today or yesterday. The video is several days old. Why didn't the army, who are always keeping everyone up to date with army deaths and injuries, report this? In my opinion, the soldier simply "played dead". That's just my opinion. Please feel free to give an explanation though on why the army didn't report this until today. The video has been on YouTube for nearly a week.

But if he is "only" dangerous injured, you defend the action?

No, of course I don't. I don't support violence from either side. All I'm saying is that there has been no injury reported from the army in this area on that day, and neither the next day, until today when the clip was shown. And it has been on YouTube for nearly a week.

[haroldc]

Red Shirt use BABY as human SHIELD.MP4

That baby shouldn't be there in the first place, you're right. But also:

Nobody shooting at the baby = baby not human shield.

Please don't tell me you think a human shield is used to TAKE the bullets first

like a shield in a sword fight???

The point of using a Human Shield is to prevent an attack,

by playing on the humanity of your opponent to NOT attack,

BECAUSE the human shield is there.

It is a truly evil act.

You can abuse them completely, because they still have a heart...

thank you

[jcbangkok]

Map showing new Red Shirt Rally Stage in Khlong Toei http://bit.ly/cBideG - 1000's of Reds there already! /via @richardBarrow

Is it me or is the army not really making any progress? Instead of just having a stage at Rajprasong, they now have 2 stages, another one set-up at Klong Toei, also with thousands of red shirts, probably also being fortified with bamboo sticks and tyres. It looks like the attempt to make them "smaller" has just "expanded" them.

Sadly, I have to agree with you

If you think about it ... they have taken over 300 people out of action including those who are now in jail. And they have done it without bringing any force into the illegal red mob ... these criminals are coming to them.

Urban combat in populated areas is extremely hard for any caring authority especially when you have a violent criminal group using kids and elderly as human shields. Imagine what would happen if they entered the criminal fortress with all the malls and such in the area. These place would end up being burnt to the ground and you would not be able to send in firefighters until all the terrorists were taken out of the game.

So, it is not going to be a fast paced action ... at least this first stage of getting rid of what appears to be largely violent yaa baa user types. They have been working on clearing the kids and elderly from the seized area of BKK and I would imagine regardless of them moving or not after the uncountable number of warnings, requests and demands that the army will eventually move on the fortress .. maybe sooner than we think or maybe not for another week as long as they can keep taking people out of action this way.

[seahorse]

First they are not terrorists

Second they dont have machine guns .

Third if they had machine guns you would see tens of soldiers killed

Please dont alter the truth . Thank you

PS : Or if they have machine guns they dont use them , which comes to the same

as not having them

They don't need machine guns - they have M79 grenade launchers! Terrorists!

Don't have machine guns? repeat that after watching this

red shirt weapons

Not terrorists? Pah!

They're conserving their ammunition. They are surrounded. Now their tactics are to surround the army with reds. They are fighting a street guerrilla war. Why do you think the army isn't rushing in?

Thaksin has enough money to pay for mercenaries like Seh Daeng. Surely he could find unemployed expert military strategists from somewhere else. Just a thought.

[tgw]

Thai TV now showing red shirt who shot soldier after other reds pulled from truck

I watched this video, it is revolting!

The soldier pulled from the truck was unarmed, removed his hat, waied everyone before being beaten and shot!!!

Explain that, Lilkitty!

Was he really shot? There was no army death or injury reported in the area of Din Daeng on the day this happened. This didn't happen today or yesterday. The video is several days old. Why didn't the army, who are always keeping everyone up to date with army deaths and injuries, report this? In my opinion, the soldier simply "played dead". That's just my opinion. Please feel free to give an explanation though on why the army didn't report this until today. The video has been on YouTube for nearly a week.

the vid was shot on 15th May.

if the soldier wasn't shot, why did several people carry him to an ambulance?

reporting by army: I don't know, maybe they stopped the reporting of wounded soldiers to give an impression of invincibility. In the vid I am under the impression that he wore a flak vest. Maybe that saved his life.

[whybother]

How many people live in and around Khon Kaen?

Update: 1,000 reds Khon Kaen provincial hall [in northeast Thailand], ''much anger'' says eyewitness. /via @karmanomad

And they can only get 1,000 people to protest? I thought this was RED centre.

[hammered]

Red Shirt use BABY as human SHIELD.MP4

That baby shouldn't be there in the first place, you're right. But also:

Nobody shooting at the baby = baby not human shield.

Please don't tell me you think a human shield is used to TAKE the bullets first

like a shield in a sword fight???

The point of using a Human Shield is to prevent an attack,

by playing on the humanity of your opponent to NOT attack,

BECAUSE the human shield is there.

It is a truly evil act.

You can abuse them completely, because they still have a heart...

thank you

This is truly evil. Does this kid have parents or just callous monsters willing to use him for anything

[naughtybadfurrimunki]

That baby shouldn't be there in the first place, you're right. But also:

Nobody shooting at the baby = baby not human shield.

OMG - did you just say that unless someone actually physically shots the baby it is not a human shield?

Prediction ... you will soon be using the Ignore feature.

the iggy button should be reachable in one click, I'm tired of doing so much navigation to put simpletons on ignore.

agree wholeheartedly

[whybother]

Thai TV now showing red shirt who shot soldier after other reds pulled from truck

I watched this video, it is revolting!

The soldier pulled from the truck was unarmed, removed his hat, waied everyone before being beaten and shot!!!

Explain that, Lilkitty!

Was he really shot? There was no army death or injury reported in the area of Din Daeng on the day this happened. This didn't happen today or yesterday. The video is several days old. Why didn't the army, who are always keeping everyone up to date with army deaths and injuries, report this? In my opinion, the soldier simply "played dead". That's just my opinion. Please feel free to give an explanation though on why the army didn't report this until today. The video has been on YouTube for nearly a week.

Yep. He was playing dead. And the reds around him were playing along. All staged.

The guy reported dead was a navy guy. The video wasn't a navy guy. Which probably means the guy that the reds shot isn't dead.

[haveaniceday]

Does anybody of a link?

Can't help but feel sad that in the next 24hrsif no breakthrough, alot of people will have seen their last sunset tonight. Lets just hope not.

Thai TV now showing red shirt who shot soldier after other reds pulled from truck

I watched this video, it is revolting!

The soldier pulled from the truck was unarmed, removed his hat, waied everyone before being beaten and shot!!!

Explain that, Lilkitty!

[VictorMeldrewBKK]

Does anybody of a link?

Can't help but feel sad that in the next 24hrsif no breakthrough, alot of people will have seen their last sunset tonight. Lets just hope not.

Thai TV now showing red shirt who shot soldier after other reds pulled from truck

I watched this video, it is revolting!

The soldier pulled from the truck was unarmed, removed his hat, waied everyone before being beaten and shot!!!

Explain that, Lilkitty!

here's a link

http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-444464

Edited May 17, 2010 by VictorMeldrewBKK

[rogerdee123]

How many people live in and around Khon Kaen?

Update: 1,000 reds Khon Kaen provincial hall [in northeast Thailand], ''much anger'' says eyewitness. /via @karmanomad

And they can only get 1,000 people to protest? I thought this was RED centre.

Lucky Khon Kaen! The KK population should be overjoyed that this small group of "peaceful protestors" are assembling to discuss turning that city into another burning hel_l like they have in Bangkok. Will these people really burn their own city I wonder? THis is the heart of Red Shirt country. Are the Reds stupid enough to do this in their own constituency? Yes I guess so.

[tgw]

The government must ask all citizens who want these protests to end to hang white or blue cloth from their windows.

Maybe the reds will be shocked at how much people actually want peace.

[Thai at Heart]

How many people live in and around Khon Kaen?

Update: 1,000 reds Khon Kaen provincial hall [in northeast Thailand], ''much anger'' says eyewitness. /via @karmanomad

And they can only get 1,000 people to protest? I thought this was RED centre.

Lucky Khon Kaen! The KK population should be overjoyed that this small group of "peaceful protestors" are assembling to discuss turning that city into another burning hel_l like they have in Bangkok. Will these people really burn their own city I wonder? THis is the heart of Red Shirt country. Are the Reds stupid enough to do this in their own constituency? Yes I guess so.

They have a get together with a projector and stage most nights very near city hall. Has been going on for months and months. Whether they have walked over to city hall I don't know.

[rogerx007]

Anybody looking for balanced updates on what actually happening shud check Bangkokpundit on twitter...

but Bloodthirsty, video game induced world view carrying, 60 and up year old KIDS mite be disappointed with balanced reporting...

[noahvail]

Ok, here's another:

Lots of question have been asked how it was that for a couple of days, no army personnel were killed, but red shirt protesters were killed.

I didn't see a post that said well, the red shirt protesters are out there in shorts and a t-shirt, while the army guys are out there in full kit - decent helmets (not the 360 baht Tesco eggshells), full flak jackets, and so on. So if an army guy gets hit in the flak jacket, he goes down, but isn't killed; and other than a fair amount of ache for a couple of days, he really isn't injured badly at all.

I don't know, of course...just another thought.

2 things.

An airforce officer died today.

Yes the soldiers are much better protected,

plus they have snipers now looking for Ronin snipers,

so they are protrcting their vertical flanks much better.

Their tactics are greatly improved since April 10th.

They have a better idea what and who they are up against,

and have better strategy and tactics to neutralize the oppositions tactics.

So fewer deaths of soliders.

Tonight may reverse that trend somewhat.

A sationary unit is easier to guard than one on the move.

Plus if their snipers miss one red sniper he could do a lot of damage quickly

True about the air force officer. I was commenting on a couple of days ago.

Yup, forgot about the sniper cover and better tactics. Thanks, that all makes sense.

[tgw]

Anybody looking for balanced updates on what actually happening shud check Bangkokpundit on twitter...

but Bloodthirsty, video game induced world view carrying, 60 and up year old KIDS mite be disappointed with balanced reporting...

reality is a crap game where one always ends up dead.

but the graphics are great!

[elcent]

quote name='Tigs' post='3607577' date='2010-05-16 22:35:19']Well, anyone who speaks Thai or has a Thai wife needs to watch this!! If your wife watches it, get the kleenex ready!

Watch This!

(can anyone tell me how to embed youtube videos on this site?)

My wife, MIL, sisters etc, just watched it and all burst into sobbing tears. It is above politics and shows the real feelings of the normal Thai person as to what is happening in this country right now.

If anyone can give a better translation please do, but what I picked up was this. The guy picks up an award at a Thai TV awards show, and during the speech says something along the following lines. "This 'house' used to have lots of fighting, the family were never happy and fought about everything. Then along came our Father, he worked so hard to build a beautiful new 'House' for us, where we could all be happy and live together. As a young boy, I grew up in such a happy house and my Father loved us all and we all loved him so dearly. Now some members of our family are fighting for someone else and want to destroy our 'house', and hurt our Father and even take him away. Why? If you don't love our Father anymore, then just leave our House and let us be happy once again with him, we love him and we would all die for him"

All very emotional and a standing ovation. It is flying around the Thai social networking sites at the speed of light. If this is broadcast to the 'normal' red protestors they will all go home within 20 minutes of watching it.

you need to take the ID numbers/letters from the clip, in this case qtgJMOEREMw and embed it in between [y.outube]qtgJMOEREMw [/y.outube] (without the dots and spaces), then it comes like this

It's a deserved tribute to the King, I shed tears too.

Edited May 17, 2010 by elcent

[animatic]

Ever wonder where the Red-supporting posters on Thai Visa come from (and go to)?

They seem to come in groups, about 3 to 6 join within 2 days of each other, and they post frantically - each post stridently pro-Red, and the posters all use much the same phrasing and arguments, sometimes openly agreeing with each other. Then, after a few days, they seem to disappear. This pattern has happened about 5 times since mid-April.

Here's my theory. Ok, imagine a very rich man who's essentially bankrolling a demonstration in Bangkok (ok, you guessed who it is). He's seized by the idea that he's been cheated out of his power seat, but even more important (to him) that he's been cheated out of bazillions of baht. The power seat facilitated the massing of fortunes, but that's beside the point here.

So, he's got all this money and zeal, and he finds one or more English speakers who don't mind sitting in front of computers for several hours a day. Money for payment is no object. One adept writer could plausibly be sitting in front of two to four computers, with as many usernames, and just keep writing things that favor his employer. He's probably being coached, but that's also beside the point. And it doesn't have to be just Mr. Thaksin who's paying the piper (to play the tune), .....it could be any of his family or others he's close to. Actually, it's probably possible to log in with several names on one computer, I don't know.

You'll also notice, if you're watching this sort of thing, that most of the Red supporting posters currently online here, will probably be done posting in a day or two. Also, none of the suspects alluded to here have any personal info on their profile page.

Just a few thoughts.......

Right, crazy people cannot be crazy like this. We work hard to show some facts, we try to convince, some insult them. No reaction, they fart out the same. O.K., when I'm paid to post, I post, ...I follow my instructions.

Perception Management disinformation teams.

A form of Public Relations, where a lie or set of lies help sell what the client wants seen by the world.

So they attack all dissenting voices, and attempt to diminish their stature with others,

will incessantly peppering the discussion with their talking points and background to make the lie set

seem more plausible, and work to tie it specifically to certain posters who's view they can massage

closer to their desired world view. Inadvertently backing the game plan while not intending to.

Some start out with pretend agreement with some real posters, and then after wards change style

and become propagandists, hopefully bringing 'their friend' along for the ride.

The Big Lie told often and by multiple voices so it seems more plausible.

Plus certain specialists repeatedly targeting those that tear the lies apart best.

This has been going on since well before LAST Songkrans debacle.

Of course the lies get massaged and keywords adapted over time to move the story forward.

Peaceful demonstrators become innocent civilians. No armed reds only freedom fighters.

Nothing by grannies and children in the camp, just those wanting 'democracy'. etc.

Then actions on the ground are created to tie in with the lies.

Snipers killing red shirt pawns randomly so the army can be blamed,

because army snipers are out hunting the snipers to protect the army's vertical flanks etc.

Psychological warfare against ALL OF US, and how we see a situation,

coupled with actual warfare all set to create an ongoing long term impression.

Incidious doesn't even begin to describe this tandem from hel_l.

Edited May 17, 2010 by animatic

[lannarebirth]

I want to explain why I joined the forum and why I am posting here. I try to learn more about the political situation and I try to have various sources of information. I follow the international news channels (usually in the Internet because I do not like TV) everyday, I but both the Nation and Bangkok Post, I follow some blogs of people I trust and I talk to my colleagues in the office. I wanted also to follow a forum of people that they live here and i found the thaivisa. ......

Sir,

I do not know how long you have been in Thailand. Certainly on this forum there are people with an in-depth knowledge of the situations and they do know the roots of the current events. Also numerous Thai friends are posting on this forum. you can notice we have different opinions, we learnalso from each other.

We cannot answer you simply because it will take hours -even days- to explain the accumulated factors driving to those historical moments. I will just give you some very rough axis of researches.

First the Thai Culture (Asian/ Budhist) very different from the Christian/ western, with different appreciation like value of a life...

secondly the Thai History, including the construction of modern Thailand through an unification process... the exchange of territories which explain some details relative to Issan. The Chinese immigration and influence on Thai affairs....

Thirdly the Institutions about which we cannot talk on this forum

Quaterly some roots of the present conflict can be located in the aftermaith of the Vietnam war (Militias, weaponry smuggling)

......

So the situation is far more complex than it may appear in the International press.

Work hard......

comment 48

wch date : 16/05/2010 time : 23.15

http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/wch

</SPAN>

dal,

sar is nickname in Isan language. sar was educated in the old system, 4 years primary school and worked in bangkok as low manual hand, later he became 'dek' (young assistant) in long haul truck. in the business, the honorable one is to become the driver of long haul container. This young and bright boy got it but 40 years of age is the retirement. he became a skilled man to put ceiling with plaster and wire. he has no land. He joined 'Red Academy' at 'pnom padet' in nakorn panom. after graduate, he was reborn as 'spirited one', so targetted, so ambitious and so positive...

This group is about 5000 all over the country. They are not 'armed guards' but the backbone of red mass. they are given dish antenae and tv and they try to call villagers at their house and watch 'people's channel'.

Thaksin use the big corporate organization system to organize his supporting network and educate, brain wash and reward. his system of village vigilant system is one of them for anti-drug campaign. In isan every village has check point and uniformed villagemen check the traffic.

Thaksin has strong confidence in his organization.

http://blog.nationmultimedia.com/thanong/2010/05/16/entry-2

[naughtybadfurrimunki]

Just posted in the other thread, thought I'd better put it here too. Red shirts now occupying Lad Prao Rd at Big C near Ekkamai-Ramintra expressway.

[animatic]

The government must ask all citizens who want these protests to end to hang white or blue cloth from their windows.

Maybe the reds will be shocked at how much people actually want peace.

Or start shooting or firebombing any apartments that have the cloth out....

Edited May 17, 2010 by animatic

[lungmi]

Red Shirt use BABY as human SHIELD.MP4

That baby shouldn't be there in the first place, you're right. But also:

Nobody shooting at the baby = baby not human shield.

Please don't tell me you think a human shield is used to TAKE the bullets first

like a shield in a sword fight???

The point of using a Human Shield is to prevent an attack,

by playing on the humanity of your opponent to NOT attack,

BECAUSE the human shield is there.

It is a truly evil act.

You can abuse them completely, because they still have a heart...

thank you

Human shields, killing rescue workers, assault of a hospital are war crimes (Geneva convention).

All discussion about this here forgets this fact. Only terrorists don't know it. The "final shot", if necessary, is allowed to protect the helpless.

[ChemiseRouge]

AFP: "I stand with my countrymen in this terrible hour in our history," Thaksin said in a statement.

AFP: "The pictures that I have seen go beyond any nightmares that could have been envisaged." said Thaksin

AFP: "I have no choice but to state resolutely the need for all sides to step back from this terrible abyss." Said Thaksin

AFP: "Seek to begin a new, genuine and sincere dialogue between the parties," he said.

AFP "The present action of the government dishonour our history and will forever weaken our institutions and democracy." Said Thaksin.

now for some retail therapy as I've come over all emotional

Marie Claire team spotted REAL Thaksin Shinawatra at Louis Vuitton Champ Elysee on Sat May 15th

the man is as shallow as he is conniving - certainly looks like he is truly grieving.

So glad to see Abhisit and Suthep on the contrary are out on the streets fighting with their soldiers. Aren't you?

Well they are certainly not indulging in a well-known shopaholic's addictions whilst making fatuous statements

about the concerns he has for his fellow countrymen and spending his ill-gotten gains.

Your idol is a complete cretin who is orchestrating a blatant powergrab.

No doubt there is a real iniquity that exists in the LoS regarding the disparity of wealth.

However your shortarse chum just highlights that further when going on a spending spree in the Champs Elysee,

when he set his own country ablaze and consigning the people he claims to espouse to the flames along with it.

The country & the people deserve better than a globetrotting shopper

and his odious puppets dealing death & destruction at their master's voice.

My guess is that you are only on here as an apologist, and from what I see from others to get some attention.

Regarding a point you made in another post, having spent time at Victory Monument & Klongtoey yesterday

and this morning at Ratchprasong you are correct in surmising that the Reds are establishing concurrent areas of protest,

that threaten to bring Bangkok to a halt.

Similarly the military appear to be paralyzed by inaction to put down this uprising.

Meanwhile the cops have been co-opted into doing nothing with the hope their benefactor could return,

that they are doing the least possible to ensure the fall of the government.

But personally I don't see Abhisit going shopping whilst his country burns,

rather trying to bring about an end to this turmoil created by your chum.

If any good is to come of this, another look at the tax base wouldna'e go amiss

along with a real effort to better the lot of ordinary folk.

Not, however, whilst putting their hands in the cookie jar whilst handing crumbs out with the other.

unlike your Parisian boulevardier.

Edited May 17, 2010 by ChemiseRouge

[rogerdee123]

Ever wonder where the Red-supporting posters on Thai Visa come from (and go to)?

They seem to come in groups, about 3 to 6 join within 2 days of each other, and they post frantically - each post stridently pro-Red, and the posters all use much the same phrasing and arguments, sometimes openly agreeing with each other. Then, after a few days, they seem to disappear. This pattern has happened about 5 times since mid-April.

Here's my theory. Ok, imagine a very rich man who's essentially bankrolling a demonstration in Bangkok (ok, you guessed who it is). He's seized by the idea that he's been cheated out of his power seat, but even more important (to him) that he's been cheated out of bazillions of baht. The power seat facilitated the massing of fortunes, but that's beside the point here.

So, he's got all this money and zeal, and he finds one or more English speakers who don't mind sitting in front of computers for several hours a day. Money for payment is no object. One adept writer could plausibly be sitting in front of two to four computers, with as many usernames, and just keep writing things that favor his employer. He's probably being coached, but that's also beside the point. And it doesn't have to be just Mr. Thaksin who's paying the piper (to play the tune), .....it could be any of his family or others he's close to. Actually, it's probably possible to log in with several names on one computer, I don't know.

You'll also notice, if you're watching this sort of thing, that most of the Red supporting posters currently online here, will probably be done posting in a day or two. Also, none of the suspects alluded to here have any personal info on their profile page.

Just a few thoughts.......

Right, crazy people cannot be crazy like this. We work hard to show some facts, we try to convince, some insult them. No reaction, they fart out the same. O.K., when I'm paid to post, I post, ...I follow my instructions.

Perception Management disinformation teams.

A form of Public Relations, where a lie or set of lies help sell what the client wants seen by the world.

So they attack all disenting voices, and attempt to diminish their stature with others,

will inceasently peppering the discussion with their talking points and background to make the lie set

seem more plausible, and work to tie it specificly to certain posters who's view they can massage

closer to their desired world view. Inadvertantly backing the game plan while not intending to.

Some start out woitj pretend agreement with some real posters, and then after wards change style

and become propagandists, hopefully bringing 'their friend' along for the ride.

The Big Lie told often and by multiple voices so it seems more plausible.

Plus certain specialists repeatedly targeting those that tear the lies apart best.

This has been going on since well before LAST Songkrans debackle.

Of course the lies get massaged and keywords adapted over time to move the story forward.

Peacefull demonstrators become innocent civilians. No armed reds only freedom fighters.

Nothing by grannies and children in the camp, just those wanting 'democracy'. etc.

Then actions on the ground are created to tie in with the lies.

Snipers killing red shirt pawns randomly so the army can be blamed,

because army snipers are out hunting the snipers to protect the army's vertical flanks etc.

Psychological warfare against ALL OF US, and how we see a situation,

coupled with actual warfare all set to create an ongoing long term impression.

Incidious doesn't even begin to describe this tandem from hel_l.

Yes I believe this is true ... and I'm afraid they are winning the media war with these tactics.