More Bloodshed In Bangkok As Red Siege Continues

[naughtybadfurrimunki]

CONCISE AND INFORMED. From Today's Independent:

Background to the current Thai protest

[info] earlywarm wrote:

The Independent (London) Saturday, 15 May 2010 at 12:41 am (UTC)

I suspect that much of the confusion in the reports on the situation in

Thailand is coming from commentators who cannot speak or understand the

Thai language. So much of their analysis is simply a list of cliches

copied from others. Where is the good investigative research on any of the

people involved here, or on the political history in the country over the

past twenty years?

This is not fundamentally a "poor" vs "rich" class war. While there are

certainly elements of this it is entirely too superficial an analysis and

simply caters to western preconceptions about who the "good guys' and 'bad

guys' might be.

It is more correctly part of a phenomenon which is occurring all over

China and South East Asia at the moment: - the massive growth of a vast

new middle class - people who were once poor during the last century, but

who now have access to more money, consumer goods, education, health care,

mobility and entertainment than they have ever had in any previous time in

their history. All across Asia the growth of this demographic is radically

changing the political structure and threatening the old feudal society

which has always depended on 'patronage' and corruption for its power.

Thailand's rural population, like the Philippines is and has been ruled by

local "oligarchs", powerful families, mafia thugs, police chiefs and

village chiefs at least since 1938 when it first became a military

dictatorship under Marshal Phibul. These people are terrified of

progressive democratic changes in society. But such changes are inevitable

as more and more people join the expanding middle classes.

The current revolt has been precipitated by the oligarchs - the corrupt

feudal families. Thaksin is their hero - and because each feifdom controls

its own group of rural people they have been able to make it look like (to

the naive foreign press) a large crowd is clamouring for democracy. But it

is their intense focus on violence that gives them away entirely. They

have a powerful military wing who have no qualms about killing their own

protesters in order to lay blame on the government. They have been

clamouring for bloodletting since the beginning of this protest. They are

fighting back tooth and nail against democracy, education, the welfare

state (attacks on hospitals) and in particular the rule of law.

If we are going to have a discussion in the press, let's have an informed

discussion, please?

Hits nail on head. Very eloquently put.

[nickupton]

Armed men in black in action

OK. Red shirt supporters. Defend that!!

Fake red, third hand, yellow shirt trying to make reds look bad, bare hands doing one of those shadow things to approximate the shape of a gun - I can only do the shape of a rabbit head or dog myself but then I'm not on yaba.

[humfurry]

looting and arson spreading, tesco lotus

link?

[TAWP]

Surely it's time to roll in the tanks? It's not like our past gov'ts have been tank shy. They (like all gov'ts) can spin it to their heart's content after the fact. "Oh, those were just 'light tanks' and the only people getting killed were the Reds who were shooting each other. They were like Dawn of the Dead zombies."

I really hope it does not come to that.

[dukkha]

Friend emailed that there is a truck outside his apartment block with large LP gas cylinders waiting to be set on fire, will be an almighty and horrific explosion.....

[TAWP]

The Nation story says:

"By 4pm, a Dusit Poll revealed a disturbing figure: 51 per cent of respondents backed the military crackdown. It's not clear what the other 49 per cent thought."

Disturbing to which side? I would think that adjective should be ONLY 51 percent backed the crackdown. It's a cr*p story at any rate, but if only that percentage backs its own government in clearing a mob engaged in a host of illegal activities it shows strong support for the underclass activists.

as the guy said the other 49% is unknown but given normal stats it would be safe to say 25% for the reds which imho is a far cry from the amount needed to call the reds a grass root movement that seeks justice for all. now that bullets are flying the 500b a day reds are staying away, as they well should which goes to show if there is no money there is no honey. the reds have a cause but it has been lost in their own greed and lack of good judgment by it's leaders.

How dare you use the word greed coming from one who probably has against those who definitely have not

If I work and am a have and you want to take this from me, am I greedy or you?

[gemini81]

Canadian journalists holding others at hostage in Bangkok? Who is the troll here or should i use the i... word of whybothers comment?

What you should do is use a bit of common sense.

A reporter goes in between two groups shooting at each other UNPROTECTED.

He gets shot. No one knows who shot him.

He should have worn protection.

....or not go into the zone, and stay on the outside (zoom in if you know how to operate a camera.) I know he wanted a close up of the action, but he got it. gotta sleep in the bed you make.

saw the news last night with this report wearing no protection, while to his left soldiers were concealed behind sandbags! just crusin' for a bruisin!

man, that CNN reporter sure has the red thugs made out to be victims. hard to believe he hasnt seen any guns in there either. he must report for the CNN helen keller station.

[mccw]

thai lady on pbs tv crying say see picture on tv and call her son on the protest say stop to destroy country, he said he cannot.

[TAWP]

It's strange how the international media always seem to leave out the 'Thaksin link' when they report on this. It's such an important piece in the puzzle that to me it even feels suspicious that they don't mention this, almost like he's greased a few palms in the west (oh it does happen!). Instead they talk about the 'rural poor' versus the 'elite', and associate the word democracy with the very people who ruin the very idea by happily selling their vote fot the price of a couple of beers!

I think that the bbc/cnn and the rest of these 'non-biased' organisations should get to the real truth which is far more interesting than the story which they're currently reporting.

Why don't they ask the red shirts how much they're getting paid? Ask them why they think Thaksin is so great and what he could do for the country should he return. Ask them how they think that Thaksin, as a convicted criminal, could possibly plan to be taken seriously by the international community, should he manage to bully his way back into office.

Ask them why they are using women and children as a human shield.

Ask them why they risk their lives for a greedy evil billionaire?

Why can't the press get an interview with Thaksin? A few well placed questions will simply destroy him.

Why don't the international media do their job rather than appearing to be the heroes in the danger zone, reporting alongside the red-shirt 'freedom fighters'?

My point? It appears that Thaksin has more than just a few red-shirts in his back pocket!!!

The BBC is World renowned as being unbiased as they are not politically controlled and not owned by profit seeking investors, its where reporters can report without hindrance from upstairs, Does not make them right but makes them unbiased CNN probably the same, slightly different from THE NATION

Please, not this again...my home country has the exact same setup and the news-channel has had the pro-government (socialist) bias for the last 80 years. Comes naturally when the government still has the ability to regulate and affect the budget of the organization. Just because they are 'payed by all' doesn't make them unbiased. Politicians are 'payed by all' too...just more by some...

[lannarebirth]

CONCISE AND INFORMED. From Today's Independent:

Background to the current Thai protest

[info] earlywarm wrote:

The Independent (London) Saturday, 15 May 2010 at 12:41 am (UTC)

I suspect that much of the confusion in the reports on the situation in

Thailand is coming from commentators who cannot speak or understand the

Thai language. So much of their analysis is simply a list of cliches

copied from others. Where is the good investigative research on any of the

people involved here, or on the political history in the country over the

past twenty years?

This is not fundamentally a "poor" vs "rich" class war. While there are

certainly elements of this it is entirely too superficial an analysis and

simply caters to western preconceptions about who the "good guys' and 'bad

guys' might be.

It is more correctly part of a phenomenon which is occurring all over

China and South East Asia at the moment: - the massive growth of a vast

new middle class - people who were once poor during the last century, but

who now have access to more money, consumer goods, education, health care,

mobility and entertainment than they have ever had in any previous time in

their history. All across Asia the growth of this demographic is radically

changing the political structure and threatening the old feudal society

which has always depended on 'patronage' and corruption for its power.

Thailand's rural population, like the Philippines is and has been ruled by

local "oligarchs", powerful families, mafia thugs, police chiefs and

village chiefs at least since 1938 when it first became a military

dictatorship under Marshal Phibul. These people are terrified of

progressive democratic changes in society. But such changes are inevitable

as more and more people join the expanding middle classes.

The current revolt has been precipitated by the oligarchs - the corrupt

feudal families. Thaksin is their hero - and because each feifdom controls

its own group of rural people they have been able to make it look like (to

the naive foreign press) a large crowd is clamouring for democracy. But it

is their intense focus on violence that gives them away entirely. They

have a powerful military wing who have no qualms about killing their own

protesters in order to lay blame on the government. They have been

clamouring for bloodletting since the beginning of this protest. They are

fighting back tooth and nail against democracy, education, the welfare

state (attacks on hospitals) and in particular the rule of law.

If we are going to have a discussion in the press, let's have an informed

discussion, please?

Outstanding post. One would think that what you have written would be self evident to all board members but clearly there are some truly deluded people here.

[mccw]

Canadian journalists holding others at hostage in Bangkok? Who is the troll here or should i use the i... word of whybothers comment?

What you should do is use a bit of common sense.

A reporter goes in between two groups shooting at each other UNPROTECTED.

He gets shot. No one knows who shot him.

He should have worn protection.

....or not go into the zone, and stay on the outside (zoom in if you know how to operate a camera.) I know he wanted a close up of the action, but he got it. gotta sleep in the bed you make.

saw the news last night with this report wearing no protection, while to his left soldiers were concealed behind sandbags! just crusin' for a bruisin!

man, that CNN reporter sure has the red thugs made out to be victims. hard to believe he hasnt seen any guns in there either. he must report for the CNN helen keller station.

he looks like hes just up in an office, that lady out on the ground says she been with the army as they've come under fire. i wonder they dont talk to each other or what? dodgy

[humfurry]

Friend emailed that there is a truck outside his apartment block with large LP gas cylinders waiting to be set on fire, will be an almighty and horrific explosion.....

Location of your friend?

[Britannia]

It's strange how the international media always seem to leave out the 'Thaksin link' when they report on this. It's such an important piece in the puzzle that to me it even feels suspicious that they don't mention this, almost like he's greased a few palms in the west (oh it does happen!). Instead they talk about the 'rural poor' versus the 'elite', and associate the word democracy with the very people who ruin the very idea by happily selling their vote fot the price of a couple of beers!

I think that the bbc/cnn and the rest of these 'non-biased' organisations should get to the real truth which is far more interesting than the story which they're currently reporting.

Why don't they ask the red shirts how much they're getting paid? Ask them why they think Thaksin is so great and what he could do for the country should he return. Ask them how they think that Thaksin, as a convicted criminal, could possibly plan to be taken seriously by the international community, should he manage to bully his way back into office.

Ask them why they are using women and children as a human shield.

Ask them why they risk their lives for a greedy evil billionaire?

Why can't the press get an interview with Thaksin? A few well placed questions will simply destroy him.

Why don't the international media do their job rather than appearing to be the heroes in the danger zone, reporting alongside the red-shirt 'freedom fighters'?

My point? It appears that Thaksin has more than just a few red-shirts in his back pocket!!!

The BBC is World renowned as being unbiased as they are not politically controlled and not owned by profit seeking investors, its where reporters can report without hindrance from upstairs, Does not make them right but makes them unbiased CNN probably the same, slightly different from THE NATION

World renowned for being unbiased, not politically controlled - very funny. I take it you didn't follow the BBC's coverage of the UK election ? They are most certainly capable of being unbiased, however they are not beyond reproach. They are very capable of incredibly sloppy journalism at times. Often retracting sensationalist headlines and changing them the next day after being bombarded with complaints reminding them of the facts.

So what in fact you are saying is there is no such thing as unbiased reporting, that should therefore result in those of us seeking the truth and not opinion to just simply switching off, if we do not see with our own eyes then everything is just someone else’s view which has no value as it probably biased. Sad World

[Netfan]

Friend emailed that there is a truck outside his apartment block with large LP gas cylinders waiting to be set on fire, will be an almighty and horrific explosion.....

Favored red tactic from Songkran '09

[dino67]

The 'Thai Sniper' in the video posted earlier is using a variant of an M16, Model 655 M16A1. It's basically an M16 with a heavier barrel and scope mounted on the grabhandle.

Common weapon for platoon designated sharpshooters to use in Thailand. It is not a specialised sniper rifle. IMHO the guy shooting is regular army and not a sniper.

[Jerrytheyoung]

Quote:

"You see only the short term effect on the economy. The sulking of Spain and spanish products has lasted more than 40 years. Half of Europe (I cannot talk for other Countries- because I have not the knowledge) will sulk Thailand and Thai products if there is a tough crushing action on the Red Shirts."

quote

no. bussiness wants to be able to get on with business. if this is seen though firmly, it will b the best thing for thailand.

I understand your point of view which is the same than probably most of the managers hit by the rallyes. But it is not the long term interest of Thailand: if there is a tough action, the roots of the problems will not be eradicated and at some times the problem will resurface: important investors know this and will manage to fly to better skies; Thailand as tourism destination as well as Thai products will be sulked.

Only a negotiation can clear the issues.

I am not without ignoring than some, inside the Red Shirts, try to go further and are reluctant to negotiation. It is a very difficult task to bring all parties to the table of negotiation, but it has to be done.

If there is a crushing action, I do not think also that the militias will stop their activity as they are freely circulating in the Country and will escape the crushing for most of their staff: a crushing action result will only be a negative Public marketing action.

[whiterussian]

Hang on a sec, you boys say that if I critisise the leadership of Mr A, and this botched attempt to clear the shopping malls of Bangkok that I am a troll? and a wanke_r, just here to wind people up?

My angle is I want to see the yellows and PAD squirm when they lose a general election. That is what I would wish for the reds. An election soon. It might stop all this <deleted>!! if the reds lose, great, if they win.. f**king great. I can only hope for a landslide for one side or the other.

Sorry. I must be a troll for wanting the military to stay the <deleted> out of politics! They have no place in this day and age. They have to learn Thaksins game instead.

You make the mistake of thinking Abhisit and the "yellows" are somehow the same. The yellows are no greater a force than the reds, which are both minorities in Thailand. The vast majority of Thais are neither and will support any government that puts violent members of either group down.

Abhisit openly supported PAD during airport and govt house seige. Its very clear he is not in charge, and is merely a mouthpiece for the military and anti-Thaksin interests. I do disagree with " The vast majority of Thais are neither and will support any government that puts violent members of either group down".

From my observations, whoever pulls this off with the least "Jai Rai" will be the winner amongst the electorate. It may be just me, but images of the 'majority' of the reds being peacful protestors, and being gunned down by troops will serve only to distance Abhisit and his 'elite' from the rural and poor communities of Thailand. I could be wrong, I hope we get a chance to find out before too long.

Like a frog in a hot pan, Thailand is slipping into a military dictatorship, albeit one that celebrates 'sanook' over pomp and ceremony.

I dislike soldiers full stop, they are like corrupt cops, but with bigger guns. Maybe that is why I dont like the current administration - its mainly run by soldiers. Anyway... what a lovely war... be great if Abhisit went abroad today.

Edited May 16, 2010 by whiterussian

[kissdani]

Do you notice Wayne Hay is wearing a bullet proof vest and a helment.

The journalist shot yesterday was wearing jeans and a black shirt, and was running between the reds and army shooting each other. Idiot.

It is now part of the job of the security forces to shot at journalists who are not wearing "a bullet proof vest and a helment[sic]"?

The Apologists of this violent crackdown becoming more and more pathetic.

Would you say to him face to face that he is an idiot or are just anotheranonymous hiding behind his keyboard seeding hate?

I would tell him to his face that to wear a color that could be confusing to low-ranked soldiers was probably not the smartest choice to wear in that situation. Why, do you think he didn't make a mistake to wear a black shirt among the 'protestors'?

???

Are you assuming that the security forces who restore peace and nomalcy are on the same level stupid and idiodic as some warmonger falang at TVF and think black shirt=terrorist?

CRES said they shot only at terrorist in self defence and to protect others against the imminent threat of death or serious injury by armed terrorists.

But actually they are not doing this, they shot just randomly at people doesn't matter if they sport a deadly weapon or not. I guess the T-shirt color of the target don't play a big role in such moments. What would they do if the terrorist disguise themself in neon pink and lime green Hawaiian shirts? These days you cannot trust these pesky terrorist that they will wear only black better is to shot at anybody.

Another t-shirt color would had not protect the journalist nor prevent his wounds.

[Oberkommando]

Sorry. I must be a troll for wanting the military to stay the <deleted> out of politics! They have no place in this day and age. They have to learn Thaksins game instead.

This.

The current revolt has been precipitated by the oligarchs - the corrupt

feudal families. Thaksin is their hero

What utter nonsense.

I think you'll find these families are firmly on the opposing side to Thaksin, for quite obvious reasons.

Newin anyone?

[gemini81]

Armed men in black in action

OK. Red shirt supporters. Defend that!!

I seriously doubt the man in black has rubber bullets in that puppy either!! Prolly another one of the guns from the purchase made by Thaksin (in which he was found out about back in April)

Ok, well you can't deny these are insurgents

I don't believe its just mostly women and children in there, still appears to be lots of Thaksin's expendible young thugs on the corners trying to shot and burn stuff.

[bkkjames]

After 2 months of violent speech, the last few days of grenades, looting, shooting medical personell, burning tyres and businesses and who knows what's next, we now see what red democracy is first hand.

George should change his daily update title, it is no longer a red shirt rally.

It is a rebellion.

[englishoak]

This used to be a good information site with good views and posts... Now all I mostly see is crap posts and how they deserve this and they deserve that....Very few seem to be even slightly sorry that THESE PEOPLE ARE BEING KILLED... for mostly nothing more than being in the wrong place or choosing to have an opinion and standing up for it ... I REPEAT THEY DO NOT DESERVE TO DIE... They deserve LIFE, nothing less it is the so called government who have ordered the army in and started killing in big numbers indiscriminately. The Killing MUST stop and the army pull back this is a sledgehammer to crack a nut and cannot be justified.

This is not accidental shootings mostly this is pre targeted sniper fire ... these people are being assassinated in front of the world and all most of you can do is talk shit about them probably being terrorists or criminals and how inconvenient it is for everyone etc...

Shame on most of you for your apathetic and inhumane attitudes, you make me sick pretending to sit on your moral high ground.... every one of you has a dodgy government not to mention your faults and im sure plenty of you are betraying their other halves etc so spare us the holy insight of what the protesters deserve you bunch of rubberneckers....

[TAWP]

here is a report from a spot where unarmed red shirts were shot repeatedly...by Thai soldiers. If it is true that there is only shooting by the military in self defense, then why were these guys shot up? rivetting stuff:

http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/newmandala/2...e-killing-zone/

They look like innocent civilian just passing by, don't they?

A tongue in cheek joke I suppose. They where neither unarmed nor passersby. Infact, they are the typical wall-building grunts that enable this mess and the actions of more heavy armed insurgents to act out against the army.

I understand why they get shot at.

[Oberkommando]

It is a rebellion.

It's a revolution. And they are never pretty.

[LivinLOS]

savage. Abhisit is now a world class dictator. Congratulations!

And what is this supposed to show?? some criminals hiding behind barricades that is all

What is shows is the governments claims that "we only shoot in self defence" are totally bogus lies.. As does the CNN footage..

Which then makes his "only trust the official sources, we must maintain the moral high ground" type statements also laughable..

Its currently open season on anything that moves, protesters, journos, medics, etc.. Lets forget this 'only in self defence' PR BS..

What it shows is that they need to go home. It's a message. If you want to try to take over the capitol, be prepared to be shot. It's a good message. What shocks me about all this is the people that paid them to come to BKK to BE SHOT. Here's 500 THB, go take a bullet for MY cause. I really can't understand why people can't see this for what it is.

This IS about Thaksin!

Seemed some of those people lived there.. That IS home !!

This is beyond being pro one side or pro another side.. Come back from the brink.. Its never OK to start shooting people who do not pose a threat.. End of.

[LivinLOS]

savage. Abhisit is now a world class dictator. Congratulations!

And what is this supposed to show?? some criminals hiding behind barricades that is all

What is shows is the governments claims that "we only shoot in self defence" are totally bogus lies.. As does the CNN footage..

Which then makes his "only trust the official sources, we must maintain the moral high ground" type statements also laughable..

Its currently open season on anything that moves, protesters, journos, medics, etc.. Lets forget this 'only in self defence' PR BS..

And at what point in the video do you see the military shooting? At what point in the video do you see the red's shooting? At What point in the video do you see EXACTLY the reason why these guys are sheltering? At what poin....... well, you get it!

Have you read the accompanying report from the new mandala ??

Or just shooting off without being informed ??

[dhrobertson]

This used to be a good information site with good views and posts... Now all I mostly see is crap posts and how they deserve this and they deserve that....Very few seem to be even slightly sorry that THESE PEOPLE ARE BEING KILLED... for mostly nothing more than being in the wrong place or choosing to have an opinion and standing up for it ... I REPEAT THEY DO NOT DESERVE TO DIE... They deserve LIFE, nothing less it is the so called government who have ordered the army in and started killing in big numbers indiscriminately. The Killing MUST stop and the army pull back this is a sledgehammer to crack a nut and cannot be justified.

This is not accidental shootings mostly this is pre targeted sniper fire ... these people are being assassinated in front of the world and all most of you can do is talk shit about them probably being terrorists or criminals and how inconvenient it is for everyone etc...

Shame on most of you for your apathetic and inhumane attitudes, you make me sick pretending to sit on your moral high ground.... every one of you has a dodgy government not to mention your faults and im sure plenty of you are betraying their other halves etc so spare us the holy insight of what the protesters deserve you bunch of rubberneckers....

I am afraid, sir, that you are wrong on all counts. I suggest you sit down and have a nice cup of tea.

[brahmburgers]

The Nation story says:

"By 4pm, a Dusit Poll revealed a disturbing figure: 51 per cent of respondents backed the military crackdown. It's not clear what the other 49 per cent thought."

Disturbing to which side? I would think that adjective should be ONLY 51 percent backed the crackdown. It's a cr*p story at any rate, but if only that percentage backs its own government in clearing a mob engaged in a host of illegal activities it shows strong support for the underclass activists.

the other percentages would also prefer negotiation, no opinion ands such, to say the other 49% support the red side would be a leap of imagination.

I agree, the adjective 'disturbing' paints the messenger as being subjective/opinionated. As the messenger says himself, "51% backed military crackdown" and therefore he assumes 49% don't. Too flawed. He could just as well conclude 49% favor a tougher crackdown or (more realistically) 49% are undecided. Methinks Thai poll takers/designers have a lot to learn about fair opinion polls.

Thai army snipers in action

Disturbing to see Thai firing on Thai, for sure. However, how did it get to this point? That's what we've been debating for weeks. It's the 'glass half empty or the glass half full' quandary. You may see it as evil, whereas I see it as security forces doing what has to be done. Unfortunately, mistakes will happen (as with the child yesterday), but everyone has been warned, and it's crystal clear that parts of downtown Bkk are combat zones, and you enter at your own risk of life and limb.

[jdinasia]

The soldiers seemed constantly caught off-balance by agitators showing a grasp of insurgency that may well derive from their time as army conscripts. They shot M-79 grenades, which can kill within five yards. They aimed slingshots with deadly accuracy. They let off makeshift cannons. Some blazed away with pistols. A Buddhist monk was seen to launch a glowing fire-lantern, normally used in religious rites, into the sky to ward off helicopters. Others fired home-made rockets at the choppers.The wildness was fuelled by more than fury. Crates of Red Bull, the energy drink, were by a barricade where edgy soldiers fingered their assault rifles. A mixture of cheap whiskey and amphetamines was said to be keeping many of their enemies on their toes.

i don't understand. this is saying the former conscripts learned something the current conscripts have not been taught?

they teach insurgency in basic training?

thai army armed with slingshots?

thai army buys makeshift cannon from us defense contractors?

army conscripts taught to blaze away with pistols?

but they only have slingshots?

The quote is about the reds - a bit confused but ok - it is a known fact that a lot of the reds, if not most use Ja baa - every drug dealer must have rushed to the scene once it started to make a killing. The problem with amphetamines is that they give them a lot of energy and cause severe paranoia and delusions as can also be seen with the red supporters on TV. Another side effect is aggression.

Basically the army has to deal with total maniacs

Every Issaner farmer knows the virtue of chewing the leaves of Coca.... they do not need amphetamines

Wow ---- now Jerry is saying every Isaan farmer uses drugs? Jerry you are further hurting your cause! As for coca being grown in Thailand on any scale ... Jerry are you SURE you have ever been in Thailand? In the past poppies (used in the production of opium that can be refined into heroin) was fairly comon. That Yaa Baa enters the country from Laos and Burma is comon knowledge but coca? hmmm I better do some reading! Maybe I can find a reference to coca being grown here somewhere!

[dukkha]

Friend emailed that there is a truck outside his apartment block with large LP gas cylinders waiting to be set on fire, will be an almighty and horrific explosion.....

Location of your friend?

Chidlom but as it came second hand I am unable to be more specific in terms of soi etc...sorry but it is not rumour mongering rather an expression of deep concern, he is an aussie Doctor working for US NGO, said that they could lose everything if explosion, it is near a bridge, that would be a foot bridge I imagine in Chidlom...I know this report is vague but came via another friend....US have offered to evacuate USAID staff and other NGO's.....