Thai Political Violence Far From Over: Analysts

[pornsasi]

This is really worth a reading ...

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LE13Ae01.html

It is worth a reading indeed.

Division is clearly part of their plan. What the government needs to do is not just busing them back to where they were right away. But to re-educate them. Many of them will be enlightened and even become excellent human resource for democracy. Failing to do so will only allow Thaksin to continue planting seeds of hatred.

Reeducate them to vote dems ?

Sounds familiar . Abhisit the new Pol Pot or Mao Tze tung ?

You choose

Good plan ...

[asiawatcher]

Surprisingly enough the name Thaksin still rings a bell here. For what I have been observing , Thanksin is History. Today is the Red . No one except the Reds themselves is going to seek justice for their friends , love ones , relatives and to those who die innocently without knowing what had hit them on the head.

They wants revenge and are after those who thinks they are above the law and ordered the shooting of hundreds or thousands of innocent victims.Everyone saw either on tv. or from web, how Sae Daeng was being assassinated by a sniper right at his temper.

The government can denied anything or having involvement in that action. Very clearly, Sae Daeng is an obstacle, celebrity , enemy and a threat to the government. Whoever holds the power and controlled the military is the one who gave the orders .

No one would think it is Thaksin or the Red protester. Probably they like to blame it on neighboring military who has done the job.

The ones who order the firing spree on the red protesters and the innocence highly believes they are above the law. They never thought of it as murder. Killing of innocence or another human is like having a cup of coffee over lunch. Because, I supposed they do it all the time and has gotten immune to it .

The reds now and future are a unified bunch of dangerous under ground guerrillas. They lead themselves and are revengeful to those who has murdered their comrades.

This will not end soon until the amart steps down and give way for a new election.

Bloop

Good but one error - Min size of bullets by army is a 308 and that takes out half a football of anything in front of it. The 'execution' of Sae Daeng whilst talking to the NY Times reporter was a black shirt and most likely a .222. Army would have blown his head clean off and it had to be small calibre as he lived for 3 days before expiring. A 308 as said, he would be instantly removed from this life

From my General friends they tell me he was taken down as he was no longer listening to the commands of the reds so they executed him then blamed it on the Govt but there is no way they used small calibre. It was a hit from about 100 metres within the red camp. Forensics will verify. The executioner may never be known.

So the army wasn't capable of purchasing or using weapons with a caliber smaller than 308 - interesting but silly. He might well have been killed by reds and the only thing certain about Seh Daengs death is we will never know the truth although someone may eventually be convicted and executed for his murder.

If memory serves, the M-16s so prevalent in images and videos of soldiers and snipers fires .223 caliber rounds.

Sorry - I was referring to their core snipers. Hope that clears it up.

[Brian67]

something to think about

Suthikiart Jirathiwat and Pracha Maleenont are quite close to Thaksin Shinawatra. They are still on good terms. If the reds set the blaze it would not make sense at all.

Places burnt down are symbolic of regime/system and representation of success. However the perpetrators are sparing many business locations

Dusit, MBK, ASTV, Nation, SisaoTewes, Pullman Kingpower, all left untouched.

Those would've been the reds' targets. Remember who was feuding with Central and BEC before all of this? Who was the biggest enemy of the Central Group and Ch. 3 in the past 3 years? The direct beneficiary of the fire is not reds or Thaksin...it's the man who feuded.

The fire kills 5 birds with one stone: Channel 3, Central, Thaksin, Reds, Anti-Monarchists. Pongpat was used. Game over for Thaksin as he and reds are delegitimized, while opponents of Central/Bangkok Bank/BEC benefit. Think about this for a minute and you'll realise the missing jigsaw of this puzzle.

The men behind the blaze are the men who wanted to drive BEC/Central/BBL out of business and blame it on protestors. The fires irrevocably end the reds shirts movement for now, while Thaksin cannot conceivably ever return to politics or even to Thai soil.

The victims of the fire are not Thaksin/Reds's enemies. They are the enemies of Thaksin's enemies. Ultra-hardcore-right-winged conservative types stand to benefit from this chaos.

Watch the aftermath closely and you'll see. Those who are desperate about clinging on to power are required to create an element of fear in the heart of its population. The incentive is greater than those who are aspiring to attain power.

People will go to great lengths to protect remaining interests while the threat is eliminated to foster a rally-round-the-regime type of feeling.

The goal of the movement to eliminate Thaksin forever from the system was not accomplished until today. It is end-game for him. We lose. Regime wins.

May I stress not coincidence ASTV, Nation, PullmanKingPower, Dusit remain untouched. This battle is deeper than what meets the eyes. And SiSao is untouched.

This is all very 'conspiracy theory' stuff but then stranger things have happened, and not just in Thailand

[Rideau]

This is really worth a reading ...

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LE13Ae01.html

It is worth a reading indeed.

Division is clearly part of their plan. What the government needs to do is not just busing them back to where they were right away. But to re-educate them. Many of them will be enlightened and even become excellent human resource for democracy. Failing to do so will only allow Thaksin to continue planting seeds of hatred.

Reeducate them to vote dems ?

Sounds familiar . Abhisit the new Pol Pot or Mao Tze tung ?

You choose

Good plan ...

Did I say anywhere that they should be re-educated to vote for Dems? Do not keep politicizing every opinion in this thread in your favour.

I hope you will be able to get out of the Red Democracy fantasy. Are you Thai? Shame on you sympathizing with the home wreckers.

For now you are on my ignore list.

Edited May 20, 2010 by Rideau

[Arkady]

Good but one error - Min size of bullets by army is a 308 and that takes out half a football of anything in front of it. The 'execution' of Sae Daeng whilst talking to the NY Times reporter was a black shirt and most likely a .222. Army would have blown his head clean off and it had to be small calibre as he lived for 3 days before expiring. A 308 as said, he would be instantly removed from this life

From my General friends they tell me he was taken down as he was no longer listening to the commands of the reds so they executed him then blamed it on the Govt but there is no way they used small calibre. It was a hit from about 100 metres within the red camp. Forensics will verify. The executioner may never be known.

I think it has been reported that the bullet fragments found in Seh Daeng's head were from a .308 Winchester bullet which can be fired by a variety of hunting and sniper rifles, including but not limited to Winchesters. The metric size of this is 7.62mm which is the same calibre as an AK47. You are completely wrong about this being the smallest size of ammunition used by the army because the M16 which is still the Thai army's standard infantry weapon uses 5.56mm ammuniton, or .223 in inches. In fact the calibre of the bullet doesn't necessarily determine the size of the wound. Sniper rifles are designed for accuracy and distance, not for their stopping power and wounding capablities. On the other hand the M16 is notorious for the tumbling trajectory of its lighter weight bullet that causes devastating wounds at 200 yards where it achieves maximum "spin". (Ask the Palestinian doctors who treat Israeli Defence Force victims.) The wounding power of the M16 is far greater than the heavier AK47 bullet or the same calibre bullet fired from a sniper rifle. The tumbling trajectory of the M16 bullet makes it totally unsuitable for a sniper's rifle that needs to be accurate to 1,000 yards and up. I am sorry but your information is nonsense.

[NCFC]

Friend passed me this link on Facebook and I wanted to share this because I think it is a thoughtful and true understanding of what really happened in the past 2 months and even years.

============================================

Bangkok: To Misunderstand is the Greatest LossShare

Today at 11:48am

Dear Friends,

Yesterday was a day of tragedy for our city and our country. Not since the sacking of our ancient city of Ayudhya has Thailand come under attack in such a manner. And just as then, everything burned. Only this time, it was our own fellow Thais, bred of hatred and greed that did this.

After government forces broke through to the main protest site at Rajaprasong, and the remaining core Red leaders surrendered to authorities, there began a well organized and systematic series of arson attacks on major commercial, financial, and government buildings. The list is long and by now well documented on the front pages of every newspaper in the country. What I found of note was that during the surrender speech, it was the protesters who were most unhappy with the declaration of the 'end' of the fight. Let us be very clear, that after months and some might say years of political and emotional brainwashing, the Red masses now had a mind of their own, and it was apparent that these leaders were quick to wash their hands free of responsibility for the incitement they had created, manipulated and funded for the past three years.

So I ask you all now to once again understand the situation for what it is. This was never a fight for democracy, for fair elections, or even a fight to destroy some invisible barrier against the poor built by the rich. Barriers that never existed in this country beyond the realities of any other developing nation. Last night was the true colors of the movement showing itself for all its shamelessness. This fight was always about political manipulation of the worst kind. It was about a continued and heavily financed campaign of disinformation that lead people to their deaths on the streets of Bangkok and then the blame was cast back at the government. The government did not lead people into the streets. The government did not tell people to set buildings on fire and endanger entire communities. The government did not use force first. These are undeniable. You cannot pose there waving the Thai flag in your hand, claiming to be fighting for this country and at the same time stand by and laugh, clap and dance (as witnessed on TV) as you set this country on fire. That is an image that will forever be engrained into the minds of many Thais.

I was appalled to read some of the comments on the websites of many major news organizations who covered Thailand. I will not begin the debate here about the lack of impartial coverage, that has been well highlighted and argued. What shocks me is the narrow mindedness of individuals who commented from around the world on our government's authoritarian 'crack down'. Not only un-educated individuals, but even the audacity of an organization like Amnesty International, some of whose members I actually consider my friends to make an uninformed, and quite frankly dangerous statement saying that the government was using unnecessary force on unarmed, peaceful protesters. This is the kind of lie that undermines the noteworthy principles of Amnesty international. The organization's country head should be sacked for writing such blatant rubbish, thereby compromising his own mission in Thailand. Do these people have eyes? Do they not see that this government tried so hard to use peaceful means for the last two months to the point where their stance became their biggest weakness? I have never in all my years of living in numerous countries, seen any government who had the patience (justified or not) to deal with such violent and ill-intentioned protesters as peacefully as I have seen here. Not until the country had reach its breaking point, did the government crack down. And I say now, that the majority of people here feel deep down to their core that these actions were absolutely and completely justified.

The tragedy is the misunderstanding. That is what got our country into this mess, and it is also what makes fools of people who comment on things they know nothing about. They think because some poor farmer stands in the middle of the road crying out 'democracy' that that is a battle of the disadvantaged for justice. But if they knew that that farmer sold his land under a scheme by the former PM to foreigners, and now was left only with the remnants of the cash he earned and is angry at this government for not subsidizing the rice prices because he is now only a middle man without land. They foolishly believe that that farmer was systematically prevented from access to opportunities... when in fact he robbed himself of those opportunities when he supported a man who lied to him, who gave him 'tea money' for his vote. And he looks to us as the one who wronged him. He and his like wronged themselves a long time ago. They shout at the coup plotters. They decry that this government is backed by military force. But the reality is democracy is a fluid state of governance. And especially one that is still maturing like Thailand, you cannot stick to absolutes. Remember, America was built on the ashes of a violent revolution, and even after hundreds of years, people in the United Kingdom still had to form a government out of coalition. Democracy is varied. Don't stand there and point fingers at this administration saying they never won an election. Winning an election is only as worthy as the transparency of those votes.

What we can all learn from this is that sometimes what you most want to achieve can be destroyed by your actions. These Red leaders for months have threatened violence on a grand scale in order to change the 'rule' of this country. Well in a moment of desperation their gang of supporters achieved that last night. Violence on a grand scale that hasn't been seen in Thailand in over 200 years. But they have destroyed their goal. Thais have a knack for friendliness and forgiveness, this is a well known trait. But last night, nation wide was fomented a deep sense of resolute purpose. That many people will never forgive these so-called protesters for what they did. What their actions represent, and all who supported them.

Thais are a resilient people, what was burned can be rebuilt and Bangkok will set about doing just that. But these protesters, what they fought for they will now begin to pay a very long and heavy price. For there will be no sympathy, or compassion, or understanding for their suffering in the future. Which is a loss indeed... Because compassion is something we Thais always have for one another. Maybe one day we will come to understand how this one man Thaksin Shinawatra, literally because of his own bitterness managed to nearly destroy a country. That will probably be about the same time I begin to understand how some people could champion his cause as something that was justified, when it was never at all. This man hid behind the veil of democracy and blinded an entire swath of our population.

The tragedy is all those poor souls out there who are only too happy to give their 2 cents worth on a matter they didn't know anything about.

I pity them. But as for Bangkok, we will survive and flourish once again.

Huh?

[xenomorph]

Regarding Thaksin...

I just found an Anti-Thaksin music track that circulated around during Thaksins latest election campaign. I thought I've lost the CD, but I found it in stoved box. Must have been around 2005 I'll guess. Anyway... It's a bit of historic material that deserves to be saved for coming generations.

If you're not so great on the Thai language, let your Thai wife of GF translate the lyrics for you. It's quite fun actually.

http://soundcloud.com/expat/song-about-thaksin

I made it downloadable for anyone who wants a personal copy.

Cheers!

.

Edited May 20, 2010 by xenomorph

[EarthAlien]

Every time I hear that the poor are left behind with democracy in a same sentence I start laughing since they are oxymoron. If they want to carry the poor by the rest of the society then you need to have communism or socialism government.

As we know both do not work in globalizes world. The poor have to realize they cannot continue to get handout from the middle and high class. They need to work to develop themselves and the best is to invest in their children education. But over her that is the last thing of the Thai poor in particular the Red Shirt that they think about. They brought their children to the rally site, endangering them. It seem over here the children are commodities, and can be used as the family pleases.

So Mr./Mrs. Red Shirt you want equality, become educated and work hard for it. No one is willing to give handout for ever

*Applause!*

In simple terms, it all comes down to human energy doesn't it. How much energy did they waste travelling all the way down here, sitting on red-hot pavements in the summer heat for 9 weeks, drawing their own blood for ''paintings'', street battles, dancing in tents etc.etc. That is a whole hel_l of a lot of actual real energy.

If that energy were put into buildings, setting up home workshops, teaching kids important home skills cooking/weaving/carpentry stuff you can actually do when there's lots of forests. Community projects, grassroots enterprises. Kalahari tribesmen put their scant energy to good use in crafts and communal education, and they've got far worse environmental situation.

The last 9 weeks have just been such a huge waste of energy, even overlooking the damage and death caused by the red mob, its just tragic to think what they could have done instead with all that energy back home.

Exactly,... very good point and observation and creative suggestion regards the reconstituting of misdirected energies. Only one problem with that... which is that your conceptual plan would essentially require the application of one critically imperative ingredient.... INITIATIVE & MOTIVATION,... and with no disrespect intended this is not currently an engendered quality or characteristic that is possessed by these people,..and that's why they're easily led and sold lies of the easy life and notions of "it's your turn to ride the gravy train" that are complete fabrications to win votes and launch false causes!

[Arkady]

something to think about

Suthikiart Jirathiwat and Pracha Maleenont are quite close to Thaksin Shinawatra. They are still on good terms. If the reds set the blaze it would not make sense at all.

Places burnt down are symbolic of regime/system and representation of success. However the perpetrators are sparing many business locations

Dusit, MBK, ASTV, Nation, SisaoTewes, Pullman Kingpower, all left untouched.

Those would've been the reds' targets. Remember who was feuding with Central and BEC before all of this? Who was the biggest enemy of the Central Group and Ch. 3 in the past 3 years? The direct beneficiary of the fire is not reds or Thaksin...it's the man who feuded.

The fire kills 5 birds with one stone: Channel 3, Central, Thaksin, Reds, Anti-Monarchists. Pongpat was used. Game over for Thaksin as he and reds are delegitimized, while opponents of Central/Bangkok Bank/BEC benefit. Think about this for a minute and you'll realise the missing jigsaw of this puzzle.

The men behind the blaze are the men who wanted to drive BEC/Central/BBL out of business and blame it on protestors. The fires irrevocably end the reds shirts movement for now, while Thaksin cannot conceivably ever return to politics or even to Thai soil.

The victims of the fire are not Thaksin/Reds's enemies. They are the enemies of Thaksin's enemies. Ultra-hardcore-right-winged conservative types stand to benefit from this chaos.

Watch the aftermath closely and you'll see. Those who are desperate about clinging on to power are required to create an element of fear in the heart of its population. The incentive is greater than those who are aspiring to attain power.

People will go to great lengths to protect remaining interests while the threat is eliminated to foster a rally-round-the-regime type of feeling.

The goal of the movement to eliminate Thaksin forever from the system was not accomplished until today. It is end-game for him. We lose. Regime wins.

May I stress not coincidence ASTV, Nation, PullmanKingPower, Dusit remain untouched. This battle is deeper than what meets the eyes. And SiSao is untouched.

This is so badly written with so much imbedded innuendo it is impossible to know what you are driving at. Re Central you have missed a very obvious link. The Chiratiwat Family owns 14% of Bangkok Post which has not been very sympathetic to Thaksin or the reds. In addition the Chiratiwat holding proved to be the stumbling block that prevented Grammy from taking over The Post as Thaksin's nominee which might have had a big impact on his English language coverage. Re BEC. Yes, Pracha was cozy with Thaksin once upon a time when he was a deputy minister in the first TRT government. However, this coziness might not have endured after Pracha was humiliated in the TRT government several times and finally Thaksin stole two popular anchors from Channel 3 for his own ITV station. At any rate Channel 3 has also not been too flattering about the red shirts. At any rate, it is not destroyed. It is going back on the air tomorrow.

The rest is so obscure I can't comment on it. Maybe you are trying to allude to the saucy pictures scandal involving a former wife of some one connected to Central and a military officer that was alleged to have been the reason for the fire at Central Chidlom. I don't know. Can you be a bit more explicit?

Personally I think much of the burning, especially Central, was planned well in advance, although some may have been targets of opportunity.

[pornsasi]

This is really worth a reading ...

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LE13Ae01.html

It is worth a reading indeed.

Division is clearly part of their plan. What the government needs to do is not just busing them back to where they were right away. But to re-educate them. Many of them will be enlightened and even become excellent human resource for democracy. Failing to do so will only allow Thaksin to continue planting seeds of hatred.

Reeducate them to vote dems ?

Sounds familiar . Abhisit the new Pol Pot or Mao Tze tung ?

You choose

Good plan ...

Did I say anywhere that they should be re-educated to vote for Dems? Do not keep politicizing every opinion in this thread in your favour.

I hope you will be able to get out of the Red Democracy fantasy. Are you Thai? Shame on you sympathizing with the home wreckers.

For now you are on my ignore list.

Good

[SomchaiCNX]

Khun Pornsasi,

Just tell (ask) your friends to stop buying votes. Ask your other friends to stop selling their votes.

If I neglect a red traffic sign and the police stop me I pay the (full) fine (no bribe) as I made a mistake.

You start to blame the police for stopping you.

I'm the first one to admit that you (I can not vote) need to clean up the whole political scene, so please stop selling your votes.

If you sell your vote you lost your right to speak.

Put those corrupt guys in jail and start again.

But the problem is that they will be replaced by family members of the same extended puyai clan.

To clean up the whole mess, you will have to put in jail at least 80 % of all current and past MP's with all their family members. Followed by 90% of all police above the rank of Colonel (with their families) Than 70 % of all the military guys above the rank of Major.

And the list would go on and on and on and at the end only you and me are left and as I can not vote you would be the one in charge.

[Sisaketmike]

[quote name='Old Man River' date='2010-05-20 17:19:10' post='3624219']

something to think about

Suthikiart Jirathiwat and Pracha Maleenont are quite close to Thaksin Shinawatra. They are still on good terms. If the reds set the blaze it would not make sense at all.

Places burnt down are symbolic of regime/system and representation of success. However the perpetrators are sparing many business locations

Dusit, MBK, ASTV, Nation, SisaoTewes, Pullman Kingpower, all left untouched.

Those would've been the reds' targets. Remember who was feuding with Central and BEC before all of this? Who was the biggest enemy of the Central Group and Ch. 3 in the past 3 years? The direct beneficiary of the fire is not reds or Thaksin...it's the man who feuded.

The fire kills 5 birds with one stone: Channel 3, Central, Thaksin, Reds, Anti-Monarchists. Pongpat was used. Game over for Thaksin as he and reds are delegitimized, while opponents of Central/Bangkok Bank/BEC benefit. Think about this for a minute and you'll realise the missing jigsaw of this puzzle.

The men behind the blaze are the men who wanted to drive BEC/Central/BBL out of business and blame it on protestors. The fires irrevocably end the reds shirts movement for now, while Thaksin cannot conceivably ever return to politics or even to Thai soil.

The victims of the fire are not Thaksin/Reds's enemies. They are the enemies of Thaksin's enemies. Ultra-hardcore-right-winged conservative types stand to benefit from this chaos.

Watch the aftermath closely and you'll see. Those who are desperate about clinging on to power are required to create an element of fear in the heart of its population. The incentive is greater than those who are aspiring to attain power.

People will go to great lengths to protect remaining interests while the threat is eliminated to foster a rally-round-the-regime type of feeling.

The goal of the movement to eliminate Thaksin forever from the system was not accomplished until today. It is end-game for him. We lose. Regime wins.

May I stress not coincidence ASTV, Nation, PullmanKingPower, Dusit remain untouched. This battle is deeper than what meets the eyes. And SiSao is untouched.

This is a post right off twitter from last night. Either you are the original author or you have plagiarized. Which is it?

I assume you are an American that is bastardising the English Lanuguage AGAIN . The word is plagiarism. THERE ARE NO Z's in the word. If you are going to use the English language, use it properly without your americanizms!!! and also stop pronouncing short vowels as long vowels when you talk!!

Warning: posts regarding others spelling and grammar not only hijacks the topic but is poor netiquette. If repeated I will suspend your posting rights without prior warning. I hope you got my point

How can you write something about American English while lots of people are suffering?

[Arkady]

7:27pm: Le Figaro report on Thursday says France is seeking to prevent former premier Thaksin Shinawatra from speaking out in Paris on the political crisis in his homeland. The newspaper alleged earlier that Thaksin was photographed buying luxury goods on the Champs-Elysees while fighting raged on the streets of Bangkok.

Good that the Frogs are giving some thought to this belatedly after letting him in, probably under an alias on his Montegrin passport which doesn't need a visa for France. But more to the point why do they allow him to enter or stay France at all or shouldn't they consider extraditing him to Thailand? I wonder what difference the terrorism charges would make, if they will ever materialize. He would still try to maintain he is the victim of a political frame up but the burned buildings and the dead bodies are real and so, apparently was the withdrawal from his wife's bank account. Many countries might agree to extradite, if the money trial looked solid enough. His existing conviction is for a crime that sounds rather convoluted outside Thailand and it is hard to find an exact equivalent abroad but terrorism is pretty clear cut in more Western jurisdictions. Even Montenegro would have problems. The Monte govt is already facing pressure from the opposition leader over the passport sale to Thaksin and its reputation for harbouring foreign criminals does it no good in its bid to join the EU.

[tlongdon]

7:27pm: Le Figaro report on Thursday says France is seeking to prevent former premier Thaksin Shinawatra from speaking out in Paris on the political crisis in his homeland. The newspaper alleged earlier that Thaksin was photographed buying luxury goods on the Champs-Elysees while fighting raged on the streets of Bangkok.

Good that the Frogs are giving some thought to this belatedly after letting him in, probably under an alias on his Montegrin passport which doesn't need a visa for France. But more to the point why do they allow him to enter or stay France at all or shouldn't they consider extraditing him to Thailand? I wonder what difference the terrorism charges would make, if they will ever materialize. He would still try to maintain he is the victim of a political frame up but the burned buildings and the dead bodies are real and so, apparently was the withdrawal from his wife's bank account. Many countries might agree to extradite, if the money trial looked solid enough. His existing conviction is for a crime that sounds rather convoluted outside Thailand and it is hard to find an exact equivalent abroad but terrorism is pretty clear cut in more Western jurisdictions. Even Montenegro would have problems. The Monte govt is already facing pressure from the opposition leader over the passport sale to Thaksin and its reputation for harbouring foreign criminals does it no good in its bid to join the EU.

I have a feeling this is the same article I was reading in Le Figaro at work this afternoon... unfortunately I can't find exactly the same article on line, as it was pointing out how Great Britain and Germany have outlawed Thaksin, so why was he allowed in France to go shopping etc.

I'm sure there are a few hi-so Thais living in Paris who wouldn't mind knowing which hotel he was staying in... and paying a short visit ;-) My money is on Le Crillon, or unless Thaksin is as tastelessly rich as I imagine, The Ritz, Place Vendome. Any takers??

[Jimi007]

Well the way i look at it , Thailand is retreating from the path of democracy

and becoming like North Korea , except on the ideology of course .

Well one can always think of a retreat , as an advance in another direction .

Ah, I see the REDS are democracy in action? It looked like anarchy in action, to me. You seem to think democracy is a mob insisting new elections, strange point of view. Weng, was the former head of the Thai Communist Party and is still wanting socialism, not democracy. Thailand is a Constitutional Monarchy, not a democracy. The law of the land is the "law", unless you payoff someone. I think, Thaksin tried that with a box of "treats" sent through his lawyers to the Supreme Court of Thailand. I guess it doesn't work all the time! Are you advocating The Kingdom of Thailand should become; The Peoples Republic of Thailand? Interesting viewpoint you've presented in your diatribe I have been reading...

[yesdavy]

Friend passed me this link on Facebook and I wanted to share this because I think it is a thoughtful and true understanding of what really happened in the past 2 months and even years.

============================================

Bangkok: To Misunderstand is the Greatest LossShare

Today at 11:48am

Dear Friends,

Yesterday was a day of tragedy for our city and our country. Not since the sacking of our ancient city of Ayudhya has Thailand come under attack in such a manner. And just as then, everything burned. Only this time, it was our own fellow Thais, bred of hatred and greed that did this.

After government forces broke through to the main protest site at Rajaprasong, and the remaining core Red leaders surrendered to authorities, there began a well organized and systematic series of arson attacks on major commercial, financial, and government buildings. The list is long and by now well documented on the front pages of every newspaper in the country. What I found of note was that during the surrender speech, it was the protesters who were most unhappy with the declaration of the 'end' of the fight. Let us be very clear, that after months and some might say years of political and emotional brainwashing, the Red masses now had a mind of their own, and it was apparent that these leaders were quick to wash their hands free of responsibility for the incitement they had created, manipulated and funded for the past three years.

So I ask you all now to once again understand the situation for what it is. This was never a fight for democracy, for fair elections, or even a fight to destroy some invisible barrier against the poor built by the rich. Barriers that never existed in this country beyond the realities of any other developing nation. Last night was the true colors of the movement showing itself for all its shamelessness. This fight was always about political manipulation of the worst kind. It was about a continued and heavily financed campaign of disinformation that lead people to their deaths on the streets of Bangkok and then the blame was cast back at the government. The government did not lead people into the streets. The government did not tell people to set buildings on fire and endanger entire communities. The government did not use force first. These are undeniable. You cannot pose there waving the Thai flag in your hand, claiming to be fighting for this country and at the same time stand by and laugh, clap and dance (as witnessed on TV) as you set this country on fire. That is an image that will forever be engrained into the minds of many Thais.

I was appalled to read some of the comments on the websites of many major news organizations who covered Thailand. I will not begin the debate here about the lack of impartial coverage, that has been well highlighted and argued. What shocks me is the narrow mindedness of individuals who commented from around the world on our government's authoritarian 'crack down'. Not only un-educated individuals, but even the audacity of an organization like Amnesty International, some of whose members I actually consider my friends to make an uninformed, and quite frankly dangerous statement saying that the government was using unnecessary force on unarmed, peaceful protesters. This is the kind of lie that undermines the noteworthy principles of Amnesty international. The organization's country head should be sacked for writing such blatant rubbish, thereby compromising his own mission in Thailand. Do these people have eyes? Do they not see that this government tried so hard to use peaceful means for the last two months to the point where their stance became their biggest weakness? I have never in all my years of living in numerous countries, seen any government who had the patience (justified or not) to deal with such violent and ill-intentioned protesters as peacefully as I have seen here. Not until the country had reach its breaking point, did the government crack down. And I say now, that the majority of people here feel deep down to their core that these actions were absolutely and completely justified.

The tragedy is the misunderstanding. That is what got our country into this mess, and it is also what makes fools of people who comment on things they know nothing about. They think because some poor farmer stands in the middle of the road crying out 'democracy' that that is a battle of the disadvantaged for justice. But if they knew that that farmer sold his land under a scheme by the former PM to foreigners, and now was left only with the remnants of the cash he earned and is angry at this government for not subsidizing the rice prices because he is now only a middle man without land. They foolishly believe that that farmer was systematically prevented from access to opportunities... when in fact he robbed himself of those opportunities when he supported a man who lied to him, who gave him 'tea money' for his vote. And he looks to us as the one who wronged him. He and his like wronged themselves a long time ago. They shout at the coup plotters. They decry that this government is backed by military force. But the reality is democracy is a fluid state of governance. And especially one that is still maturing like Thailand, you cannot stick to absolutes. Remember, America was built on the ashes of a violent revolution, and even after hundreds of years, people in the United Kingdom still had to form a government out of coalition. Democracy is varied. Don't stand there and point fingers at this administration saying they never won an election. Winning an election is only as worthy as the transparency of those votes.

What we can all learn from this is that sometimes what you most want to achieve can be destroyed by your actions. These Red leaders for months have threatened violence on a grand scale in order to change the 'rule' of this country. Well in a moment of desperation their gang of supporters achieved that last night. Violence on a grand scale that hasn't been seen in Thailand in over 200 years. But they have destroyed their goal. Thais have a knack for friendliness and forgiveness, this is a well known trait. But last night, nation wide was fomented a deep sense of resolute purpose. That many people will never forgive these so-called protesters for what they did. What their actions represent, and all who supported them.

Thais are a resilient people, what was burned can be rebuilt and Bangkok will set about doing just that. But these protesters, what they fought for they will now begin to pay a very long and heavy price. For there will be no sympathy, or compassion, or understanding for their suffering in the future. Which is a loss indeed... Because compassion is something we Thais always have for one another. Maybe one day we will come to understand how this one man Thaksin Shinawatra, literally because of his own bitterness managed to nearly destroy a country. That will probably be about the same time I begin to understand how some people could champion his cause as something that was justified, when it was never at all. This man hid behind the veil of democracy and blinded an entire swath of our population.

The tragedy is all those poor souls out there who are only too happy to give their 2 cents worth on a matter they didn't know anything about.

I pity them. But as for Bangkok, we will survive and flourish once again.

This heartfelt and emotional attempt to explain things seems to have the same condescending tone as every other attempt to explain things. The implication seems to be that you cannot possibly understand so take it from me, to wit., So I ask you all now to once again understand the situation for what it is. This is how elitists talk, is it not? The allusion to brainwashing of the reds may not be confined to political rhetoric from their leaders, it may also encompass seven centuries of conditioning inbred via the Sakdina system--which became institutionalized inequality through law. It mandated that the social ranking of Thai citizens is based on their relative worth (Na) to Thai society as determined by their occupation, wealth, and stature as only Thais fully understand.

It is fine to believe that the government did not lead or incite the violence and mayhem, and they probably didn't, but a belief is not always a fact. There are those that are of the opinon that the U.S. government has many decades of expertise in infiltrating opposition groups to move them to actions detrimental to those groups, swaying popular opinion and causing them to self-destruct, whereas, harsh confrontation could have generated sympathy for them and their cause.

Amnesty International does not need to be defended or condemned for observations that are in line with international standards of human rights. Who would disagree that trained riot police using widely available, non-lethal crowd dispersal methods is more humane than dispatching battalions of armed soldiers firing live ammunition at unarmed Thai and foreign citizens?

It is unclear how the assumption can be drawn that the actions taken against the protesters is absolutely and completely justified by the majority, in the absence of independent, certified polling evidence. Perhaps, an election will substantiate the assumption.

As for Thaksin selling farmers' land to foreigners, is that even possible? A Thai newspaper reported that Thai law not only prohibits foreigners from buying Thai land, but also holds accountable any Thai person, including Thai wives, that facilitate the purchase of Thai land by acting as an agent on behalf of foreigners, including their foreign spouses. Nevertheless, if the disadvantaged farmer was exploited by Thaksin he was exploited by the government, and this diminshes the argument that all the protesting was for Thaksin. It is convenient to rally anti-Thaksin rhetoric as the protesters' cause, but in the absence of hard data to support this it is just supposition. Is it not possible that disadvantaged people that are relegated to the bottom rungs of the social hierarchy by institutionalised inequality are mad as hel_l and aren't going to take it any more?

Fingers being pointed at this administration may be due to the 2006 coup that allowed a junta government an opportunity to stack the courts, election committee, police, constitution, and military to their advantage. Does the reality of democracy being a fluid state justify 18 coups or coup attempts in 78 years? That is one in every 4.33 years since 1932. For the record, America did not overthrow a country, they founded one, and upon that charter they faced the issue of elites exploiting a disadvantaged class of people on the bottom rung of the social hierarchy by mandating them free and equal under the law 148 years ago, which was a good start on a long process.

Blaming Thaksin for Thailand's problems may be giving him more credit that he deserves, but everybody is entitled to an opinion. However, some might call it elitist behavior to proselytize one's own opinions and predictions as facts while condescendingly disregarding others' rights to any divergent opinions.

[mike_rad]

The men behind the blaze are the men who wanted to drive BEC/Central/BBL out of business and blame it on protestors.

It's called false flag - conducting a "terrorist" act so that the blame goes on your adversery. The classic historical case is Operation Gladio, look it up. There have been other noteworthy cases as well, such as the Lavon Affair, King David Hotel bombing, all of which fit this model.

[yesdavy]

Good but one error - Min size of bullets by army is a 308 and that takes out half a football of anything in front of it. The 'execution' of Sae Daeng whilst talking to the NY Times reporter was a black shirt and most likely a .222. Army would have blown his head clean off and it had to be small calibre as he lived for 3 days before expiring. A 308 as said, he would be instantly removed from this life

From my General friends they tell me he was taken down as he was no longer listening to the commands of the reds so they executed him then blamed it on the Govt but there is no way they used small calibre. It was a hit from about 100 metres within the red camp. Forensics will verify. The executioner may never be known.

I think it has been reported that the bullet fragments found in Seh Daeng's head were from a .308 Winchester bullet which can be fired by a variety of hunting and sniper rifles, including but not limited to Winchesters. The metric size of this is 7.62mm which is the same calibre as an AK47. You are completely wrong about this being the smallest size of ammunition used by the army because the M16 which is still the Thai army's standard infantry weapon uses 5.56mm ammuniton, or .223 in inches. In fact the calibre of the bullet doesn't necessarily determine the size of the wound. Sniper rifles are designed for accuracy and distance, not for their stopping power and wounding capablities. On the other hand the M16 is notorious for the tumbling trajectory of its lighter weight bullet that causes devastating wounds at 200 yards where it achieves maximum "spin". (Ask the Palestinian doctors who treat Israeli Defence Force victims.) The wounding power of the M16 is far greater than the heavier AK47 bullet or the same calibre bullet fired from a sniper rifle. The tumbling trajectory of the M16 bullet makes it totally unsuitable for a sniper's rifle that needs to be accurate to 1,000 yards and up. I am sorry but your information is nonsense.

Spot on with the M-16 data, but it was reported that Seh Daeng was assassinated by a sniper, not by a sniper rifle, from an estimated distance of 100 meters. Again, you are spot on about the M-16 not being the rifle of choice for a battlefield sniper where distances of a click or more are required. Nevertheless, the M-16 is considered point accurate to 550 meters, and area accurate to 800 meters. Also, it appeared that there were images of army snipers using scoped M-16s from bunkered positions.

[souvenirdeparis]

Paris demande le silence à Thaksin I've translated most

AFP

20/05/2010 | Mise à jour : 21:19 just out in the French press ( Le Figaro)

Le ministère français des Affaires étrangères a demandé à l'ex-premier ministre thaïlandais en exil Thaksin Shinawatra de s'abstenir de toute prise de position publique en France, he intends to have a public speech on the 31st in spite of a ban mais ce dernier compte passer outre et s'exprimer le 31 mai, selon un institut de recherche. "Compte tenu du contexte de violences en Thaïlande que nous avons fermement condamné hier encore, nous avons fait savoir à M. Thaksin, en séjour strictement privé en France, qu'il devait s'abstenir de toute manifestation ou déclaration publiques pendant son séjour sur notre territoire", a déclaré le porte-parole du ministère, Bernard Valero.

owing to the current violence in T we made him know he must refrain from public expression during his purely private visit

"Ce sont des menaces, these are obscure threats (sic) , the meeting organizer said, Mr T doesn't understand why he is forbidden to speak assez peu claires, et M. Thaksin n'a pas compris à quel titre on lui interdit de parler", a réagi jeudi soir Fabien Baussart, président du Center of Political and Foreign Affaires, un institut de recherche qui organise à Paris le 31 mai un dîner-débat entre l'ex-premier ministre et des journalistes. "Cette rencontre est maintenue", a-t-il assuré.

this journalists- Taksin meeting will take place"

"Ni le Quai d'Orsay, dont le directeur Asie, Paul-Jean Ortiz, the director of foreign affairs for Asia, went to T's hotel himself to notify him a été jeudi matin dans l'hôtel de M. Thaksin à 200 mètres de l'Elysée lui interdire de s'exprimer, ni Jean-David Levitte", conseiller diplomatique du président Nicolas Sarkozy, "ne m'ont informé de cette décision", s'est insurgé Fabien Baussart. the organizer is pissed off because neither foreign affairs nor Sarko's advisor told him.

Thaksin Shinawatra "était depuis une semaine à Paris et l'Elysée avait été prévenu de sa présence, personne ne s'est opposé à celle-ci",he' had been here a week and nobody opposed his visiting , Mr T never called to revolt " a-t-il précisé, en faisant part de son incompréhension face à l'attitude du ministère français des Affaires étrangères. "M. Thaksin n'a jamais appelé à la révolte", a-t-il fait valoir.

I'm so sorry he is right in the heart of Paris of all places at the moment, with the foreign affairs going to his hotel , as if France needed to slight the govt of Thaïland.

sorry I couldn't make it easier to read.

Edited May 20, 2010 by souvenirdeparis

[mike_rad]

Haven't you heard of Babelfish?

[nakachalet]

JUCEL.... dear:

do you have any hard fact or primary source for what you wrote below....?

did you really know.... why bangkok banks were hit the hardest and repeatedly.....?

as far as revenge and vengeance go.... the redshirts were merely paying back in kind, if and when they can.... to those whoever

refused to support and/or send them aide, tribute, food and drink.... during their outings....

and whatever happened to those establishments that provided food and lodging for the redleaders....?

care to examine facts a little closer pls.... ?

friend.... there is no one who eliminated tuksin as you so eloquently described....

it is tuksin who unwittingly destroys himself.... at the end....

why do you blame it on the old man at taywait.... for tuksin's greed and failure to recapture his former glory....?

where we are from.... under democracy.... you are entitled to your opinion.... but pls do not try to blame someone else for ones' own selfishness and insatiable greed....

stop blaming the old man at taywait.... you are talking like the redshirt leaders.... whatever they can not understand.... whatever they can not explain.... whatever they can not conquer.... IT MUST BE THE OLD MAN AT TAYWIAT WHO IS BEHIND ALL THESE....

surely i would regard you an educated man.... far more educated than many of the redshirt leaders....

<but do not get me wrong.... some of my family members were consistent contributors to tuksin.... they are in the sort of industries that employ hundreds of esaan helpers....>

pls.... do not try to explain nor infer that those dressed in black with arms.... and those arsonists.... were members of the govt agencies....

something to think about

Suthikiart Jirathiwat and Pracha Maleenont are quite close to Thaksin Shinawatra. They are still on good terms. If the reds set the blaze it would not make sense at all.

Places burnt down are symbolic of regime/system and representation of success. However the perpetrators are sparing many business locations

Dusit, MBK, ASTV, Nation, SisaoTewes, Pullman Kingpower, all left untouched.

Those would've been the reds' targets. Remember who was feuding with Central and BEC before all of this? Who was the biggest enemy of the Central Group and Ch. 3 in the past 3 years? The direct beneficiary of the fire is not reds or Thaksin...it's the man who feuded.

The fire kills 5 birds with one stone: Channel 3, Central, Thaksin, Reds, Anti-Monarchists. Pongpat was used. Game over for Thaksin as he and reds are delegitimized, while opponents of Central/Bangkok Bank/BEC benefit. Think about this for a minute and you'll realise the missing jigsaw of this puzzle.

The men behind the blaze are the men who wanted to drive BEC/Central/BBL out of business and blame it on protestors. The fires irrevocably end the reds shirts movement for now, while Thaksin cannot conceivably ever return to politics or even to Thai soil.

The victims of the fire are not Thaksin/Reds's enemies. They are the enemies of Thaksin's enemies. Ultra-hardcore-right-winged conservative types stand to benefit from this chaos.

Watch the aftermath closely and you'll see. Those who are desperate about clinging on to power are required to create an element of fear in the heart of its population. The incentive is greater than those who are aspiring to attain power.

People will go to great lengths to protect remaining interests while the threat is eliminated to foster a rally-round-the-regime type of feeling.

The goal of the movement to eliminate Thaksin forever from the system was not accomplished until today. It is end-game for him. We lose. Regime wins.

May I stress not coincidence ASTV, Nation, PullmanKingPower, Dusit remain untouched. This battle is deeper than what meets the eyes. And SiSao is untouched.

Edited May 20, 2010 by nakachalet

[enginerevision]

Well the way i look at it , Thailand is retreating from the path of democracy

and becoming like North Korea , except on the ideology of course .

Well one can always think of a retreat , as an advance in another direction .

Ah, I see the REDS are democracy in action? It looked like anarchy in action, to me. You seem to think democracy is a mob insisting new elections, strange point of view. Weng, was the former head of the Thai Communist Party and is still wanting socialism, not democracy. Thailand is a Constitutional Monarchy, not a democracy. The law of the land is the "law", unless you payoff someone. I think, Thaksin tried that with a box of "treats" sent through his lawyers to the Supreme Court of Thailand. I guess it doesn't work all the time! Are you advocating The Kingdom of Thailand should become; The Peoples Republic of Thailand? Interesting viewpoint you've presented in your diatribe I have been reading...

Yup

[souvenirdeparis]

This is really worth a reading ...

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Southeast_Asia/LE13Ae01.html

yes, it really is .

[LaoPo]

Warning: posts regarding others spelling and grammar not only hijacks the topic but is poor netiquette. If repeated I will suspend your posting rights without prior warning. I hope you got my point

is netiquette actually a word?

*sorry could not help myself*

Yes, since 1983.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netiquette see History

LaoPo

[tlongdon]

AFP

20/05/2010 | Mise à jour : 21:19 just out in the French press ( Le Figaro

Thaksin Shinawatra "était depuis une semaine à Paris et l'Elysée avait été prévenu de sa présence, personne ne s'est opposé à celle-ci",

sorry I couldn't make it easier to read.

I have NEVER been so disappointed in a European country, as I am with France right now (and I am 1km from Thaksin's hotel... if it's 200m from the Elysee palace, it has to be the Hotel Crillon). The gouvernement should be ashamed and embarrassed.

M. Thaksin n'a pas compris à quel titre on lui interdit de parler

Which simply shows he's either f*cking retarded, or has realised that the Western Press thinks he's some innocent guy. They (the western press) really believes Thaksin's side of things. It's again, embarrasing.

[tlongdon]

DAVID CAMERON - you are in Paris right now, having dinner with President Sarkozy. Next door is Thaksin.

Do your duty, and demand the French president to arrest and repatriate the international fugitive.

(anyone got Cameron's mobile number - I'll drop him a text)

[RKASA]

JUCEL.... dear:

do you have any hard fact or primary source for what you wrote below....?

did you really know.... why bangkok banks were hit the hardest and repeatedly.....?

as far as revenge and vengeance go.... the redshirts were merely paying back in kind, if and when they can.... to those whoever

refused to support and/or send them aide, tribute, food and drink.... during their outings....

and whatever happened to those establishments that provided food and lodging for the redleaders....?

care to examine facts a little closer pls.... ?

friend.... there is no one who eliminated tuksin as you so eloquently described....

it is tuksin who unwittingly destroys himself.... at the end....

why do you blame it on the old man at taywait.... for tuksin's greed and failure to recapture his former glory....?

where we are from.... under democracy.... you are entitled to your opinion.... but pls do not try to blame someone else for ones' own selfishness and insatiable greed....

stop blaming the old man at taywait.... you are talking like the redshirt leaders.... whatever they can not understand.... whatever they can not explain.... whatever they can not conquer.... IT MUST BE THE OLD MAN AT TAYWIAT WHO IS BEHIND ALL THESE....

surely i would regard you an educated man.... far more educated than many of the redshirt leaders....

<but do not get me wrong.... some of my family members were consistent contributors to tuksin.... they are in the sort of industries that employ hundreds of esaan helpers....>

pls.... do not try to explain nor infer that those dressed in black with arms.... and those arsonists.... were members of the govt agencies....

something to think about

Suthikiart Jirathiwat and Pracha Maleenont are quite close to Thaksin Shinawatra. They are still on good terms. If the reds set the blaze it would not make sense at all.

Places burnt down are symbolic of regime/system and representation of success. However the perpetrators are sparing many business locations

Dusit, MBK, ASTV, Nation, SisaoTewes, Pullman Kingpower, all left untouched.

Those would've been the reds' targets. Remember who was feuding with Central and BEC before all of this? Who was the biggest enemy of the Central Group and Ch. 3 in the past 3 years? The direct beneficiary of the fire is not reds or Thaksin...it's the man who feuded.

The fire kills 5 birds with one stone: Channel 3, Central, Thaksin, Reds, Anti-Monarchists. Pongpat was used. Game over for Thaksin as he and reds are delegitimized, while opponents of Central/Bangkok Bank/BEC benefit. Think about this for a minute and you'll realise the missing jigsaw of this puzzle.

The men behind the blaze are the men who wanted to drive BEC/Central/BBL out of business and blame it on protestors. The fires irrevocably end the reds shirts movement for now, while Thaksin cannot conceivably ever return to politics or even to Thai soil.

The victims of the fire are not Thaksin/Reds's enemies. They are the enemies of Thaksin's enemies. Ultra-hardcore-right-winged conservative types stand to benefit from this chaos.

Watch the aftermath closely and you'll see. Those who are desperate about clinging on to power are required to create an element of fear in the heart of its population. The incentive is greater than those who are aspiring to attain power.

People will go to great lengths to protect remaining interests while the threat is eliminated to foster a rally-round-the-regime type of feeling.

The goal of the movement to eliminate Thaksin forever from the system was not accomplished until today. It is end-game for him. We lose. Regime wins.

May I stress not coincidence ASTV, Nation, PullmanKingPower, Dusit remain untouched. This battle is deeper than what meets the eyes. And SiSao is untouched.

Policeman: What are you young people rebelling for anyway?

Marlin Brando: What you got pops?

[RKASA]

AFP

20/05/2010 | Mise à jour : 21:19 just out in the French press ( Le Figaro

Thaksin Shinawatra "était depuis une semaine à Paris et l'Elysée avait été prévenu de sa présence, personne ne s'est opposé à celle-ci",

sorry I couldn't make it easier to read.

I have NEVER been so disappointed in a European country, as I am with France right now (and I am 1km from Thaksin's hotel... if it's 200m from the Elysee palace, it has to be the Hotel Crillon). The gouvernement should be ashamed and embarrassed.

M. Thaksin n'a pas compris à quel titre on lui interdit de parler

Which simply shows he's either f*cking retarded, or has realised that the Western Press thinks he's some innocent guy. They (the western press) really believes Thaksin's side of things. It's again, embarrasing.

http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/S...ory_529109.html

according to Le Figaro only, note he is in London now.

[eggomaniac]

No time to read all 5 Pages. I hope some bright sparks mentioned Thailand is heading for a break up into, at least, 3 countries!

It's a matter of published record I predicted these events and the criticism at the time is also on record. Over and over again I warned the red movement was underestimated. I tried to ewxplain it was like a beach where the water had gone, that the tsunami was coming.

Thaksin could have dropped into a hole and the events would have occured. I visited University professors and Rep from the KPI to offer Remedies that would have certainly stopped the demonstrations from happening.

If they want stability and peace, within weeks, they will, finally, listen to the ONLY POSSIBLE way out, The Joseph Solution.

Thailand could be a G30 Nation within 5 to 10 years!

[Siam Simon]

AFP

20/05/2010 | Mise à jour : 21:19 just out in the French press ( Le Figaro

Thaksin Shinawatra "était depuis une semaine à Paris et l'Elysée avait été prévenu de sa présence, personne ne s'est opposé à celle-ci",

sorry I couldn't make it easier to read.

I have NEVER been so disappointed in a European country, as I am with France right now (and I am 1km from Thaksin's hotel... if it's 200m from the Elysee palace, it has to be the Hotel Crillon). The gouvernement should be ashamed and embarrassed.

M. Thaksin n'a pas compris à quel titre on lui interdit de parler

Which simply shows he's either f*cking retarded, or has realised that the Western Press thinks he's some innocent guy. They (the western press) really believes Thaksin's side of things. It's again, embarrasing.

http://www.straitstimes.com/BreakingNews/S...ory_529109.html

according to Le Figaro only, note he is in London now.

If true, how did he get into the UK? Don't Montenegrins require an applied-for in advance temporary visa?