21,000 Baht Fine For Overstay

[brahmburgers]

Why do they call it 'a fine' can't the English language find a better word? Fine is also an adjective meaning: 'very good.'

So this elder German friend of mine applies for a visa to go to another SE Asian country from Thailand. The travel agency informs him to go to Mae Sai Imm right away, he's overstayed. He doesn't know what 'overstay' means, but he goes the next day.

Turns out, earlier he got a 1 year visa for Thailand in Germany. He didn't know he had to renew it every 90 days. The guy is daft. He's hard of hearing, and missing a few cylinders, if you know what I mean. He's like a retired Santa's helper, wouldn't hurt a flea.

So Imm fines him the full tally of 200 baht times 105 days = 21,000 baht. Maybe they did it with glee, I don't know, I wasn't there.

Ok, most everyone reading this will say, "he should have known" "it was his stupid fault" etc. But the point of this post is to underscore the heartless mechanizations of the Imm dept people. They can plainly see the guy made an honest mistake (Yes we know; in Thailand that only works as an excuse for billionaires, not little old farang men). They could have had a modicum of mercy on the guy and maybe fined him a few thousand baht. But no, they had to tally the entire amount and stiff it to him.

It doesn't bode well for the German visa issuers who should have made it very clear to him; about the 90 day rule. But most of all, the episode reflects badly on the Mae Sai Imm people - on how callous they administer their rules.

[jitenshaman]

you are right in all your points, BUT...it does say on the entry stamp up until when the entry stay is valid until. I have a few Santa type friends who make this mistake all the time and it ends up hurting them.

[Lite Beer]

So Imm fines him the full tally of 200 baht times 105 days = 21,000 baht. Maybe they did it with glee, I don't know, I wasn't there.

The fine for overstay is 500 Baht a day up to a maximum of 20,000 Baht.

He was in the country illegally why should they ignore the law.

[gotlost]

He got what he deserved.

[kurnell]

He got what he deserved.

Oh sigh! Why do you even bother?

[moto77]

Tell him to be glad the punishment in Thailand is so lenient. In the US he would have been deported and banned for three years.

[lovelomsak]

I would like to add some people are wrongly informed also. Last year a friend and his wife came here for 6 month holiday. The travel agent told them they had a 6 month visa , no visa runs ,no report ,6 months of hassle free time. I told them that was wrong they need to report every 60 days. They dismissed my info and when they left they had to pay 20,000 baht each to leave the country. But nothing new there many people dismiss what I say, and prefer faulse info if it serves their neeeds at the moment.

[monty]

I think he did not overstay his visa, but rather neglected to do his 90 day reporting.

In this situation, as he turned himself in, the maximum fine would be 2000 Baht plus 200 Baht per day he is late reporting. The 200 Baht/day is very seldom charged, even the 2000 Baht is often waived if you apologize with an acceptable reason.

If he would not have turned himself in the maximum fine would have been 5000 Baht plus the 200/day.

Indeed, when you enter on a non immigrant O-A, nowhere on the paper/stamps/passport it is made clear you have to report after 90 days. This should have been made clear by the issuing authority (embassy/consulate).

Same way if immigration here in Thailand issue a 1 year extension, they will tell you to report in 90 days.

[cshort64]

Good Morning;

I have read several of these stories here where people have overstayed visa's or have been confused regarding the dates that they should leave, etc. I have been told as well that the maximum fine at the airport is 20,000 baht when you overstay, but one question I have never seen answered is, "does the immigration stamp your passport with OVERSTAY or ban you from coming back?" I have lived for many years in Taiwan and they did this for people that overstayed by 6 months or more, in Singapore they are more strict indeed, but I am curious about here?

Anyone know for sure?

Cheers

CHS

[culicine]

We don;t know what visa this is for a start. Is it a retirement visa or an O-A. There is no 90-day reporting for the O-A as you are supposed to leave every 90 days anyway. It sounds like he has an O-A and didn't leave the country. Should have been 20K baht fine max anyway. For the O-A there is a large stamp that gives the permission to stay (for the year), and a smaller stamp that tells you to to leave after the 90-day period. The old guy probably only say the large stamp. I would hope embassies are clearer about the rules, especially for old folks who might not have all their faculties!

[beano2274]

I think he did not overstay his visa, but rather neglected to do his 90 day reporting.

In this situation, as he turned himself in, the maximum fine would be 2000 Baht plus 200 Baht per day he is late reporting. The 200 Baht/day is very seldom charged, even the 2000 Baht is often waived if you apologize with an acceptable reason.

If he would not have turned himself in the maximum fine would have been 5000 Baht plus the 200/day.

Indeed, when you enter on a non immigrant O-A, nowhere on the paper/stamps/passport it is made clear you have to report after 90 days. This should have been made clear by the issuing authority (embassy/consulate).

Same way if immigration here in Thailand issue a 1 year extension, they will tell you to report in 90 days.

I agree Monty, however are the Embassy/Consulate staff actually aware of the 90 Day Reporting, I suggest not. Proper training would ensure that correct viable information would be passed to the applicant.

[Sam Drucker]

These people need to look at their passports after they get stamped in at the border and confirm everything is right, and that they know how long their stay is valid. Besides just being aware of that date, there could be errors. I have so many used pages in my passport, that sometimes the guys don't find the visa and just stamp me in with a visa on arrival (30 day stamp.) So then I have to hand it back to them and take them to the page with my current visa.

People like the OP described probably shouldn't be travelling internationally if they can't manage these basic affairs for traveling by themselves, or they should have a handler to insure all is okay for them.

I don't see anything wrong with how Thai immigration handled this. If I did the same, I would not expect a discount on the published fine.

[monty]

We don;t know what visa this is for a start. Is it a retirement visa or an O-A. There is no 90-day reporting for the O-A as you are supposed to leave every 90 days anyway. It sounds like he has an O-A and didn't leave the country. Should have been 20K baht fine max anyway. For the O-A there is a large stamp that gives the permission to stay (for the year), and a smaller stamp that tells you to to leave after the 90-day period. The old guy probably only say the large stamp. I would hope embassies are clearer about the rules, especially for old folks who might not have all their faculties!

Nope, the Non immigrant O-A visa gives you 365 days when entering Thailand, and as such requires the holder to do 90 day address reporting.

And this is NOT mentioned anywhere in text or with a date stamp in your passport!

Either the embassy/consulate tells you, or you have to find out yourself!

[lopburi3]

1. You are stamped into the country for one year on an OA visa - you do not need to travel and unless it is a multi entry you can not travel without a re-entry permit or your stay ends on departure.

2. If you stay in the country more than 90 days address reporting is required.

3. As said - we do not know what kind of visa the second party had - only that it appears he was caught in violation of Immigration requirements.

[rafish]

this guy got off easy. The law states that 500 baht per day is the fine for overstays, not 200 as reported by you. Immigration does have a kind heart unless you're already a prejudiced foreigner. I was also caught in this circumstance once and was 20 days over the time allotted. The immigration official informed me of my obligations under the renewal of visa requirements in Thailand, then smiled and stamped my book. No fine and no hassles. Attitude is very important and your attitude is what makes the difference between good relationships and poor ones. I suspect this is the case in your instance?

[monty]

Good Morning;

I have read several of these stories here where people have overstayed visa's or have been confused regarding the dates that they should leave, etc. I have been told as well that the maximum fine at the airport is 20,000 baht when you overstay, but one question I have never seen answered is, "does the immigration stamp your passport with OVERSTAY or ban you from coming back?" I have lived for many years in Taiwan and they did this for people that overstayed by 6 months or more, in Singapore they are more strict indeed, but I am curious about here?

Anyone know for sure?

Cheers

CHS

Yes, they put a small stamp in your passport, but this has no effect on future travel into Thailand.

[beano2274]

this guy got off easy. The law states that 500 baht per day is the fine for overstays, not 200 as reported by you. Immigration does have a kind heart unless you're already a prejudiced foreigner. I was also caught in this circumstance once and was 20 days over the time allotted. The immigration official informed me of my obligations under the renewal of visa requirements in Thailand, then smiled and stamped my book. No fine and no hassles. Attitude is very important and your attitude is what makes the difference between good relationships and poor ones. I suspect this is the case in your instance?

I think you will find Monty is talking about the fine for not reporting, not overstay. The OP suggests 200baht as he is also not sure, the fine is 500baht per day, Maximum 20,000baht, not 21,000 unless someone got some extra cash.

Edited May 23, 2010 by beano2274

[IsaanAndy]

We don;t know what visa this is for a start. Is it a retirement visa or an O-A. There is no 90-day reporting for the O-A as you are supposed to leave every 90 days anyway. It sounds like he has an O-A and didn't leave the country. Should have been 20K baht fine max anyway. For the O-A there is a large stamp that gives the permission to stay (for the year), and a smaller stamp that tells you to to leave after the 90-day period. The old guy probably only say the large stamp. I would hope embassies are clearer about the rules, especially for old folks who might not have all their faculties!

Nope, the Non immigrant O-A visa gives you 365 days when entering Thailand, and as such requires the holder to do 90 day address reporting.

And this is NOT mentioned anywhere in text or with a date stamp in your passport!

Either the embassy/consulate tells you, or you have to find out yourself!

Not all O visas require you to leave the country, if you have O based on marriage to a Thai and apply and get the 1 year extn, all you have to do is a 90 day address report at your allocated Imm office without leaving the country.

[beano2274]

IsaanAndy - we realise that we need to do 90 day reporting, however no-one actually informs you, most of us find out from colleagues or from ThaiVisa, I for one found out by reading it here. This is were the OP's friend has come a cropper.

Actually anyone who stays longer than 90 days must report, does not matter if Non Immigrant or Tourist Visa or whatever.

[jackdawson]

They could have had a modicum of mercy on the guy

mercy ? in asia ? no such animal (u saw WW II right ?)

[monty]

IsaanAndy - we realise that we need to do 90 day reporting, however no-one actually informs you, most of us find out from colleagues or from ThaiVisa, I for one found out by reading it here. This is were the OP's friend has come a cropper.

Actually anyone who stays longer than 90 days must report, does not matter if Non Immigrant or Tourist Visa or whatever.

Well, to be honest, if an immigration office in Thailand gives you a 1 year extension, they will tell you to do the 90 day report.

The problem seems to come from people being issued a visa which entitles them to 365 days straight away when entering Thailand.

It is them where nobody informs them of the 90 day reporting rule.

[Lite Beer]

Not all O visas require you to leave the country, if you have O based on marriage to a Thai and apply and get the 1 year extn, all you have to do is a 90 day address report at your allocated Imm office without leaving the country.

An O Visa only gives you permision to stay for 90 days.

If you have an Extension of Stay based on your Marriage (not a visa) you have to report every 90 days.

Note. You are extending your permission to stay. You are not extending your O Visa. That is dead and gone.

[FarangBuddha]

It is harsh but it is also the law. However, considering the tourism numbers...immigration should be the ones paying over-stayers money in thanks for even bothering to come to Thailand...let alone overstaying!

[kandahar]

Brahms, in answer to your first question:

Stolen for a website: http://pecuniarities.com/language-lesson-f...-a-fine-word/85

The word finance first appeared in Middle French around the year 1400, and it simply meant “ending, settlement of a debt.” This usage was derived from the Middle English finis, “a payment in settlement, fine or tax,” which in turn came from the Latin finis, meaning “end,” the origin of the present word “fine.”

If we travel back to c. 1200-1300, however, we see that that the word “fine” also had positive definitions as it still does today. In Latin, French and English, it meant things like “perfected, of highest quality,” “acme, peak, height,” “the highest good,” and “delicate, intricately skillful.”

Hence, the use of the word “fine” as relates to monetary matters, was to “make fine,” “make one’s peace,” or “settle a matter,” which is a much more positive way of looking at one’s financial affairs.

It wasn’t until 1527 that the word fine began taking on the modern and more negative definition of “sum of money imposed as penalty for some offense,” and 1559 when assigned the verb meaning “to punish by a fine.”

So, for those of us who tend to regard our financial matters as drudgery or a form of punishment, perhaps it would behoove us all to adopt the view of our predecessors and look at it as “making [things] fine.” So, go and make peace with yourself (or your bank account, or creditors, if applicable.)

[kandahar]

The Mae Sai Immigration folks are not callous. They are a pretty good bunch and we are lucky to have them close by. They do not have the leeway to make judgements about whether someone made that mistake honestly or otherwise. If they did, they would spend a whole lot of time trying to determine just how many others are trying to get over or just made the mistake. Give some people an inch and they will take a mile. You know that. They know that. The fellow you speak of learned the hard way what others learned the easy way. Such is life. Lesson learned, move on. Don't beat up the folks that are doing a fine job at Mae Sai.

Edited May 23, 2010 by kandahar

[beano2274]

IsaanAndy - we realise that we need to do 90 day reporting, however no-one actually informs you, most of us find out from colleagues or from ThaiVisa, I for one found out by reading it here. This is were the OP's friend has come a cropper.

Actually anyone who stays longer than 90 days must report, does not matter if Non Immigrant or Tourist Visa or whatever.

Well, to be honest, if an immigration office in Thailand gives you a 1 year extension, they will tell you to do the 90 day report.

The problem seems to come from people being issued a visa which entitles them to 365 days straight away when entering Thailand.

It is them where nobody informs them of the 90 day reporting rule.

Not always, I have had an extension given, but not told about the 90 day reporting, actually I had taken the slip out of the Passport and kept it seperate, the Officer did not inform me of anything.

It seems to be a case of good Officers who inform you and others who do not. A detailed information pack to people applying for Extensions would be a welcome idea from Immigration, but cost would be a major problem.

I agree with Consulates and Embassies, they never tell anyone, this is where Training is required or again information packs given to applicants.

[beano2274]

And since the introduction of using the local Immigration Office, I must report no problems and complete satisfaction with the NONTHABURI office and officers.

[whatchamacallit]

Tell him to be glad the punishment in Thailand is so lenient. In the US he would have been deported and banned for three years.

I hope this is a joke - There are millions of illegals currently residing in the good old USA who are quite visible and no one is deporting them.

[mahtin]

On receiving my extension for retirement at Nonthaburi a "NOTICE" was stapled in my passport re 90 day reporting.

An excerpt: "Any Alien who fails to comply with will be punished with a fine not exceeding 5,000 baht and with an additional fine not exceeding 200 baht for each day which passes until the law is complied with..."

From Immigration Act B.E. 2522 section 76.

Seems your man got let off the 5,000.

No mention of a 20,000 maximum either, or perhaps that was omitted from their quote.

Another case of your mileage may vary?

[brahmburgers]

this guy got off easy. The law states that 500 baht per day is the fine for overstays, not 200 as reported by you. Immigration does have a kind heart unless you're already a prejudiced foreigner. I was also caught in this circumstance once and was 20 days over the time allotted. The immigration official informed me of my obligations under the renewal of visa requirements in Thailand, then smiled and stamped my book. No fine and no hassles. Attitude is very important and your attitude is what makes the difference between good relationships and poor ones. I suspect this is the case in your instance?

I don't know what exactly happened on a person to person level as I wasn't there. However, if you were let off easy, that was a subjective call by the bureaucrat. I've had that happen to me in the States, when there was forgiveness given for a monetary obligation which was obviously not avoided (by me), but instead just a dumb oversight.

Essentially what you're saying is the old man deserves to pay the full fine (for not being aware of the reporting protocol) because he was not as suave, charming, and not as well-attired as you.

Then you get to the question: should there be subjective interpretations of laws, or should laws be administered fairly to all, without taking in to consideration a person's smile, or whether he shaved that morning, or has bad breath, or buttoned the 2nd to top button of his shirt, or whether he's wearing gold or has a high class looking Thai girlfriend alongside ....or........ ad infinitum. Fact remains, Thai bureaucrats are often subjective in how they dole out decisions. The receiver likes it if he gets a break. The receiver feels bad if he feels he got a bad deal.