When มา Is Used At The End Of A Sentence

[aitch]

Hello,

I just bought 'Thai Reference Grammer, The Structure of Spoken Thai' (Higbie and Thinsan)

As an example, Page 27 - ผมซื้อหนังสือที่คุณชอบมา (I bought the book that you liked)

มา (ma) in the index on Page 410

to come; as a secondary verb

a long time ago

after, past phrases with ma

always, phrases with ma

buy for (a price)

coming up next (taw ma - ต่อมา)

have always

have experienced before

how long ago ?

how long have you . . . ?

many years ago

not long ago

past phrases with phan ma (ผ่านมา)

with "don't"

with past time

Can I rule out any of the items in the index simply because มา is used at the end of a sentence ?

[rgs2001uk]

The following link may help the OP,

http://www.lyndonhill.com/FunThai/L09A1.html

I am the first to admit I dont read enough Thai, I tend to speak as I hear it.

Examples would be,

ซื้ออะไรมา, I meet a friend in the soi who is coming home after shopping.

ไปเที่ยวมา, I meet a friend who is returning home.

The other problem we face is the difference between spoken and written Thai.

Plus the different versions of spoken Thai.

กินข้าวยัง

ทานอาหารแล้วหรือยัง

The same question, illustrating the differing layers of spoken Thai.

[321niti123]

The following link may help the OP,

http://www.lyndonhill.com/FunThai/L09A1.html

I am the first to admit I dont read enough Thai, I tend to speak as I hear it.

Examples would be,

ซื้ออะไรมา, I meet a friend in the soi who is coming home after shopping.

ไปเที่ยวมา, I meet a friend who is returning home.

The other problem we face is the difference between spoken and written Thai.

Plus the different versions of spoken Thai.

กินข้าวยัง

ทานอาหารแล้วหรือยัง

The same question, illustrating the differing layers of spoken Thai.

the reason for the phrase กินข้าวยัง is the same reason english has slang, it is because the language is shortened by the need for speed-

ทานอาหารแล้วหรือยัง is just the full version

[321niti123]

Ma can be used as come, or coming from, or from

[DavidHouston]

The following is from "A Reference Grammar of Thai," Shoichi Iwasaki and Preeya Ingkaphirom, Cambridge University Press, 2005. In Chapter 12, para. 12.3, the authors deal, inter alia, with the word มา used as a grammar marker:

"12.3 Perfect/anterior aspect

"Perfect/anterior aspect concerns the 'relevance' of a particular situation with respect to the current situation (e.g. 'I have just finished reading the news'). 'Perfect' is the traditional name for this aspect, but also 'anterior' is sometimes used; 'perfect/anterior' is used in this book. There are two general markers of perfect/anterior, แล้ว and มา, and five other more specific markers.

* * * * *

"(12) มา (<'to come'): Because the source of this auxiliary is the verb 'to come,' the sentence involving this auxiliary has a very strong sense of direction. That is, when perfect/anterior มา appears with activity verbs, the interpretation of 'doing something somewhere else and coming back here' is strong.

ไปไหนมาครับ

[examples]

"The expression with มา in some cases emphasized the fact that a situation has been continuing up to the reference time. This is particularly true when มา occurs with a stative verb. In this case, the expression of the duration such as นาน, 'for a long time' is often attached.

เขาอยู่เมืองไทยมานาน

[examples]

"The two perfect/anterior auxiliaries, มา and แล้ว, may appear together in this order in one sentence. . . . "

[farangnahrak]

I've only seen it used to express past events . . .

This example will probably help you understand the word better:

ผมชื้อขนมมาให้พี่

(literal translation: I bought candy to give to you)

The speaker says he just did something, and is now directing it to someone else.

DavidHoustons description fits my understanding of the word.

[aitch]

Thank You for the help on this one. I am fairly comfortable with most aspects of time but for some reason when i come across the word มา i tend to sieze up a bit. For example, when I read ผมซื้อหนังสือที่คุณชอบมา (I bought the book that you liked), some of the questions I will be asking myself include:

ผมซื้อหนังสือที่คุณชอบมาแล้ว

why is แล้ว not added at the end ?

would adding แล้ว change the meaning of the sentence ?

in a way, as 321niti123 stated, are we just shortening up the sentence and แล้ว is implied ?

มา is required because the object หนังสือ (book) is coming toward the subject ผม (I) ?

farangnahrak's example ผมชื้อขนมมาให้พี่ (I bought candy to give to you), past tense and direction, I think this is what is adding to my confusion. Thank you for throwing it into the mix. I think this may end up clarifyng the trouble that I am having with the word มา.

If I change the sentence to 'I sold the book that you like'

มา or ไป ?

ผมขายหนังสือที่คุณชอบมา or maybe ผมขายหนังสือที่คุณชอบไป ?

ไป -> following the direction logic wouldn't หนังสือ the object 'book' now be going away from ผม the subject 'I' ?

When I read DavidHouston's explanation, specifically when i hit the words 'relevance' and 'markers', I feel like I am getting closer. I may end up buying 'A Reference Grammer of Thai' (Iwasaki and Ingkaphirom). I have been reading the grammer book recommendations recently and decided to go with 'Thai Reference Grammer, The Structure of Spoken Thai'(Higbie and Thinsan). I really like this book but now I am thinking that it wouldn't hurt to own both.

'relevance', that's a 'things that make you say hmm' word right there. New angle, Thank you for that.

There are two general markers of perfect/anterior, แล้ว and มา, and five other more specific markers.

Is ไป one of the more specific markers ? ผมขายหนังสือที่คุณชอบไป ?

If not, มา would apply ? ผมขายหนังสือที่คุณชอบมา ?

rgs2001uk's link, Right there at the top 'In general the Thai language does not always distinguish very clearly between the various forms of Past and Perfect Tenses' leads me to believe that i need to take all this into account and just keep plowing thru. It is common for learners to have trouble with the word มา and is just part of the process of learing Thai ? It's as though มา is one of the first words you learn, pretty concrete 'come', and then you have to relearn it.

[DavidHouston]

The other five are ไป (page 163), เสีย (page 164), ไว้ (page 165), เพิ่ง (page 165), เคย (page 166)

[bhoydy]

Do these sentences have the same meaning?

ผมซื้อหนังสือมาที่คุณชอบ

ผมซื้อหนังสือที่คุณชอบมา

and are they both correct?

I would normally speak the first way and would like to know if i'm saying it wrong.

[Peppy]

Do these sentences have the same meaning?

ผมซื้อหนังสือมาที่คุณชอบ

ผมซื้อหนังสือที่คุณชอบมา

and are they both correct?

I'm afraid I can't give you a definitive answer on this, but it's generally been my experience that when มา is used to indicate 'tense' or 'direction' in a sentence, it usually goes at the end, as indicated in the thread title. For your first sentence, I would break it in two, and say "ผมซื้อหนังสือมา เป็นเล่มที่คุณชอบนะ" "I bought a book--it's the one you like." The second sentence seems ok to me.

(After a few minutes of thought) Looking at the first sentence again, it's occurred to me that maybe the reason มา looks funny being in the middle like that is that the noun-phrase หนังสือที่คุนชอบ "the book you like" (noun หนังสือ "the book" + adjective phrase* ที่คุณชอบ "that you like") isn't meant to be broken up by anything, so มา has to come after it.

*actually a "restrictive relative clause" which defines the noun ("the book") as being distinct from other nouns of the same type--it's not just any book, it's the one "that you like".

[farangnahrak]

I asked a Thai. I still don't quite understand it 100%, but this below information should help us out . . .

These two sentences have the exact same meaning and both are correct:

ผมซื้อหนังสือมาที่คุณชอบ

ผมซื้อหนังสือที่คุณชอบมา

This sentence is correct:

ผมชื้อขนมมาให้พี่

But this sentence is grammatically wrong:

ผมชื้อขนมให้พี่มา

This sentence is something that happened in the past:

ผมทำแบบนี้มาแล้ว

And this is something that hasn't yet happened but will:

ผมทำแบบนี้มา

And just a fun example of all the ways มา can be used:

ผมมาที่นี่ตั้งแต่มานานแล้ว

I'm thinking มา is as complex as the word ให้ . . .

[Peppy]

I asked a Thai. I still don't quite understand it 100%, but this below information should help us out . . .

These two sentences have the exact same meaning and both are correct:

ผมซื้อหนังสือมาที่คุณชอบ

ผมซื้อหนังสือที่คุณชอบมา

This sentence is correct:

ผมชื้อขนมมาให้พี่

But this sentence is grammatically wrong:

ผมชื้อขนมให้พี่มา

This sentence is something that happened in the past:

ผมทำแบบนี้มาแล้ว

And this is something that hasn't yet happened but will:

ผมทำแบบนี้มา

And just a fun example of all the ways มา can be used:

ผมมาที่นี่ตั้งแต่มานานแล้ว

I'm thinking มา is as complex as the word ให้ . . .

Thanks for the input, Mr. Nahrak. It indeed looks like this is a tricky one to pin down with hard and fast rules.

[aitch]

And this is something that hasn't yet happened but will:

ผมทำแบบนี้มา

Thank You for the examples farangnahrak

This makes me want to add a จะ (ทำ) or a ต่อ (มา) in here for some reason

ผมจะทำแบบนี้มา

ผมทำแบบนี้ต่อมา

(e.g. 'I have just finished reading the news')

I wanted to give a stab at this one

ผมเพิ่งอ่านข่าวคราวเสร็จแล้ว ?

If this is correct, maybe there is something that can be taken away in the difference between how เสร็จ (แล้ว) and มา (แล้ว) is used ?

[bhoydy]

And this is something that hasn't yet happened but will:

ผมทำแบบนี้มา

This seems to me that it has happened already. Am i missing something? Are you saying that if i say ผมทำแบบนี้มา it hasn't happened yet. If i say ผมไปทำแบบนี้มา it has already happened. I thought that มา used in this contect was always talking about coming from something in the past. Lexitron says that it's coming from the past or the focal time.

[farangnahrak]

And this is something that hasn't yet happened but will:

ผมทำแบบนี้มา

This seems to me that it has happened already. Am i missing something? Are you saying that if i say ผมทำแบบนี้มา it hasn't happened yet. If i say ผมไปทำแบบนี้มา it has already happened. I thought that มา used in this contect was always talking about coming from something in the past. Lexitron says that it's coming from the past or the focal time.

Yea, it sounded funny to me too so I had double checked when I asked. There is a possibility that my Thai friend was wrong . . .

[bhoydy]

And this is something that hasn't yet happened but will:

ผมทำแบบนี้มา

This seems to me that it has happened already. Am i missing something? Are you saying that if i say ผมทำแบบนี้มา it hasn't happened yet. If i say ผมไปทำแบบนี้มา it has already happened. I thought that มา used in this contect was always talking about coming from something in the past. Lexitron says that it's coming from the past or the focal time.

Yea, it sounded funny to me too so I had double checked when I asked. There is a possibility that my Thai friend was wrong . . .

Looks like you overloaded your friend with questions.

Anyway, good information extracted. Thanks.

[meadish_sweetball]

Most people are not very good at explaining to foreigners how their native language works, simply because the questions foreigners will ask are not seldom about things in the language the native speakers have never had a reason to examine themselves - they've just mimicked their environment and not learned these things consciously. I think that may have been such a case.

[farangnahrak]

Most people are not very good at explaining to foreigners how their native language works, simply because the questions foreigners will ask are not seldom about things in the language the native speakers have never had a reason to examine themselves - they've just mimicked their environment and not learned these things consciously. I think that may have been such a case.

You have no idea how many arguments I've started in the temple (where I often hang out at) when two Thais disagree about their language

[meadish_sweetball]

I think I can imagine. Not very nice to instigate arguments in the temple though, isn't that supposed to be a sanctuary for finding inner peace?

To be fair, there are many aspects of Swedish I would not be able to explain in a useful way to a second language learner.

[farangnahrak]

I think I can imagine. Not very nice to instigate arguments in the temple though, isn't that supposed to be a sanctuary for finding inner peace?

Usually at least one of them is a monk

oops . . .

[Peppy]

I asked a Thai. I still don't quite understand it 100%, but this below information should help us out . . .

These two sentences have the exact same meaning and both are correct:

ผมซื้อหนังสือมาที่คุณชอบ

ผมซื้อหนังสือที่คุณชอบมา

Just for the record, I conferred with Mrs. Peppy (Bangkok born and bred) on this, and her immediate reaction (with no input from me, I just asked her to look at the sentences and tell me if they were correct or not) was that the first sentence "looks odd" and is "not right", just as I suggested in post #10. Her reasoning was the same as mine, that the มา breaks up the phrase หนังสือที่คุณชอบ. The second sentence is perfectly fine by her reckoning.

As for "ผมทำแบบนี้มา", I'm having trouble understanding how this can refer to future events. My interpretation of the sentence is "This is how I did it" or "This is what I've done", but I'd be glad to hear alternatives.

[bhoydy]

Just for the record, I conferred with Mrs. Peppy (Bangkok born and bred) on this, and her immediate reaction (with no input from me, I just asked her to look at the sentences and tell me if they were correct or not) was that the first sentence "looks odd" and is "not right", just as I suggested in post #10. Her reasoning was the same as mine, that the มา breaks up the phrase หนังสือที่คุณชอบ. The second sentence is perfectly fine by her reckoning.

Could that be because it does look funny? In written Thai it is not the correct way, but if i were to walk up to you while you're in the tea shop at the end of the soi and say ผมซื้อหนังซื้อมา then produce it to you while continuing ที่คุณชอบ then i think it works. I know i'm clutching at straws.....mmm clutching at straws anyone got an idiom similar to this?

[mangkorn]

The other five are ไป (page 163), เสีย (page 164), ไว้ (page 165), เพิ่ง (page 165), เคย (page 166)

ไว้ is a particularly important marker, that is possibly the least understood or oft-neglected by foreign speakers. I don't know if it is even taught in schools, but it is vital to proper speaking and comprehension of Thai.

[meadish_sweetball]

Basically I think most schools will try to give a general, vague definition such as 'for later use' and then proceed to give a few idiomatic examples (some of which, naturally, are not covered by that definition), and then say 'this is something you will learn by listening'.

Perhaps comparable to the difficulty many learners of Spanish encounter regarding 'ser' and 'estar', I don't think it is possible to get it right in every case just from learning a couple of rules.

[SoftWater]

And just a fun example of all the ways มา can be used:

ผมมาที่นี่ตั้งแต่มานานแล้ว

Not sure about your Thai native speaker, shouldn't that last มา come after นาน...

[anchan42]

I dare not invent my own rule but I can tell you which one sound right and which one sound strange.

ผมซื้อหนังสือมาที่คุณชอบ strange, you can say ผมซื้อหนังสือมา เล่มที่คุณชอบ or better yet ผมซื้อหนังสือมา เป็นเล่มที่คุณชอบ

ผมซื้อหนังสือที่คุณชอบมา ok

ผมทำแบบนี้มาแล้ว I have done this before.

ผมทำแบบนี้มา This is what I have been doing.

ผมมาที่นี่ตั้งแต่มานานแล้ว strange, this sounds better. ผมมาที่นี่ตั้งแต่นานมาแล้ว

[farangnahrak]

I dare not invent my own rule but I can tell you which one sound right and which one sound strange.

ผมซื้อหนังสือมาที่คุณชอบ strange, you can say ผมซื้อหนังสือมา เล่มที่คุณชอบ or better yet ผมซื้อหนังสือมา เป็นเล่มที่คุณชอบ

ผมซื้อหนังสือที่คุณชอบมา ok

ผมทำแบบนี้มาแล้ว I have done this before.

ผมทำแบบนี้มา This is what I have been doing.

ผมมาที่นี่ตั้งแต่มานานแล้ว strange, this sounds better. ผมมาที่นี่ตั้งแต่นานมาแล้ว

Define strange.

ie grammatically incorrect, or correct but no one says it like that for some 'strange' reason?

[Peppy]

I think the general "rule" here regarding relative clauses like ที่คุณชอบ is that they have to be attached to a noun (or a noun classifier), so หนังสือที่คุณชอบ is ok, as is เล่มที่คุณชอบ, but ผมซื้อหนังสือมาที่คุณชอบ isn't, because ที่คุณชอบ is just kind of floating out there after มา, and it isn't clear what it refers to. Grammatically speaking, I don't think it's correct.

[anchan42]

ie grammatically incorrect, or correct but no one says it like that for some 'strange' reason?

I don't really know. My explicit knowledge of Thai grammar is minimum but they sound really off.

Not very much help, is it?

[mangkorn]

I don't really know. My explicit knowledge of Thai grammar is minimum but they sound really off.

Not very much help, is it?

It is very helpful, khun anchan. Being able to speak and write idiomatically is the ultimate goal of studying another language.