Is 'big Brother' Listening And Reading?

[jaideeguy]

Lately, I've been getting a paranoid feeling when discussing current political events with friends abroad on skype and even in emails. Are 'they' listening?? reading?? do they have the technology to spy [and know how to do it]??

just wondering.....

[Somtamnication]

Google the answer.

[IMA_FARANG]

The honest truth is...probably not.

Now there will be others who post who claim I don't know what I'm talking about or I'm just being too complacent.

But that sheer fact is that the logistics involved is against you being monitored. There are just too many messages, emails, Blogs, Skype calls, etc. to be monitored without a massive effort. The people who would do the monitoring simply don't have the time and manpower (well womanpower too, I should add).

The honest truth is that those who feel they need to do the monitoring for "national security reasons" must be selective in picking those who they monitor....because there is just too much out there that unless they are selective in their monitoring they are swamped in all the unwanted trash they must sort through to find the needle in a haystack they are looking for.

Don't believe all that stuff about automated computer programs to pick out important information. Computer monitoring programs are simply not good enough to pick out the context in a conversation. Just suppose you are talking about your favorite football team, and you say,"They really bombed last night." Of course, you are referring to their losing the game. A computer is too stupid to know that. Any monitoring software would probably assume you were talking about a real explosive type bomb. Or you might say,"I made a real killing on that deal", referring to a business deal. No software is capable yet of picking out your meaning in the context of your conversation, it takes a human being to do that...and as I said before the logistics involved for the manpower requirements are just too much.

So, unless you have been put on a list sometime, or did something "they" didn't like, you are very very unlikely to be monitored. No matter what the conspirouscy theories people will tell you.

Edited May 29, 2010 by IMA_FARANG

[kandahar]

Yeah, you're worrying needlessly. If they do employ the technology and skills to accomplish this task here, they won't be spending their time watching you. They have real criminals and activists to be concerned with. And I doubt that they are even watching the bad guys. If they were, they would be arresting people BEFORE major landmarks burned, not after. As far as I can tell, you have to actually make it onto YouTube with a video of yourself loudly announcing your criminal plans before anyone starts to suspect that you are up to something. Even then, it takes another week or two for them to act on the info.

Rest easy, man.

[jaideeguy]

What prompted my OP was last week I made a couple of attempted [failed] calls to a friend in the US and he answered the phone only to hear the Thai national anthem.....I heard nothing. I don't have anything to hide except maybe a few political opinions that I would like to keep private but would never act on....especially here in LOS [land of slaves].

[mjnaus]

You might want to keep in mind that, even IF any government or organization is monitoring your communication, it's still relatively easy to make it very difficult if not impossible for anybody to track your communication.

First of all, Skype uses a very strong encryption protocol named AES. Without the required keys to the encryption (stored on your comp only and unknown to Skype) it's virtually impossible to decrypt this encryption.

As for email and regular web browsing, as long as communication takes place over unsecured connections, basically your data can be read by anyone who might be listening (they do need minimal technical knowledge of course). For regular browsing, there are many ways to decrypt your traffic (look into TOR or secure SH tunnels combined with a proxy server).

Google around and you'll find plenty of ways to secure your communication (do keep in mind that using certain encryption methods are illegal in Thailand as per the new communication laws from three years back).

[ScouseTommy]

I can say skype is fairly secure, the servers are in countries in the balkans and other places. Further to this the logistics involved in monitoring the average expat on the off chance they could gain intel, are improbable. I doubt they are actively listening. However saying that anyone and anything can be monitored. The NSA in the states and GCHQ in the UK actively monitor traffic but its usually done only if a particular code word pops up in conversation i.e. 'Osama'. This is then filtered for content. Once its deemed of no Intel value its scrapped. i wouldnt go to far into conspiracy theories on this its just not worth a goverments time, energy or MONEY to be tracking the average man in the street. IMO

[mjnaus]

The NSA in the states and GCHQ in the UK actively monitor traffic but its usually done only if a particular code word pops up in conversation i.e. 'Osama'. This is then filtered for content.

Right.... And without filtering all communication data constantly, how would "they" know if a "particular code word" pops up?

[mjnaus]

I can say skype is fairly secure, the servers are in countries in the balkans and other places. Further to this the logistics involved in monitoring the average expat on the off chance they could gain intel, are improbable. I doubt they are actively listening. However saying that anyone and anything can be monitored. The NSA in the states and GCHQ in the UK actively monitor traffic but its usually done only if a particular code word pops up in conversation i.e. 'Osama'. This is then filtered for content. Once its deemed of no Intel value its scrapped. i wouldnt go to far into conspiracy theories on this its just not worth a goverments time, energy or MONEY to be tracking the average man in the street. IMO

Skype is based on Peer-to-Peer technology; no servers are used for Skype connections (except for retrieving some routing info perhaps). So where ever Skype's servers are located has nothing to do with it's security.

[SamuiHomemadeFood]

They most certainy are. A very good friend of mine was a fibre optic engineer and did a lot of work for the military. As he had a very good security clearence he also did work for the Ameruicans as well. the NSA operate a very large listening post in the UK. Menwith hill. Do a Google search. They record every telephone call, both mobile, satalite and landline, fax, email and internet activity. As already mentioned they havethe ability to screen these for certain words and they can even search for a particular voice pattern, That is how they eventually captured or rather killed Pablo Escobar.

So yes be worried. As they say " Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't all out to get you ! "

Have a look here

http://www.euronet.nl/~rembert/echelon/mwh.htm

Edited May 29, 2010 by SamuiHomemadeFood

[ScouseTommy]

I know a little bit about how the security services operate especially in the UK, but am NOT an expert. I dont know how the filters work or how these super computers pick up and filter individual words, so i cant help there. All of this is verifiable through a google search though! As for the servers, sorry your right, i meant its hard to track you due to routing information and skype security, which is very good. In relation to security and the servers, what good would it do to record a conversation if you cant track and identify who is sending the communication???

[toptuan]

I can say skype is fairly secure, the servers are in countries in the balkans and other places. Further to this the logistics involved in monitoring the average expat on the off chance they could gain intel, are improbable. I doubt they are actively listening. However saying that anyone and anything can be monitored. The NSA in the states and GCHQ in the UK actively monitor traffic but its usually done only if a particular code word pops up in conversation i.e. 'Osama'. This is then filtered for content. Once its deemed of no Intel value its scrapped. i wouldnt go to far into conspiracy theories on this its just not worth a goverments time, energy or MONEY to be tracking the average man in the street. IMO

I can't believe your wrote that online!

[higgy88]

What prompted my OP was last week I made a couple of attempted [failed] calls to a friend in the US and he answered the phone only to hear the Thai national anthem.....I heard nothing. I don't have anything to hide except maybe a few political opinions that I would like to keep private but would never act on....especially here in LOS [land of slaves].

jaideeguy, I find this very interesting. Were you making a skype to skype call using your computer to call your friend's computer, or were you using your computer to call his home/mobile phone, or were you (or your friend) using a skype phone connected to your router without going through a computer? And if you used skype out to call a standard phone, were you charged the connection fee?

[markg]

They most certainy are. A very good friend of mine was a fibre optic engineer and did a lot of work for the military. As he had a very good security clearence he also did work for the Ameruicans as well. the NSA operate a very large listening post in the UK. Menwith hill. Do a Google search. They record every telephone call, both mobile, satalite and landline, fax, email and internet activity. As already mentioned they havethe ability to screen these for certain words and they can even search for a particular voice pattern, That is how they eventually captured or rather killed Pablo Escobar.

So yes be worried. As they say " Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't all out to get you ! "

Have a look here

http://www.euronet.nl/~rembert/echelon/mwh.htm

Sorry mate, i just find this unbelievable. You are actually saying EVERY single phone call is being recorded. It would be logistically impossible to record the whole of the UK's phone calls in a 24 hour period. There are just too many.

And then who or what listens to them all? It would take a year to listen to one days worth of calls !

I just find it unlikely and logistically impossible.

Certain calls are tapped and then recorded - for sure. Political firebrands, members of the IRA, the BNP for sure. But ALL of Joe Public - i dont think so.

I know for a fact working in the telecoms industry that the caller details are obviously stored - for billing, and all SMS messages are recoverable, but the calls are not routinely recorded. It would take terrabytes of storage every hour. Where is this storage facility? For now surely it must be the size of Belguim by now.

I also know that Joe Public has certain privilege rights or levels which in times of war can be turned off or restricted, freeing up the mobile phone network for govt and military.

[Samuian]

They most certainy are. A very good friend of mine was a fibre optic engineer and did a lot of work for the military. As he had a very good security clearence he also did work for the Ameruicans as well. the NSA operate a very large listening post in the UK. Menwith hill. Do a Google search. They record every telephone call, both mobile, satalite and landline, fax, email and internet activity. As already mentioned they havethe ability to screen these for certain words and they can even search for a particular voice pattern, That is how they eventually captured or rather killed Pablo Escobar.

So yes be worried. As they say " Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't all out to get you ! "

Have a look here

http://www.euronet.nl/~rembert/echelon/mwh.htm

Yes and in Australia and in the USofA and, and 40.000 employees, but on he "other side" this workforce, despite typical office red tape, face an onslaught of some incredible amount of data packages like: news stream can take up to 200 gigabytes per day if binary groups are included and this concerns ONLY Usenet-News data flow!

There are some 17.000.000.000. to 20 billion web pages alone, yet the traffic, then secure website traffic, encoded data, encryptet data!

The advantage of hunting down figures like Escobar is that they are a "hard target", easy to pinpoint, voice recognition, location, GPS.... undercover people, those who would do anything for money ...

"controlling the internet.... is a fairytale 0- that has gone way beyond that, way, way beyond!

And those who believe it, they should consult at least a shrink or look otherwise for help, best leave hands off the keyboard!

The one YOU use might have secretly installed fingerprint recognition and web cam is always ON, it's all connected to satellite targeting and cruise missile/drone coordination one wrong step or word... history!

@jaidee: relax, stay away from... well you know and take a couple of days OFF - completely OFF - everything and relax!

But still, watch what you say to whom... and where----nay it's lain silly - unless you use a marker to sign certain pic, depicting people who are strictly protected and stuff like this... til then RELAX!

Edited May 29, 2010 by Samuian

[jaideeguy]

What prompted my OP was last week I made a couple of attempted [failed] calls to a friend in the US and he answered the phone only to hear the Thai national anthem.....I heard nothing. I don't have anything to hide except maybe a few political opinions that I would like to keep private but would never act on....especially here in LOS [land of slaves].

jaideeguy, I find this very interesting. Were you making a skype to skype call using your computer to call your friend's computer, or were you using your computer to call his home/mobile phone, or were you (or your friend) using a skype phone connected to your router without going through a computer? And if you used skype out to call a standard phone, were you charged the connection fee?

In fact, I was using a telephony[?] devise called 'Magicjack' that plugs into a usb port and out to a regular phone via a phone jack on the other end. Great cheap simple technology that alows me to call unlimited to the US thru my PC. Also gives me an area code and number in the US, so seems maybe at least or maybe more secure than Skype.

I am RELAXING after reading all your reassuring posts that confirm my feelings that there is just too much traffic to monitor.....especially here with language differences.

[wester]

There is 1 access point that connects Thailand to the outside world. This all data entering and exiting can be monitored. Huge chunks of data - including e-mail, audio (skype), photos, movies etc... - can be archived and searched. Filters can be set up to flag certain things, but this might slow traffic, so most data is probably just copied and searched.

Around the kingdom, sniffers and such can be set up at ISPs - and I am sure that ISPs cooperate 100% with the police/military. I'd be shocked if the situation is otherwise.

Bots can be programmed to read and collect data from message boards and web forums.

All data will contain your IP addess. The police have a physical list of IP locations so if you get crazy online, it

will be easy to find, trace and bust you.

Solutions:

Use a Proxy server - I saw an article where the government was warning about the great danger of proxies - so you know this one is effective.

use Basic Encryption and creative passwords - this will protect you most of the time.

This includes Hushmail and other programs. But brute force crackers can be unleashed on you so be careful.

IP masking - requires programming skills for creating your own TCP/IP packets. Not easy.

or Zip your files and put a strong password on it. But brute force crackers can be unleashed on you so be careful.

If you and your partners know some extremely esoteric foreign language like Cornish or Gullah Sea Islands Creole, then use it.

And keep in mind, this is Thailand. This is not Langley, Virginia, USA.

[saintofsilence]

Big Brother is also watching Thai Visa Forum , I'm not sure how he filters out the truth but there is a hel_l of a lot of B S on here

Edited May 29, 2010 by saintofsilence

[higgy88]

Thanks for the clarification. I hadn't even thought of magic jack. I've heard of it, but not sure exactly how it works.

I do think that some of the Thai computer technicians here can be technologically challenged at times, so my first reaction to your post was that they may have been trying out some kind of (monitoring?) software that didn't work the way they thought.

I would also not relax too much, and I always try to watch what I say anytime. I know people back in the 60s and 70s who were busted on drug charges based on wiretapped phone conversations, so this ain't nothing new.

[kandahar]

They most certainy are. A very good friend of mine was a fibre optic engineer and did a lot of work for the military. As he had a very good security clearence he also did work for the Ameruicans as well. the NSA operate a very large listening post in the UK. Menwith hill. Do a Google search. They record every telephone call, both mobile, satalite and landline, fax, email and internet activity. As already mentioned they havethe ability to screen these for certain words and they can even search for a particular voice pattern, That is how they eventually captured or rather killed Pablo Escobar.

So yes be worried. As they say " Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't all out to get you ! "

Have a look here

http://www.euronet.nl/~rembert/echelon/mwh.htm

They most certainly are not. If they were, they wouldn't be wasting time getting court orders to allow them to review phone logs of known or suspected criminals, now would they?

Do they monitor suspects that they have a good reason to monitor? Of course. Are we all suspects? Of course not.

It is funny how children are afraid of the bogey man under their beds and when they grow up, they just imagine the same bogey man in different places. BTW, there is no Santa Claus, either.

[h90]

You might want to keep in mind that, even IF any government or organization is monitoring your communication, it's still relatively easy to make it very difficult if not impossible for anybody to track your communication.

First of all, Skype uses a very strong encryption protocol named AES. Without the required keys to the encryption (stored on your comp only and unknown to Skype) it's virtually impossible to decrypt this encryption.

As for email and regular web browsing, as long as communication takes place over unsecured connections, basically your data can be read by anyone who might be listening (they do need minimal technical knowledge of course). For regular browsing, there are many ways to decrypt your traffic (look into TOR or secure SH tunnels combined with a proxy server).

Google around and you'll find plenty of ways to secure your communication (do keep in mind that using certain encryption methods are illegal in Thailand as per the new communication laws from three years back).

In Austria they got one guy who posted on a newspaper that people should shoot the turkish people.

He used TOR.

[SamuiHomemadeFood]

They most certainy are. A very good friend of mine was a fibre optic engineer and did a lot of work for the military. As he had a very good security clearence he also did work for the Ameruicans as well. the NSA operate a very large listening post in the UK. Menwith hill. Do a Google search. They record every telephone call, both mobile, satalite and landline, fax, email and internet activity. As already mentioned they havethe ability to screen these for certain words and they can even search for a particular voice pattern, That is how they eventually captured or rather killed Pablo Escobar.

So yes be worried. As they say " Just because you are paranoid doesn't mean that they aren't all out to get you ! "

Have a look here

http://www.euronet.nl/~rembert/echelon/mwh.htm

Sorry mate, i just find this unbelievable. You are actually saying EVERY single phone call is being recorded. It would be logistically impossible to record the whole of the UK's phone calls in a 24 hour period. There are just too many.

And then who or what listens to them all? It would take a year to listen to one days worth of calls !

I just find it unlikely and logistically impossible.

Certain calls are tapped and then recorded - for sure. Political firebrands, members of the IRA, the BNP for sure. But ALL of Joe Public - i dont think so.

I know for a fact working in the telecoms industry that the caller details are obviously stored - for billing, and all SMS messages are recoverable, but the calls are not routinely recorded. It would take terrabytes of storage every hour. Where is this storage facility? For now surely it must be the size of Belguim by now.

I also know that Joe Public has certain privilege rights or levels which in times of war can be turned off or restricted, freeing up the mobile phone network for govt and military.

Obviously could not be bothered to actually read the link then ? Just 1 fibre cable can handle every phone call in the world. Just because you can now only get a 2-3 terrabyte HDD believe me the military have things you can only dream of. The mobile phone companies could, and wanted to make their calls encrypted so they could not be listened in on but the Governments around the world would not allow them to as they need the ability to listen.

[siamect]

This is an interesting topic really.

Almost everybody got a point in what they are writing and the "counter attacks" also usually have a point.

My own way of thinking in this is:

If you put it on a computer, consider it as open for the public (including big brother). It is as simple as that.

You can encrypt every way you know and get a bullet proof message transferred, but it doesn't matter if you have a keyboard monitor someone put on you computer. If fact for security to work, you either have to trust all the people who has been involved in the creation of all software you have installed or the all the programs has to be open for the public to review.

The truth, for most of us, is that we don't have a single clue what the programs in our computers are doing so we have to trust other people who does. Can we?

To say that Skype is secure is a wild, and most likely incorrect, guess based on no substance, what so ever. Skype is a proprietary software with no possible way to get a public review of the sources. It is using a proprietary protocol that someone claimed is encrypted with AES but you never know. It may be, I don't know. That's not the point. The point is that you don't know what the program is doing except being a functional excellent VOIP software. You still have to trust the programmers of Skype and their internal reviews.

I have been working with software/hardware development professionally on and off since 1984 and only once, in 1990, have my code been subject to any review at all.

In my home country Sweden, a law has been approved that give the government a permanent "permission" to monitor any traffic in and out from the country. The official reason for this is to chase terrorists. I guess all terrorists with IQ 45 and up, are using bulletproof encryption, so chasing terrorists with IQ below 45 is obviously the real reason for this law

I know that Google was threatening to move servers out from Sweden if this law became reality. I don't know if they finally did it but it was lots of noise.

So monitoring is a reality. There is no need to monitor all traffic... you can monitor a subset and statistically you will get a number of hints that you can monitor more closely. the question is really not how this is done but if it is done in a way that would disturb you and your activities. Some of this monitoring may also have perfectly acceptable reasons. The question is if you can adopt to it.

For me it is disturbing for my feeling of personal integrity, but I'm not involved in anything that I think the governments are interested it. For example, I don't have a political opinion because I don't have any knowledge of the subject.

The big risk of economical losses I see for businesses (and private persons) is really not monitoring from the governments. I think the most common threat comes from other businesses or nosy individuals. I have been working as an independent IT consultant a few years ago and I have in a few cases seen really nasty, stupid things being done by other consultants that has been kicked out and in one case, it was a consultant who was not yet out.

Martin

[sarahsbloke]

Who cares ....

Listening to Thai girls witter on about "oh you so hansom, I miss you teerak, send another 20k" would drive anyone barking mad.

(And that's just the phone calls my wife makes to her giks)

[sukhumvitlegend]

a bit of the old 'Thai Fear' I think

[siamect]

You might want to keep in mind that, even IF any government or organization is monitoring your communication, it's still relatively easy to make it very difficult if not impossible for anybody to track your communication.

First of all, Skype uses a very strong encryption protocol named AES. Without the required keys to the encryption (stored on your comp only and unknown to Skype) it's virtually impossible to decrypt this encryption.

As for email and regular web browsing, as long as communication takes place over unsecured connections, basically your data can be read by anyone who might be listening (they do need minimal technical knowledge of course). For regular browsing, there are many ways to decrypt your traffic (look into TOR or secure SH tunnels combined with a proxy server).

Google around and you'll find plenty of ways to secure your communication (do keep in mind that using certain encryption methods are illegal in Thailand as per the new communication laws from three years back).

In Austria they got one guy who posted on a newspaper that people should shoot the turkish people.

He used TOR.

Tor has encryption only between the Tor nodes and not between the user and the first node, and not between the end node and the "whaterver" he/she is communicating with. It is up to the user to encrypt the communication to hide passwords, user names, contents etc. NEVER use unencrypted comunication over the Tor network. Tor is used to hide the route of the communication. Not to hide he contents of it.

Martin

[Crushdepth]

Of course nobody *reads* all your email but it is quite likely that it is scanned or indexed by a machine at some point (maybe several points) and perhaps stored somewhere as well. I doubt that this is of much use to anyone directly, way too much info to deal with and way to many false positives to follow up.

The value is comes when 'big brother' decides that this Jaideeguy, specifically, is a bit of a worry or has info they would like. If you're a target of interest then yeah, having access to all your email could be invaluable and maybe someone will look you up.

It's also worth considering how well governments have behaved themselves in the past - Google about for government reports and old declassified info and you'll find:

* A public report on Echelon released by a European Commission inquiry.

* The US and New Zealand have both admitted to intercepting *all* their international fax traffic at times in the past.

* Memory is a bit rusty on this one, but I think the US has admitted that it used to open international mail to certain destinations in the past.

* These are just examples I've come across in my random wanderings, I'm sure there is bucketloads of this stuff out there.

Apart from Echelon, this is mostly documented in fairly old reports. The point is if they did this sort of thing in the past, they are almost certainly still doing it now. The advent of electronic communications allows for a horrendous scale-up in snooping because it can be done by machine.

[siamect]

this one can be interesting to follow ... Eben Moglen

Example:

[Totsagan]

Lately, I've been getting a paranoid feeling when discussing current political events with friends abroad on skype and even in emails. Are 'they' listening?? reading?? do they have the technology to spy [and know how to do it]??

just wondering.....

Yes...

[siamect]

this one can be interesting to follow ... Eben Moglen

Example:

And this one too

Same guy