Thais Are Lacking In True Faith

[Heng]

Nope there is no denigration of hard work - but the opportunity is karmic - some born in the West some in Sudan

You might feel there is no denigration and intend no denigration, but IMO the implication is there.

Some might credit karma (which cannot be proven either way as mentioned) with what determines whether some are born and raised in Nichada Thani and others in the Klong Thoey slums. IMO that's giving value to something which is effectively null set (since it can't be proven in this equation) which may (and often does IMO) take away value from tangible concepts which are possibly reasons for producing said results. Over time that puts more and more folks in a state of 'ngom ngai' (believing in the intangible and often creatively adding misc. beliefs on top of original beliefs).

A visible example is when people start to believe that God, karma, luck, etc. is what is responsible for a particular lottery drawing result instead of what actually causes said results: random probability (okay, and in some cases rigging). IMO organized religion promotes (okay, maybe not with malice) this line of thinking.

*Choose the 1 in 10 million (on faith) play instead of the 1 in 10,000 play of working your way through school, starting a business, etc. (despite this being the more logical, practical, and of course more difficult path).*

Edited June 5, 2010 by Heng

[Heng]

A true story for you all:

Recently the lady who lived next door to us died and about a week after two trucks turned up accompnied by a monk.

We thought she must have left something to the temple but no as it turned out the monk had been having an affair with this lady for the last 10 years and in that time had bought her a lot of furnature and had arrived after her death to claim it all back.

The ladies brother arrived and argued with the monk who called his friend who is a cop, the cop arrived and sent the brother packing with a couple of photos, of monks incidentaly,

The trucks left for parts unknown loaded with very nice looking furnature.

How could I put my faith in a man like that monk or not? Maybe the monkhood has themselves to blame.

I've seen similar incidences first hand as well (back in Texas we used to see monks from the local Austin and S.A. temples coming to our supermarket to rent videos, often times adult videos, buying Singha, buying lottery tickets, and of course paying for everything in cash... no doubt mostly donations). An awful lot of folks look at the monkhood as just another occupation where one doesn't have to do a lot of work.

[Publicus]

Past lives, future lives... all take away from being responsible for one's actions in this life.

When the poor sacrifice their meager resources to religion (making merit for example) they are taking away from their own potential in hopes of cashing in on something that doesn't exist.

"God will punish them," was the statement made to me by the Thai Buddhist English teacher I worked with in teaching English to a Mathayom 6 class in Bangkok. The class paid no attention to learning anything or to any study or any discourse. During class some of the boys sat at the back of the classroom leaning against the wall while strumming a guitar (one of two they kept in the classroom), others chatted and others did Thai homework. A few paid some attention to the lesson (reading abridged English classic novels). The class did this every day.

I said to the Thai English teacher god's deferred punishment at some unknown point in future time might be a good thing, but insisted that in the meantime we had to address the extant challenge, which left him silent. The situation remained unchanged throughout the school year.

I took two points from this for instance, typical experience. One is that Buddhism is inherently absent respect of education. Another is that its ethos is to do as little as possible, preferably nothing - minimally passing a test is better than spending time and work to pass with a high score. After all, the students ignoring their lessons weren't going to fall behind anyone else in the country because the mass of students at other schools weren't doing anything different or better.

Most of the senior students of that M-6 group flunked out of college or quit before they did, so maybe there's some hope. During application interviews with the uni committees the typical answer to the question, "Why should we admit you to our university," was "Because I'm a good person." (I subsequently told each of the students that that and five bucks will get you a cup of coffee in New York City.) 

There is a new respect of education in the contemporary culture because the new middle class knows it needs to learn something to compete in the global economy, while the upper crust Thai elites have continued to educate their heirs abroad (Abhisit, even born abroad, UK). However, modern economics and materialism, not Buddhism, are the force driving the new focus on education. 

This disregard of education is a giant hole in the middle of Buddhism.

[ChiangMaiFun]

A true story for you all:

Recently the lady who lived next door to us died and about a week after two trucks turned up accompnied by a monk.

We thought she must have left something to the temple but no as it turned out the monk had been having an affair with this lady for the last 10 years and in that time had bought her a lot of furnature and had arrived after her death to claim it all back.

The ladies brother arrived and argued with the monk who called his friend who is a cop, the cop arrived and sent the brother packing with a couple of photos, of monks incidentaly,

The trucks left for parts unknown loaded with very nice looking furnature.

How could I put my faith in a man like that monk or not? Maybe the monkhood has themselves to blame.

I've seen similar incidences first hand as well (back in Texas we used to see monks from the local Austin and S.A. temples coming to our supermarket to rent videos, often times adult videos, buying Singha, buying lottery tickets, and of course paying for everything in cash... no doubt mostly donations). An awful lot of folks look at the monkhood as just another occupation where one doesn't have to do a lot of work.

All of this is true and I am very disappointed with Thai monks (not all of them!) and I have heard worse stories - but do not confuse wearing the 'yellow robe' outside with wearing it 'inside'.

[Heng]

That's why I didn't really have an issue (nor did most shops IME) with their patronizing our business. We really didn't look at them as monks, but just folks that didn't know how to do anything else (not unlike folks that do nothing in their lives other than "believe").

[BSJ]

I have no desire or intent to be involved with any religion. But I do believe that everyone has the right to an opinion. Unfortunately many religious view points are biased, although in this case I thought the comments to be more balanced than some I have read.

[dumball]

I was of the impression that the monk-hood was a form of welfare , if you cannot support your child , put him in the monk-hood where he will learn to beg for himself and not have to feel guilty about it . All found as long as you wear this robe .

[Johpa]

The tenor of this thread seems to be that Thai Buddhism is already largely ceremonial.

Well what do you expect from the neo-sahibs who populate these boards whilst living in their condos or red tiled roof faux mubaans? These posters know little of the lives in the true mubaans, a village defined by the existence of a local temple. Some posters are even unaware that Thailand is surrounded by fellow Theravada Buddhists. And then one poster even equated Mahayana Buddhism, the Buddhism practiced in the culturally distinct East Asia as being similar to Christian Protestantism. But then again we have a monk, or the translator of the monk, talking about, within a Buddhist context, of Thais lacking faith. And if there is one Judeao-Christian-Muslim religious aspect that is blissfully missing in all forms of Buddhism it is the removal of "faith" from the religious mix. And just as a language is a dialect with an army behind it, a religion is a cult with an army behind it.

In short, this thread, including the original article, is so far off track and contains so much ignorance that there is really nowhere to go.

[yesdavy]

For myself, in both of those cases (and often in real life as well), those are both instances of trying to absolve oneself (and sometimes others) of responsibility. In the former case we're attempting to lower the value of hard work and in the latter, we're trying to lower the value of taking care of one's health (it's not condomless sex, heavy drinking, or drug use... but apparently whatever you did in a past life that has you ill in this one).

*If it were a car accident, plane crash, it's suddenly not as much drunk driving or pilot error but all of the combined karma of the victims.*

*Bank robbery, real estate scam, mostly on the victims again, same reason.*

If the pilot's number is up, everybody's number is up, regardless of karma.

[yesdavy]

A true story for you all:

Recently the lady who lived next door to us died and about a week after two trucks turned up accompnied by a monk.

We thought she must have left something to the temple but no as it turned out the monk had been having an affair with this lady for the last 10 years and in that time had bought her a lot of furnature and had arrived after her death to claim it all back.

The ladies brother arrived and argued with the monk who called his friend who is a cop, the cop arrived and sent the brother packing with a couple of photos, of monks incidentaly,

The trucks left for parts unknown loaded with very nice looking furnature.

How could I put my faith in a man like that monk or not? Maybe the monkhood has themselves to blame.

I've seen similar incidences first hand as well (back in Texas we used to see monks from the local Austin and S.A. temples coming to our supermarket to rent videos, often times adult videos, buying Singha, buying lottery tickets, and of course paying for everything in cash... no doubt mostly donations). An awful lot of folks look at the monkhood as just another occupation where one doesn't have to do a lot of work.

All of this is true and I am very disappointed with Thai monks (not all of them!) and I have heard worse stories - but do not confuse wearing the 'yellow robe' outside with wearing it 'inside'.

Do you recall about a year or more ago that a group of Thais were deported out of Singapore for impersonating monks and collecting a lot of donations? They turned around, according to the newspaper, and went back and resumed collecting donations.

[Bagwan]

Anybody remembver the comedy of monks from the wat on Pattaya Tai collecting produce and goods from the market opposite and stocking their own shop on Pattaya Nua with it? Nice little racket while it lasted.

I ask my wife why she is a Buddhist and the only answer I get is that she is. End of story. I tell her that if she had been born and raised in Italy or the Philippines she would be Catholic. Not so she says. She steadfastly refuses to discuss her (blind) faith. She obviously does not want to be accused of 'thinking too mut'.

A poster in another thread eloquently made the point that Buddhism may have had some purpose 2,500 years ago but, like most religion and royalty, has little relevance in the 21st century. In my view religion adds to more people's misery than alleviating it.

'

[Chopper71]

I spoke to a Thai friend of mine a while back, she was telling me that her little brother (12 yrs old) has just become a Monk. So I'm yapping away to her about his life and imagining an idyllic existence in an old monastery on the edge of paddy fields in the countryside and all the little Monks walking around in their robes in the morning mist. She tells me that they have to go to class everyday to do their schooling, I'm thinking fair enough. Then she tells me that they do all their school work on laptops in the classroom, kind of takes the romance out of the whole thing. But then again it's 2553 and guess that things move on in Monk world too!

A monk with a computer is radical but the same same old message is hardly not. However, he's right that Thais, whose Buddhism is the minority Theravada cult of the clergy (songhla) in contrast to the majority Mahayana Buddists who neighbor Thailand and populate other parts of the world, and who when it comes to scripture and its meaning and interpretations are more akin to Christian Protestants, are more concerned with ritual than with content or substance. So my take of contemporary Thai Theravada Buddhism and the monk's statements above is that no matter how your slice it, it's still baloney (bologna).

Edited June 5, 2010 by Chopper71

[yabaaaa]

Past lives, future lives... all take away from being responsible for one's actions in this life.

When the poor sacrifice their meager resources to religion (making merit for example) they are taking away from their own potential in hopes of cashing in on something that doesn't exist.

Hmmmm Let's see how this works logically ----- Heng is claiming something can be proven to not exist when in fact it can't. In this case it is the religion of atheism. Can't prove a God doesn't exist but wants us to take it on faith

For those that dn't see Buddhism put into practice by MANY Thai people on a daily basis in their lives, well, they just don't know that many Thai people I guess.

Cant prove or disprove theres a planet made of cheese 10billion billion miles away, but would it seem likely? or probable?

[Publicus]

The tenor of this thread seems to be that Thai Buddhism is already largely ceremonial.

Well what do you expect from the neo-sahibs who populate these boards whilst living in their condos or red tiled roof faux mubaans? These posters know little of the lives in the true mubaans, a village defined by the existence of a local temple. Some posters are even unaware that Thailand is surrounded by fellow Theravada Buddhists. And then one poster even equated Mahayana Buddhism, the Buddhism practiced in the culturally distinct East Asia as being similar to Christian Protestantism. But then again we have a monk, or the translator of the monk, talking about, within a Buddhist context, of Thais lacking faith. And if there is one Judeao-Christian-Muslim religious aspect that is blissfully missing in all forms of Buddhism it is the removal of "faith" from the religious mix. And just as a language is a dialect with an army behind it, a religion is a cult with an army behind it.

In short, this thread, including the original article, is so far off track and contains so much ignorance that there is really nowhere to go.

The disallowed image/map which I had to delete because it's not allowed by TV shows that Thailand is not "surrounded" by adherents of Theravada Buddhism. Theravada Buddhism, or "The Teaching of the Elders," is predominant and prevalent in Sri Lanka, Laos, Burma, Thailand. Mahayana Buddhism (The Great Vehicle) is predominant and prevalent in Vietnam, Cambodia, Tibet, China, Korea, Japan and Taiwan. The reality leaves Thailand among a distinct tiny minority of adherents to the Theravada School of Buddhism.

It would be revealing to research and identify the features and qualities both internal and external that had, from 17th century Ayutthaya/Ayudhya until the turn of the 21st century (2543 BE), made Thailand such a relative powerhouse economy and society among its SE Asian Theravada neighbors, as they are, to include in many ways making Siam a greater society and economy than China.

Further, identifying the fault lines that have emerged over the past decade and which have led to the unraveling of Thai society would also be revealing, diagnostic and perhaps could lead to some idea of a viable immediate solution and future new order of the country. Such sober research and analysis could help to explain how the fairy tale Thai existence of 1946 to 2006 has effectively and realistically smashed into another of the many brick walls of history that appear in various places and at various times.    

To view the map of Buddhist societies, which are Theravada and which are Mahayana - not of societies which have some Buddhists of either kind - the link is:

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhi...ld/schools1.htm

Edited June 5, 2010 by Publicus

[Publicus]

A monk with a computer is radical but the same same old message is hardly not.

What is and from where are the radical new thought and action coming out of the Sangha? Many millions of seem to have missed it. Or more likely there still isn't any new content regardless of some new form.

Edited June 5, 2010 by Publicus

[ding]

Hard to say what's in someone's heart and in their mind.

Harder still for a spiritually imperfect man like me to judge a person's inconsistencies -let alone a country's dualities and contradictions.

History teaches that we sometimes have to meet power-driven sociopaths on their own terms -blood and iron.

[Publicus]

Hard to say what's in someone's heart and in their mind.

Harder still for a spiritually imperfect man like me to judge a person's inconsistencies -let alone a country's dualities and contradictions.

History teaches that we sometimes have to meet power-driven sociopaths on their own terms -blood and iron.

I'd add psychopath to that.

[Ulysses G.]

He could have used the word Christian instead of Buddhist and it would still be true.

Makes no difference the principles of both are overlooked by the greedy all for me and to heck with you people.

Exactly. Religion is only what one makes of it.

[jackr]

Lets face it, the majority of Thais are way off the mark regards Buddhism - all this merit making, giving alms, etc, is ultimately about doing oneself a favour down the line.

IMO Thailand would be more competitive if they could do away with religion (and superstition while they're at it) entirely.

Yep, and the rest of the world. Practice it yourself if you like, but stop ramming it down people's throats. Imagine what that wealth could do for the poor if the church were dissolved for one. I also say kick out the pope and make the Vatican part of Rome as one large museum, and as for that Xenu thing (Scientology)... dear oh dear Mr Cruise.

[ChiangMaiFun]

The tenor of this thread seems to be that Thai Buddhism is already largely ceremonial.

Well what do you expect from the neo-sahibs who populate these boards whilst living in their condos or red tiled roof faux mubaans? These posters know little of the lives in the true mubaans, a village defined by the existence of a local temple. Some posters are even unaware that Thailand is surrounded by fellow Theravada Buddhists. And then one poster even equated Mahayana Buddhism, the Buddhism practiced in the culturally distinct East Asia as being similar to Christian Protestantism. But then again we have a monk, or the translator of the monk, talking about, within a Buddhist context, of Thais lacking faith. And if there is one Judeao-Christian-Muslim religious aspect that is blissfully missing in all forms of Buddhism it is the removal of "faith" from the religious mix. And just as a language is a dialect with an army behind it, a religion is a cult with an army behind it.

In short, this thread, including the original article, is so far off track and contains so much ignorance that there is really nowhere to go.

agreed - useful link for people thanks - yes 'faith' is an strange thing to associate with Buddhism - completely absurd considering Buddhism does not require 'faith' in a 'saviour' etc.

The disallowed image/map which I had to delete because it's not allowed by TV shows that Thailand is not "surrounded" by adherents of Theravada Buddhism. Theravada Buddhism, or "The Teaching of the Elders," is predominant and prevalent in Sri Lanka, Laos, Burma, Thailand. Mahayana Buddhism (The Great Vehicle) is predominant and prevalent in Vietnam, Cambodia, Tibet, China, Korea, Japan and Taiwan. The reality leaves Thailand among a distinct tiny minority of adherents to the Theravada School of Buddhism.

It would be revealing to research and identify the features and qualities both internal and external that had, from 17th century Ayutthaya/Ayudhya until the turn of the 21st century (2543 BE), made Thailand such a relative powerhouse economy and society among its SE Asian Theravada neighbors, as they are, to include in many ways making Siam a greater society and economy than China.

Further, identifying the fault lines that have emerged over the past decade and which have led to the unraveling of Thai society would also be revealing, diagnostic and perhaps could lead to some idea of a viable immediate solution and future new order of the country. Such sober research and analysis could help to explain how the fairy tale Thai existence of 1946 to 2006 has effectively and realistically smashed into another of the many brick walls of history that appear in various places and at various times.

To view the map of Buddhist societies, which are Theravada and which are Mahayana - not of societies which have some Buddhists of either kind - the link is:

http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhi...ld/schools1.htm

[Colabamumbai]

I would tend to agree with this Monk. Materialism has surpassed Buddism in Thailand. Forty years ago it could have considered itself a country of Buddah. Today it is a country of fast cars, flashy clothes, everyone with a cellphone and ten people on every corner hustling for a buck. Thailand needs to get back to the basics of the teachings of Buddah. It should be mandatory in schools.

[Heng]

If the pilot's number is up, everybody's number is up, regardless of karma.

No kidding. But some folks seems to 'need' to want to add a deeper hocus pocus to it. It might just be a need to fill that sudden vacuum of lost love ones, it might be to help folks convince themselves that budget airlines with 20-30 year old planes, with the occasional pilot with chronic sleep disorders are 'just as good.' (again, absolving responsibility)

[ChiangMaiFun]

If the pilot's number is up, everybody's number is up, regardless of karma.

No kidding. But some folks seems to 'need' to want to add a deeper hocus pocus to it. It might just be a need to fill that sudden vacuum of lost love ones, it might be to help folks convince themselves that budget airlines with 20-30 year old planes, with the occasional pilot with chronic sleep disorders are 'just as good.' (again, absolving responsibility)

a basic misunderstanding of karma

[Heng]

Misunderstanding or not, that's how a good number of folks look at it.

Similar to how God is somehow on all sides of a battlefield and 'speaking' to everyone.

Getting rid of both concepts entirely would take away some of the impetus to come up with these 'creative' detrimental to the believer points of view.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Heng

[pattayardm]

Which country is religious ?

Which country promotes compassion, love, equality, patience and other higher values ?

Thailand is not alone with this problem.

[ChiangMaiFun]

Misunderstanding or not, that's how a good number of folks look at it.

Similar to how God is somehow on all sides of a battlefield and 'speaking' to everyone.

Getting rid of both concepts entirely would take away some of the impetus to come up with these 'creative' detrimental to the believer points of view.

Not sure we want to get into a huge discussion about karma - but suffice it to say that it is a 'now' and 'you are responsible' concept/law. It is a misrepresentation to conclude that it absolves responsibility - it is the opposite. It is not about your past life/lives made you what you are so you can do nothing and it is also not about planning your future life and forgetting this one - or going to the temple and giving something - this also is a misrepresentation and 'immature' way of viewing karma.

It IS about having total responsibility for your life and understanding that you are the sum total of your actions and that you, now, will build your future - and so it is about absolute self-responsibility - which is missing so much in the world today as we blame:

parents

schooling

the world etc.

Karma teaches - forget all that - YOU are responsible now, past and future - and so encourages work, perseverance and focus – the opposite to the ‘quick glance’ overview you have postulated - I am not saying this is fairly represented in Thai Buddhism - but this is what karma is.

[ChiangMaiFun]

Which country is religious ?

Which country promotes compassion, love, equality, patience and other higher values ?

Thailand is not alone with this problem.

Look at the person not the country... HH Dalai Lama for example... the world is light years away from a country representing anything 'spiritual' - maybe when Bodhisattva Reappears - not before...

[Heng]

Misunderstanding or not, that's how a good number of folks look at it.

Similar to how God is somehow on all sides of a battlefield and 'speaking' to everyone.

Getting rid of both concepts entirely would take away some of the impetus to come up with these 'creative' detrimental to the believer points of view.

Not sure we want to get into a huge discussion about karma - but suffice it to say that it is a 'now' and 'you are responsible' concept/law. It is a misrepresentation to conclude that it absolves responsibility - it is the opposite. It is not about your past life/lives made you what you are so you can do nothing and it is also not about planning your future life and forgetting this one - or going to the temple and giving something - this also is a misrepresentation and 'immature' way of viewing karma.

It IS about having total responsibility for your life and understanding that you are the sum total of your actions and that you, now, will build your future - and so it is about absolute self-responsibility - which is missing so much in the world today as we blame:

parents

schooling

the world etc.

Karma teaches - forget all that - YOU are responsible now, past and future - and so encourages work, perseverance and focus – the opposite to the ‘quick glance’ overview you have postulated - I am not saying this is fairly represented in Thai Buddhism - but this is what karma is.

Yeah, I'm not talking about ideological karma, I'm talking about karma (and faith, and God things, etc.) as commonly applied (to often absolve responsibility). It's not my own choice, it's a God thing's will... it's the result of past other life deeds, etc.

[ChiangMaiFun]

Misunderstanding or not, that's how a good number of folks look at it.

Similar to how God is somehow on all sides of a battlefield and 'speaking' to everyone.

Getting rid of both concepts entirely would take away some of the impetus to come up with these 'creative' detrimental to the believer points of view.

Not sure we want to get into a huge discussion about karma - but suffice it to say that it is a 'now' and 'you are responsible' concept/law. It is a misrepresentation to conclude that it absolves responsibility - it is the opposite. It is not about your past life/lives made you what you are so you can do nothing and it is also not about planning your future life and forgetting this one - or going to the temple and giving something - this also is a misrepresentation and 'immature' way of viewing karma.

It IS about having total responsibility for your life and understanding that you are the sum total of your actions and that you, now, will build your future - and so it is about absolute self-responsibility - which is missing so much in the world today as we blame:

parents

schooling

the world etc.

Karma teaches - forget all that - YOU are responsible now, past and future - and so encourages work, perseverance and focus – the opposite to the 'quick glance' overview you have postulated - I am not saying this is fairly represented in Thai Buddhism - but this is what karma is.

Yeah, I'm not talking about ideological karma, I'm talking about karma (and faith, and God things, etc.) as commonly applied (to often absolve responsibility). It's not my own choice, it's a God thing's will... it's the result of past other life deeds, etc.

I think you mis-describe what you are trying to say - it's not karma (ideological or otherwise) but people may think it is I guess - but anyone who actually studies it soon learns that this is a popular misconception - and it's worth setting the record straight (which is what I've tried to do - probably in a poor way).

[Heng]

Misunderstanding or not, that's how a good number of folks look at it.

Similar to how God is somehow on all sides of a battlefield and 'speaking' to everyone.

Getting rid of both concepts entirely would take away some of the impetus to come up with these 'creative' detrimental to the believer points of view.

Not sure we want to get into a huge discussion about karma - but suffice it to say that it is a 'now' and 'you are responsible' concept/law. It is a misrepresentation to conclude that it absolves responsibility - it is the opposite. It is not about your past life/lives made you what you are so you can do nothing and it is also not about planning your future life and forgetting this one - or going to the temple and giving something - this also is a misrepresentation and 'immature' way of viewing karma.

It IS about having total responsibility for your life and understanding that you are the sum total of your actions and that you, now, will build your future - and so it is about absolute self-responsibility - which is missing so much in the world today as we blame:

parents

schooling

the world etc.

Karma teaches - forget all that - YOU are responsible now, past and future - and so encourages work, perseverance and focus – the opposite to the 'quick glance' overview you have postulated - I am not saying this is fairly represented in Thai Buddhism - but this is what karma is.

Yeah, I'm not talking about ideological karma, I'm talking about karma (and faith, and God things, etc.) as commonly applied (to often absolve responsibility). It's not my own choice, it's a God thing's will... it's the result of past other life deeds, etc.

I think you mis-describe what you are trying to say - it's not karma (ideological or otherwise) but people may think it is I guess - but anyone who actually studies it soon learns that this is a popular misconception - and it's worth setting the record straight (which is what I've tried to do - probably in a poor way).

Let me know which part you are unclear about and I'll clarify it for you. Again, I'm talking about what people often attribute to what they understand is karma, I'm not talking about the semantics of karma.