Economics Of Isaan

[IsaanAussie]

Hi all,

I have been reading a study done by TDRI in September last year on the percentage split up for the farmers in Thailand. The table attached, extracted from the study shows the average split for some 800 households in Buriram and over 900 in Ubon.

I pose a question to those out there, who like me, attempt to make a living in farming. If the average Thai can only gain >30% of his meagre income from farming, are we deluding ourselves that we can do better?

Isaanaussie

Income_split.pdf

Edited June 5, 2010 by IsaanAussie

[NADTATIDA1]

In short...yes....but also a farang has more money for start up costs,so in theory will be better prepared and have good machinery!

But we all know there are other elements that come into play and always end up taking that +% quickly to -%

Better keeping it as a hobby and enough to feed the family from

[timpatco]

In short...yes....but also a farang has more money for start up costs,so in theory will be better prepared and have good machinery!

But we all know there are other elements that come into play and always end up taking that +% quickly to -%

Better keeping it as a hobby and enough to feed the family from

Hi,

Not trying to be difficult, but my understanding was farming was listed as being protected for Thai nationals only?

And also not knowing you background, I though this might be a good place in TV to make a few points.

The Thai Board of Investment provides excellent assistance and intiatives to encourage setting up business in Thailand that truly will help the Thai economy and improve the lot of rural Thais in moving from what amounts to not much better than a subsistance living in farming.

NOT JUST FOR BIG BUSINESS:

I have been instrumental in helping to get one specialsied sporting goods manufacturing business underway south of Chiang Mai, and for sure the overall cost structure in these niche manufacturing opportunites makes it attractive and viable vs. China, India and other competing countries, and for mine, so much more fun and rewarding to do in the LoS rather then other places around Asia.

If anyone here has thought that this might be something they would like to get involved in, and have the basic business skills and access to capital, I would be very happy to share what I have learned and what has been achieved.

For sure this beats handouts and violent protest as a means to help those that need it most and are prepared to work their way out of the problems Isaan people are experiencing.

I know and can prove it can be done, and the Thai governement is well prepared and able to help any genuine initiative.

[NADTATIDA1]

Hi Timpacto

Yes you are correct it is listed for Thais only but i think you will find that many a foriegner does help out with finances and enjoys Volunteering to help out in the daily work that goes on down on the farm or down the garden,actually in issan it is amazing some of the gardens i have seen owned by farangs and tended by them,i think the bulk of farm work is actually done by Thais but funded by a farang down the line via a family memeber somewhere.

The work permit situation is really a new thread, unless you really need one for supplying funds to grass root enterprises then i think it can wait until a agricultural venture is taking off and showing real prospects.

Your initative in CM sounds interesting how many Thais do you employ and what is your product,pm me if you want to i am genuinely interested.Also interested in what help you gained from the authorities?

[IMA_FARANG]

The trap for farmers...especially the local Thai farmers...is that they get involed in the "borrow money...repay with interest from revenues" downward cycle. That's the problem. Until there is money available at low interest for farmers, that cycle can't be broken. That's why the farmer loses interest in farming, and gives up the battle.

So. if you have money to start up your farm. you can make enough to get by. It's that "borrow money at the beginning for start-up" trap that gets the low income farmers into debt at the beginning.

[kandahar]

I know you asked for input from farmers and I am not a farmer. However, as a former farmer and rancher, I think I have some valid input. So, please forgive this intrusion.

Farming in and of itself isn't a living for an individual or a family these days in most countries. It is either supplemental income for a person employed seasonally or full-time in another trade or the farm itself is supplemented by family members working outside in other trades. It just boils down to how one wants to classify himself. Is he a farmer with a supplemental job or is he a tradesman with part-time farming supplementing his trade income?

In the old days in my home country, farmers could make it on their own. These days, every "family farmer" I know either works a job outside the farm or his wife works a job outside the farm. They could not survive with the farm income alone. Corporate farming companies are slowly buying up the farmland. They can make it profitable because of a variety of reasons. A few of those reasons are: They pay cheap wages, their equipment investment is spread over many thousands of acres, they can get better prices on seed and fertilizer because of the large amounts that they buy, they actually own their own product storage/drying facilities, they can better take advantage of tax incentives, they can afford to hold onto product for a longer period of time until the price is better and their crops span large areas of the country where the different seasons allow them to use their equipment year-round.

Thailand of course, has a year round growing season and is know for multiple crops per year. Unfortunately, the economy is also pretty much a micro-economy, which means the cost of living is cheap, as is the return on investment of money or time, no matter what you have invested in. Unless you're a mega-corporation, you're restricted by the laws of economics.

In order to prevail in the face of economic realities, you have to do one of two things. You have to invest an incredible amount that insures that you have basically become a influential factor in the commodity that you are in or you have to diversify, becoming less of a farmer and more of an entrepreneur.

Adding honey bees to your operation brings in some extra cash. I used to ship 48,000 pounds of honey from a farm twice a year (not my farm). At the time, the price was nearly three dollars U.S. per pound and the honey was delivered to a bulk food packager. Nice little bonus for the owner of the farm. He told me that his bee investment had been returned years ago and each honey crop was cash in the bank. He had maxed out on the number of hives that could be supported by the crops in his area. He was no longer just a farmer.

A friend in my home country decided to go into a "pick your own" berry farm. But that wasn't enough income. There were just too few people willing to pick their own and he had to limit the number of acres he farmed. He found out that he had to offer free classes in the surrounding communities on wine-making, jam and jelly making, preserves and canning. That paid off. He now sells not only the fruit that he grows but the jars, lids, recipe books, wine-making paraphernalia and ingredients and so on. He is doing well but he is no longer just a farmer.

I see by your avatar that you must be in the hog business. I'll assume that you raise your own feed as well. Something to consider is creating more of a market for what you already have. Pork jerky, Thai style? Cured, dried, seasoned and packaged with the right logo or slogan. Curing equipment, smoking equipment, packaging supplies, recipes, sauces and spices for sale to the do-it-your-selfers? Sausage making classes? Offering better feed to the other hog growers than they can get locally. Manure enriched garden bedding packaged in bags?

Are you more knowledgeable in hogs than the Thais? Offer classes on hog farming that include tours of the farm, hands on treatment of the different ailments, information on feed mixes, artificial insemination services and include several piglets in the price of the class. When the class is finished, the students leave with a small start-up operation in the back of the pickup truck. This could be tied in with a school project. How many pigs per year would a student have to raise to cover the cost of his/her schooling and can you guarantee a buy-back price at a certain age/weight?

Miniature pigs for pets? Has that craze hit here yet? I haven't seen any but I don't get out much.

Whole hog barbecues for local festivals, wedding parties and such? That is a business in itself if you have the personnel/staff to tow the trailer and cook and serve the hog. Of course, your jerky products would be displayed at these functions as well. Getting the sponsors for such thing will come easily enough as your reputation grows.

Okay. Enough. You're smarter than I am. The answer to your question in these times is, no, you can't expect to make a good living from traditional farming in most cases and you know that. But you can make a good living if you incorporate your dream with other things. Farming is becoming more and more a corporate industrial endeavor and will one day, be nearly 100 percent corporate, even in Thailand. The family farm survivors will be doing the things that a corporation cannot be bothered with. So, in your case and your area, what is that? Good luck.

[IsaanAussie]

Interesting responses so far. Thai law does prohibit foreigners working in agriculture, paid or not. Legally you could not even volunteer.

Debt issue. Dead right and will take time to be solved. Thailand has rapidly advanced its manufacturing industries at the expense of, or perhaps neglect of the farmers. In recent years more money has been allocated by the Thai government and they are pushing the banks to look more kindly at financing farmers. I can understand the banks being reluctant without a good hold over the only asset most have, the land title. Many of those have more leins on them than the tower of Piza already.

Apart from those issues, the real challenges are in getting realistic prices and better diversification. Around me it is "one in, all in" everyone growing the same things and basically competing with their neighbours to fill the next pickup truck that enters the Mobahn. Attempts to sell direct to market outlets and shops are often effected by mafia like interference.

If the Thais can't achieve it, my question was, how can we? Surely pouring money into a lost cause is not the brightness of ideas? For me the answer is in value adding to maximise values. Integrated farming is not something that is practiced widely here, nor is decent cost accounting.

Keep it coming guys....

Isaanaussie

[carnac]

It's too hot to farm. What Isaan needs is industrial parks with high-tech/green foreign companies like Samsung, LG, Apple, etc., etc., providing thousands of good paying jobs in a climate controlled environment.

[NADTATIDA1]

I think your last post and Kandahars star post sum it up quite well really,for a foriegner to succeed in a agricultural business venture here is virtually impossible unless you are corporate player and that too with the employment laws must come with some serious financial risks.

The only thing i tend to disagree with is you say integrated farming is not widely practised here,from what i have seen the Thais are experts in making something from nothing and have great entrepronural(sp) skills but sadly the whole thing that lets them down is as you said.......there is very little decent cost accounting,which at the end of the day is the important bit

[IsaanAussie]

It's too hot to farm. What Isaan needs is industrial parks with high-tech/green foreign companies like Samsung, LG, Apple, etc., etc., providing thousands of good paying jobs in a climate controlled environment.

Out of interest and not cynicism, what interest do you have in a forum on farming?

[IsaanAussie]

I think your last post and Kandahars star post sum it up quite well really,for a foriegner to succeed in a agricultural business venture here is virtually impossible unless you are corporate player and that too with the employment laws must come with some serious financial risks.

The only thing i tend to disagree with is you say integrated farming is not widely practised here,from what i have seen the Thais are experts in making something from nothing and have great entrepronural(sp) skills but sadly the whole thing that lets them down is as you said.......there is very little decent cost accounting,which at the end of the day is the important bit

Interested to know how deep your experience is, again honest question. I find that there is little integration, some byproducts, such as cow manure is scrapped out and used to fertiliser some crops. But the limited number of animals cannot fill demand. Trees cleared are usually sawn into building material size and submerged to reduce resins etc.. helping whiteant type problems. But I have yet to see anything that resembles a closed loop system.

Financial risk? Two points, firstly when and where has agriculture ever been without disporportionate risk? Secondly, after the last few years on a global basis, please tell me that risk has amplified everywhere. Life has become an everyday-athon, increasing demands on our resources time and nervious efforts.

It's not that I am risk averse, I just crave the slower pace of life that I enjoyed as a child, time to watch the world go by. Farm life in Thailand is as close as I have ever come.

[NADTATIDA1]

Well agriculture in the western world as a business venture is not comparable to Thailands laws,corruption and difficulty in owning land for a start so you just cannot compare it globally unless you are a Thai! thats just the way it is.

If you are talking closed loop systems then yes i agree Thailand is a few years off that yet,i was commenting on the whole basics of integration where they have the knowledge and skills to be extremely diverse in there years old traditions of farming wheather it be crop,livestock or fish.

I think you understand that the financial risk of doing it in Thailand really does not lead to the picture postcard wonderland we all would like to be at....Nirvana!

[kandahar]

It's not that I am risk averse, I just crave the slower pace of life that I enjoyed as a child, time to watch the world go by. Farm life in Thailand is as close as I have ever come.

This statement gives this thread an entirely new turn.

As a child, someone else was looking out for you and worrying about paying the bills, perhaps working from dawn until dusk and then some, to do so. I don't know of any successful farmers these days who live a slower pace of life. If they aren't immersed in the daily chores and grind of running the farm, they are engrossed in the business and financial end of it, trying to stay ahead of the banks, worrying themselves sick. The ones that I do know who chose to inherit Dad's farm and live at the slower pace were soon out of a farm and a home.

The words "slower pace" just don't go with farming much any more. And more and more every day, those words don't go with many things that they used to go with.

Of course, the financial risk in farming has been disproportionate. No one can predict the crop prices, the weather or natural disasters. And even if you could predict all of that in your own country, that isn't enough. You would have to be able to predict the same thing in other countries because those countries crop and commodity successes or failures affect your prices. And the financial risks of anything that a Farang gets into in Thailand is a lot more than it would be in other places. Corruption and opportunity make the rules here.

Again, diversify and be prepared to spend the time needed to make that a success.

Or become the corporate giant that has some say in making the rules. And remember, when you come into it with enough money to make a difference, you are pretty much running the little guy out of business. That alone is something to give careful consideration to. Many a corporation has found a way to do it cheaper while holding down costs and when they do, the little guy disappears. The little guys we are talking about in your case don't deserve such a fate. It will come one day, like it or not. The question is, do you want to be the guy that does that to them to make a financial gain for yourself?

So, a better question is, "How can you work within the system, being a part of it without being intrusive and actually helping the same people that you see as your competition?"

Don't go head to head with them. They can't compete if enough money is thrown into it from your side. And they don't deserve to have their way of life turned upside down by a mega-corporation that rationalizes that the few jobs being offered offsets the negatives. Some would say, "If you can't beat them, join them". You would starve if you joined them. You can't do what they do for the same cost. Now, with enough money, you could beat them. But it isn't the right thing to do. Better to say, "It is better to lead than to conquer". Maybe it is time to see about starting a Co-op, sharing that perfect boar, buying feed in bulk with your competitors and so on. Maybe it is time to start school children in the hog-raising business and to make sure that they learn the proper accounting practices, one pig at a time and new school clothes and books are paid for each year. Maybe you can get some interest from the government or local schools in that sort of project. And there is probably a valid work permit available for such a task.

You mention wanting the slower pace of life. I don't think it can be found with the typical farming available in Thailand. So, instead of beating your head against the farming rock, try something that involves a bit of humanitarianism. Perhaps the slower pace won't look so attractive once you have realized how much good you can do, how many lives you can change.

Maybe instead of being the successful Farang farmer, you can be the guy who made so many successful Thai farmers.

So, what is it you want? Do you want the slower pace of your childhood or do you want to be a farmer? You can't have both. Or, do you want to do something in farming that matters, something that involves your skills, your knowledge, your personal drive and leaves your mark on a population for centuries to come?

Back to your original question. You aren't deluding yourself that you can do better. You are deluding yourself that you can't do better by others and thereby, doing better for yourself.

Edited June 5, 2010 by kandahar

[bina]

interesting posts, kandahar yes, i agree; here in israel corporate farming has becoe the only way for nayone to make any real money (and of course a thai work force. w/o the thai work force, there is no farming). however a new trend has started, i guess with what u had said: one person runs a small niche type farm, the other works outside for the 'real' money. here, the two trends are goats/boutique cheeses/restaraunt and the olives, fruit preserves and other gourmet foods that others in the area want to sell; organics for the niche boutique veggie area; but real crop farming, its all large groups. even my kibbutz joined up with five other moshavs and kibbutzim to form a separate company with its own machinery, gin for the cotton, spraying/etc. everyone supplies their own workers however.

the small private farmers (from veggies to cow milk to eggs/meat chickens) are dying out as they cant compete also due to the borrow on next years crop/harvest/eggs way of working and they just cant keepup financially or physcially. ecotourism/pick your own/ country A frame bread-and- breakfast rooms are the other answer to all the small timers. i always ahve this idea to try in the future something along these lines. or i could start an issaan kibbutz )

an other problem i find is that country thais tend to think small. hubby is very happy to get some money on his washing machines (second hand renoated for thai workers here) but it is small change good for buying beer and small items. he doesnt keep books for how much expenditure vx money coming in nor for how much time or parts even if they are second hand ... he feels that as long as poeple are giving him money for his services he is making money. that is fine for daily living, not so good if u want to manage a farm or business for profit of more then just 'loose change'. he seems to have real problems with understanding the differences, and he is intelligent and hard working, thought w/o shcool edu., he is sharp at making deals, not a sucker, but something so very country thai seems to keep him from making a breakthough in thought processes for running a business. its a bit haphazard i gues su could call it.

the more i see of the problems of the local farmers here, and see how the large corporate farms run themselves, i will farm only for my dinner and for some bartering.

as far as livestock, i also will not go in to that ever again. we recently had a beautiful mare get stolen a month before birth with a very expensive foal in her... all the vet bills, feeding bills, stud service, invested for this foal... (

and i gave up on the idea of goats in thailand (in the future) also......

bina

israel

[kandahar]

interesting posts, kandahar yes, i agree; here in israel corporate farming has becoe the only way for nayone to make any real money (and of course a thai work force. w/o the thai work force, there is no farming). however a new trend has started, i guess with what u had said: one person runs a small niche type farm, the other works outside for the 'real' money. here, the two trends are goats/boutique cheeses/restaraunt and the olives, fruit preserves and other gourmet foods that others in the area want to sell; organics for the niche boutique veggie area; but real crop farming, its all large groups. even my kibbutz joined up with five other moshavs and kibbutzim to form a separate company with its own machinery, gin for the cotton, spraying/etc. everyone supplies their own workers however.

the small private farmers (from veggies to cow milk to eggs/meat chickens) are dying out as they cant compete also due to the borrow on next years crop/harvest/eggs way of working and they just cant keepup financially or physcially. ecotourism/pick your own/ country A frame bread-and- breakfast rooms are the other answer to all the small timers. i always ahve this idea to try in the future something along these lines. or i could start an issaan kibbutz )

an other problem i find is that country thais tend to think small. hubby is very happy to get some money on his washing machines (second hand renoated for thai workers here) but it is small change good for buying beer and small items. he doesnt keep books for how much expenditure vx money coming in nor for how much time or parts even if they are second hand ... he feels that as long as poeple are giving him money for his services he is making money. that is fine for daily living, not so good if u want to manage a farm or business for profit of more then just 'loose change'. he seems to have real problems with understanding the differences, and he is intelligent and hard working, thought w/o shcool edu., he is sharp at making deals, not a sucker, but something so very country thai seems to keep him from making a breakthough in thought processes for running a business. its a bit haphazard i gues su could call it.

the more i see of the problems of the local farmers here, and see how the large corporate farms run themselves, i will farm only for my dinner and for some bartering.

as far as livestock, i also will not go in to that ever again. we recently had a beautiful mare get stolen a month before birth with a very expensive foal in her... all the vet bills, feeding bills, stud service, invested for this foal... (

and i gave up on the idea of goats in thailand (in the future) also......

bina

israel

I'm so sorry to hear you lost that mare. I can't abide a thief.

You can only hope he/she/they get caught in the future.

[Chinavet]

Isaan Aussie is asking the question, "can we do better". As one of the most knowledgeable posters on this forum (and generous with his knowledge), I suspect your own answers/gut feelings will be better value.

Bina also, but describing your husband's approach sort of sums up the chances of our average rural Thai recognizing and implementing new and diverse business opportunities. I have identical issues with my wife and her family. They are decent and hard working, but cannot/will not grasp the most basic business fundamentals.

My input is for those like Isaan Aussie wondering is there a future, can you make it pay enough to continue? Based on observations over 30 years.

Just a few short years ago (5-6?) I think the first rice harvesters were being seen in our area of Surin, I think they were contractors from Si Sa Ket. Today, they are everywhere. The same is true of tractors. I can only guess this is the result of easy government money policies.

The lesson globally has always been the economics of mechanization demands bigger land areas. The same economics require a more corporate or well managed operation with the facilities to maintain more control over the crop.

Probably an unstoppable trend, and the end of a way of life for the traditional small landholder. Also a great threat to the remaining depleted forests, the water table, salt encroachment, wetlands and natural water ways. The destruction I have witnessed this past year is awesome.

Thailand (Isaan) is lagging in productivity compared to poorer neighbors. Cambodia especially, from my reading, is embracing intensive farming. Too late for Thailand, the young people are gone. There is not enough labor and there is no will or skills for new ideas. Anything small scale is faced with the realities of the local village economics.

I hate this story. But I believe the Isaan I know will change radically in the next decade, large scale farming will come to dominate. For the skilled, that is where the opportunity will be.

I hope I'm wrong about everything.

[witold]

Okay. Enough. You're smarter than I am. The answer to your question in these times is, no, you can't expect to make a good living from traditional farming in most cases and you know that. But you can make a good living if you incorporate your dream with other things. Farming is becoming more and more a corporate industrial endeavor and will one day, be nearly 100 percent corporate, even in Thailand. The family farm survivors will be doing the things that a corporation cannot be bothered with. So, in your case and your area, what is that? Good luck.

There is no way a small farm can overcome the economies of scale advantages of an industrial farm. Don't waste your time. You will be fighting a losing battle. I really like kandahar's response - if you really want to have a farm, find some sort of niche that can not be scaled easily by big operators.

[IsaanAussie]

Many of the posts here reflect my own thoughts. Yes, CPF and Betagro are the corporate giants and they have changed Thai argiculture for ever. Can my meagre enterprise compete with the Betagro's huge pig enterprises? Well that isn't even a question, the answer is just so self evidently, no way.

Kandahar, your comments echo my thoughts. But I make one, perhaps trivial distinction. To me working hard is part of life regardless of the "pace" of the life you live. No-one ever gave me anything for nothing, nor would I take it if offerred without giving something of value in return. The slow paced life I am talking about, is a different issue.

This is a matter of choice. Just because the pace of life is accelerating to "keep up with the Jones" for most of the world does not mean everyone has to play that game. I am technically retired, but to me you retire when they put you in a box with a lilly on your chest. I have just stopped playing corporate shuffleboard, competing for the crumbs as expected.

My lifestyle is possible here in Isaan whereas it would be unaffordable for me back in Australia. I do things that are fun and challenging and being a totally irresponsible person, ignore the rest. Mucking out the pigs is just one of the things that needs to get done several times each day. I find that enjoyable simply because of the interaction with the pigs. It has taken me two years to get to the stage I am now and still much remains to be done.

I am looking forward to achieving all the things that I have planned to "close the loop". Slowly.

I would also take a different slant to some comments on secondary income sources. I absolutely love building furniture, especially in teak. Yes I have made money from this activity over the years here. But for me its a passion.

My only "job" now is living. My pace of living in my own, slow enough....... I believe the last word should be.. FREE

[kandahar]

I understand the pace thing when you put it in that perspective. I am retired also but I work pretty hard most days. And yet, Thailand does offer a life free of most of the hassles of my home country. Hard work or not, it is a much more relaxed lifestyle. Your distinction isn't trivial.

I build furniture as well. But I use steel and Smartwood. Like you, I can't retire and just stop and sit around the house and I can't live in the bars.

Good luck with your future.

[IsaanAussie]

I understand the pace thing when you put it in that perspective. I am retired also but I work pretty hard most days. And yet, Thailand does offer a life free of most of the hassles of my home country. Hard work or not, it is a much more relaxed lifestyle. Your distinction isn't trivial.

I build furniture as well. But I use steel and Smartwood. Like you, I can't retire and just stop and sit around the house and I can't live in the bars.

Good luck with your future.

Kindred spirit apparently.

Steel work has been a very large part of my last couple of years. Both the house extension roof and all the framing above the concrete posts for the pig sty I have fabricated from steel sections. Now I am still making the pen gates, wall panels, feeders etc for the fitout. Two arc welders, good drop saw, pedestal drill, pipe bender....yardy-yar-yar.... Great fun when the toy box is full

Isaanaussie

[kandahar]

Do you have a MIG? Almost a necessity in Thailand with the thin steel that is available. If you don't have one, consider the Cliff brand. It is the inverter style, around 50,000 baht and pretty dependable. It is a real time saver compared to the stick.

[OOTAI]

Isaanaussie

Thanks for this thread it is most enjoyable reading. You have basically summed up my outlook in Post#18.

Hopefully in a couple of months when I finally "escape" from this life into my "retirement" in Thailand you will allow me to pay you a visit so I could discuss your ideas and opinions on God's gift to the world i.e. pigs.

Just one thing that I would like further clarification on is, where did the table you attached in your OP come from as I interpret in a little differently than you? As you have the benefit of the whole reprot and therefore can see the table in its full context I have no reason to doubt your view. However the way I read the table that 28.36% of the people in Buriram gain their income from agriculture & livestock rather than 28.36% of an individuals income coming from agriculture & livestock.

I hope to become self-sufficient rather than to trying to make an income from farming and at the same time keep myself "busy". Bina made some good points about the way country Thai's seem to think. I know my wife said to me one day "all thais worry about is do we have food for today and money to buy some food for tomorrow". I struggle at times to comprehend why it is that most don't understand some basic economics.

She recently asked me about whether I thought it would be a good idea for her to set up a shed and grow some mushrooms. The main point of concern to me was that she didn't understand the need to have a sure market for the end produce, she reckoned she would delat with that when needed. I did however convince her to maintain a record of all her expenditure and then record all her sales (revenue) and in the end I believe she broke even or was a few baht in front. She also came to the conclusion that the bags she boiught never performed as she was told they would in that they stopped producing a couple of months earlier than she thought they would. So in the end from my perspective it was a good outcome because it gave her something to do and think about, it taught her to have a better understanding of capital outlay and revenue and a truer understanding of what amking a "profit" actually means.

As kandahar says in one post, "Maybe instead of being the successful Farang farmer, you can be the guy who made so many successful Thai farmers" education can be as rewarding as making a profit.

[kandahar]

I haven't picked up a drill press. Still doing it the hard way. And I don't have a pipe bender but I don't use much pipe. Probably would use more if I have a bender.

Here's some of the furniture. The upper end tables swivel around in front of the user, rising two inches as they swivel. The lower tables don't move. The uppers work great for laptops, enjoying a lunch outside or for perusing a magazine.

Since most of the chairs are built for outdoors, I build flower-pot holders into them.

I have built a king-sized bed for our bedroom and a twin sized for the MIL and the night-tables and lights are built into them. Great fun.

Edited June 6, 2010 by kandahar

[IsaanAussie]

OOTAI

Comments added:

Thanks for this thread it is most enjoyable reading. You have basically summed up my outlook in Post#18.

Hopefully in a couple of months when I finally "escape" from this life into my "retirement" in Thailand you will allow me to pay you a visit so I could discuss your ideas and opinions on God's gift to the world i.e. pigs.

Visitors always welcome

Just one thing that I would like further clarification on is, where did the table you attached in your OP come from as I interpret in a little differently than you?

Link to the report

http://www.vulnerability-asia.uni-hannover...ions/TDRI_4.ppt

I hope to become self-sufficient rather than to trying to make an income from farming and at the same time keep myself "busy". Bina made some good points about the way country Thai's seem to think. I know my wife said to me one day "all thais worry about is do we have food for today and money to buy some food for tomorrow". I struggle at times to comprehend why it is that most don't understand some basic economics.

A friend once said, just because the thinking is different, doesnt mean its wrong... Sounds about as basic a form of economics as is possible.

She recently asked me about whether I thought it would be a good idea for her to set up a shed and grow some mushrooms. The main point of concern to me was that she didn't understand the need to have a sure market for the end produce, she reckoned she would delat with that when needed. I did however convince her to maintain a record of all her expenditure and then record all her sales (revenue) and in the end I believe she broke even or was a few baht in front. She also came to the conclusion that the bags she boiught never performed as she was told they would in that they stopped producing a couple of months earlier than she thought they would. So in the end from my perspective it was a good outcome because it gave her something to do and think about, it taught her to have a better understanding of capital outlay and revenue and a truer understanding of what amking a "profit" actually means.

Similiar issues here, we have established a shop at our place and the thought was to sell the same stuff as the other shops in the area. But my idea was to sell things that we grow, make or add value to. Yes we sell beer, whiskey by the peck and bottle, ice, as well as cigarettes, these have good margins and help subsidise me own consumption. But it is the pork, soup, pancakes and waffles and snowcones that make decent money. Now the wife can see that there is no point stocking the junk stuff with a one baht profit. 30% gross is much better way to look at it.

But I must hasten to add that our small village is never going to make us rich and the cost of running the display fridge and large freezer has lifted the electricity bills considerably. We do because it fun, the wife loves it. The sausage maker and bacon slicer are sitting idle at the moment awaiting the next pig. So what we have now is only the start of what I hope to establish. No single thing will make us wealthy here, but lots of little contributions make us comfortable.

As kandahar says in one post, "Maybe instead of being the successful Farang farmer, you can be the guy who made so many successful Thai farmers" education can be as rewarding as making a profit.

Happy to pass on any knowledge I have. Experience tells me that the locals like to see things happen and understand the costs before they will adopt something different.

[IsaanAussie]

Kandahar,

Thai style steel furniture. Well done. The only similar stuff I have seen here is rubbish or poisonously expensive imports. How many of these things have you sold?

MIG, yes nice to have. Getting gases and wires around here is not easy. At least a 100km round trip. Whereas RB26 rods are practically sold everywhere and are as cheap as dirt. We have developed a reliable technique of short burst, high amperage welding to handle light gauge tubing issues without blowing too many holes in the stuff or generating a lot of slag. I have a high pressure washer which removes most of this and a quick hit with the angle grinder smooths off the lumps. I am welding for strength not appearance. 50,000 baht thats a show stopper for me.

Drill press, always wanted one, makes those repetitious jobs easy and those large diameter holes possible.

I'll dig out a few pictures of my stuff and post shortly.

Isaanaussie

[kandahar]

I mostly make stuff for family and friends. No work permit, so no business. Trying to get enough knowledgeable, dependable Thai help that the wife can run a shop and turn out some product for sale. That leaves me to pursue the hobbies. But yeah, I do try to make sure that everything I build is 100 year product. There is enough junk out there already.

IsaanAussie, do you know about the pipe door/gate hinge that is cut at a 45degree angle and therefore, the door/gate always returns to the closed position by itself? A self latching mechanism is a good idea as well. Very handy where livestock, pets or children are concerned. If you aren't using it now, it might come in handy with some of your future projects.

In everything I build, I try to incorporate one rule- Everything has to do more than the basic thing it is designed for. The beds have small angled backrests that can be raised and used for leaning back on to watch tv or read in bed and can then lowered out of sight between the headboard and mattress when they aren't needed. The larger chairs I mentioned have the moving tables on the end and hold nice potted plants. The fence I built to hide a neighbor's house also has lots of flower-pot holders and hangers built into it. The small garden sink I built has a foot-washing station built into it, complete with massaging brushes and a hand wand for washing the legs. My gardening loving mother-in-law loves it. She only asked for a place to wash her hands. The little well-house that the wife asked for is also a garden tool storage shed with a garden nursery built onto the front of it. The little chairs she asked for to use in the garden have a back that folds down into the front of the chair for a little work table. Perfect for sitting low to the ground and potting her plants. The newer model has a swivel built-in umbrella holder so she can work in the sunny part of the yard if she wishes to. If she doesn't need an umbrella, the holder swings back in underneath the chair, out of the way.

If there is anything I do that you can add to your operation to help bring up the bottom line, feel free to copy the idea. More pics coming soon.

[kandahar]

The first is the gardening chairs. The one with the umbrella was being re-worked at the time of the pic. It was the first I built and I didn't like it so I cut it apart some and re-did it.

The next is one of the wishing wells that flank her orchid display. She wanted me to hang some woven wire from a low tree so she could make an orchid display. I don't think much of hanging woven wire from a tree so I went a little further than what she asked for. The wishing wells are easy and may sell well for you. Small concrete fish tank, wrapped top and bottom with the flexible black water pipe that farmers use. The pipe has a thick piece of wire inside so you can pull it tight, twist the wire and the pipe doesn't move. Then shoot some screws through the Smartwood and into the plastic pipe. The roof thing can be done many ways. I actually made these two so you can turn the handle and wind the little buckets up and down. Kids love to fool with them.

[kandahar]

Okay. The pics aren't displaying in the order that I am loading them. But you can follow along.

The fence is next. The plants are still growing, climbing, maturing. It looks better every month. The small fenced in border area next to the fence is used by the MIL for her some of her herbs, veggies and such.

The next is the bed. Pics taken before the final trim was installed, the headboard was decorated and the bedspreads were bought. Maybe quality beds will sell for you as well.

Last is another sofa type chair.

[IsaanAussie]

Kandahar,

A few of my bits and pieces. Hopefully in order

BBQ table/trolley holds a 15 Kg gas cylinder. Made for a friend who likes eating on the patio short on space for storage so needs folding sides.

Storage Box - Made 4 of these for a client to store his kids downstairs junk in. They also serve as bench seats around his pool table. Dado cut solid teak except for the back and the base which are teak faced ply

Music Stand - To inspire a Thai friend with a passion for classical guitar

Office cabinets - Made for same client as the boxes. These are for him to store work at home. Bottom drawers hold suspension files. Electric outlets fitted for side lamps, solid teak, 5mm bevelled edge glass insert on top (easier to clean the beer glass rings off)

Small solid Teak side table - made loads of these for neighbours in Wong Sawan some years ago when money was tight.

[kandahar]

Wow. Beautiful furniture. Seems that you have a good living available to you if you pursue it and if you can find some help.

I'm no good with wood. Steel is forgiving of mistakes and offers a guy many second chances. I always admire someone who is good with wood. Keep up the nice work, fella.