Most Thai Teachers Fail In Their Own Subjects

[Sturbuc]

- Just think: if everybody would be well-educated - who's to pick up the rice for small money and bad working-conditions or

clean the rich men's houses? Maybe it's a system.

- As i thougt, AIL (algebraic input logic such as mutiplication before addition) is common,

my experience is different. Why shouldn't 2*3+2 not be the same as 2+3*2? (8)

But asking on a teachers meeting some years ago (and stated by my girlfriend); it might be different....

- many hours in the school are off or just used for playing. Much of the knowledge my girlfriend has gotten she took from the TV.

But away from LOS, my experiences at home show that it depends on the people like everywhere. And teaching is more a job for some people than a profession. At the other hand - if teachers were fired at the end of the (school-)year to save the money for the big vacation (2 month) - who do you think will work there on long site?.

Please don't mind about my spelling - English isn't my hobby

What you call “mutiplication (sic) before addition” should be “multiplication has priority over addition”, in other words 2*3+2 = 2+3*2 = (2*3)+2 = 2+(3*2) = 8.

You've got it! ;-)

[blazes]

this is no real surprise to me at all. i teach, i see, i cry

(Oooh, nice new board format!)

84% failure rate in mathematics! That's, like, almost half!

Thank you for injecting some humour into this rather depressing thread.

It will, unfortunately, take at least a generation to change anything. When students are encouraged to ask questions then there will be changes but not until then. Once those children have gone though the education system and finally become teachers themselves then maybe it will be different. IMHO

On the question of questions: It is not so much that the students don't ask questions as that the teachers fail to ask questions that truly challenge students. If you only ask a question that has a "rote" answer, and no other answer is "correct" (according to the curriculum), then a student's mind has no chance to expand and think for herself. This is true of education at all levels in all countries.

In countries like Wales and Ireland (and surely many others) religious education (up to about 1955?) was done by catechism. Questions determined by the Powers That Be, and all answers dependent on the question!

Perhaps that explains why in Ireland there was so little questioning of the priest's fumblings with little boys and girls?

[endure]

- Just think: if everybody would be well-educated - who's to pick up the rice for small money and bad working-conditions or

clean the rich men's houses? Maybe it's a system.

- As i thougt, AIL (algebraic input logic such as mutiplication before addition) is common,

my experience is different. Why shouldn't 2*3+2 not be the same as 2+3*2? (8)

But asking on a teachers meeting some years ago (and stated by my girlfriend); it might be different....

- many hours in the school are off or just used for playing. Much of the knowledge my girlfriend has gotten she took from the TV.

But away from LOS, my experiences at home show that it depends on the people like everywhere. And teaching is more a job for some people than a profession. At the other hand - if teachers were fired at the end of the (school-)year to save the money for the big vacation (2 month) - who do you think will work there on long site?.

Please don't mind about my spelling - English isn't my hobby

What you call “mutiplication (sic) before addition” should be “multiplication has priority over addition”, in other words 2*3+2 = 2+3*2 = (2*3)+2 = 2+(3*2) = 8.

You've got it! ;-)

BODMAS

Brackets

Order

Division

Multiplication

Addition

Subtraction

[blazes]

In many ways the discussion of whether the test is too difficult or the teachers too uneducated. The basic question is why would a Ministry devise a test for their staff that is basically can't be passed? If they did, then that is a reflection on how them and how out of touch they really are.

Teachers in Thailand are, by and large, not the best or brightest, but they are educators and many have gone to school in good faith. They don't stay in the field because of the great pay.

Many, many problems in the education system, I think.

The first paragraph of this contribution tells us that failure to write coherent English is not limited to the poor Thais who are being lambasted in this thread.

[blazes]

Oh my god. No wonder when I asked peeople in Thailand with 13 years of education

and did not recognise such names as Genghis Khan, Adolf Hitler, Dalai Lama and

Gandi. Could not point where Europe was or where the USA was. Could not tell me

a single planet in the Universe.

Most can't point to where Thailand is on a map of the world.

It seems to me that if it ain't Thailand it ain't taught, that's why everyone is so nationalistic and farangs are not important.

Most of the well educated attend schools abroad. Singapore, Uk etc.

It's hard to learn when you're not allowed to question.

I'm considering pulling my daughter out of school.

She's been there two years and still can't read numbers 1-10 if you jumble them around.

She can sing plenty of songs though.

It just seems a waste of money to me...

Excuse me, most people I know could point Thailand out on a map but I think

Europe and USA (Europe being a whiole continent) are more significant than

Thailand and not a fair comparison. Thank you.

Excuse me but I speak the truth. I've asked many ordinary people, children and adults "show me Thailand on this map".

Many have stared at it for a long time and can not show me where.

I think it is a very fair comparison. If I were Thai I would expect to know where in the world my country was.

I have read on Thaivisa of a teacher who brought in a globe to his classroom only to be told be his superiors to remove it.

They probably didn't want to "upset the apple cart" so to speak.

Thank you.

National Geographic once conducted a "poll" whereby Americans were given a blank map of the world. They were asked to fill in on the blank map the names of as many countries as they could.

Something like 34% of Americans put the USA in the blank where BRAZIL is.

[Bruce1]

I would certainly like to know more about the tests before condemning the teachers. I used to sit on an exam review committee and some of the tests we were presented with to review were disasters. They certainly failed the basic rule that you can't test what hasn't been taught, and that tasks have to be achieveable using the material taught.We used to reject some papers outright and require them to be rewritten to test what was actually taught. I suspect some people write tests to impress their bosses with how hard they are, and when most of their students fail they then grade them up to get a majority pass.

[h1lander]

People in glass houses..................! I'm in the UK just now and I despair of the standard of English here in ALL spheres of life. It appears that all the rules of grammar are totally forgotten. Split infinitives, using between instead of amongst, or aggravate instead of annoy, the misuse of the appostrophe; the list is endless. Ask a school kid nowadays about general analysis or parsing and you are looked upon as either cursing or talking a foreign language. Also the amount of Americanisms creeping into everyday usage is worrying as everyone knows the Yanks can't spell and their speech philosophy seems to be 'Why say something in two words when ten will do?!' My favourite hate, which is meaningless to boot, being 'At this moment in time' - urgh! What's wrong with - now?

[moetownblues]

So, the first place to start improving education in Thailand is mandatory continuing professional education for teachers who fail the test of say an hour a day or a few hours per week in their own subjects until they become competent in the subject matter they are teaching and can pass the test. Perhaps, a lesser level of mandatory continuing professional education for all in a variety of subjects.

Nice idea but who is going to teach them? Remember 85% failed that only leave 15% to re educate the rest

[moetownblues]

People in glass houses..................! I'm in the UK just now and I despair of the standard of English here in ALL spheres of life. It appears that all the rules of grammar are totally forgotten. Split infinitives, using between instead of amongst, or aggravate instead of annoy, the misuse of the appostrophe; the list is endless. Ask a school kid nowadays about general analysis or parsing and you are looked upon as either cursing or talking a foreign language. Also the amount of Americanisms creeping into everyday usage is worrying as everyone knows the Yanks can't spell and their speech philosophy seems to be 'Why say something in two words when ten will do?!' My favourite hate, which is meaningless to boot, being 'At this moment in time' - urgh! What's wrong with - now?

Yes I agree Americans are killing the english language and as I have said if these thai english teachers are being taught by Americans then they may very well fail and no fault of thier own. If an American was to sit an english exam in an english school they to may surely fail because they have been taught American. Just look on your microsoft word program you have a choice between the American language and the english language.

[siampolee]

moetownblues.

Yes I agree Americans are killing the english language and as I have said if these thai english teachers are being taught by Americans then they may very well fail and no fault of thier own. If an American was to sit an english exam in an english school they to may surely fail because they have been taught American. (American what ?) )Just look on your microsoft word program you have a choice between the American language and the english language.

Crash tinkle, yet another window gone in the glasshouse !!

If I was writing your end of term report moetownblue I would say 'Slow down and think before you write.''

Edited June 9, 2010 by siampolee

[backsoon]

There is no national curriculum from what I can gather. Worse, the teachers get to write their own course work.

My wife asked me to help her little sister with some home work. When I saw what her teacher had given her, I couldn't believe it.

This is a mid to high priced School in Bangkok. The English exercises made no sense at all.

When I laughed I seemed to offend.

The usual social rules. "Don't complain, its not polite"

The government could easily adopt a national curriculum from an English speaking country. Its not the teachers fault, in my opinion its the governing body.

Ever since I am in Thailand I have seen this problem.

Like many other problems this is not going away.

No standardised National Curriculum.

No qualified teachers.

No salaries based on merits, only on Seniority.

No Questioning of the policies from the Top.

Drill based learning instead of questioning and understanding.

Authoritarian attitudes from top to bottom.

Critical approach is not accepted.

The universal answer to anything is TIT.

The natural result on a National level is ROT.

[scotbeve]

Moderators,

Please note the "American slagfest" in some of the above replies. I can not see what Americanisms (colloquialisms), teaching methods in America, and Americans general IQ has got to do anything with the topic.

[jcartermad]

Most Thai teachers fail in their own subjects

BANGKOK (AFP) -- High school test results in Thailand have revealed a failure rate of more than 80 percent in mathematics, biology and computer studies -- among the teachers.

The failure rates for teachers who took exams in their own subjects were about 88 percent for computer studies, 84 percent for mathematics, 86 percent in biology and 71 percent in physics, the education ministry said.

And almost 95 percent of about 37,500 secondary school directors did not score a pass mark in English and technology, according to the ministry.

The poor results have ignited controversy in Thailand about educational standards.

"Even teachers fail, so how can we raise the quality of students?" Education Minister Chinnaworn Boonyakiat was quoted as saying by the Bangkok Post newspaper.

More than 84,000 teachers and school directors took the exams, the first of their kind.

-- (c) Copyright AFP 2010-06-09

[PBarnfeather]

In my last ten years in The USA I worked with hundreds of teachers (I am not a teacher), now in Thailand my first and lasting impression of the teachers I've met has been that they are in it for the pay and the social status.

Many of the teachers I knew in The USA had a little saying about some of the kids--"The less you know, the more you think you know because you don't know you don't know.

Those teachers considered that a deffinition of the problem they were working to solve. Thai teachers don't seem to understand--or care.

[moetownblues]

Moderators,

Please note the "American slagfest" in some of the above replies. I can not see what Americanisms (colloquialisms), teaching methods in America, and Americans general IQ has got to do anything with the topic.

I am not slagging Americans and have nothing personal against them. My niece is married to one, a very well known muscian and producer. What I am saying is that the American version of the English language is different to that of other English speaking countries. This is a known fact. If thai teachers were taught by an American and then tested by an Englishman then they would fail. You have American English and then you have English.

[ukfool]

blind leading the blind

It would be interesting to do the same exercise in other countries. I wonder how many would do any better?

Apart from Laos, Nigeria & the Moon, every other country I suspect.

My kids have been learning their ABC for over a year, in between 'naps' on their desks.

[Deeral]

Couple of observations......

It seems that a lot f posters seem to think that the most important part of a Thai curriculum should be English Language - Why?

TOEFL- there were some references to TOEFL which is an English yardstick aimed at those wanting to study tertiary education at an English Language University or other institution so hardly a "norm" there.If you want some other ideas look at Toeic or Ielts. But in the end there isn't and can't be a single international standard for English

Slagging of the "Americanisation" of English - this is just a result of knowing nothing about English Language history and development - it simply is not a valid point - many American expressions are actually OLDER than UK English as they still use expressions from 200 years ago that have become obsolete in UK. Furthermore if we looked at the words we ALL use that come from US we'd soon realise that US contribution to modern English is invaluable (what would you say instead of commuter?)

SPELL-CHECK - when it comes to spellcheck on Microsoft or any other software you'll see that the alternatives are not just "US" or "British" but DOZENS of different conventions of English.

I find it strange that when it comes to education "everyone's an expert" - if you go to a Doctor and he tells you to take a pill, you take it...if you garage tells you that your car needs a new part you let them fit it - if your teacher tries to tell you what you ned to study......well everyone has there own theory on education - most hilariously based on what THEY did at school in the 1950s or similar - I've seen one comment about usage of calculators - which shows a total lack of understanding of basic Maths theory -

There are problems with education in Thailand but if you read the posts on this thread you'll see that there are also problems with education of a lot of the posters on this site.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Deeral

[scotbeve]

Moderators,

Please note the "American slagfest" in some of the above replies. I can not see what Americanisms (colloquialisms), teaching methods in America, and Americans general IQ has got to do anything with the topic.

I am not slagging Americans and have nothing personal against them. My niece is married to one, a very well known muscian and producer. What I am saying is that the American version of the English language is different to that of other English speaking countries. This is a known fact. If thai teachers were taught by an American and then tested by an Englishman then they would fail. You have American English and then you have English.

Moe,

I agree with the fact that American English is quite different than UK English. I'm an American and have difficulty understanding American English (of the younger set I might add) as well as: (most of time) N.E. UK English, Glaswegian, Aberdoonian (sometimes), Australian (seldom) and Kiwi (sometimes). What a lot of Brits fail to remember is that they could go down the road from their home 15 mi. only and understand half of what is being said in a local dialect / infliction. True, is it not?

[khaowong1]

blind leading the blind

It would be interesting to do the same exercise in other countries. I wonder how many would do any better?

I hate to break your bubble, OY, but in the U.S., teachers are constantly being tested on their abilities and understanding of the subjects they teach.

[khaowong1]

In my last ten years in The USA I worked with hundreds of teachers (I am not a teacher), now in Thailand my first and lasting impression of the teachers I've met has been that they are in it for the pay and the social status.

Many of the teachers I knew in The USA had a little saying about some of the kids--"The less you know, the more you think you know because you don't know you don't know.

Those teachers considered that a deffinition of the problem they were working to solve. Thai teachers don't seem to understand--or care.

which brings up a point about education in Thailand, as I see and have heard from Thai University Professors. The Thai education system doesn't allow questions from the students. They are expected to go along and not rock the boat. This is a major about face with students in the U.S. In fact, teachers in the U.S. require students to ask questions, it's part of their grading system. It's all about face with the Thai's. If a student asks a question that the teacher doesn't know the answer, loss of face. I personally have helped Thai students in their English lessons, and had the Thai English teacher mark the lesson as incorrect. Even after sending back to the teacher the reference to the correct answer, was still marked as incorrect, mainly because the Thai teacher can never be wrong. go figure..

[Dakhar]

While the teachers may not be of the highest quality, one should also consider the quality of the tests. I've seen Thai language tests in mathematics and physics. These tests are very difficult, and I went to a top 20 grad school for physics. The level of difficulty of the questions is roughly equivalent to 2nd or 3rd year university, some even higher.

My strong suspicion is that the tests themselves are the largest part of problem. These tests are written by individuals holding PhDs, most of whom obtained their post-baccalaureate credentials abroad. They are out of touch with what a high school level course should consist of. The most able Thai teachers tend to set excruciatingly difficult tests for their students, expecting an average of about 30% and then curving the results.

Yes, Yes.... lets lower the bar, that should make it all better!!!!

[junglist]

I have two children at a private school here in Bangkok. Last year my daughter brought to my attention that there were many errors in her on her home work page. When we brought it to the attention of the school the instantly took offence even bringing an attorney to a private meeting. They thought I was looking for a fight when all I wanted was to help them fix their problems.

This shows that it’s not the goverment problem at all. Even private schools have major issues here. It’s the culture and the fear of losing face or status.

[moetownblues]

Moderators,

Please note the "American slagfest" in some of the above replies. I can not see what Americanisms (colloquialisms), teaching methods in America, and Americans general IQ has got to do anything with the topic.

I am not slagging Americans and have nothing personal against them. My niece is married to one, a very well known muscian and producer. What I am saying is that the American version of the English language is different to that of other English speaking countries. This is a known fact. If thai teachers were taught by an American and then tested by an Englishman then they would fail. You have American English and then you have English.

Moe,

I agree with the fact that American English is quite different than UK English. I'm an American and have difficulty understanding American English (of the younger set I might add) as well as: (most of time) N.E. UK English, Glaswegian, Aberdoonian (sometimes), Australian (seldom) and Kiwi (sometimes). What a lot of Brits fail to remember is that they could go down the road from their home 15 mi. only and understand half of what is being said in a local dialect / infliction. True, is it not?

I am Australian so I can't answer your question about local english dialects. The Australian version is that of the English and not American. I was simply defending thai English teachers to a point. If they were intially taught by Americans and then tested by english and vice versa then they would fail. Example my sister is a secondary school english teacher in Australia. She came to stay with us in Chiangmai for 10 days and whilst she was here was approached by a nieghbours child who wanted some help with an english assignment. She obliged helping out with spelling and grammar and a few days later the child came back in tears and had been failed on the assignment. When asked if her teacher was Thai or Farang she said American. So my point is an American English teacher will fail an Australian English teacher because of the differences in the language and again vice versa.

[chainarong]

Unless you get outside HELP, pay bigger, much BIGGER wages, improved working conditions, modern equipment and spend lots of USD not BHT, then you are a lot of time wasters, waisting everyone's time , cut your armed services in half, offload the generals,and afew other hangers on, Thailand must come up to 2010 western world standards ,unless this is achived , then education in Thailand will stagnate and steadly become just as worse as a third world eduction system..

[scotbeve]

Moderators,

Please note the "American slagfest" in some of the above replies. I can not see what Americanisms (colloquialisms), teaching methods in America, and Americans general IQ has got to do anything with the topic.

I am not slagging Americans and have nothing personal against them. My niece is married to one, a very well known muscian and producer. What I am saying is that the American version of the English language is different to that of other English speaking countries. This is a known fact. If thai teachers were taught by an American and then tested by an Englishman then they would fail. You have American English and then you have English.

Point understood and I agree, the differing English curriculum taught within Thailand can be confusing on students and teachers alike. English, by whomever it is spoken, is a colorful and complex language. Apart from gross errors of usage, the academia throughout the world should be more adept to the variances / nuances of the language and make allowances or for that matter give credit to the students whom are more inventive in our ever-increasingly "global community"

Moe,

I agree with the fact that American English is quite different than UK English. I'm an American and have difficulty understanding American English (of the younger set I might add) as well as: (most of time) N.E. UK English, Glaswegian, Aberdoonian (sometimes), Australian (seldom) and Kiwi (sometimes). What a lot of Brits fail to remember is that they could go down the road from their home 15 mi. only and understand half of what is being said in a local dialect / infliction. True, is it not?

I am Australian so I can't answer your question about local english dialects. The Australian version is that of the English and not American. I was simply defending thai English teachers to a point. If they were intially taught by Americans and then tested by english and vice versa then they would fail. Example my sister is a secondary school english teacher in Australia. She came to stay with us in Chiangmai for 10 days and whilst she was here was approached by a nieghbours child who wanted some help with an english assignment. She obliged helping out with spelling and grammar and a few days later the child came back in tears and had been failed on the assignment. When asked if her teacher was Thai or Farang she said American. So my point is an American English teacher will fail an Australian English teacher because of the differences in the language and again vice versa.

[scotbeve]

Unless you get outside HELP, pay bigger, much BIGGER wages, improved working conditions, modern equipment and spend lots of USD not BHT, then you are a lot of time wasters, waisting everyone's time , cut your armed services in half, offload the generals,and afew other hangers on, Thailand must come up to 2010 western world standards ,unless this is achived , then education in Thailand will stagnate and steadly become just as worse as a third world eduction system..

Unfortunately, the military likes the rote learning system... Hup, 2, 3, 4,.... No, not off topic....

[lungdavid]

this is no real surprise to me at all. i teach, i see, i cry

what is this country coming to, when an honest director, can't buy himself a masters degree, or bribe his way to a pass mark in an exam

[chainarong]

Moderators,

Please note the "American slagfest" in some of the above replies. I can not see what Americanisms (colloquialisms), teaching methods in America, and Americans general IQ has got to do anything with the topic.

I am not slagging Americans and have nothing personal against them. My niece is married to one, a very well known muscian and producer. What I am saying is that the American version of the English language is different to that of other English speaking countries. This is a known fact. If thai teachers were taught by an American and then tested by an Englishman then they would fail. You have American English and then you have English.

Moe,

I agree with the fact that American English is quite different than UK English. I'm an American and have difficulty understanding American English (of the younger set I might add) as well as: (most of time) N.E. UK English, Glaswegian, Aberdoonian (sometimes), Australian (seldom) and Kiwi (sometimes). What a lot of Brits fail to remember is that they could go down the road from their home 15 mi. only and understand half of what is being said in a local dialect / infliction. True, is it not?

I am Australian so I can't answer your question about local english dialects. The Australian version is that of the English and not American. I was simply defending thai English teachers to a point. If they were intially taught by Americans and then tested by english and vice versa then they would fail. Example my sister is a secondary school english teacher in Australia. She came to stay with us in Chiangmai for 10 days and whilst she was here was approached by a nieghbours child who wanted some help with an english assignment. She obliged helping out with spelling and grammar and a few days later the child came back in tears and had been failed on the assignment. When asked if her teacher was Thai or Farang she said American. So my point is an American English teacher will fail an Australian English teacher because of the differences in the language and again vice versa.

The problem you have is that most english teachers here in Thai are the six week kind ,work for peanuts, have no degree, they don't pay enough for international teachers to come in and help, the system here is so bad that its not funny, they need every type of teacher not only english , maths, science most all area's are at a very poor level at government schools.

[jcbangkok]

Mandatory English in Thailand Schools ...

What your name?

Where you from?

How long you here?

[lungdavid]

I have just 10 miutes ago finished a lesson on travel. where would you go, mathayom 1/1 supposed to be the brightest, but they cannot even find Thailand on a world map, it's this stupid system needs a rocket through the entire management of the education system,[ no Thai student fails, even if you have to fudge the scores to make it so] ridiculous