แต้จิ๋ว Taechio

[StChris]

Can anybody speak แต้จิ๋ว? I haven't been able to find much info on the net, so maybe someone here might be able to answer some questions.

1. Roughly what percentage of people in Bangkok can speak at least a little bit? I read somewhere that at around 1900 at least 50 percent of the population were of Chinese origin, and would send their kids to Chinese language schools, but I know there where serious efforts by the government to interegrate them into Thai society later on, so maybe the figure is much lower than this today.

2. How close is it to Mandarin? My experience with other Chinese "dialects" would make me think no...

3. Are there any internet sites or books that teach it (I can read Thai)?

4. Does it use the hanzi characters, and what percentage of people who can speak it can read or write.

5. What would the likely reaction be to a farang speaking it? Everyone on this forum will know how being able to say anything beyond hello in Thai will often result in undeserved plaudits, but maybe แต้จิ๋ว is considered a more private, family thing.

I ask because I'm living in Bangkok learning Thai and Chinese at the moment, and I've had Thai's come up and speak to me when they've seen me writing Chinese. I've yet to meet one who can say more than ni hao in Mandarin, but have meet a few who claim to speak แต้จิ๋ว. I've obviously got my hands full language wise right now, but might like to learn a few basic phrases, like I do with Laos/Issan.

Thanks for any help.

[mikenyork]

I have limited knowledge, but will share what I think I know. Taechiw was widely spoken hear 40 years ago. One normally heard only Taechiw when staff in the small retail stores of the time communicated with each other. It was widely believed by Thais that there was a standard "Thai" price for things and a different, lower price for Taechiw. Newspaper classifieds for sales jobs normally specified that the successful candidate must speak Taechiw. I had, at that time, several friends/colleagues who spoke Mandarin and they found it basically useless in Thailand.

I think some brand of Taechiw (I would suspect heavily mixed with Thai borrowed words) is still spoken pretty widely in Chinatown (Yaowarad). But these days when I hear even obviously 100% (Thai born) Chinese talking to each other, even those who are in their 50's, it is unusual to hear them speaking anything but Thai. I'm not saying it's a dead language in Thailand, but I do think it is dieing. Chinese friends upcountry where I lived for a few years were still sending their kids to Chinese school, but it was to learn Mandarin, not Taechiw. Taechiw does use Chinese characters to write. I think most Taechiw speakers who can go beyond just "home language" use of the language can read to some extent.

That doesn't answer all your questions. I don't speak more than 10 words of Taechiw myself, so don't know what that language community's response to foreigners' attempts to speak the language would be. As a Thai speaker I have certainly been the recipient of more than my share of undeserved praise. One of my pet peeves about Thais is that they will praise even my worst attempts to speak their language, but will hasten to assure me that they themselves speak very little English (often this assurance is given in perfectly acceptable English and in my early days of speaking Thai, certainly better English than the Thai I was speaking. Why they have this tremendous inferiority complex about my language is one of many, many, many mysteries of this place.)

[sigeena]

Teochew is also spoken in Singapore and Malaysia as well. In both places, it also faces the end of life, as most of the younger generation do not use it as frequently as before. Teochew is not mutually intelligible with Mandarin. Primarily, because Mandarin is a northern dialect whereas Teochew is a southern dialect. Teochew is closer to Hokkien, and these 2 dialects are almost 70-80% mutually intelligible.

Teochew is probably still taught in Thailand, but you'll need to find a Clan Clubhouse of sorts to find some kind of teaching. I doubt they'll use the current Simplified Script to teach Teochew, since most of the literature will probably be in Traditional Script. Using Thai to learn Teochew will only learn the superficial aspects of Teochew, since Teochew has about ?6? tones. And not all the consonants will be transmitted 100%.

Most of Teochew can be heard in Yaowaraj and it's also beginning to be pretty common to hear the traders there speak in Mandarin as well. I believe that Bangkok is seeing a growing trend of Chinese tourists from mainland China in the past 5 years.

In the past (40's-60's), most of the language was transmitted orally. Only a few learned ones, or traders, would be able to read and write. These learned ones would then be able to make a living of sorts reading and writing letters. I doubt many Thais are able to speak Teochew comprehensively. The older generation yes, but the current one less likely.

I doubt its relative use in the modern world.

Wiki

There's a number of external links at the end of the wiki page which should be useful.

[singa-traz]

Why not wake up early one day and go to Lumpuni park.

Befriend one of the group doing Taichi, and I'm sure you will find someone interested to speak to you.

With my in-laws, Chinese (Taechew/Hakka) is spoken only by the older generation ... when they don't want their children or me to understand.

In other families, Chinese would be spoken as first language.

Mandarin is learned by the younger generation, but at school.

[singa-traz]

Why not wake up early one day and go to Lumpuni park.

Befriend one of the group doing Taichi, and I'm sure you will find someone interested to speak to you.

With my in-laws, Chinese (Taechew/Hakka) is spoken only by the older generation ... when they don't want their children or me to understand.

In other families, Chinese would be spoken as first language.

Mandarin is learned by the younger generation, but at school.

--- Double Post --- ???

Edited June 14, 2010 by singa-traz

[anchan42]

1. It depends on which area you are talking about. If you go to yaowaratch, almost all the shop owner will be able to speak some. For the whole of Bangkok I would say about 10-20 percent.

2. Not very much. It got its own vocab, grammar, tones and also tone sandi rules. Some of the vocabs are also different between mainland Teochew and Thailand Teochew.

3. I think most of the resources on the internet use English or Mandarin as a medium.

4. They use traditional characters. Simplified characters are some time looked down at. If you go to a Chinese temple, there is a good chance you will meet someone who can read and write (beautifully I might add).

5. Depends on the person you are speaking too. I would be careful on this one. I would not want old grumpy Chinese lady hit me with a fish.

“have meet a few who claim to speak แต้จิ๋ว“ claim is a claim until proven otherwise.

[StChris]

Thanks for all the info.

I get embarrassed by the excessive praise you get when you speak even a little Thai as well. What's the most polite answer when someone says how well you speak? I used to just say thanks, but since learning Chinese I've tried the self deprecating way expected in China. After trying both ways, I think just saying thaks is best. I've heard Japanese learners complain that you very seldom receive any praise or encouragement when trying to speak Japanese in Japan, but it sounds like a nice situation to me.

I think the best way would be to just pick up words from random strangers whenever the oportunity arises. I met a Thai the other day who claimed to be able to speak a little, but when I asked him how to say hello, he didn't know! I've learned over the past year to take anyones claim to be able to speak another language with deep suspicion unless proven otherwise.

Can anyone recommend any temples where I can learn Chinese caligraphy? While it's true that I've been learning simplified characters, the traditional ones aren't that different, and I've been in exchanging emails with a Taiwanese friend, where she uses traditional and I simplified, without any difficulty. I actually find reading and writing in Chinese much easier than Thai, so long as you use the right method of using your imagination to piece the characters together (no horrible Pali and Sanskrit words to spell!).

While on the subject, is there a place/temple where I can learn Thai calligraphy? My handwriting's pretty neat, certainly neater than the illegible scrawl of most Thais (and my terrible English handwriting), but I think the Thai letters are really beautiful and would like try writing them with ink and brush.

[SoftWater]

While on the subject, is there a place/temple where I can learn Thai calligraphy? My handwriting's pretty neat, certainly neater than the illegible scrawl of most Thais (and my terrible English handwriting), but I think the Thai letters are really beautiful and would like try writing them with ink and brush.

I spent years working on my Thai handwriting, tracing out all those characters perfectly in the Thai kiddies schoolbooks. When I went to study Thai at a school the teacher even complemented me on how neat my Thai writing was (my English handwriting, by the way, is almost illegible!). I have to say that nowadays though, I NEVER write Thai by hand (I always type) out of embarrassment. Even my four and a half-year old kid laughs at my Thai handwriting....

It seems that the difference between the way Thai kids are taught and the way Thais actually write the letters is akin to the difference between non-joined up and joined-up writing in English - i.e., the first is only done by babies. There are some conventions, but after working so hard to read Thai (and write) I have lost the interest in learning hand-written Thai. So although I can read printed Thai (even with crazy fonts) quite well (relatively...), whenever my son's teachers scrawl notes in his schoolbook, I have to get my wife to spell them out for me. Drives me mad!

Edited June 14, 2010 by SoftWater

[SoftWater]

What's the most polite answer when someone says how well you speak? I used to just say thanks, but since learning Chinese I've tried the self deprecating way expected in China. After trying both ways, I think just saying thaks is best.

Whenever I get told พูดไทยเก่ง I always reply, with feeling, ไม่เก่งหร็อก. This seems to simultaneously satisfy both the Thai requirement for humility in the face of praise and my own need to express irritation at being patronised by directly contradicting the speaker.

[StChris]

I like drawing too, so perhaps that's why I like handwriting Thai and Chinese so much. It's such a shame that Thai peole turn a beatiful alphabet into such an ugly scrawl! Maybe the latin alphabet looks beautiful too to those not used to it though.

From the very beginning of learning Chinese I learned the importance of deflecting praise. We're taught to be modest in Britain too, so this comes naturally. I've never read anything about how to deal with praise in Thai culture, but whenever I tried to say something like "there's so much more I need to learn", it's seemed as if I've popped their enthusiasm bubble and I've felt quite bad.

[anchan42]

Snow white in Teochew.

[RickBradford]

What's the most polite answer when someone says how well you speak?

Vietnamese has a very useful phrase in this situation -- 'không dám đâu', literally 'not dare [to accept the compliment] at all'. Showing knowledge of this colloquial phrase leads to even more praise for your language skills.

I've often wished Thai had a similar phrase.

[StChris]

I can't believe that I didn;t think of youtube before! Here's a good video:

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[mangkorn]

What's the most polite answer when someone says how well you speak? I used to just say thanks, but since learning Chinese I've tried the self deprecating way expected in China. After trying both ways, I think just saying thaks is best.

Whenever I get told พูดไทยเก่ง I always reply, with feeling, ไม่เก่งหร็อก. This seems to simultaneously satisfy both the Thai requirement for humility in the face of praise and my own need to express irritation at being patronised by directly contradicting the speaker.

"พูดไม่ค่อยเก่งแต่รักหมดใจ..."

In my experience/observation, พูดไทยเก่ง is rote: perhaps appreciative, but not a sincere judgement.

If one does speak Thai very well, the reaction will almost always be พูดไทยชัด(เลย)

เก่ง may or may not be true - and very often is not. On the other hand, ชัด must be earned.

Something to shoot for...

พูดคล่อง is much rarer, and thus may be the highest compliment.

Softwater's suggestion for deflecting praise is appropriate. Humility is important. In a casual situation, one might try a self-effacing quip, if you can think of a good one - and are sure that it will be acceptable. (The lyric above used to be good for laughs, at least when the song was popular...)

Edited June 16, 2010 by mangkorn

[bangkokburning]

I just met my girlfriends mother yesterday (her aunties and uncle). She speaks Teochew. Now residing in Bangkok, her and husband came from Issarn fifty years ago. She gave me a sample while her sisters rolled their eyes. She is 62. I will see the family next week, if you have a question about the language perhaps I can remember to ask. Please pm.

[StChris]

Thanks for the offer bangkokburning, but I think my curiosity is sated for now, I don't have any more specific questions.

It's definitely true about พูดไทยเก่ง and พูดไทยชัด(เลย). I remember I used to get the former, but some time ago it switched to the later. I have to admit though that the first time I got พูดไทยชัด(เลย) I didn't actually know what ชัด meant, but assumed it was something positive, so kept my mouth shut, so it was still an undeserved compliment, though I suppose it was directed at my pronounciation and not my vocab.