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[BigBikeBKK]

24 year old harley rider gunned down by cop-

Ottawa Hills officer's trial begins, dash cam vid shown | Video | 13abc.com

Unbelievable...

[Garry]

Saw that on one of my bike forums. Yeah, that's pretty well unbelievable what happened. The guy was just sitting there. Makes one wonder whether the cop discharged the weapon accidently. I suppsoe it will come out in the wash, but doesn't help the dude in the wheelchair.

[HDRIDER]

Hi

Its US what do you expect

[ScubaBuddha]

Officer White was convicted of felonious assault with a firearm and may get up to 11 years. His sentencing hearing is tomorrow. Expect the judge to give the absolute minimum.

Often when I see these and other police brutality or police shooting videos, I can articulate some possible explanation for the officers actions, what the officer may have been thinking, having been in numerous similar situations as a cop the states. But this one completely baffles me. A agree the most likely explanation is an AD, or accidental discharge, but the problem with that is, as far as I can tell, there was no cause to have a gun drawn in the first place. The suspect/victim was being completely cooperative. And when the patrol cars siren is active, as it appears to be, there is absolutely no way the biker can hear any commands given by the officer.

After watching the video several times, and reading various accounts of what happened, I can't understand why the officers defense team chose to go the "justified shooting" route especially when, as far as I can tell, no prior criminal history was known to the officer at the time of the shooting which might at least explain why the officer had his gun out.

According to the video, there is just a 3 second edit during the time the officer has his lights and siren activated, so the bikers didn't appear to be running from him, which, if they were, the officer drawing his sidearm is standard practice.

AD cases always surprise be when I consider under what conditions officers are and aren't allowed to draw their sidearms, the fact that the trigger finger remains outside the trigger guard straight along the frame, until you are ready to engage your target, and the gun is to be held at a low ready position and not brought up to target until you are ready to fire.

My guess is he wasn't a very good cop, panicked and flipped out. I know California cops generally consider cops from other states trained to a lessor level. One article said the officer was a part time (reserve?) cop and also a dispatcher. A few things indicate this to me. He left his siren on ( or maybe it is the other cars siren, hard to tell). Had he followed his training he would have turned it off so the suspect can hear his commands. And look at how he shoots, holsters his weapon, then draws it again. He looked very confused.

You mix guns and error prone irrational humans, and sometimes that's the only explanation, like the BART cop (who was known by some former colleagues of mine) that shot the black guy in the back when he was on the ground.

Does anyone remember the story RTP traffic officer that shot motorcyclist in the back for no reason other than they didn't stop at the checkpoint?

[ScubaBuddha]

Thats why in the UK they don't want the ordinary cop to carry arms. Specialist officers carry arms and are called in for problem situations where felons have arms, not for traffic stops. BUT USA, all that right to carry arms shit, so every cop is jumpy, we've moved on since that was written, time for change..

I completely agree with you. A handgun is made for one thing. Killing human beings. I love shooting, but I would have gladly given up that right if we had sensible policies.

I never understood why on some police cars, especially in the south, you see NRA stickers. There really is no rational position for a gun toting public that holds up in debate. There is the position which advocates teaching gun safety to all, and that a gun carrying population has less crime, but that's not the only statistic with which to measure success.

The legally owned guns very often get stolen and used later in a crime, and they go off accidentally and kill children. Assuming they are safely locked doesn't provide you foolproof protection from it getting in the wrong hands. Throughout my childhood I always knew exactly where my Dad kept his guns and exactly where the keys were to get to them.

It's been shown that statistically you are several times more likely to be shot by your own weapon than use it to defend yourself. They simply give the owner a false sense of security. I sure wish the founding fathers could have made the second amendment a bit clearer.

[Kf6vci]

I've seen enough cop videos - sometimes they switch off the camera and next, some woman is bleeding on the floor etc. The guy deserves to be jailed for decades. Murdering b@stard!

[neverdie]

I've seen enough cop videos - sometimes they switch off the camera and next, some woman is bleeding on the floor etc. The guy deserves to be jailed for decades. Murdering b@stard!

Murder is when someone dies. The victim is still alive.

[neverdie]

After watching the video several times, and reading various accounts of what happened, I can't understand why the officers defense team chose to go the "justified shooting" route especially when, as far as I can tell, no prior criminal history was known to the officer at the time of the shooting which might at least explain why the officer had his gun out.

Sorry SB, How did you tell this?

There was also a fair bit happening in that ICV, interesting that the Police had a second car there for the vehicle stop & of course I am guessing that did not happen by chance. Makes me wonder what happened prior to all of this & what warnings that may have been attached to either of those bikes, their riders or perhaps an incident that had just happened.

Also SB, I am a little surprised at some of what you say. Having said that I am not suggesting that I feel the shooting is justified but I did stuggle toi work out what the rider was doing with his right arm/hand & secondly the shooting officers view of what he was doing with that right hand would of been just slightly different to the view of the camera just based on their standing positions.

Its a fine line to walk, the one between shooting someone or getting shot. Obviously its hard to get shot if the POI doesnt have a firearm. Doh!

[shark4thailand]

Officer White was convicted of felonious assault with a firearm and may get up to 11 years. His sentencing hearing is tomorrow. Expect the judge to give the absolute minimum.

Often when I see these and other police brutality or police shooting videos, I can articulate some possible explanation for the officers actions, what the officer may have been thinking, having been in numerous similar situations as a cop the states. But this one completely baffles me. A agree the most likely explanation is an AD, or accidental discharge, but the problem with that is, as far as I can tell, there was no cause to have a gun drawn in the first place. The suspect/victim was being completely cooperative. And when the patrol cars siren is active, as it appears to be, there is absolutely no way the biker can hear any commands given by the officer.

After watching the video several times, and reading various accounts of what happened, I can't understand why the officers defense team chose to go the "justified shooting" route especially when, as far as I can tell, no prior criminal history was known to the officer at the time of the shooting which might at least explain why the officer had his gun out.

According to the video, there is just a 3 second edit during the time the officer has his lights and siren activated, so the bikers didn't appear to be running from him, which, if they were, the officer drawing his sidearm is standard practice.

AD cases always surprise be when I consider under what conditions officers are and aren't allowed to draw their sidearms, the fact that the trigger finger remains outside the trigger guard straight along the frame, until you are ready to engage your target, and the gun is to be held at a low ready position and not brought up to target until you are ready to fire.

My guess is he wasn't a very good cop, panicked and flipped out. I know California cops generally consider cops from other states trained to a lessor level. One article said the officer was a part time (reserve?) cop and also a dispatcher. A few things indicate this to me. He left his siren on ( or maybe it is the other cars siren, hard to tell). Had he followed his training he would have turned it off so the suspect can hear his commands. And look at how he shoots, holsters his weapon, then draws it again. He looked very confused.

You mix guns and error prone irrational humans, and sometimes that's the only explanation, like the BART cop (who was known by some former colleagues of mine) that shot the black guy in the back when he was on the ground.

Does anyone remember the story RTP traffic officer that shot motorcyclist in the back for no reason other than they didn't stop at the checkpoint?

unbelievable ! it looks like scary !

[ScubaBuddha]

Update: Officer White was sentenced yesterday to the maximum of 10 years. He posted a 100,000 bond and will remain out of custody while he appeals the courts decision.

toledoblade.com -- The Blade ~ Toledo Ohio

Ottawa Hills Cop gets 10 years

After watching the video several times, and reading various accounts of what happened, I can't understand why the officers defense team chose to go the "justified shooting" route especially when, as far as I can tell, no prior criminal history was known to the officer at the time of the shooting which might at least explain why the officer had his gun out.

Sorry SB, How did you tell this?

I said, "as far as I can tell", which is far from a definitive statement. If the information coming back from dispatch or information he was able to find on his MDT (mobile display terminal) if he had one was telling him these were wanted, armed felons, for example, then it would at least explain having his weapon drawn and anticipating greater danger and resistance than one would normally find on a regular vehicle stop. It still wouldn't explain the shooting. None of the articles I read or videos I watched mentioned the officer was made aware of any prior history. This would certainly been mentioned by Whites attorney and then by the media had it been the case.

There was also a fair bit happening in that ICV, interesting that the Police had a second car there for the vehicle stop & of course I am guessing that did not happen by chance. Makes me wonder what happened prior to all of this & what warnings that may have been attached to either of those bikes, their riders or perhaps an incident that had just happened.

Also SB, I am a little surprised at some of what you say. Having said that I am not suggesting that I feel the shooting is justified but I did stuggle toi work out what the rider was doing with his right arm/hand & secondly the shooting officers view of what he was doing with that right hand would of been just slightly different to the view of the camera just based on their standing positions.

Its a fine line to walk, the one between shooting someone or getting shot. Obviously its hard to get shot if the POI doesnt have a firearm. Doh!

Exactly what bit surprised you ND?

The POI of the camera is almost the same as the officers. I think it's pretty clear the victim was simply turning to look at the officer. When you turn your body, your arms turn too.

One thing l learnt in police firearm training was that you never EVER point a gun directly at someone unless you intended to fire,

in their direction (the ground) but not at them.

What comes to mind here, those who fine tune their gun to make it easier and more accurate to use, in other words less trigger effort, great for target shooting, done it myself, the down side is premature discharge, seen it happen.

Police firearms should be stock factory items. Not saying this is what happened but a possibility.

Those are good points. I mention that first point above as well. And you are right about officers adjusting the trigger pressure making it and easier pull.

In the end, these things are going to happen from time to time when you have newish and part time officer in a small village town in a state known for it's minimal training of it's police officers.

Edited June 23, 2010 by ScubaBuddha

[BigBikeBKK]

[ScubaBuddha]

He was just looking for what every Sea Lion wants, a tight Seal.

[neverdie]

After watching the video several times, and reading various accounts of what happened, I can't understand why the officers defense team chose to go the "justified shooting" route especially when, as far as I can tell, no prior criminal history was known to the officer at the time of the shooting which might at least explain why the officer had his gun out.

Sorry SB, How did you tell this?

There was also a fair bit happening in that ICV, interesting that the Police had a second car there for the vehicle stop & of course I am guessing that did not happen by chance. Makes me wonder what happened prior to all of this & what warnings that may have been attached to either of those bikes, their riders or perhaps an incident that had just happened.

Also SB, I am a little surprised at some of what you say. Having said that I am not suggesting that I feel the shooting is justified but I did stuggle toi work out what the rider was doing with his right arm/hand & secondly the shooting officers view of what he was doing with that right hand would of been just slightly different to the view of the camera just based on their standing positions.

Its a fine line to walk, the one between shooting someone or getting shot. Obviously its hard to get shot if the POI doesnt have a firearm. Doh!

One thing l learnt in police firearm training was that you never EVER point a gun directly at someone unless you intended to fire,

in their direction (the ground) but not at them.

What comes to mind here, those who fine tune their gun to make it easier and more accurate to use, in other words less trigger effort, great for target shooting, done it myself, the down side is premature discharge, seen it happen.

Police firearms should be stock factory items. Not saying this is what happened but a possibility.

I don't know about his department but the Police in Australia don't modify their own triggers, you would get in no end of strife for doing that. Modern Semi's generally have light trig pressures in any case, its not like my old trusty Smith & Wesson .38special (revolver) which had a trigger pressure of 4000 pounds or something.

[neverdie]

Exactly what bit surprised you ND?

The POI of the camera is almost the same as the officers. I think it's pretty clear the victim was simply turning to look at the officer. When you turn your body, your arms turn too.

I disagree. The ICV cameras are generally mounted in the centre of the windscreen & the officer is out of his vehicle & possibly somewhere around an open door length (perhaps half) further left again. All I am saying in that is the officers view of the right hand of the bike rider would have been different.

The bit that surprised me is that you seemed to discount the possibility that the officer had some prior knowledge about the rider (crim history supplied by either the dispatch or whatever) OR perhaps there had been warnings given from the vehicles registration information about a firearm.

ANYWAY, that all aside, there was NO firearm & his finger is suppose to remain off the trigger until he is ready to fire, so he always had a problem coming with this one, I feel.

Anyhows, it was strange behaviour by the bikers, especially the one that rides off and over the kerb & that second Police car wasnt there by mistake, so perhaps there is a little more to this vid than meets the eye. So sad, too bad!

[Fishenough]

Found no mention of drugs use by officer White, as SB stated he appears unsure and also his personal balance seems quite poor in that situation. Guess his uncertainty could have been a result of immediately realizing he'd just made a massive mistake no? Can't help but wonder if a blood test was preform on the officer soon after the shooting.

Twenty five years ago, this month, two friends and I on a California road trip were pulled over by two state trooper whom 'drew' on us. Was a case of mistaken identity and us driving a vehicle matching one involved in a recent shooting and armed robbery. Looking down the business end of a revolver, seeing four rounds in the chambers, certainly installs good behavior and obedience to the officers. Was the closest I ever came to ruining a pair of underwear.

[neverdie]

Found no mention of drugs use by officer White, as SB stated he appears unsure and also his personal balance seems quite poor in that situation. Guess his uncertainty could have been a result of immediately realizing he'd just made a massive mistake no? Can't help but wonder if a blood test was preform on the officer soon after the shooting.

Again I can't speak for the Americans but would imagine they would be the same as us. When a Police Shooting takes place in Oz, its declared a 'Critical Incident' & is normally investigated by a Commissioned Officer with various other groups such as Internal Affairs & so forth getting involved. In all these incidents its mandatory for blood samples to be taken.

I'm guessing the chances he was tested were high.

Fairly ordinary incident, but if you ride a hardly rideable, you're fair game ! Just kidding

[Fishenough]

Fairly ordinary incident, but if you ride a hardly rideable, you're fair game ! Just kidding

[BigBikeBKK]

Fairly ordinary incident, but if you ride a hardly rideable, you're fair game ! Just kidding

LMAO!

WOOT!

[ScubaBuddha]

....Can't help but wonder if a blood test was preform on the officer soon after the shooting.

Yes it is standard.

I had one friend of mine shoot and kill someone at the same department I worked for. He was shitting bricks during the inquiry, but it was ruled a clean shoot, and thus the death actually gets ruled as "accidental".

The bit that surprised me is that you seemed to discount the possibility that the officer had some prior knowledge about the rider (crim history supplied by either the dispatch or whatever) OR perhaps there had been warnings given from the vehicles registration information about a firearm.

Nope. Didn't discount it all. I said "as far as I could tell". I merely stated that there was no mention of it in any report I saw. That is critical information for the defense. Again, had there been something to justify the officer having his gun drawn, it surely would have been mentioned.

Edited June 28, 2010 by ScubaBuddha