"As Soon As You Opened Your Mouth They Probably Knew Where You Learnt Your Thai From"

[StChris]

I've read this (I've paraphrased) a few times in the forums, normally directed at someone who's spoken thai and got a negative or indifferent reaction, the inference being that they spoke bar language and so were looked down upon. The latest one was from I thread about talking to Thai people outside of Thailand (the farang was almost ignored by the Thai girls he tried to speak with) and I remember another where someone made fun of the inappropriate Thai used by farangs at the immigration office. There's a quote from George Bernard Shaw about English that goes like this: "It is impossible for an Englishman to open his mouth without making some other Englishman hate or despise him." Although I think it's less true now than it was then, it's still much more then case than in America and Australia.

Do you think the same could be said of Thai people? And how would they know where a farang learnt from, is it from the accent or from the words they use (I would guess it's from the words as I think the accent is the hardest bit to imitate)?

I always speak Issan/Lao with food vendors in Bangkok if it's obviousthey're from that region, but speak central Thai with everyone else - never got anything but a good reaction.

[Murf]

Its the vocab that some people use that gives them away... Like you said, i don't think it will accent.

The biggest giveaway i have ever heard is dop salop sa lai ... Pure Bar Girl Talk.

[bhoydy]

I think it's definitely from the words they use, for example someone could speak southern Thai dialect but by using words that weren't necessarily offensive would therefore not cause offense. The other way about would also be likely to cause the opposite reaction. It's the same in English, someone could have a really strong Glaswegian accent but if they're not using any strong language they're unlikely to offend others.

Assuming the listeners can understand that is.

[GarryP]

Actually, you will find that a number of foreigners speak central Thai but with the accent of the area in which they live. For example, a foreigner who speaks Thai and has spent the last 20 years in Supan, will, 9 times out of 100, speak with a Supan accent. Also, some of their vocabulary will be regional. Other Thais will pick up on the accent.

Other than that, there is the baby talk mixed with gutter Thai. Yes, when someone opens their mouth others will know in what circles they move. But like someone has pointed out, there are times and places when it is fine to switch the form used, apart from gutter Thai, which there is no call for.

I do not speak the same way to the staff where I work as I speak to my boss, and I do not speak the same way to a Soi motorcycle taxi as I speak to staff.

[StChris]

What does "dop salop sa lai" mean, is it something about slapping someone until their dizzy?

I think it happens in reverse too. I was speaking to a Thai girl a couple of weeks ago and she was all f*cking this, f*cking that, sh*t, b*llocks, and she wasn't even angry, just speaking normally! Another time I was asked: "Do you want another drink or what?" by an otherwise polite waitress, with the "or what" bit said with a perfect cockney accent. She said she had some English friends, but I think it might also come from the Thai รึเปล่า, which doesn't seem to have the same kind of impatient feeling associated with it.

[sbk]

I cannot speak Central Thai and have a very strong South Thai accent to my Thai and get nothing but polite behavior after the intial astonishment wears off. But I do not use rude words, and while my Thai is quite colloquial I have never had anyone offended by it. (unless, of course, I mean to be offensive which I rarely if ever do)

[sarahsbloke]

What does "dop salop sa lai" mean, is it something about slapping someone until their dizzy?

Slap you until you fall unconcious

Only spoken by bar girls and men who hang out with bar girls

Also avoid saying Teerak (use Gew Dta) and never ever understand the hoi jokes.

Edited June 21, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[tombkk]

Actually, you will find that a number of foreigners speak central Thai but with the accent of the area in which they live. For example, a foreigner who speaks Thai and has spent the last 20 years in Supan, will, 9 times out of 100, speak with a Supan accent. Also, some of their vocabulary will be regional. Other Thais will pick up on the accent.

Other than that, there is the baby talk mixed with gutter Thai. Yes, when someone opens their mouth others will know in what circles they move. But like someone has pointed out, there are times and places when it is fine to switch the form used, apart from gutter Thai, which there is no call for.

I do not speak the same way to the staff where I work as I speak to my boss, and I do not speak the same way to a Soi motorcycle taxi as I speak to staff.

Correct. Thai language has several layers of politeness.

I'm not an expert on other languages, but I think Japanese is the only other one that does, and even much more complex than Thai.

[tombkk]

I cannot speak Central Thai and have a very strong South Thai accent to my Thai and get nothing but polite behavior after the intial astonishment wears off. But I do not use rude words, and while my Thai is quite colloquial I have never had anyone offended by it. (unless, of course, I mean to be offensive which I rarely if ever do)

It's not whether you speak central/northern/etc Thai, but the vocabulary you use. Regardlessof the regional tones/dialects/words, there is always the difference in using politie or not so polite vocabulary. Thai people know this very well.

Bar girls, and the farangs who learn Thai from them, are not usually experts in the subtle differences. And thus, the title of this topic is probably true.

I study for myh PhD in a Thai-language program. I deal with government employees in their language, both in my studies and my business. I have never had a problem. They probably know (or feel) where I learned my Thai from.

I trust this closes this thread.

[Peppy]

I think it happens in reverse too. I was speaking to a Thai girl a couple of weeks ago and she was all f*cking this, f*cking that, sh*t, b*llocks, and she wasn't even angry, just speaking normally! Another time I was asked: "Do you want another drink or what?" by an otherwise polite waitress, with the "or what" bit said with a perfect cockney accent.

It's not whether you speak central/northern/etc Thai, but the vocabulary you use. Regardlessof the regional tones/dialects/words, there is always the difference in using politie or not so polite vocabulary. Thai people know this very well.

Bar girls, and the farangs who learn Thai from them, are not usually experts in the subtle differences. And thus, the title of this topic is probably true.

StChris, great anecdote. Tombkk, agree completely.

I don't think learning a language from prostitutes is a recommended way to become fluent in the nuances of polite and civil speech in any language anywhere in the world. I wonder if the folks who think they can pick up Thai in Nana Plaza or on Walking Street have ever thought of studying French with hookers in Parisian crack dens.

Another point that I don't think has been made so far is that without formal study of grammar rules, clear understanding of vocabulary, and frequent error correction, most people will end up learning a version of whatever language they're trying to learn that is rather unintelligible to those unaccustomed to hearing their language mangled. When most bar girls (and other Thais who've learned English in informal environments) move away from fixed English phrases, to tell a story or give an explanation for example, the result is usually a muddle of badly-pronounced words that can barely be called English. The same happens with foreigners who learn their Thai in bars, and it's no wonder that people outside of the tourist/entertainment districts have little tolerance for listening to it.

[richard_smith237]

I believe one of the comments I made in the initial thread to which the Op was referring was that people can tell where we have learnt our Thai.

Years ago when I visited Bangkok with friends I overheard a Thai girl in English comment that my friend speaks Thai like a bar Girl…

I decided to be very careful how much and from where I have picked up phrases and terminology.

While my Thai is far from satisfactory there are phrases and tones I can pick out which come across as rather crass and crude.

As an example… How many people will refer to their wives as their 'Mia' rather than the more respectable term 'Phanrayah' ?

To answer the Op. I believe the majority of Thai's can identify the origins or base of or our linguistic influences in Thailand.

[sarahsbloke]

Mia/Pua is usually used by working class Thais and lo-so, not exclusive to bar girls.

I always use Panrayaa/Samee as I consider myself very hi-so, the Thais around me understand but don't use the words themselves.

White people (being rich and well educated) should always use the hi-so words.

Edited June 22, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[bhoydy]

Mia/Pua is usually used by working class Thais and lo-so, not exclusive to bar girls.

I always use Panrayaa/Samee as I consider myself very hi-so, the Thais around me understand but don't use the words themselves.

White people (being rich and well educated) should always use the hi-so words.

You seem to be generalising there, white people are not automatically rich and well educated. I am white but i am by no means rich, i am well educated by Thai standards but education does not necessarily make someone intelligent. Giving yourself the hi-so accolade i must congratulate you on attaining this level as you clearly thrive in this self-empowerment, but perhaps as a previous poster mentioned it is better to use language appropriate to the situation. If everyone around you is using colloquial Thai and your are using formal Thai maybe you are coming across as looking down on the people around you without even knowing it.

PS These words are not hi-so, teachers in my my school would use them because they are part of the formal language and they are far from hi-so, like the head of the English department in his 15 year old Toyota Corolla.

Edited June 22, 2010 by bhoydy

[gotglue]

Mia/Pua is usually used by working class Thais and lo-so, not exclusive to bar girls.

I always use Panrayaa/Samee as I consider myself very hi-so, the Thais around me understand but don't use the words themselves.

White people (being rich and well educated) should always use the hi-so words.

You need to wake up mate......or are you just taking the pi_s?

Edited June 22, 2010 by gotglue

[Murf]

You need to wake up mate......or are you just taking the pi_s?

I some how doubt it...

[sbk]

Oh, guess I misunderstood the OP then, since he talked about regional dialects and accents I just assumed he meant that rather than learning one's Thai in a bar. Being a woman, I learned my Thai mainly from other Thai women; neighbors, sisters in law, etc. So, in that sense, then I guess you can retract my comment since I have no sense of what "bar Thai" is and have never learned those words and therefor, wouldn't be using them.

[Tod Daniels]

Mia/Pua is usually used by working class Thais and lo-so, not exclusive to bar girls.

I always use Panrayaa/Samee as I consider myself very hi-so, the Thais around me understand but don't use the words themselves.

White people (being rich and well educated) should always use the hi-so words.

The above bits of insight into the thai language come from a poster who advocates forgoing the tones and speaking thai in a monotone. The same poster who then wonders why thai even a thai food vendor has a problem understanding his tone-less thai. .. OMMFG, another thai language pundit is spawned, errr, or is that spurned?

BACK ON TOPIC:

I concur with other posters who say it is the choice of vocabulary a foreigner uses which gives away where they learned their thai; be it a thai language school or from rent-2-own, time-share gurlz and the areas they are known to frequent.

I also find it mildly amusing that a foreigner with only a marginal grasp of bangkokian thai would insert cutesy 'Issan thai' words into their speech to endear them to whoever they're speaking to. As the thais say; 'That's SOOOOO Lao". and FWIW that term is NOT a compliment.

A thai is never gonna look down on a foreigner for speaking polite middle of the road thai, but may if you spout off low-end impolite or overly familiar thai to someone not in your immediate circle of close friends. This is where foreigners go off the script, thinking everyone speaks the same level or degree of politeness in their spoken thai.

People who are close friends will use a much more familiar or intimate thai than people who've just met for the first time in a social setting and still sussing out where everyone stands on the proverbial socio-economic ladder of success. Once that is discerned thru innocuous and often times seemingly meaningless conversation they will fall into the superior-subordinate roles based on age, earning parity, education, etc which is the standard with which thais gauge each other due to the 'thai culture' being a much more class based one.

I can usually tell after listening to a foreigner speak thai if they had any schooling, learned from the streets, or from their (in)significant thai other. It’s not that difficult and you only need listen to someone speaking a few sentences which aren’t frozen phrases to figure it out. While I certainly speak foreign accented thai, I would never ever speak overly familiar thai to someone I didn't know quite well already.

[gotglue]

What does "dop salop sa lai" mean, is it something about slapping someone until their dizzy?

Slap you until you fall unconcious

Only spoken by bar girls and men who hang out with bar girls

Also avoid saying Teerak (use Gew Dta) and never ever understand the hoi jokes.

Dop salop sa lai, translates to 'knocked out' and is used by any Thai that is pi_sed off enough to want to knock someone out. It is NOT solely used by bar girls .

Teerak.....anyone may use that, and MOST Thais do.

As for 'hoi' jokes, I've heard them from ALL social classes, even the highest of hi-so's.

Maybe the Sun does shine out of your a_se, which makes you believe that you are so very "hi-so". You really need to try and pull your head out of it sometimes!

Edited June 22, 2010 by gotglue

[phomsanuk]

The dead givaway is the use of L in words rather than the rolling R

[mikenyork]

Phomsanuk: Very, very few Thais of whatever class roll their r's in any but the most formal speaking environments (unless they're from the South). Mixing l's and r's or actually the sound that is midway between the two is common, in my experience, to virtually all Thais, even when they are speaking to their "betters". But Thai is hierarchical in a way that English has almost completely lost. And Thais have a sense of where they are relative to who they're talking to that I find almost impossible to master. I get it intellectually, but in practice it's very hard to make the fine distinctions that Thais make automatically. My solution is to err on the side of politeness. This sometimes brings a smile to the Thai person I'm talking to, but it causes no offense.

[Tod Daniels]

The dead givaway is the use of L in words rather than the rolling R

Yet another thai language pundit weighs in on all thingz thai. With as many ‘experts’ on the thai language as this forum has I wonder why I don’t hear more foreigners actually speaking clear, coherent thai instead of '2-word-tourist-thai’, ‘horse-peak’, or that hideous mix of 'baby-talk-engrish-thai' which seems so prevalent.

The only time I hear distinct r-rolling in normal thai speech is;

*overly pretentious newscasters

*wanna-b-hi-so thai kids acting better than they are

*goof-ball foreigners who think they speak thai better than they really do.

Even at Immigrations, the police stations, MFA, etc; when dealing with the officials there, the slight blurring of r’s and l’s is more than evident.

One the street this type of pretentious over pronunciation and/or rolling your r’s will get the thais you interact with to roll their eyes and think you’re too full of yourself for your own good. Especially if the rest of your thai is marginally pronounced.

I totally concur with the poster known as "mikenyork" in his observations about rolling your r's.

[tombkk]

What does "dop salop sa lai" mean, is it something about slapping someone until their dizzy?

Slap you until you fall unconcious

Only spoken by bar girls and men who hang out with bar girls

Also avoid saying Teerak (use Gew Dta) and never ever understand the hoi jokes.

Dop salop sa lai, translates to 'knocked out' and is used by any Thai that is pi_sed off enough to want to knock someone out. It is NOT solely used by bar girls .

Teerak.....anyone may use that, and MOST Thais do.

As for 'hoi' jokes, I've heard them from ALL social classes, even the highest of hi-so's.

Maybe the Sun does shine out of your a_se, which makes you believe that you are so very "hi-so". You really need to try and pull your head out of it sometimes!

[Deleted]

Edited June 22, 2010 by tombkk

[tombkk]

Mia/Pua is usually used by working class Thais and lo-so, not exclusive to bar girls.

I always use Panrayaa/Samee as I consider myself very hi-so, the Thais around me understand but don't use the words themselves.

White people (being rich and well educated) should always use the hi-so words.

The above bits of insight into the thai language come from a poster who advocates forgoing the tones and speaking thai in a monotone. [...]

BACK ON TOPIC:

I concur with other posters who say it is the choice of vocabulary a foreigner uses which gives away where they learned their thai;

[...]A thai is never gonna look down on a foreigner for speaking polite middle of the road thai, but may if you spout off low-end impolite or overly familiar thai to someone not in your immediate circle of close friends. This is where foreigners go off the script, thinking everyone speaks the same level or degree of politeness in their spoken thai.

People who are close friends will use a much more familiar or intimate thai than people who've just met for the first time in a social setting and still sussing out where everyone stands on the proverbial socio-economic ladder of success. Once that is discerned thru innocuous and often times seemingly meaningless conversation they will fall into the superior-subordinate roles based on age, earning parity, education, etc which is the standard with which thais gauge each other due to the 'thai culture' being a much more class based one.

I can usually tell after listening to a foreigner speak thai if they had any schooling, learned from the streets, or from their (in)significant thai other. It's not that difficult and you only need listen to someone speaking a few sentences which aren't frozen phrases to figure it out. While I certainly speak foreign accented thai, I would never ever speak overly familiar thai to someone I didn't know quite well already.

Full ACK.

[hiero]

The dead givaway is the use of L in words rather than the rolling R

Yet another thai language pundit weighs in on all thingz thai. With as many 'experts' on the thai language as this forum has I wonder why I don't hear more foreigners actually speaking clear, coherent thai instead of '2-word-tourist-thai', 'horse-peak', or that hideous mix of 'baby-talk-engrish-thai' which seems so prevalent.

The only time I hear distinct r-rolling in normal thai speech is;

*overly pretentious newscasters

*wanna-b-hi-so thai kids acting better than they are

*goof-ball foreigners who think they speak thai better than they really do.

Even at Immigrations, the police stations, MFA, etc; when dealing with the officials there, the slight blurring of r's and l's is more than evident.

One the street this type of pretentious over pronunciation and/or rolling your r's will get the thais you interact with to roll their eyes and think you're too full of yourself for your own good. Especially if the rest of your thai is marginally pronounced.

I totally concur with the poster known as "mikenyork" in his observations about rolling your r's.

I agree, but I think it really depends on the situtation and environment you're in. If i talk with my teacher I รรรร and ผม and ครับ but with thai friends, people my own age etc that stuff is usually omitted.

However I don't agree with thai's 'rolling their eyes' (that is unless you're cleary a fluent/near native speaker) the benefit of the doubt is usually always given

btw, I am no expert, I would probably class myself as intermediate depending on what is being spoken about

Edited June 22, 2010 by hiero

[sarahsbloke]

Phomsanuk: Very, very few Thais of whatever class roll their r's in any but the most formal speaking environments (unless they're from the South). Mixing l's and r's or actually the sound that is midway between the two is common, in my experience, to virtually all Thais, even when they are speaking to their "betters". But Thai is hierarchical in a way that English has almost completely lost. And Thais have a sense of where they are relative to who they're talking to that I find almost impossible to master. I get it intellectually, but in practice it's very hard to make the fine distinctions that Thais make automatically. My solution is to err on the side of politeness. This sometimes brings a smile to the Thai person I'm talking to, but it causes no offense.

Luckily, as people from the western world, our education has been much better, our wealth is much higher, so we really don't have to worry about our place in the pecking order ........ it's right at the top. (excluding a few Thais that went to Oxford and some white trash of course)

PS

Any Thais reading this thread would know exactly where to place foreigners who insult total strangers, in their social order, no matter how good their Thai skills are.

Edited June 22, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[bhoydy]

PS

Any Thais reading this thread would know exactly where to place foreigners who insult total strangers, in their social order, no matter how good their Thai skills are.

I would assume that you would mean to put these people, who insult total strangers, down at the bottom of the heap then. If so i would like to refer to one of your previous posts, where you called the owner of a restaurant 'stupid' because the person didn't understand your non-tonal Thai. Speaking Thai without the tones was also something you advocated in that thread, you do understand that Thai without tones is like English without vowels, just pure gibberish. Anyway now that you have fallen from the dizzy heights of your self-proclaimed 'very hi-so status' down to the bottom of the heap with the other white trash (would they also be strangers to you?), i must offer my condolences to you.

[sbk]

So, tod-daniels, do you know Southerners? All the Southerners I know pronounce their r's rather clearly and do tend to roll them. But perhaps they are just being pretentious wannabe hi so islanders.

[gotglue]

Wow.....here's me thinking the "Thai Language" forum would somehow be different from the "General Topics". How wrong was I..............Ku

Edited June 23, 2010 by gotglue

[Tod Daniels]

So, tod-daniels, do you know Southerners? All the Southerners I know pronounce their r's rather clearly and do tend to roll them. But perhaps they are just being pretentious wannabe hi so islanders.

Truth be told I was taking a jab at the newest thai language pundit known as "phomsanuk" and the post they made about thais blurring r's and l's in colloquial speech.

While off topic, to answer your question; Nope, dunno a single southern thai. In fact; not being able to swim, anything even remotely 'beachy' or 'islandy' here is of less than zero value to me. I never spent any time down there, nor have the hankering to do so. With that being said, I'll just hafta take your word that southern thais distinctly roll their r's when the speak. It does carry anecdotal value, especially seeing as I don't live in and amongst them.

Regional accents of these people (thais) speaking the only government approved version of thai aka; 'central thai' or 'bangkokian thai' are not uncommon in fact they are all too common, just like regional accents of americans in the US, or brits in the UK.

Nearly every thai I know can; after hearing another thai speak central thai, guess with a pretty high degree of accuracy as to where that particular person came from before making the 'trek to the big smoke' to work in bangkok.

I was relating my personal observations and experiences ONLY. That they are dissimilar from yours negates neither of our observations. They're just different.

Perhaps I paint with too broad a brush, but in my world, things are either black or white; and using a broad brush I can cover a lot of ground quickly.

I stand humbly erected errr , I mean ‘corrected’ in my over generalization of the thais who engage in noticeable r rolling, which I think might also be called 'trilling'.

[Daewoo]

I think it is pretty clear that the letter is a rolled 'r'... not an 'l'... It is the only letter in the alphabet which is rolled... there is a rule when the 'r' becomes and 'l' (I can't remember it or half the other rules)... Thais, being the lazy shits that they are , or maybe because they can't remember the rule either, often just use 'l' all the time... but it doesn't make it correct...

Aussies are lazy shits... <deleted>, most of the time we don't even use the first two letters of the name of our country, and skip a couple in the middle as well... it's AUstrailIa, not Strailya... the lazier you are with your pronuciation, the lower class you will always seem...

Despite how acceptable it is, I want the Thai's to know I respect their country, so I make the effort to use their language correctly, even if they don't... and am often complimented on that... khRup...

Cheers,

Daewoo

Edited June 23, 2010 by Daewoo