Thailand Fights Addiction To Plastic Bags

[Deeral]

Landfill is in itself a major problem as it is anaerobic and anything put in landfill can remain exactly as it is or produce dangerous methane. Plastic in land fill or anywhere else is INERT and will remain there for ever. THis has serious consequences for later use of"filled" land.

Plastics for the most part cannot be disposed of without environment damage.

The industry is huge and of course sensitive to public opinion - many of the "degradable" products are in the end as about as effective as filter cigarettes were.

[kissdani]

maybe he use this kind of food boxes: Born-Bio-Packaging

I often say in the 7/11 that i don't need a bag. without getting strange looks. Maybe that is only because you are Farang and speak with a funny accent.

Or if you buy your food for the evening down the soi where all the food vendors are and you give them your own reusable food box to carry the stuff away you will not get strange looks. Try that with your fried rice dealer.

If Farangs think everything is so bad and backward in Thailand and Thai people are so stupid and not intelligent same as Farang, why you Farang coming here at all. Where is there the Farang "logic"?

I think you might have gotten the wrong end of the stick kissdani - this is not a "bash the Thais" post.

Years ago, most, if not all, western countries had the exact same problems Thailand is facing now and most westerners know - from first-hand experience - what the long-term consequences are of poluting our rivers, seas, environment, etc. I assume that only a few farang think "everything is so bad and backward in Thailand and Thai people are so stupid and not intelligent" - but not all of us think like this. The simple fact of the matter is: the west has been through this years ago and we have seen the damage we did to our environment - Thais have not yet experienced the consequences. Believe it or not, but most of us farang probably just want to see the Thais do the right thing for THEIR (Thai) country, THEIR (Thai) environment and THEIR (Thai) future. You have no idea how bad it feels to watch people destroy something so beautiful because they don't know / think / care about it.

It is the governments' responsibility to educate / inform the people - it's time for a campaign on environmental issues (and a couple of other topics as well) in this country before the problem gets out of control.

In my honest opinion I think it should be law that every customer pays a minimum of ฿ 5 for every single plastic bag they want at the store. Then you'd soon see many, many more people taking cloth bags, backpacks, baskets, etc. with them to the stores.

People got my post wrong too.

It is an educational thing and old habits. For example the now historical packing in banana leaves did not much damage to the environment and there was not much problem with just dropping it on the road side. That was just one two generations ago. With the plastic bags it is of course different and there is a problem and education work has to be done. Compare the traditional Thai desserts and sweet snacks, they come in banana leaves or rice paper, but the more western (or japanese) style potato snacks in fancy package look better in kids eyes.

But there are more than one Thai who are aware of this and try for a change. Like the biodegradable packing.It exists. An ignorant Farang don't want believe it. The bio-thingy is a new industry and Thailand bid to become a player on that field. There is also a lot of recycling going on.

There are campaigns to protect the nature and to raise the awareness of environmental damage and to promote the 'green way'. Since 2002 Thailand has a Ministry for Natural Resources and Enviroment http://www.mnre.go.th/

I don't buy beer cans in the Seven, but i cannot believe that they give 15 straws with it. Some Farangs try hard to see only the negative and the worst side of it.

And there is nothing to argue about that the 'plastic bag' is a product of the 'modern', the western civilization. Some people seems to have a problem to admit it.

[Deeral]

Yes the west had problems but in some ways they are much worse and of a different nature here in Thailand - firstly - plastic bags are a relatively NEW problem and they are a boon for packaging in less well off economies so they are more plentiful then ever and much more tempting than they used to be....how many times did you buy your coke in a plastic bag back home to save on the deposit on the can??

THe other problem is that it doesn't matter HOW MUCH legislation they introduce in Thailand, it simply isn't followed up and enforced to the same degree it was in the west.....corruption, graft and ineptitude sees to that.

Edited June 29, 2010 by Deeral

[Deeral]

Another sad factor is that much recycling of garbage etc is best done by hand - it is very labour intensive - this means in the west it is often too expensive.

In Thailand wages are so much lower I can't understand why people aren't employed in huge numbers to collect litter of the streets and beaches - the boost to tourism would surely pay for the investment in all that labour?

[bonobo]

))& you're getting your wires crossed a bit - the point behind paper is they can be made from "sustainable" sources and are recyclable and biodegradable - plastics even biodegradable do not re-enter the bio-system. Carbon foot print is not just CO2 produced either.

Paper takes more energy to produce and pollutes waterways except where extreme measures are taken to clean it (and most places in the world do not enforce the water quality.)  And while cardboard is fairly easily recycled, and newsprint is somewhat easily recycled, the vast amount of paper is difficult to do so, not so much for technical but for logistics reasons.  And sustainable sources or not, it releases carbon back into the air.  Paper's carbon footprint is higher than that of most plastics.

[bonobo]

Landfill is in itself a major problem as it is anaerobic and anything put in landfill can remain exactly as it is or produce dangerous methane. Plastic in land fill or anywhere else is INERT and will remain there for ever. THis has serious consequences for later use of"filled" land.

Plastics for the most part cannot be disposed of without environment damage.

The industry is huge and of course sensitive to public opinion - many of the "degradable" products are in the end as about as effective as filter cigarettes were.

If it is inert, then how can it cause environmental damage in a landfill?  Inert objects cannot damage the environment unless their very physicality does the damage (being swallowed by sea turtles who mistake plastic bags for jellyfish is one example.)

[Deeral]

Landfill is in itself a major problem as it is anaerobic and anything put in landfill can remain exactly as it is or produce dangerous methane. Plastic in land fill or anywhere else is INERT and will remain there for ever. THis has serious consequences for later use of"filled" land.

Plastics for the most part cannot be disposed of without environment damage.

The industry is huge and of course sensitive to public opinion - many of the "degradable" products are in the end as about as effective as filter cigarettes were.

If it is inert, then how can it cause environmental damage in a landfill? Inert objects cannot damage the environment unless their very physicality does the damage (being swallowed by sea turtles who mistake plastic bags for jellyfish is one example.)

go figure - it's inert in the sea it's inert in anywhere it gets - in lanfill it has one set of problems in other disposals it has another set.

THe argument for papr is rather missing the ppint too and we all know of the problems of paper but they are not as intractable as those associated with the plastic bag.

landfill in it self is so biset with problems too - I think you need to spend some time reading th right stuff.

[brahmburgers]

Even worse than convenience store bags is the propensity for wrapping absolutely everything in plastic. I just bought a 4 meter long metal ladder (extends to 7 meters) - the entire thing was wrapped in thick plastic. Wheelbarrows, tires, mattresses, ......you name it, it's all wrapped in plastic before being sold. For the ladder, I insisted the salespeople remove the plastic before I took it out of the store. It took them five minutes with shears to remove it all.

Everyone should do this: When you buy something wrapped in plastic, take off the the wrapping BEFORE you exit the store. The store then has to deal with the added trash. After awhile the store will inform the suppliers/manufacturers not to package everything as if for a nuclear holocaust.

Also: for a poster (government produced, distributed in all schools) show a photo of a sea turtle choking on a plastic bag. One little known fact about plastic bags is they cause immense damage to undersea life.

Also, I was riding my bicycle thru a Burmese village recently and saw a little boy playing with a plastic bag over his head. I jumped off my bike and took the bag off the kid's head. I tried explaining to the gathering crowd about the dangers of suffocation. The only one in the crowd who understood was the boy's sister, who went on to explain to the rest of the crowd. All smiles after that.

Simple solution would be that the Thai stores to start buying "biodegradable" bags and use them. Yes, they exist are being used elsewhere and in fact everywhere else it seems. They are actually made from "vegetable oil" and "plasticizers". I have been given them to me here a few times so I know they do exist here. The bags are identified by a "recyclable" label printed on it. They literally self destruct in 3-6 months with exposure to heat or UV light.

[bonobo]

landfill in it self is so biset with problems too - I think you need to spend some time reading th right stuff.

I received my doctorate in the field, so I rather think I might have been reading the "right stuff."  

Landfills have problems, as pretty much anything humans do on this earth, but plastic shopping bags are not part of the problem.  The "problem" with them vis-a-vis landfills as touted by the anti-plastic crowd, is that the world is running out of landfill space (as early as 2012 in one recent environmental group report).  And that is preposterous.  That is a red herring based on the capacity of current operating landfills.  But as is the nature of the beast, as one landfill is filled and covered, a new one is started.

And if you bother to read my post, you will see that I acknowledged the fact that the physicality of plastic bags in and of itself, can cause problems, the most noted and publicized case having to do with sea turtles.  As an inert (and the bags are essentially inert) object, there is, by definition, no interaction with the environment, no way for the molecular components to enter any other system.  So a turtle can choke on a bag, just as small children have been smothered by dry-cleaning bags made of the same material.  But buried in a landfill, there is no interaction between the bag and the environment.

Plastic shopping bags can be an eyesore as they blow about the landscape.  But they are less damaging to the environment than paper bags. And the difference would be even more heavily tilted to plastic if people worldwide conscientiously recycled them. 

So I suggest you do some reading as well, but from peer-reviewed science publications, not paper lobbyists nor environmental whackos seeking any pulpit without regards to truth.  (And once again, I am an ardent environmentalist, just one who would rather deal with real problems backed by solid science.  I have published in the field, and environmental groups remain they largest recipient group for my financial contributions.)

[thaiedward]

Even worse than convenience store bags is the propensity for wrapping absolutely everything in plastic. I just bought a 4 meter long metal ladder (extends to 7 meters) - the entire thing was wrapped in thick plastic. Wheelbarrows, tires, mattresses, ......you name it, it's all wrapped in plastic before being sold. For the ladder, I insisted the salespeople remove the plastic before I took it out of the store. It took them five minutes with shears to remove it all.

Everyone should do this: When you buy something wrapped in plastic, take off the the wrapping BEFORE you exit the store. The store then has to deal with the added trash. After awhile the store will inform the suppliers/manufacturers not to package everything as if for a nuclear holocaust.

Also: for a poster (government produced, distributed in all schools) show a photo of a sea turtle choking on a plastic bag. One little known fact about plastic bags is they cause immense damage to undersea life.

Also, I was riding my bicycle thru a Burmese village recently and saw a little boy playing with a plastic bag over his head. I jumped off my bike and took the bag off the kid's head. I tried explaining to the gathering crowd about the dangers of suffocation. The only one in the crowd who understood was the boy's sister, who went on to explain to the rest of the crowd. All smiles after that.

Simple solution would be that the Thai stores to start buying "biodegradable" bags and use them. Yes, they exist are being used elsewhere and in fact everywhere else it seems. They are actually made from "vegetable oil" and "plasticizers". I have been given them to me here a few times so I know they do exist here. The bags are identified by a "recyclable" label printed on it. They literally self destruct in 3-6 months with exposure to heat or UV light.

Nice post, per usual.

Has it been mentioned on this thread that plastic doesn't bio-degrade and does indeed photo-degrade? Not to mention the "Pacific Gyr" which, as you may well know, is a swirling mass of plastic, styro-foam, etc. which is located someplace between California and Hawaii. And, lest I forget, it's twice the size of Texas. There exist two smaller gyrs in the Atlantic and all of these are a result of 'corralling' by oceanic currents which constitute the foundation of our planet's heat-pump/air-con system.

Corporate greed has cost so much for all earthlings.

"The future sure ain't what it used to be." from POGO, a decades-old cartoon-strip from Walt Kelly

[djayz]

Even worse than convenience store bags is the propensity for wrapping absolutely everything in plastic. I just bought a 4 meter long metal ladder (extends to 7 meters) - the entire thing was wrapped in thick plastic. Wheelbarrows, tires, mattresses, ......you name it, it's all wrapped in plastic before being sold. For the ladder, I insisted the salespeople remove the plastic before I took it out of the store. It took them five minutes with shears to remove it all.

Everyone should do this: When you buy something wrapped in plastic, take off the the wrapping BEFORE you exit the store. The store then has to deal with the added trash. After awhile the store will inform the suppliers/manufacturers not to package everything as if for a nuclear holocaust.

Also: for a poster (government produced, distributed in all schools) show a photo of a sea turtle choking on a plastic bag. One little known fact about plastic bags is they cause immense damage to undersea life.

Also, I was riding my bicycle thru a Burmese village recently and saw a little boy playing with a plastic bag over his head. I jumped off my bike and took the bag off the kid's head. I tried explaining to the gathering crowd about the dangers of suffocation. The only one in the crowd who understood was the boy's sister, who went on to explain to the rest of the crowd. All smiles after that.

Simple solution would be that the Thai stores to start buying "biodegradable" bags and use them. Yes, they exist are being used elsewhere and in fact everywhere else it seems. They are actually made from "vegetable oil" and "plasticizers". I have been given them to me here a few times so I know they do exist here. The bags are identified by a "recyclable" label printed on it. They literally self destruct in 3-6 months with exposure to heat or UV light.

If we did leave all the wrapping at the store, the stores would simply throw this wrapping out with the rest of the trash. I honestly don't see them ever informing their suppliers not to wrap every single item... besides, we farang only make up a small percentage of the population - the majority of people would have to speak out against all this wrapping, then and only then, could something be changed.

[craigt3365]

I had to post this. Went to Big C on a previous posters tip they sell shopping bags there. YES! They do. I think it was 45B for a recycled green bag with reinforced handles. Sold where they sell purses. Great deal! Went to the checkout with a bunch of other stuff. I put that bag right up front so I could use it. Also had my other 2 bags. She rang it up and immediately put it in a plastic bag! I just started to laugh. My wife had to explain what the bag was for. She just didn't get it. I had to constantly take things directly from her hand to get it into my, large, bag. Unreal....

[VespaSeeker]

I have my own green bags i got from Tops after spending more than 800bt i think it was a while ago , but sometimes i dont have them with me and constantly have to wrestle with staff to stop them using to many bags , last week i was in Tescos and had 11 items placed in 4 seperate bags , i think thats my record ! , i'm just used to the staff and everybody in the que staring at me in disbelieve now as i empty all the bags out and place the stuff in 1 ! even after i done this a few days ago the staff tried to grab my single bag back and double bag it !!?? Unbelievable !

Surely some staff training is required here , wouldn't hurt to speed them up a little too !

[asiaworld]

Wow so many replies, all in unison supporting "progressive ways" of the west, and scolding backward thaiways

Well let me spit against the wind, than. No i do not support littering ! but that has NOTHING to do with small joys in life, like ready available plastic bags 7-11s etc etc .. Ask yourselves, why are you here,"obvious reasons" aside . Especially if you prefer Rwandan, or western ways ! don't deceive yourselves, its the quality & cost of good life you're NOT going to get in the places you praise. Start with charging 25 cents a bag, than on to replacing 7-11s with shops, that open 10-17 mo-fr..than throw in a 20-25% VAT , regulate everything tightly... Let me remind you incase some of you been too long here , it's where we came from .. The day Thailand become like Rwanda, or Dublin, i'm sure i'll be struggling to get the first flight out,cause many others would flee as well.. value, what you have, while it lasts.

PS; i do use plastic bags from shops to wrap garbage in and dispose of it that way,so thats a useful way of recycling'em.

[JetsetBkk]

<snip>

After awhile the store will inform the suppliers/manufacturers not to package everything as if for a nuclear holocaust.

<snip>

"nuclear holocaust"? What about mildew and corrosion after being stored in a warehouse at 35 - 45ºC for a few months? That's what the plastic is for.

[Deeral]

Totally agree about leaving the packing in the stores.

"One little known fact about plastic bags is they cause immense damage to undersea life." - only with some of the posters on this thread who have some truly bizarre ideas about environmental issues.

[astral]

For the second year in a row, the Bangkok Metropolitan Administration (BMA) is holding its 45-day 'No Bag, No Baht' project, which offers consumers a one-baht (three U.S. cents) discount for every 100 baht (nearly three dollars) purchase if they use their own cloth bags when shopping in several local markets. Meanwhile, each plastic bag will cost them one baht.

1. Why is this only for 45 days, and not 365???????????

2. Where can these cloth bags be purchased in Thailand?

I have two from Tesco in the UK.

One is called a "bottle bag", divided into 6 sections to hold 6 bottles upright without banging together.

I think it cost me 65p, about 37baht. Excellent value.

[Thai at Heart]

For the second year in a row, the Bangkok Metropolitan Administration (BMA) is holding its 45-day 'No Bag, No Baht' project, which offers consumers a one-baht (three U.S. cents) discount for every 100 baht (nearly three dollars) purchase if they use their own cloth bags when shopping in several local markets. Meanwhile, each plastic bag will cost them one baht.

1. Why is this only for 45 days, and not 365???????????

2. Where can these cloth bags be purchased in Thailand?

I have two from Tesco in the UK.

One is called a "bottle bag", divided into 6 sections to hold 6 bottles upright without banging together.

I think it cost me 65p, about 37baht. Excellent value.

Ironically, probably made in Thailand too.

People have mentioned to me too many times that plastic bags is big business for some people. However, I can't see that the "Plastic Bag Mafia" should hold the country to ransom. Then when considering that most of the inputs have to be imported, it wouldn't be too hard to reduce the consumption of plastic bags by 30% over a couple of years.

They don't need to hit a home run and ban them altogether or the such, but the problem in Thailand about giving potentially achievable targets is that someone has to actively go out and do something. And that is just not half as much fun as sitting infront of a microphone and talking about it.

[Deeral]

Oh come on!

Take a look around the industrial estates of Thailand or just read up!

You'll see the amount of petrochemical based and plastics industry in this country is huge - and that means the people involved are some of the most powerful and influential people in thailand.

[Thai at Heart]

Oh come on!

Take a look around the industrial estates of Thailand or just read up!

You'll see the amount of petrochemical based and plastics industry in this country is huge - and that means the people involved are some of the most powerful and influential people in thailand.

Whilst Plastics and oil are big business, the amount that is set aside for "plastic" bags probably represents 0.001% of the entire production that comes out of the raw products in those industrial estates.

I have a friend of a friend up country who produces oodles of bags and straws in a ramshackle little factory. It was quite fascinating to see actually how an imported machine of probably 40 years of age could still turn out straws in the 100s of metres per hour. It looked like a factory out of Oliver Twist. He is the "plastic bag" kingpin of that particular town and his massive across town competition specialises also in the high technology production of buckets, wash bowls and plastic stools. Don't need to ban all the bags, just make people consider when, where and how they have to or don't have to use them. 1 baht a bag would be enough to get most Thai's attention.

I would imagine that the entire plastics production for car parts probably out "values" plastic bags by 100 to 1.

PTT isn't going to lose any sleep if plastic bag consumption goes down in Thailand.

[bonobo]

Reusable bags are readily available in Thailand (although the post of the check-out girl putting items in a plastic bag before putting them in the reusable bag elicited a big laugh from me.)  This is actually near and dear to my heart as my company makes these reusable bags for Thailand, the US, the Philippines, the UK, and Italy.  So on a personal (read bank account) level, I would love it if the government mandated that only reusable bags be authorized for use.

But as a consumer, I use the disposable shopping bags readily.  I put the half an onion I just cut in one, twist it shut, then put it in the fridge. I use one to dump the cat litter, tie it off, then dispose of it in the trash bin outside.  I wrap my smelly and wet workout clothes before putting them back into my suitcase so I can move on to my next destination.  I put my shoes in them before putting those in my suitcase as well. And so on and so forth.

While Thai clerks use too many bags when bagging purchases for my tastes, and while I wish there was a California-style recycling ability for the bags, I certainly don't want to go cold turkey and do away with them.

[Token]

A recent news report warns against recycled bags due to build-up of bacterial contamination - unless you wash them regularly - and hence spill more detergent into the environment:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1290983/Beware-deadly-toxins-eco-friendly-shopping-bag.html?ITO=1708&referrer=yahoo

I'm afraid biodegradebale it is - they are easily found cheaply in many supermarkets in Thailand.

[bonobo]

A recent news report warns against recycled bags due to build-up of bacterial contamination - unless you wash them regularly - and hence spill more detergent into the environment:

http://www.dailymail...&referrer=yahoo

I'm afraid biodegradebale it is - they are easily found cheaply in many supermarkets in Thailand.

Yes, and your underwear gets a build-up of contaminants if you don't wash it, too.  The article does not warn against using reusable bags, but rather points out the need to clean them.

Biodegradable bags certainly have a place, but reusable bags do have a lower carbon footprint.

[Token]

A recent news report warns against recycled bags due to build-up of bacterial contamination - unless you wash them regularly - and hence spill more detergent into the environment:

http://www.dailymail...&referrer=yahoo

I'm afraid biodegradebale it is - they are easily found cheaply in many supermarkets in Thailand.

Yes, and your underwear gets a build-up of contaminants if you don't wash it, too. The article does not warn against using reusable bags, but rather points out the need to clean them.

Biodegradable bags certainly have a place, but reusable bags do have a lower carbon footprint.

Well I don't know about u but I don't put food down my underwear. How do u know that reusable bags have a lower carbon footprint than biodegradeable ones?

[thaimite]

This link looks a very promising solution to the problem. I hope it can get developed soon.

Quote

Rather than languishing in landfills or littering roadsides, plastic bags could make their way into useful products like toner, lubricants, or rechargeable cell phone or laptop batteries, if new research becomes commercialized.

Plastic recycling is limited by the fact that different types of plastic cannot be mixed. The quality of the resulting recycled plastic may also be poor. "That's why recycling is not very successful," said study author Vilas Pol of Argonne National Laboratory in Argonne, Ill.

Rather than just melting the waste plastic and re-extruding it, Pol's process continues to heat plastic bags or other plastic waste past the point of melting. He holds the material in a sealed container that builds up pressure as the material gets hotter and hotter and becomes a gas.

At high temperatures and pressures in the chamber, the plastic decomposes into its elements. If the chamber is filled with inert gas instead of air, the hydrogen in the plastic becomes hydrogen gas, which can be collected and used as hydrogen fuel.

The carbon in the plastic forms spheres or egg-shapes depending on the type of waste plastic used in the reactor. The uniform size and shape make the spheres particularly useful for certain applications, like filtration, where packing tightly together is useful.

[bonobo]

Well I don't know about u but I don't put food down my underwear. How do u know that reusable bags have a lower carbon footprint than biodegradeable ones?

No, but bits of, shall we say "processed" foods get there!  

I have a hard copy report right here which goes into it.  I know that doesn't do you much good, but so be it.

In a nutshell, though, biodegradable bags put the carbon right back into the atmosphere.  This gets sucked up in new plants, which are then used to make new bags.  Seems carbon neutral, right?  However that neglects to take into account the cost of manufacturing and transport.  A biodegradable bag goes through some significant processing to get from a corn kernel to a bag, and that costs energy.  Then transport takes more energy.  And this is done theoretically four times a year given a 3-month degradation timeline.  A reusable bag captures more carbon per bag, then holds it for longer.  But most off all, the energy needed to make one reusable bag which might last for two or three years is far less than making a biodegradable bag four times a year.  

Couple that with the fact that this presumes that one biodegradable bag equals on reusable bag.  That is not the case. While that bag is happily degrading, more bags need to be made to be used in the meantime, using up even more energy.   Given that people shop several times a week, that means that one reusable shopping bag might be the equivalent of an eventual total of 312 biodegradable (3 bags per week X 52 weeks per year X 2 years). 

[Token]

Well I don't know about u but I don't put food down my underwear. How do u know that reusable bags have a lower carbon footprint than biodegradeable ones?

No, but bits of, shall we say "processed" foods get there!

I have a hard copy report right here which goes into it. I know that doesn't do you much good, but so be it.

In a nutshell, though, biodegradable bags put the carbon right back into the atmosphere. This gets sucked up in new plants, which are then used to make new bags. Seems carbon neutral, right? However that neglects to take into account the cost of manufacturing and transport. A biodegradable bag goes through some significant processing to get from a corn kernel to a bag, and that costs energy. Then transport takes more energy. And this is done theoretically four times a year given a 3-month degradation timeline. A reusable bag captures more carbon per bag, then holds it for longer. But most off all, the energy needed to make one reusable bag which might last for two or three years is far less than making a biodegradable bag four times a year.

Couple that with the fact that this presumes that one biodegradable bag equals on reusable bag. That is not the case. While that bag is happily degrading, more bags need to be made to be used in the meantime, using up even more energy. Given that people shop several times a week, that means that one reusable shopping bag might be the equivalent of an eventual total of 312 biodegradable (3 bags per week X 52 weeks per year X 2 years).

I don't think u understood my answer above - the problem with reusable bags is that you need to regularly sanitize them to prevent crosss contamination of food that you keep putting in the bags if they are used for shopping.

I realise what you mean about relative carbon footprints of the 2 types of bag, but:

1. Reusable bags do not, long-term, fully address the problem of plastic residues ending up either in land-fill sites or in the oceans as many reusable bags are made from non-biodegradable plastics - which also means they are not carbon neutral. The additional load of deteregent to wash the bags also has to be factored in - or the carbon footprint of medical attention from the bugs.

2. Reusable bags are not always reused effectively - and may not be used for anything like 2-3 years. At least we can put an end-use and, more importantly, an environmental time-limit on a biodegradable bag.

3. Reusable bags do not substitute for most plastic bags - such as single use in packaging of food and manufactured products. For example, I can't see you persuading a food vendor to start washing out bags returned by his customers, or a supermarket reusing the wrapping from chocolate box diligently returned from a recycling bin.

I think if we think globally, reusable bags are Ok for shopping at Tescos but would do little for the whole issue of plastic bag substitution around the world. Biodegradable bags wouldn't be carbon neutral but at least would prevent build-up of plastics in the environment, which is the main purpose of the original article.

[bonobo]

Well I don't know about u but I don't put food down my underwear. How do u know that reusable bags have a lower carbon footprint than biodegradeable ones?

No, but bits of, shall we say "processed" foods get there!  

I have a hard copy report right here which goes into it.  I know that doesn't do you much good, but so be it.

In a nutshell, though, biodegradable bags put the carbon right back into the atmosphere.  This gets sucked up in new plants, which are then used to make new bags.  Seems carbon neutral, right?  However that neglects to take into account the cost of manufacturing and transport.  A biodegradable bag goes through some significant processing to get from a corn kernel to a bag, and that costs energy.  Then transport takes more energy.  And this is done theoretically four times a year given a 3-month degradation timeline.  A reusable bag captures more carbon per bag, then holds it for longer.  But most off all, the energy needed to make one reusable bag which might last for two or three years is far less than making a biodegradable bag four times a year.  

Couple that with the fact that this presumes that one biodegradable bag equals on reusable bag.  That is not the case. While that bag is happily degrading, more bags need to be made to be used in the meantime, using up even more energy.   Given that people shop several times a week, that means that one reusable shopping bag might be the equivalent of an eventual total of 312 biodegradable (3 bags per week X 52 weeks per year X 2 years).

I don't think u understood my answer above - the problem with reusable bags is that you need to regularly sanitize them to prevent crosss contamination of food that you keep putting in the bags if they are used for shopping.

I realise what you mean about relative carbon footprints of the 2 types of bag, but:

1. Reusable bags do not, long-term, fully address the problem of plastic residues ending up either in land-fill sites or in the oceans as many reusable bags are made from non-biodegradable plastics - which also means they are not carbon neutral. The additional load of deteregent to wash the bags also has to be factored in - or the carbon footprint of medical attention from the bugs.

2. Reusable bags are not always reused effectively - and may not be used for anything like 2-3 years. At least we can put an end-use and, more importantly, an environmental time-limit on a biodegradable bag.

3. Reusable bags do not substitute for most plastic bags - such as single use in packaging of food and manufactured products. For example, I can't see you persuading a food vendor to start washing out bags returned by his customers, or a supermarket reusing the wrapping from chocolate box diligently returned from a recycling bin.

I think if we think globally, reusable bags are Ok for shopping at Tescos but would do little for the whole issue of plastic bag substitution around the world. Biodegradable bags wouldn't be carbon neutral but at least would prevent build-up of plastics in the environment, which is the main purpose of the original article.

Yes I do understand the point of sanitation on the original article. And it is a valid point.  But sanitation issues aside, that does not make biodegradables the obvious choice.  And as I have posted above, I do think that the current "flimsy" shopping bags, biodegradable or not, have their uses. I can not see the reusable bags, in their present forms, filling all packaging needs.  But as a means to move purchases from the store to the home, they are the best bet available now

However, you are right in saying that plastic reusable bags in a dumpsite are not carbon neutral.  But this is a good thing. THey are carbon "minus,"  so-to-speak.  They lock up carbon and keep it from getting into the air.  This is called sequestration, and it is a major goal among the global-warming scientists. 

I am not against biodegradable products.  We are researching into using them now, in fact. It is just that they are not the panacea that some make them out to be, and plastics are not the devil's tools some make them out to be.

[Token]

However, you are right in saying that plastic reusable bags in a dumpsite are not carbon neutral. But this is a good thing. THey are carbon "minus," so-to-speak. They lock up carbon and keep it from getting into the air. This is called sequestration, and it is a major goal among the global-warming scientists.

How can non-biodegradeable plastics be carbon minus when they are manufactured from fossil fuels? Also they don't 'lock' away carbon indefinitely - they will chemically degrade over time, releasing carbon - it just takes much longer than biodegradeable ones.

I still believe that if only shopping bags are made reusable then it will make only a miniscule difference to plastic accumulation - particularly as the current plastic supermarket bags are almost universally reused as rubbish bags. The rubbish bags would need to be made reusable and that would be a big sanitary issue and not feasible. Given the option I would choose biodegradable as the only really viable alterantive to the current plastic bags but I will compromise and say that the answer is bags that are both biodegradeable and reusable!

[bonobo]

However, you are right in saying that plastic reusable bags in a dumpsite are not carbon neutral.  But this is a good thing. THey are carbon "minus,"  so-to-speak.  They lock up carbon and keep it from getting into the air.  This is called sequestration, and it is a major goal among the global-warming scientists.

How can non-biodegradeable plastics be carbon minus when they are manufactured from fossil fuels? Also they don't 'lock' away carbon indefinitely - they will chemically degrade over time, releasing carbon - it just takes much longer than biodegradeable ones.

I still believe that if only shopping bags are made reusable then it will make only a miniscule difference to plastic accumulation - particularly as the current plastic supermarket bags are almost universally reused as rubbish bags. The rubbish bags would need to be made reusable and that would be a big sanitary issue and not feasible. Given the option I would choose biodegradable as the only really viable alterantive to the current plastic bags but I will compromise and say that  the answer is bags that are both biodegradeable and reusable!

Read up on sequestration and then get back to me.

And you can't have it both ways.  Either the bags degrade and  don't take up landfill space, or they are essentially inert and for all practical purposes, keep carbon out of the air. Or at least, they can keep it out of the air during the time frame we need to be  able to come up with better ways to address the issue.

(And they are "carbon-minus" because they took carbon out of the air, albeit it millions of years ago.)

In my humble opinion, get off the minor issue of sanitation (minor in terms of environmental impact) and get a grasp of the science on the issue.  Or don't, if you don't want to, and go on believing the hype.