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Jaw Dropper Of The Day

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The Left getting absurd?

I though it was the Religious Extremist Right getting absurd...

Just watch Fox News "The spin stops here", "Fair and balanced reporting" .. yeah right ... sheesh!

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The Left getting absurd?

I though it was the Religious Extremist Right getting absurd...

Just watch Fox News "The spin stops here", "Fair and balanced reporting" .. yeah right ... sheesh!

Fox news :D:o applicable catch phrases:

"We report, we decide"

"If we want your opinion, we'll give it to you!"

"If you're watching this daily, you're a complete moron and deserve to be spoon fed"

Special note to choreography by Karl Rove ...

Lamenting- "if only McCarthy had his very own news stn, we'd be so far ahead"

:D:D

UK Police Told to Be Polite While Raiding Terror Suspects

"British police have been ordered to refrain from using dogs and to remove their shoes when raiding Muslim homes.

And no raids during prayer times.

Ian Johnston, the Chief Constable of the British Transport Police, is taken to task by the human rights lobby when he says his officers won’t be wasting time searching ‘little old white ladies’ on the Tube.

Leaked guidelines from the Bedfordshire force say that when officers raid Muslim homes they should remove their shoes, not use dogs and not mount pre-dawn raids because at that hour people might by ‘spiritually busy’."

Spiritually busy...unbelievable :o

Link

I do actually agree with this Boon, with good reason.

There's going to be a huge level of satisfaction drawn by everybody when the judge eventually sentences these bastards (to h3ll, hopefully), knowing full well that everything was done by the book; nobody confessed under duress and no intimidation techniques were used.

I'll be satisfied for sure.

I agree. Doing things the right and proper way is what separates civilized, evolved people from barbarians. This is how you win respect in the long run.

  • Author

Well, in terms of 'Jaw-Droppers', it'll be hard to top this one:

In todays Guardian (where else?) London Mayor Red Ken Livingstone outlines “three ways to make us all safer:” “support the police,” treat Muslims with respect, and surrender in Iraq.

Link

Up in Norway, during WW2, they called 'em "Quislings"

Don't confuse one with the other Boon Mee. Treating people with respect is (should be) a universal rule. Treason is not.

Well, in terms of 'Jaw-Droppers', it'll be hard to top this one:

In todays Guardian (where else?) London Mayor Red Ken Livingstone outlines “three ways to make us all safer:” “support the police,” treat Muslims with respect, and surrender in Iraq.

Link

Up in Norway, during WW2, they called 'em "Quislings"

The Mayor of London does not say "surrender" in Iraq, he says "withdraw" from Iraq........after WWII we eventually withdrew from Japan (meaning the US military)....we did not "surrender".....Boon Mee, do you know the difference between surrender and withdraw? If so then you are shamelessly propogandizing, if not then study up a bit.

  • Author
Well, in terms of 'Jaw-Droppers', it'll be hard to top this one:

In todays Guardian (where else?) London Mayor Red Ken Livingstone outlines “three ways to make us all safer:” “support the police,” treat Muslims with respect, and surrender in Iraq.

Link

Up in Norway, during WW2, they called 'em "Quislings"

The Mayor of London does not say "surrender" in Iraq, he says "withdraw" from Iraq........after WWII we eventually withdrew from Japan (meaning the US military)....we did not "surrender".....Boon Mee, do you know the difference between surrender and withdraw? If so then you are shamelessly propogandizing, if not then study up a bit.

Not a good analogy there. Chownah. We withdrew from Japan after an unconditional surrender. We 'withdraw' from Iraq now, the terrorists have won... :o

  • Author

Let's take a look at what a history of capitulation has done for the British. Observe what payoffs and negotiations with jihadi Corsair pirates reaped.

Nothing but a million and more captured Europeans sold into the slave trade in the Middle East, a practice that wasn't stopped until they got their rear ends kicked.

British Slaves on the Barbary Coast

And notice how the writer of the article practically does backbends trying NOT to mention that the perpetrators of the mass kidnappings were Muslims.

Being a good dhimmi doesn't work. There is never enough money, there are never any binding treaties, there is never an end to the demands.

Red Ken is a fool. History will prove him wrong and England will pay the price as it did before. :o

Well, in terms of 'Jaw-Droppers', it'll be hard to top this one:

In todays Guardian (where else?) London Mayor Red Ken Livingstone outlines “three ways to make us all safer:” “support the police,” treat Muslims with respect, and surrender in Iraq.

Link

Up in Norway, during WW2, they called 'em "Quislings"

The Mayor of London does not say "surrender" in Iraq, he says "withdraw" from Iraq........after WWII we eventually withdrew from Japan (meaning the US military)....we did not "surrender".....Boon Mee, do you know the difference between surrender and withdraw? If so then you are shamelessly propogandizing, if not then study up a bit.

Not a good analogy there. Chownah. We withdrew from Japan after an unconditional surrender. We 'withdraw' from Iraq now, the terrorists have won... :o

The article does not give a time table for withdrawal.....which is not the same thing as surrender....a point you are careful to ignore.

  • Author

Well, this muct be a 'two-fer' Thursday as none other than George Galloway - Great Britain's sole Baath Party member of parliament, weighs in on Syrian TV:

"Two of your beautiful daughters are in the hands of foreigners - Jerusalem and Baghdad. The foreigners are doing to your daughters as they will. The daughters are crying for help, and the Arab world is silent. And some of them are collaborating with the rape of these two beautiful Arab daughters. Why? Because they are too weak and too corrupt to do anything about it...

It's not the Muslims who are the terrorists. The biggest terrorists are Bush, and Blair, and Berlusconi, and Aznar, but it is definitely not a clash of civilizations. George Bush doesn't have any civilization, he doesn't represent any civilization. We believe in the Prophets, peace be upon them. He believes in the profits, and how to get a piece of them. That's his god. That's his god. George Bush worships money. That's his god - Mammon."

Somebody should tell Gorgeous George that Karl Marx (curse be upon him) is a prophet that failed, and is not actually recognized as one by the Muslim faithful. :o

  • Author
Someone should put him down.

Galloway is the UK's Michael Moore. He only says these things to enrage those on the right. If the west was FOR Saddam, he'd be against Saddam. It is all publicity for himself. How else could a hack like him get such attention?

We 'withdraw' from Iraq now, the terrorists have won... :o

Not to burst your bubble Boon Boon, but I think the terrorists have already won :D

You are just not there yet :D

  • Author
We 'withdraw' from Iraq now, the terrorists have won... :o

Not to burst your bubble Boon Boon, but I think the terrorists have already won :D

You are just not there yet :D

Well, as Yogi Berra said: "It ain't over 'til it's over"! :D

Someone should put him down.

Galloway is the UK's Michael Moore. He only says these things to enrage those on the right. If the west was FOR Saddam, he'd be against Saddam. It is all publicity for himself. How else could a hack like him get such attention?

Bill O'reilly and Ann Coulter are there for what ? to "entertain" the left ? oh wait, they do :o

  • Author
Someone should put him down.

Galloway is the UK's Michael Moore. He only says these things to enrage those on the right. If the west was FOR Saddam, he'd be against Saddam. It is all publicity for himself. How else could a hack like him get such attention?

Bill O'reilly and Ann Coulter are there for what ? to "entertain" the left ? oh wait, they do :o

One of my favorites: "Airports scrupulously apply the same laughably ineffective airport harassment to Suzy Chapstick as to Muslim hijackers. It is preposterous to assume every passenger is a potential crazed homicidal maniac. We know who the homicidal maniacs are. They are the ones cheering and dancing right now."

--Ann Coulter

  • Author

Jaw Dropper of the non-political variety! :D

Man jailed for urinating on tree

The bizarre upshot of an unneighbourly act carried out under the cover of rural darkness.

IT IS the latest skirmish in the war against leylandii and must be one of the ultimate acts of defiance by any neighbour.

This border dispute, however, plumbed new depths when a pensioner repeatedly urinated over his neighbour’s hedge and yesterday found himself locked up at the local police station.

David Jollands, 72, of Caythorpe, Lincolnshire, feared that the dreaded trees, which can grow to 80ft (25m), would tower over his garden — so he used his own gardening expertise to retaliate. :o

Read the rest

Boon, the jaw dropper of the day, will be iss the ALL BLACKS lose to the Springboks.kickoff in about 40 mins.

Now this IS important! :o

  • Author
Boon, the jaw dropper of the day, will be iss the ALL BLACKS lose to the Springboks.kickoff in about 40 mins.

Now this IS important! :D

We gotta have our priorities, chuchok!

Best of luck to the Springboks! :o

Boon, the jaw dropper of the day, will be iss the ALL BLACKS lose to the Springboks.kickoff in about 40 mins.

Now this IS important! :D

We gotta have our priorities, chuchok!

Best of luck to the Springboks! :D

:o

Hey Boon Me, An eye opener and a jew dropper only for you :o

http://alternet.org/wiretap/23882/

Hint: You are not winning :D

echariah, 25, of Lynnwood, Washington, enlisted in the Army when he was 21, and was deployed to Iraq from March 2003 to January 2004 with the 173rd Airborne Brigade as a medic.

Zechariah grew up in a military family; both his mother and father were medics in the Army. Zechariah wanted to work in the medical field as a nurse, but couldn't afford school. So he signed up to be a parachute infantry medic for the job experience, money for school, and a little adventure.

He spoke to AlterNet about the war, his hopes and fears, and the hard road ahead.

What were you told were the reasons for the war in Iraq when you first began your duty?

The only thing that we had really heard was that Saddam was hiding weapons of mass destruction and we were going to go and oust him and find them.

I knew about the gassing of the Kurdish population in northern Iraq and was scared of being attacked while on the ground there with chemical and biological weapons. I highly doubted that they had any type of nuclear weaponry though, so I wasn't worried about that. I think if Saddam had that stuff, he would have shown it off with either a test or public display. He was a pretty arrogant person, in my opinion.

Did your beliefs change once you were participating in the war?

I think my beliefs had changed once we were on the ground. Within days we had seized all of the oil fields in northern Iraq and our primary mission was to protect them. Bush had said this war wasn't about oil, but there I was defending oil fields at all costs in the middle of Iraq. A lot of the piping and workings of the fields had been destroyed by the fleeing army and before we even started to help the people by fixing the power or water supplies, they had construction crews trying to get everything up and running on the oil fields.

They say this war isn't about oil. How about they go and trade places with one of the soldiers that would love to come home, and see what's going on around the oil refineries and see how much work is being put into them and how little is being put into restoring power and water. My brother just got back [from Iraq]and said they still only have power and water for maybe five to six hours out of the day.

I also worked with a lot of the local hospitals. The whole time we were there, the hospitals kept getting worse and worse. They never had any supplies or new machines installed. Even some of the more simple machinery, like X-ray machines, were never replaced. Every time I went into one of the hospitals I almost emptied my aid bag so they could have sterile catheters and needles. I couldn't believe my eyes to see that they were having to reuse these supplies because they couldn't get replacement equipment. They didn't even have soap.

All of this helped me to see where the priorities in this war were. Obviously, not in the people.

How were some of your experiences interacting with local Iraqis?

We lived in a normal house in a neighborhood that was pretty helpful. They always told us that as long as we protected the neighborhood, they would do all they could to help us. Whenever we got attacked, some of the neighbors would normally know where they came from. They also gave us tips whenever they happened to hear of something weird going on. We worked pretty heavily with the Turkmen [Turk] populations and the Kurdish populations. Both were very friendly.

We personally re-supplied three schools in a Turkmen [Turk] neighborhood through family donations and personal contributions for the help they gave us in finding weapons, caches, and insurgent hideouts. They invited our whole platoon to a dinner and dance put on by the school of elementary-age students for our help. My brother said they aren't friendly to U.S. forces anymore. I'm sure we wore out our welcome in the past year.

Did you ever express dissent? Did any soldiers express dissent or not agree with the reasons for the war once they were actively participating in the war?

I never expressed any dissent towards anyone above me or towards a mission. My squad leader and platoon sergeant were both really outspoken people and when a command or operation came down to us, they were really good about saying that was a stupid or suicidal mission and find someone else to do it.

One mission in particular changed even our Company Commander's (CO) views. We were ordered to do a mission that was not Army protocol and would be dangerous if done that way. We were forced to do it and we lost three soldiers in two minutes. After that our CO was very vocal and active in how missions would be done.

Orders would come down from some officer sitting in an office that had never left the wire and had no idea how the city and its people and the insurgents work. After that night, our Commanders and Platoon Sergeant were really good about "making slight" changes to plans so that it would be more safe for their men. They would get in trouble, but it came down to the fact that they planned on seeing their families again.

How did you maintain your strength to finish your service when you found yourself questioning the war?

I questioned the war from the start so the whole thing was hard. Especially after watching one of my really good friends that I had trained day in and day out with for the past three years die while I was trying to do all I could to make sure he made it home to his wife and for what reason? Kyle saved my life that night by taking fire that was intended for me. After Kyle's death, I just counted the days. I didn't really care anymore. I was saddened to know that so many more were going to have to experience what I had done and seen.

Before that, I thought about what I was going to do when I got home. Daydreams, lots and lots of daydreams. I'm really into motorcycles so I read lots of motorcycle magazines and made lists of parts to buy with my pay and mapped out rides that I wanted to take -- anything that would take my mind off of the frustrations of being there.

After six months of being there, I knew that we were fighting a people that would never give up and we could never beat. I didn't blame them either. One of the Turks put it into perspective for me. What if one day, here in Seattle, I looked up and there were Iraqis falling out of the sky in chutes invading the U.S. He asked what I'd do. I thought about it and I'd be doing exactly what they were doing to us over there.

Were you ever informed of an exit strategy while you were on active duty?

An exit strategy? They couldn't even figure out what day we were going home, let alone the whole entire military. We initially went, being told to only take enough supplies for 90 days. Three months later, we were told another month, then another month, and another. Finally, seven months into it, we were told that they had no idea as to when we were going home. At about the 10-month mark, they finally said that we would be doing a full year and the good news was we only had two months left.

This game of when we were going home wreaked havoc on the morale of the troops about as bad as being attacked day in and day out, and living off of MREs [Meals Ready to Eat] for a year -- they have a shelf life of something like 14 years I think.

How do you feel about the need for an exit strategy now?

I still feel just as strong about the need for an exit strategy as before. We are not going to win this war. The longer we are there, the more people are going to join the fight against us. We asked detainees why? Most said because they had lost a family member. So, if we figure that most families are three to four people and every time we kill one insurgent, they recruit two to three new members that may have not hated the U.S. until they lost a family member by their hands. It's the same as if they invaded here. Most households have a weapon in the house. That's millions and millions of weapons and people that are willing to protect their family and country from foreign invaders. They won't give up until we are all gone off of their soil.

Do you remember your feelings on your last day of active duty?

Yes. I still feel them every time the topic of Iraq comes up, or it pops into my mind. I felt elated to have survived, but then I felt guilty for surviving when so many in our unit hadn't made it home. Three of these were personal friends. I sat on the flight out of Iraq and asked why was I chosen to make it and why were these guys not allowed to go home. I thought before I went to Iraq that I would come home feeling like a hero. All I felt on that flight home was shame, guilt, and sadness. I still feel the same a year later.

What do you think about Secretary Rumsfeld's projection that we could be in Iraq for another 12 years?

I think he needs to spend some time over there and see how out of control it has gotten in just two to three years. If he thinks that we are going to somehow magically regain control of that country, he really has no idea as to the severity of the situation over there.

Also, within two to fours years they won't have a large enough army to fight anything with the enlistment and re-enlistment rates that I'm hearing. I got out and I will never go back there. My brother is getting out also because of the mess over there. I took an oath to defend my country when I enlisted. Iraq has nothing to do with defending my country. I didn't sign up to defend someone's personal interests, whatever it may be.

How was your homecoming back in the states?

My homecoming was surprising. It started in Italy where we were booed and had eggs thrown at us. We weren't allowed in the cities after dark. It was kind of like still being in Iraq.

The U.S. was a different story though. I don't tell people about it, because I'm ashamed of it. I had friends that would say stuff at bars when I got back and I would get free covers and free drinks all night. I also got a huge discount at Car Toys when my mom said I had just got back and was restoring an old Bug as a project to relax some.

The amount of support that people show towards the troops is insane. But there are a lot more who don't support us than before the war started and are pretty vocal about it, like it's our fault. I had to go to Ft. Lewis (near Tacoma, Washington) and I had to be in uniform. Some lady saw me, and ran up to my car and yelled at me for killing innocent Iraqis and threw her gum at my car. For one, I was a medic. I never killed anyone.

I've had two other times where someone saw my old unit sticker in my car and yelled at me for signing up and supporting the Army. I want these people to know it's not a soldier's choice to go to war and I wouldn't have signed up if that person would have been willing to pay my tuition. I didn't want anything to do with this war. Afghanistan, I can understand trying to get Bin Laden, if that's what we were doing there. But, Iraq, all of the soldiers I went with felt pretty good about going there at first. Six months into it, almost all of us thought this was a bunch of crap.

When people yell at me about the war, I tell them, 'I am right there with you but you're yelling at the wrong person.’ If a soldier says he doesn't want to fight in the time of war, desertion or disobeying a direct order from an officer are punishable by death by firing squad or by the officer that made the order. I doubt that this would happen in this day and age, but it's there [in the books] and it's scary. Either that or you just go to jail, no questions asked.

School has been the most interesting place. People will argue Iraq in certain classes. Most of the time I keep my mouth shut, but every now and then I hear a comment that gets me fired up so I say something to defend the troops. They aren't the ones who make the decisions. They just follow orders and do what they can to make sure they get home in one piece. I think I have opened some people's eyes as to what is going on. I try to explain it impartially and let them make up their own minds as to whether it's bad or good. I just want to make sure they know what really goes on.

How are you doing now?

I have nightmares almost every night involving Iraq and those that died. I have been working with someone that specializes in war PTSD . She has helped me understand the dreams and keep them from being triggered. They don't bother me in the daytime anymore. I wake up, think that was another bad dream and then go on with my day. For a couple of months I would only sleep for two to three hours a night and I finally decided I couldn't do this anymore.

I've been going to school knocking out all of the prerequisites for the RN [nursing] program at one of the local community colleges and restoring a vintage VW [Volkswagen] Bug. I should be applying [to go to school] this fall depending on how my summer courses go.

Are you getting the services you need to transition back into civilian life?

Yes, but it is getting harder. For some reason the funding for my PTSD counselor has just been stopped and I have to go and meet with her to figure out what hoops I have to jump through now to get it reactivated again. It's supposed to be free for two years but about every two months things change and it gets cancelled and I have to do something different to go back and meet with her.

Have you been reconnecting with old friends and family members? Do you miss any fellow soldiers you met in Iraq?

I am back here with my family. As to old friends, I've found that I like to keep to myself. There are a few that I see every now and then, but I'd rather just hang out with my brother and my girlfriend who has gone to some of the meetings to understand what's going on with my head at times.

I have heard from a few of my old Army buddies, but it's weird. I can't explain why yet. I just know that when I talked to the guys that were my brothers while in Iraq, I feel like a traitor or ashamed. Being their medic or "doc" was the best feeling in the world, but when soldiers die in your care and my platoon watched as I tried to do what they were counting on me to do, I felt like I lost their respect.

I did do good things. One of the guys I worked on lost his right arm, but had it successfully re-attached and almost full use of it again. But just losing that one in front of everyone made me feel detached from them. I miss them, but I couldn't look them in the eyes or spend an evening drinking with them if I ran into them. I feel like a failure in their eyes, I guess.

Looking back, is there anything you wish you knew, that you weren't told?

I think the hardest thing that I know now that we were never trained for was the loss of friends, and to see them go in front of you. We train as if [we're] machines with no emotions, but once it happens and you see every thing unfold in front of you, with people you know better than your own family, it is really destructive to your emotions and morale. I remember after Kyle was killed, I sat in my sleep space and cried for almost an hour praying that this would end and I was on my way home over and over. I know now that it's easier to work with those that you have no emotional ties [to]. If I had to go back, I would tell the platoon that I got assigned to that I don't want to know anything about you. I'm here as your medic and that's it. It is really hard to work on those you know. I can do a better job of putting you guys back together if I don't know you.

Is there anything you would like to add?

I keep hearing that the troops' morale is high over there. When you have a high-ranking officer standing next to you prepping your answers, it's hard to speak your mind. We weren't allowed to talk to media unless a Major or above was with us to prep our answers and screen certain questions.

I couldn't tell you of a single soldier that was excited to be in Iraq having rockets shot at them and IEDs blowing up their friends on a daily basis. Some of these guys are on their third or fourth tours over there. Do you really think they are excited to be in the 130 degree desert, living off of MREs, missing their children being born, watching friends die, praying they aren't next.

President Bush, like Cheney, obviously has no idea as to what is going on over there and doesn't care. This whole thing about taking the fight to the terrorists has got me mad. He already proved to us and himself that Iraq wasn't a threat and that they had no WMDs and he is still trying to say they were terrorists and we need to stop them. They weren't terrorists until we killed off parts of their family. Now they are terrorists because they have lost something that the U.S. took from them, parts of their families.

  • Author
Hey Boon Me, An eye opener and a jew dropper only for you  :D

"jew dropper" (sic)?

We know you're an opinionated guy there Butterfly, but anti Semitic too? :o

Hey Boon Me, An eye opener and a jew dropper only for you  :D

"jew dropper" (sic)?

We know you're an opinionated guy there Butterfly, but anti Semitic too? :D

:o

A typo, Boon Boon (or is it Porkie today), never happened to you, right ? :D

Well, in terms of 'Jaw-Droppers', it'll be hard to top this one:

In todays Guardian (where else?) London Mayor Red Ken Livingstone outlines “three ways to make us all safer:” “support the police,” treat Muslims with respect, and surrender in Iraq.

Link

Up in Norway, during WW2, they called 'em "Quislings"

The Mayor of London does not say "surrender" in Iraq, he says "withdraw" from Iraq........after WWII we eventually withdrew from Japan (meaning the US military)....we did not "surrender".....Boon Mee, do you know the difference between surrender and withdraw? If so then you are shamelessly propogandizing, if not then study up a bit.

What do you mean, "withdraw" we're still there!

Butterfly-

Why do you sound so happy about terrorists wining? You seem to agree with them that the way they go about getting attention is okay, why?

  • Author
Well, in terms of 'Jaw-Droppers', it'll be hard to top this one:

In todays Guardian (where else?) London Mayor Red Ken Livingstone outlines “three ways to make us all safer:” “support the police,” treat Muslims with respect, and surrender in Iraq.

Link

Up in Norway, during WW2, they called 'em "Quislings"

The Mayor of London does not say "surrender" in Iraq, he says "withdraw" from Iraq........after WWII we eventually withdrew from Japan (meaning the US military)....we did not "surrender".....Boon Mee, do you know the difference between surrender and withdraw? If so then you are shamelessly propogandizing, if not then study up a bit.

What do you mean, "withdraw" we're still there!

Butterfly-

Why do you sound so happy about terrorists wining? You seem to agree with them that the way they go about getting attention is okay, why?

Butterfly is of the Red Ken persuasion - lets's see how bad it can get for our forces in Iraq... :o

Well, in terms of 'Jaw-Droppers', it'll be hard to top this one:

In todays Guardian (where else?) London Mayor Red Ken Livingstone outlines “three ways to make us all safer:” “support the police,” treat Muslims with respect, and surrender in Iraq.

Link

Up in Norway, during WW2, they called 'em "Quislings"

The Mayor of London does not say "surrender" in Iraq, he says "withdraw" from Iraq........after WWII we eventually withdrew from Japan (meaning the US military)....we did not "surrender".....Boon Mee, do you know the difference between surrender and withdraw? If so then you are shamelessly propogandizing, if not then study up a bit.

What do you mean, "withdraw" we're still there!

Butterfly-

Why do you sound so happy about terrorists wining? You seem to agree with them that the way they go about getting attention is okay, why?

Was that WINNING or WHINING ? :o

Butterfly-

Why do you sound so happy about terrorists wining? You seem to agree with them that the way they go about getting attention is okay, why?

Did you read that story above ? it has nothing to do with terrorists. They are "freedom figthers" trying to defend their country. How would you feel if Chinese decided to invade "America" because a mad cow Texan cowboy is threatening World Peace ? I am sure the Chinese would label you Terrorists. Did you know that the "French Resistance" was labelled terrorists by the Petin Government and their Nazis friends.

Another thing, terrorism always work. That's the sad truth, but at the end they always get what they wanted.

A few examples:

1. IRA

2. Palestinians (almost there only if the Israelis would respect their previous accord)

3. Mujahdeens in Afghanistan against the Russians

4. The American Revolution ?

As for Iraq, I am sure they will win. It's just a question of time before the American public get an idea how much of a Vietnam disaster this really is.

Should the US leave immediately ? you bet no. They should stay as long as needed to rebuild the country but it's not going to happen. They broke it and therefore they should fix it. But as always with the American military, you break things and you don't take responsability for it and leave. Disgraceful. Like it was in Vietnam.

....

Another thing, terrorism always work. That's the sad truth, but at the end they always get what they wanted.

A few examples:

1. IRA

2. Palestinians (almost there only if the Israelis would respect their previous accord)

3. Mujahdeens in Afghanistan against the Russians

4. The American Revolution ?

Excuse me, but your interpretation of history is completely your own and most certainly is not shared by most observers.

It is true, terrorism hits the soft underbelly of society that even the most autocratic states find unable to defend themselves against: Russia in the late 19th century; the Shah's Iran in the early 70's - to give two examples.

But even in these two extreme examples, it is argued, change only took place because the views of the vast majority of the people demanded it - despite the terrorism. The main force for change in these countries was a fundamental anti-western feeling generated by industrialisation without an industrial revolution.

It is as a result of these two examples that terrorists believe they will win. But the examples you quote when analysed prove the exact opposite.

1. The IRA, who have just rejected all forms of violence (could be argued - have been militarily defeated) have NOT achieved their aims of a united Ireland.

2. The Palestinians who may soon be able to declare a state in the self-same land that was offered to them in the '40s by the UN - before Palestinian terrorism began - have NOT (and will not) achieve their aim of the eradication of the State of Israel and the establishment of a Palestinian state in its place.

3. The Mujahdeens in Afghanistan, and their so-called victory, against the Russians cannot be looked at without considering the consequences of the disintegration of the Soviet Union running parallel to these events.

4. I wont argue the American Revolution - there are too many terms we need to define and agree on before we could have a useful discussion.

Suffice it to say that terrorism only wins in two areas:

1. The publicity it generates for a cause or issue

2. It allows appeasers another argument against the resolve of those who will never allow terrorism a victory.

You are absolutely right TM.

When I meant winning I meant getting enough attention for their cause to become legitimate and therefore to start to get somewhere and eventually get what they wanted in the first place.

IRA, getting there, not yet, but the accords are there, they just need to be implemented.

Palestinians, same, the Palestinian state is going to happen no matter what. 2005 ? not sure.

Mujahdeens happened with the help of the west, but it was mostly the Russians incompetence that made the Victory easier. A repeat with the Chenchens ?

Terrorism does get you somewhere, and they know it. We have more to loose than they do. It's the poor man "nuclear option".

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