Buddism V Christianity

[The Gentleman Scamp]

Christians slag off Buddism saying it is a load of rubbish but I think christianity is vile.

Did you know that according to Christians, all those who don't live their life as a Christian and accept the baby Jesus into their hearts will not go to heaven and will perish in an afterlife of danmnation; EVEN if you are a really top bloke and have devoted your life to being a really top bloke and being nice to people, helping them wherever you can.

What do the people on this forum have to say to these godbotherers who mock not only Buddism, but whatever is not in line with their alienating and obsessive way of life?

(This is a big deal to me as I fear I could lose the love of my life to Christianity.)

[chonabot]

Christians slag off Buddism saying it is a load of rubbish but I think christianity is vile.

Did you know that according to Christians, all those who don't live their life as a Christian and accept the baby Jesus into their hearts will not go to heaven and will perish in an afterlife of danmnation; EVEN if you are a really top bloke and have devoted your life to being a really top bloke and being nice to people, helping them wherever you can.

What do the people on this forum have to say to these godbotherers who mock not only Buddism, but whatever is not in line with their alienating and obsessive way of life?

(This is a big deal to me as I fear I could lose the love of my life to Christianity.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not all Christians are this bad Scamp. What particular branch of Christianity do these people belong to ?

I am currently doing an OU degree , and this year I am studying World Religions. I shouldn't worry about some zealot who seems to be doing a number on you.

Btw where are you off to for 6 months mate ?

[The Gentleman Scamp]

Christians slag off Buddism saying it is a load of rubbish but I think christianity is vile.

Did you know that according to Christians, all those who don't live their life as a Christian and accept the baby Jesus into their hearts will not go to heaven and will perish in an afterlife of danmnation; EVEN if you are a really top bloke and have devoted your life to being a really top bloke and being nice to people, helping them wherever you can.

What do the people on this forum have to say to these godbotherers who mock not only Buddism, but whatever is not in line with their alienating and obsessive way of life?

(This is a big deal to me as I fear I could lose the love of my life to Christianity.)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not all Christians are this bad Scamp. What particular branch of Christianity do these people belong to ?

I am currently doing an OU degree , and this year I am studying World Religions. I shouldn't worry about some zealot who seems to be doing a number on you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Very few of them are bad but they really do piss me off.

I've dipped my toe in the water of most religions and in my experience it is people, humans that have f*cked it all up.

I just hate the way they try to change you, no matter how subtle they are their motives are all the same.

Granted, some do not and keep it a PRIVATE thing which is what it should be anyway, we were after all created as individuals.

If I am going to burn in h£ll just for not being able to force myself to enjoy the company of these people once a week and to read the Bible then God isn't the type of person I want to associate with anyway.

The Bible is a dire read, it's not a scratch on Post Mortem by Ben Elton.

[Sir Burr]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, isn't heaven empty?

Aren't we supposed to wait for judgement day? You know, that bit that says "when the sea shall give up her dead". On judgement day it gets decided who goes to heaven.

[Oleg_Rus]

buddism vs christianity is the question of monotheism vs idolatry, according to christian teachings.

loosing love of your life to christianity ? what sort of love is it ?

[dr_strangelove]

Christians slag off Buddism saying it is a load of rubbish but I think christianity is vile.

Did you know that according to Christians, all those who don't live their life as a Christian and accept the baby Jesus into their hearts will not go to heaven and will perish in an afterlife of danmnation

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

IMHO whoever waste their life at church crying Jesus Jesus will remain in the graveyard only... I dont know when these morons will realize a fact that "Jesus"="Love" and that what none of us have in heart... Means we all go to ###### or remain in graveyard.. and thats excatly what we all are going through... The catholic church has interpreted and manipulated all those good lines written in The Holy Bible.. now its more like the english subtitles in the pirated dvd's you buy in asia... Its just my own opinion... and I dont know much about Buddism... Basically there is only one God and since we are humans, its our weekness to make more and more religion... "One wise man in the middle of a million morons = a new religion"...

no offence pls....

[alex100]

Religion is used all over the world as a political tool to control the lives and minds of people - that is any religions greatest crime.

[Rags]

Doesn't look as though Thomas has taken the bait yet Scamp...

[apdare]

Religion = how can we control other people

This maybe is not how it starts, but it is always hijacked by some people to try to control others.

[The Gentleman Scamp]

loosing love of your life to christianity ? what sort of love is it ?

Long story, will post in blog soon.

But you're right, it's MY problem, she's not a tambourine basher and doesn't preach at all but it has caused some arguements, friendly ones but very fustrating for me, especially seeing as she's the most intelligent person I have ever loved.

There are those who force it on others.

There are those who are brainwashed by it.

And there are those who live a basic lifestyle and routine because it works for them.

She is the latter.

I spoke to a friend in London about this, a 40 yr old wide boy called Mark who recently got the sack from his job as traffic warden for jokingly refering to himself as a nigger but that's another story.

To my surprise, he revealed he was a christian which I hadn't known before and I've known him for three years, and I don't want to despise or ridicule him, or Aisha, or my half brother or even Thomas Merton.

So I need to seperate the wheat from the chaff and become a little more understanding otherwise I will end up offending people I don't mean to.

Before I go to China I will PM Thomas merton my number and perhaps we'll have a chat, I would value his wisdom on my curent situation.

TM used to be a right stuck up pompous git on here but he has mellowed out a lot and that's what I need to do.

BTW, I've got nothing against God, whoever he is, I never did.

[Thomas_Merton]

Gulp, gulp, Scampus, gulp, gulp, bite.

It’s interesting, as confrontational as always, you have set this thread up as a football match between two great traditions. Only fools and fundamentalists see anything contra in these two complementary ways.

And fundamentalists are fools because they profess to believe that the mysteries of this world and the next, together with the reason and purpose of our existence are all found in one book.

“Beware of the man who has only read one book”, said St Thomas Aquinas.

I was at a lecture in Copenhagen given by Dorri Lessing. In the question time, one student asked her how she prepares to write? Doris replied with the vague, “Well it all depends on the situation etc.” But went on to say, “All writers before they attempt to write about the human condition ought to read The Bible, The Gnostics, The Koran, The Bagvaghita and The Dahmapada, because within these pages are gateways to the Truth.”

(I’ve just been running up and down the Ribble Valley with our Labrador pup – he’s fast asleep across my feet and I’m quite knackered – so don’t expect any apparent connections in these pensées)

Words are lousy tools for appreciating anything worthwhile about religion. Words can describe how to build a brick wall, but when it comes to concepts and abstracts so much depends upon the user’s concept of a word and also how that word is conceptualised by the reader. Unfortunately all that happens in nearly all theological/philosophical discussions can be summed up as one big word game.

Religion is experiential. What works for you, works for you because you have experienced that it works. Even in matters requiring faith.

Criticism of religion as an opiate of the masses, or in many cases, being used a crutch to enable folk to live their lives more securely, is unfair, in so much that it assumes this is the case for all. This is no more the case for religion than it is for those who use Sigmund Freud or Carl Marx etc. as a support for their view on life.

Please read Thomas Merton. He more than any, as a result of his vast experience, has seen the similarities between the way of Christ and the way of the Buddha, and because of his vast talents as a writer, has come closest to describing this ecumenism.

(too tired to write any more – must sleep)

[The Gentleman Scamp]

Gulp, gulp, Scampus, gulp, gulp, bite.

It’s interesting, as confrontational as always, you have set this thread up as a football match between two great traditions. Only fools and fundamentalists see anything contra in these two complementary ways.

And fundamentalists are fools because they profess to believe that the mysteries of this world and the next, together with the reason and purpose of our existence are all found in one book.

“Beware of the man who has only read one book”, said St Thomas Aquinas.

I was at a lecture in Copenhagen given by Dorri Lessing. In the question time, one student asked her how she prepares to write? Doris replied with the vague, “Well it all depends on the situation etc.” But went on to say, “All writers before they attempt to write about the human condition ought to read The Bible, The Gnostics, The Koran, The Bagvaghita and The Dahmapada, because within these pages are gateways to the Truth.”

(I’ve just been running up and down the Ribble Valley with our Labrador pup – he’s fast asleep across my feet and I’m quite knackered – so don’t expect any apparent connections in these pensées)

Words are lousy tools for appreciating anything worthwhile about religion. Words can describe how to build a brick wall, but when it comes to concepts and abstracts so much depends upon the user’s concept of a word and also how that word is conceptualised by the reader. Unfortunately all that happens in nearly all theological/philosophical discussions can be summed up as one big word game.

Religion is experiential. What works for you, works for you because you have experienced that it works. Even in matters requiring faith.

Criticism of religion as an opiate of the masses, or in many cases, being used a crutch to enable folk to live their lives more securely, is unfair, in so much that it assumes this is the case for all. This is no more the case for religion than it is for those who use Sigmund Freud or Carl Marx etc. as a support for their view on life.

Please read Thomas Merton. He more than any, as a result of his vast experience, has seen the similarities between the way of Christ and the way of the Buddha, and because of his vast talents as a writer, has come closest to describing this ecumenism.

(too tired to write any more – must sleep)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Not a bad reply at all considering you're knackered, and a worthy reposte to any future quarrels with christians who are so adamant they know 'the truth' that they get themselves all het up.

I've a good mind to either memorise this post or print and lamanate it.

Respect your elders for they are seen and heard and walk the earth.

That is my own quote inspired by the above and I will pass it onto any younglings who gaze upwards and ask me why.

[chonabot]

As mentioned before I have studied and to some extent I am still reading about World religions at a reasonably high level ( BA , now hoping to MA , eventually Phd - ) . IMO some of the anti religion posts before are understanable simply due to the terrible press that this life system recieves these days.

I have no bias towards any Living faith and hope that this is an area that I can write/think/talk about without too many judgements.

Nations such as India simply could not function without religion , it is in anything and everything they do. Politics and religion are too often confused and mistaken , sometimes one uses the other. I would imagine in the Western world , religion never had a worse time than the present. If one takes the time to read about these faiths , we would understand that some are flexible , others are so rigid you can hardly function without one sin or another.

As Thomas has said , the similarities between faiths are striking at times.

How many people know that Muslims see the Qu'ran as the 3rd book in the set beginning with The Torah?

As Thomas said , words do not enable you to understand any religion , how can you experience Nibbana or Enlightenment from a few pages of material ?

However , studying religion without a neutral standpoint will always lead to some form of favouritsim or another.

At this point I completely forgot the reason for my post....

Edited June 28, 2005 by chonabot

[sunglasses]

Religion...promoted as a loving, caring and peacfull institution...

what a load of rubish...more like the route of all evil...

If I could write a religious book it should say two things...

Be nice to each other and have fun...

[chonabot]

Be nice to each other and have fun... 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now there's a good starting point for a new day...

[The Gentleman Scamp]

However , studying religion without a neutral standpoint will always lead to some form of favouritsim or another.

I like this quote from Chonabot above and I also like the one below from Sunglasses.

Be nice to each other and have fun

What do you do if you are against religion and you return to somebody you love only to find they have been.. erm..

Contaminated?

I suppose I will need to adapt - at the end of the day she's doing better in life than I have and has more self discipline.

Edited June 28, 2005 by The Gentleman Scamp

[Thomas_Merton]

Be nice to each other and have fun... 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Now there's a good starting point for a new day...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

..and it could be developed in many ways:

One way could be - "love your neighbour as yourself" as Christ said.

Or another way - Buddhism teaches that wisdom should be developed with compassion. At one extreme, you could be a good-hearted fool and at the other extreme, you could attain knowledge without any emotion. Buddhism uses the middle path to develop both. The highest wisdom is seeing that in reality, all phenomena are incomplete, impermanent and do not constitute a fixed entity. True wisdom is not simply believing what we are told but instead experiencing and understanding truth and reality. Wisdom requires an open, objective, unbigoted mind. The Buddhist path requires courage, patience, flexibility and intelligence.

Compassion includes qualities of sharing, readiness to give comfort, sympathy, concern, caring. In Buddhism, we can really understand others, when we can really understand ourselves, through wisdom.

Edited June 28, 2005 by Thomas_Merton

[chownah]

Scampy, I think you should get baptized (although I kind of think this has already happened) and join the same church as your person of interest. Praise the Lord once a week and throw tuppence in the basket. You'll feel alot better....probably because then you'll get laid at least once a week which is probably the source of your current angst. But of course I'm probably wrong on this....my ability to decipher such deeply coded messages as your topics and related posts is very poor to none existent. I don't think that this christian bashing topic of yours was created just to bash christians....after all its all been done before many times over and with much greater elan....like the romans......cue the christians, cue the lions, let the fun begin. Now thats christian bashing in style....something I'm sure you are capable of.....but you don't pull it off because the issue is somewhere else...maybe your pants.

Edited June 28, 2005 by chownah

[Thomas_Merton]

...

Please read Thomas Merton. He more than any, as a result of his vast experience, has seen the similarities between the way of Christ and the way of the Buddha, and because of his vast talents as a writer, has come closest to describing this ecumenism.

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just so there is no misunderstanding, I am talking about the real Thomas Merton

[chonabot]

...

Please read Thomas Merton. He more than any, as a result of his vast experience, has seen the similarities between the way of Christ and the way of the Buddha, and because of his vast talents as a writer, has come closest to describing this ecumenism.

...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just so there is no misunderstanding, I am talking about the real Thomas Merton

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[The Gentleman Scamp]

You'll feel alot better....probably because then you'll get laid at least once a week which is probably the source of your current angst.

the issue is somewhere else...maybe your pants.

I have no right to be offended at your assumption, however, it shouldn't make me laugh like it just did, but it did because it couldn't be further from the truth.

Since when have love and labido been an issue in the developing stages of a relationship?

We did the sex part four years ago, there's no problem with the relationship which is currently on ice until I have completed my work overseas and bid farewell to Thailand, but I only see religion as the one thing that will cause friction between us.

As far as I can see, I am the one with the problem because she never brings the subject up, but I did because it was on my mind and I thought it best to let her know where I stood and to make it quite clear than no human being, not even one as exceptionally intelligent as her, would change me.

She is half Arab and against the muslim religion, but back when I first knew her she was against ALL religion, and we could at least have a beer together, nowadays she doesn't even swear anymore, but she's still pretty cool and has retained her razor sharp wit, she can't lose that. ..In fact, she hasn't lost any of her personality, only her views have changed to make us slightly different than we had been, and I don't feel quite the same unity between us I once did.

When it comes to love, it doesn't matter about sex, or being able to get drunk together or how much anybody earns or how good they look - these are all selfish requirements that are all too common in todays fashion, celebrity and material generation.

She is emancipated from all that which is wonderful and I am the selfish one by wanting her to be just a little bit naughty, and I don't know why, it's stupid, and it's a glitch I need to repair myself.

On my first date with this girl back in 2001, we went to the pub and just after I ordered the drinks, five police officers burst in through the door and pinned her to the floor, searching her for a weapon (which she didn't have).

That was the moment I knew I had met somebody really special, which is not normal is it.

I always fantasized about a 'She and I Vs the world' kind of relationship - not me Vs her christian pals relationship, but of course I am not too stupid to see that she has changed for the better.

Alas it is me who is not quite there yet.

Edited June 28, 2005 by The Gentleman Scamp

[chownah]

You'll feel alot better....probably because then you'll get laid at least once a week which is probably the source of your current angst.

the issue is somewhere else...maybe your pants.

I have no right to be offended at your assumption, however, it shouldn't make me laugh like it just did, but it did because it couldn't be further from the truth.

Since when have love and labido been an issue in the developing stages of a relationship?

We did the sex part four years ago, there's no problem with the relationship which is currently on ice until I have completed my work overseas and bid farewell to Thailand, but I only see religion as the one thing that will cause friction between us.

As far as I can see, I am the one with the problem because she never brings the subject up, but I did because it was on my mind and I thought it best to let her know where I stood and to make it quite clear than no human being, not even one as exceptionally intelligent as her, would change me.

She is half Arab and against the muslim religion, but back when I first knew her she was against ALL religion, and we could at least have a beer together, nowadays she doesn't even swear anymore, but she's still pretty cool and has retained her razor sharp wit, she can't lose that. ..In fact, she hasn't lost any of her personality, only her views have changed to make us slightly different than we had been, and I don't feel quite the same unity between us I once did.

When it comes to love, it doesn't matter about sex, or being able to get drunk together or how much anybody earns or how good they look - these are all selfish requirements that are all too common in todays fashion, celebrity and material generation.

She is emancipated from all that which is wonderful and I am the selfish one by wanting her to be just a little bit naughty, and I don't know why, it's stupid, and it's a glitch I need to repair myself.

On my first date with this girl back in 2001, we went to the pub and just after I ordered the drinks, five police officers burst in through the door and pinned her to the floor, searching her for a weapon (which she didn't have).

That was the moment I knew I had met somebody really special, which is not normal is it.

I always fantasized about a 'She and I Vs the world' kind of relationship - not me Vs her christian pals relationship, but of course I am not too stupid to see that she has changed for the better.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Have you talked to her about this? Does she go to church? Have you gone with her?...as an experiment?...with her knowing you are doing it as an experiment or experiential undertaking and not out of a sense of religion? Perhaps if you shared a bit of her experience you could discuss its meaning with her and help her avoid that long slide down the chutes of salvation and into the dark pits of mindless mass befuddlement. Being a christian doesn't have to be so bad....may mother was a christian and a great person...you'd never know she was a christian...went around most of her life helping people in small ways. Christian like her are great people but you don't find many of them but they do exist...there is hope..but I think you might be a good influence on her at this point in that you can bring the broader perspective and help keep the professional christians from attaching the blinders....maybe....

[The Gentleman Scamp]

Christian like her are great people but you don't find many of them but they do exist...

She is one of those, at the moment.

Perhaps if you shared a bit of her experience you could discuss its meaning with her and help her avoid that long slide down the chutes of salvation and into the dark pits of mindless mass befuddlement.

Certainly not a bad idea... After all, people are influenced by those around them and christians love people who had problems in the past and although the group and the newcomer don't realize it - it becomes dominating.

I think you might be a good influence on her at this point in that you can bring the broader perspective and help keep the professional christians from attaching the blinders....maybe....

I can't be a good influence yet because my opinion is not nutural enough, but I just hope that not all her friends are christian because that is unhealthy, and no matter how much it is denied, they do tend to alienate those who don't follow as they say.

When somebody believes something, it is wrong to want to turn them against it if it is good for them, and I wouldn't wish to do that - however, if they believe in something too strongly, then it is impossible to make them see it, even if you have an impeccable arguement against - it's like telling a devoted mother that her son is a bully, she won't 'lose face' and allow herself to believe it, even if deep inside she knows it.

[Thomas_Merton]

I am beginning to get some bad vibes about your lady and her friends, Scamp.

It’s difficult to see how much of this is your prejudices and how much is the awful reality of this young woman’s beliefs.

But if the way you describe her friends and their possible effect on your relationship is accurate, your young lady is mixed up with a bunch of Jesus people whose PC views and fundamental fascism is as near to Jesus Christ as the government in Burma is to Buddhism.

Beware, there is a right-wing strain of Christianity set on pushing all enlightenment back to a time when a puritan soldier in Cromwell’s army would be considered risqué.

I would humbly say, this is not Christianity. Central to Christianity, as it is also central to Buddhism, is tolerance.

Get yourself armed for any eventual battles with onward marching Christian soldiers. Get hold of a copy of “On being a Christian” by Hans Kung (this German Catholic theologian discusses all issues about being a Christian from a very radical point of view. So much so the Pope had him fired from his job). There is no better book on the modern dilemma of being a Christian.

But more especially – and bringing this discussion back to the title of this forum – check out the essential elements of Buddhism and discus these points with your lady.

If she is unable to accommodate these essentials with her professed Christian views then there is something very radically wrong with her picture of the world.

Whatever this is, it will most certainly destroy your relationship.

[The Gentleman Scamp]

Basically, we're just getting to know each other all over again this time round and our future will depend onmy decision to settle here early next year.

There's absolutely no bad vibes about her, and I've only met a couple of her friends but they seem to be the type who would be completely lost without their faith and only associate with others of the same ilk which is why I assume they are so keen for 'newbies' to join in their reindeer games and beliefs.

I am too keen for a fight in the company of these people, I am always polite but can't help having an almost condescending arguement with them but it does wind me up how they are so cock sure of themselves.

I say pray for the inevitable and behold it shall happen.

Seriously though, if it's okay for them to preach the gospel to whoever they see fit, is it alright for me to preach sanity and normality?

What is most fustrating is that I feel some of the equality between us has gone and that I couldn't become a Christian if I wanted to.

Would God really want me to force myself to attend church and read the bible and be as uncomfortable as I am with it all?

They always assume rebelion, but it's not... If God spoke to me and asked me to do the above I wouldn't ignore him, but if he can't even be arsed to show himself once in a while then &lt;deleted&gt; to him.

[Gohonzon]

As a practicing Buddhist I don't think it the place of Buddhists to denigrate any religion in the manner of some of the posts on this thread (whether Buddhism can be defined as a religion is another question).

As Buddhists it's our role to create an environment of creative dialogue rather than to show disrespect. The bodhisattva way is to see the buddha-nature in all things and those of other religions as aspiring to the Truth.

"Even if you search in all direction

There are no other vehicles

Except for the appropriate means preached by the Buddha"~ Lotus Sutra

The notion of appropriate means is prescriptive about how we should behave in order to contribute to the good. Showing respect is a fundamental way of behaving in order to contribute to the good : ultimately, in Mahayana Buddhism, the salvation of all beings.

In fact Nichiren Daishonin is scathing about acting in any other manner but than with repect-

"When in public debate, although the teachings that you advocate are perfectly consistent with the truth, you should never on that account be impolite or abusive, or display a conceited attitude. Such conduct would be disgraceful. Order your thoughts, words and actions carefully and be prudent when you meet with others in debate."~Teaching, Practice and Proof

Whatever the faults in others belief systems we are to show the wisdom and compassion that are expressions of our practice.

Thomas_Merton

I note that you compare religion with Marx (and Freud) in a negative sense. Interestingly there may be more in common with some of Marx's philosophical works and Buddhism than with theistic religions. See for instance:

http://www.uq.net.au/slsoc/bsq/marxbud.htm

[The_Moog]

If God spoke to me and asked me to do the above I wouldn't ignore him, but if he can't even be arsed to show himself once in a while then &lt;deleted&gt; to him.

Looks like someone is missing ladyboys in a most profound way.

[The Gentleman Scamp]

If God spoke to me and asked me to do the above I wouldn't ignore him, but if he can't even be arsed to show himself once in a while then &lt;deleted&gt; to him.

Looks like someone is missing ladyboys in a most profound way.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Oh how we've missed you Moog.

[Oleg_Rus]

I would humbly say, this is not Christianity. Central to Christianity, as it is also central to Buddhism, is tolerance.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No.wrong. this is MOST INTOLERANT religion.

btw, instead of reading books from german guy with his opinion on JC adventures, why not read the BOOK intead ?

Whatever this is, it will most certainly destroy your relationship.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No, definately wrong. Finding common ground in relationship with bring it to higher level, much purer.

[The Gentleman Scamp]

Why do so many of us need religion?

It is because we are the most arrogant and stupid species on Earth and we can't accept that we don't have all the answers - we hate it that we don't know everything.

Well tough shit - we don't.

We couldn't handle looking up at the moon for years wondering what it was like and fair enough, we invented the rocket and we went there.

However, life after death is a concept that sounds too good to not be true, and we want it to be true because it would give life a meaning, but the fact is - we don't really know, and if we did there wouldn't be so many opposing religions.

But we don't know.

So we make it up and mould it to suit our own personal reqirements.