(In-Sink-Erator) Garbage Disposals

[Ahnsahn]

What are your recommendations and experience with using (in-sink) garbage disposals here in LOS? Our house electric is 'earthed' (grounded). but do they work well with septic tanks?

[elkangorito]

Not a good idea to use with a septic system as the food scraps will increase the amount of solids in the tank, which could mean more frequent pump-outs.

[dumball]

A properly installed septic system should not need pumping , only holding tanks , used septic for ovr 20 years , used to put a product called 'Septo' down the toilet once a month , never had a problem .

[Crossy]

A properly installed septic system should not need pumping , only holding tanks , used septic for ovr 20 years , used to put a product called 'Septo' down the toilet once a month , never had a problem .

Did you have an in-sink garbage disposal??

[elkangorito]

A properly installed septic system should not need pumping , only holding tanks , used septic for ovr 20 years , used to put a product called 'Septo' down the toilet once a month , never had a problem .

Do you suggest that these so called 'holding tanks' are not part of the septic system?

With respect dumball, I suggest that you look into how the many varieties of septic systems work. There are reasons why some septic systems have long pump-out cycles. These reasons are associated with lack of use, size of system compared to input volume (system too big), incorrect operation of system (solids escaping elsewhere). In these cases, the system is operating incorrectly in some way &/or under performing.

Even aerobic systems need the ocassional pump-out & these systems have a technically lower pump-out frequency than the old anaerobic system.

Anyway, undigested vegetable matter takes quite a while to degrade in an anaerobic system, & will definitely add to the sludge build-up.

[noise]

I am going to use all the houses I know about in Chiangmai (and this includes a large Land & Houses development) as a source for the following statements of "fact".

Only toilets dump into the septic tank.

All other water (grey water) flows into a trough around the perimeter of the house and then dumps into another trough along the street (usually under the sidewalk). At my in-laws house and friends' houses in older/cheaper developments, it is a exposed one. At my house, it is a closed concrete pipe about 6" in diameter buried some 12"-18" below ground. Even with the water from the showers and bathroom sinks and throwing all garbage in the trash, there are still enough very small food particles flowing out of the kitchen sink into it to draw cockroaches.

We have all walked along sidewalks and smelled the odor coming up through the air holes. We have all seen street workers pulling up access covers after a flooding and cleaning solids out. That tells me that, even with the contributions from all the houses/buildings in the area, there is not enough water flow to keep them clean. That smell and build up does not occur over night. So I extrapolate from that that it would be too risky to use a garbage disposal because I would never have sufficient water flow to flush the food particles all the way out to the street. Best case, it would just increase the food available to the cockroaches and, therefore, increase the population; worst case it would build up and block the pipe (something I definitely do not want).

[dumball]

I am not familiar with the technical aspect of septic sytems , I only know from my own experience that the system I had , never needed pumping in 25 years , only the holding tank was pumped periodically because it was a separate system for what was called 'Grey water' . My daughter is on a similar system and she has found it to be the same , but I did notice that neighbors with smaller sytems did need thiers punped on occassion . A friend of mine had a garberator and had problems keeping it cleared , he was on the city sewage system , it was finally replaced by the supply company as being defective as it had nothing to do with the city sytem .

As an adendum , did any of you live on my property or did I ? Maybe yours was Thai built , mine was not .

[Ahnsahn]

A properly installed septic system should not need pumping , only holding tanks , used septic for ovr 20 years , used to put a product called 'Septo' down the toilet once a month , never had a problem .

Do you suggest that these so called 'holding tanks' are not part of the septic system?

With respect dumball, I suggest that you look into how the many varieties of septic systems work. There are reasons why some septic systems have long pump-out cycles. These reasons are associated with lack of use, size of system compared to input volume (system too big), incorrect operation of system (solids escaping elsewhere). In these cases, the system is operating incorrectly in some way &/or under performing.

Even aerobic systems need the occasional pump-out & these systems have a technically lower pump-out frequency than the old anaerobic system.

Anyway, undigested vegetable matter takes quite a while to degrade in an anaerobic system, & will definitely add to the sludge build-up.

That's the first theory that came to my un-scientific mind, but I was hoping to learn that perhaps someone has had success using a high quality(?) garbage disposal (especially designed for septic tanks?). I don't like leaving food scrapes in the garbage at my house and especially in this tropical climate.

I am going to use all the houses I know about in Chiangmai (and this includes a large Land & Houses development) as a source for the following statements of "fact".

Only toilets dump into the septic tank.

All other water (grey water) flows into a trough around the perimeter of the house and then dumps into another trough along the street (usually under the sidewalk). At my in-laws house and friends' houses in older/cheaper developments, it is a exposed one. At my house, it is a closed concrete pipe about 6" in diameter buried some 12"-18" below ground. Even with the water from the showers and bathroom sinks and throwing all garbage in the trash, there are still enough very small food particles flowing out of the kitchen sink into it to draw cockroaches.

We have all walked along sidewalks and smelled the odor coming up through the air holes. We have all seen street workers pulling up access covers after a flooding and cleaning solids out. That tells me that, even with the contributions from all the houses/buildings in the area, there is not enough water flow to keep them clean. That smell and build up does not occur over night. So I extrapolate from that that it would be too risky to use a garbage disposal because I would never have sufficient water flow to flush the food particles all the way out to the street. Best case, it would just increase the food available to the cockroaches and, therefore, increase the population; worst case it would build up and block the pipe (something I definitely do not want).

Though my house is far outside any city boundaries, I take your point. In fact, I would like to know that I would be avoiding those very problems if I were to install a garbage disposal! I would gladly trade a 'somewhat' more frequent sludge buildup for the peace of mind of having more 'cleaner', food-free trash.

[elkangorito]

Compost heaps are excellent for vegetable waste.

http://www.abc.net.au/gardening/stories/s2021035.htm

http://heartgarden.com.au/compost.asp

[NancyL]

I agree with the "no-go" posters on this question.

I've lived in many houses in the U. S. -- all with kitchen, in-sink garbage disposals and most with septic systems. Our last U.S. home had at 1970s-era septic system on land that had a high water table. Fortunately, the soil was sandy and for most of the year it wasn't a problem. I soon learned, however, that during periods of heavy rain I couldn't use the garbage disposer and if the rain persisted, I had to go and do laundry at the laundromat in town, rather than have our laundry water go into the septic system. I think if we'd stayed there, I would have investigated how to move the laundry and shower water out of the septic system to use for garden watering.

I don't know about costs for a in-sink-erator unit in Thailand. In the U.S. they were fairly cheap and I agreed to have our kitchen remodeling contractor put on in, suspecting that I wouldn't use it during some months of the year. I was right. At least it didn't create a flow restriction at the sink.

[ballpoint]

...do they work well with septic tanks?

I would never try and put a septic tank through an insinkerator.

[longball53098]

From my 5 years of living here in LOS and seeing the various house plumbing systems I can say I have not seen a house where the kitchen sink is plumbed in to the septic tank. It seems that when a drainage system is installed the kitchen sink drain is plumbed to a grey water drain pipe/field. It is becoming more common to see the "grease" trap boxes being used and I think in some provinces where they actually have a permitting process this grease trap "must" show up on the plans submitted for permit. Whether it really gets installed is a different matter.

If I was building a house as I just did I would install one of the grease food traps. We have one on our new house now and its traps most food particles that get past the sink strainer and as the name implies it "traps" any grease that gets down the drain. The overflow of this box goes directly to the drain pipe out to the street system.

I would not spend money on a garbage disposer as this generates too much waste for you're plumbing to handle. Besides if you have a Thai wife and family they most likely try to re use the food scraps from cooking etc. and use in the garden like my wife does. She even recycles the dish wash water and carries it out to water the garden.

[Ahnsahn]

Compost heaps are excellent for vegetable waste.

http://www.abc.net.a...es/s2021035.htm

http://heartgarden.com.au/compost.asp

This (or an inground compost) looks to be a good alternative if I don't install a garbage disposal.

I agree with the "no-go" posters on this question.

I've lived in many houses in the U. S. -- all with kitchen, in-sink garbage disposals and most with septic systems. Our last U.S. home had at 1970s-era septic system on land that had a high water table. Fortunately, the soil was sandy and for most of the year it wasn't a problem. I soon learned, however, that during periods of heavy rain I couldn't use the garbage disposer and if the rain persisted, I had to go and do laundry at the laundromat in town, rather than have our laundry water go into the septic system. I think if we'd stayed there, I would have investigated how to move the laundry and shower water out of the septic system to use for garden watering.

I don't know about costs for a in-sink-erator unit in Thailand. In the U.S. they were fairly cheap and I agreed to have our kitchen remodeling contractor put one in, suspecting that I wouldn't use it during some months of the year. I was right. At least it didn't create a flow restriction at the sink.

....so far, it's looking like mostly 'NOs" for an in sink garbage disposal......

From my 5 years of living here in LOS and seeing the various house plumbing systems I can say I have not seen a house where the kitchen sink is plumbed in to the septic tank. It seems that when a drainage system is installed the kitchen sink drain is plumbed to a grey water drain pipe/field. It is becoming more common to see the "grease" trap boxes being used and I think in some provinces where they actually have a permitting process this grease trap "must" show up on the plans submitted for permit. Whether it really gets installed is a different matter.

If I was building a house as I just did I would install one of the grease food traps. We have one on our new house now and its traps most food particles that get past the sink strainer and as the name implies it "traps" any grease that gets down the drain. The overflow of this box goes directly to the drain pipe out to the street system.

I would not spend money on a garbage disposer as this generates too much waste for you're plumbing to handle. Besides if you have a Thai wife and family they most likely try to re use the food scraps from cooking etc. and use in the garden like my wife does. She even recycles the dish wash water and carries it out to water the garden.

The concept of a 'grease food trap' is a new one to me! I will have to to determine if my house has one. Does it have to be periodically emptied or cleaned?

[longball53098]

Compost heaps are excellent for vegetable waste.

http://www.abc.net.a...es/s2021035.htm

http://heartgarden.com.au/compost.asp

This (or an inground compost) looks to be a good alternative if I don't install a garbage disposal.

I agree with the "no-go" posters on this question.

I've lived in many houses in the U. S. -- all with kitchen, in-sink garbage disposals and most with septic systems. Our last U.S. home had at 1970s-era septic system on land that had a high water table. Fortunately, the soil was sandy and for most of the year it wasn't a problem. I soon learned, however, that during periods of heavy rain I couldn't use the garbage disposer and if the rain persisted, I had to go and do laundry at the laundromat in town, rather than have our laundry water go into the septic system. I think if we'd stayed there, I would have investigated how to move the laundry and shower water out of the septic system to use for garden watering.

I don't know about costs for a in-sink-erator unit in Thailand. In the U.S. they were fairly cheap and I agreed to have our kitchen remodeling contractor put one in, suspecting that I wouldn't use it during some months of the year. I was right. At least it didn't create a flow restriction at the sink.

....so far, it's looking like mostly 'NOs" for an in sink garbage disposal......

From my 5 years of living here in LOS and seeing the various house plumbing systems I can say I have not seen a house where the kitchen sink is plumbed in to the septic tank. It seems that when a drainage system is installed the kitchen sink drain is plumbed to a grey water drain pipe/field. It is becoming more common to see the "grease" trap boxes being used and I think in some provinces where they actually have a permitting process this grease trap "must" show up on the plans submitted for permit. Whether it really gets installed is a different matter.

If I was building a house as I just did I would install one of the grease food traps. We have one on our new house now and its traps most food particles that get past the sink strainer and as the name implies it "traps" any grease that gets down the drain. The overflow of this box goes directly to the drain pipe out to the street system.

I would not spend money on a garbage disposer as this generates too much waste for you're plumbing to handle. Besides if you have a Thai wife and family they most likely try to re use the food scraps from cooking etc. and use in the garden like my wife does. She even recycles the dish wash water and carries it out to water the garden.

The concept of a 'grease food trap' is a new one to me! I will have to to determine if my house has one. Does it have to be periodically emptied or cleaned?

Just like a septic tank only much smaller. Next time you are shopping in a HomeMart or HomePro or one of the DIY stores look around where they stock the water tanks and septic tanks and you most likely will see these items. Small rectangular shaped black PVC or some plastic material same as the septic tanks. They range in sizes from maybe 5 or 10 liters up to maybe 50 or 60 liters.

You can view some made by DOS here: Grease Trap

Yes they have a strainer basket of sorts that will need to be cleaned out periodically

[Ahnsahn]

From what l have seen of Thai waste plumbing l would forget waste disposal. My system gets blocked every year with just stuff that creeps by the sink strainer. In fact having a guy come to un block it again tomorrow.

Gotcha'!

What is the general name for guys who do this kind of job and where would I go to hire one? I think I will get my system checked out.

Also, the floor drain in the master shower is plugged(?) and drains slowly while the floor drain in the other shower emits sewage like odors but drains good. I put 2 large cans of drain opener into the plugged drain w/o any apparent effect. Can anyone recommend any remedies?

[longball53098]

It sounds like you need to find one of the local DIY forums such as CTH or TD and do some reading in the plumbing sections. Many good tips on how the Thai plumbers install the pipes and other pieces that cause these issues.

Most if not all drain lines are buried in the floor and not easy to deal with should a problem arise. They never install P traps or proper vents to allow proper drainage. In you're case the smell is most likely due to sewer gasses coming back up the floor drains because of no P trap.

As for the floor drain you will have to pull up the cover and screen and see if you can see what may be blocking it and if its close to the entry point or deeper in the pipe. If the drain is in a floor that access to the bottom side is possible such as a service crawl space than a plumber can get to the pipes to fix the blockage.

[longball53098]

Sorry system glitch and double post

Edited July 11, 2010 by longball53098

[simon43]

The use of grease-traps is highly recommended by me. When I built a small hotel some 5 years ago, I installed grease traps on all the greywater pipes (from shower and washbasin), and larger greasetraps on the kitchen greywater pipes. They are very easy to maintain - just lift the lid every few months and scoop out the grease, hair etc. I had a total of 12 greasetrap boxes at the hotel.

They are not expensive and can save you a lot of problems with blocked septic tanks etc.

Simon

[dumball]

'transam' date='2010-07-10 20:11' timestamp='1278767467' post='3740893']

From what l have seen of Thai waste plumbing l would forget waste disposal. My system gets blocked every year with just stuff that creeps by the sink strainer. In fact having a guy come to un block it again tomorrow.

Having looked at exposed plumbing for drainage , I noticed something that apeared odd to me , many horizontal pipes are just that , horizontal , some even retrograde where the water needed to flow 'Uphill to drain away , pressure is needed to help fluids flow , any pressure originating from such places as the toilet system or a sink full of water being released at one time , is negated by these pipes that have little to no ANGLE to make use of this pressure .

Reading the report from one poster about a new housing estate he watched being built , the drainage from the house went into a collection system around the houes , this was connected to a street drainage system that expelled into the town drainage system . There is simply not enough fluid flow to evacuate the system properly , as there is no pressure generated by fluids running in an almost horizontal manner , just look at many roof collection troughs , they are angled in the opposite way of flow , Thai stick to the old TUBE angle qualifier instead of using a Spirit level , the best way to achieve a true angle factor .

Another reason for blockage in drains is what people pour down the sink , used cooking oil , vegetable peelings , remains of food etc , with no 'Angle of dangle', how do you expect these things to flush ? Pouring loads of boiling water will help in clearing the blockage that YOU CAUSED by pouring these items down the sink instead of into the toilet which is more adept at accepting them . I am afraid you are victims of plumbing by people who would be more aptly applied to street sweeping , just look outside in the street , even many gutters are not sloped correctly , workers need proper training to do a serviceable job , not just follow another who has no real idea of what he is about. .

Another excellent way of clearing blockages is a mixture of baking soda and white vinegar , forgot the ratio at this time but you can find it if you google , the mixture creates a boiling action at the trouble spot .

[simon43]

The use of grease-traps is highly recommended by me. When I built a small hotel some 5 years ago, I installed grease traps on all the greywater pipes (from shower and washbasin), and larger greasetraps on the kitchen greywater pipes. They are very easy to maintain - just lift the lid every few months and scoop out the grease, hair etc. I had a total of 12 greasetrap boxes at the hotel.

They are not expensive and can save you a lot of problems with blocked septic tanks etc.

Simon

[Ahnsahn]

From what l have seen of Thai waste plumbing l would forget waste disposal. My system gets blocked every year with just stuff that creeps by the sink strainer. In fact having a guy come to un block it again tomorrow.

Having looked at exposed plumbing for drainage, I noticed something that appeared odd to me, many horizontal pipes are just that, horizontal, some even retrograde where the water needed to flow 'Uphill to drain away, pressure is needed to help fluids flow, any pressure originating from such places as the toilet system or a sink full of water being released at one time, is negated by these pipes that have little to no ANGLE to make use of this pressure.

Reading the report from one poster about a new housing estate he watched being built, the drainage from the house went into a collection system around the house this was connected to a street drainage system that expelled into the town drainage system. There is simply not enough fluid flow to evacuate the system properly, as there is no pressure generated by fluids running in an almost horizontal manner just look at many roof collection troughs, they are angled in the opposite way of flow, Thai stick to the old TUBE angle qualifier instead of using a Spirit level, the best way to achieve a true angle factor .

Another reason for blockage in drains is what people pour down the sink, used cooking oil, vegetable peelings, remains of food etc, with no 'Angle of dangle', how do you expect these things to flush Pouring loads of boiling water will help in clearing the blockage that YOU CAUSED by pouring these items down the sink instead of into the toilet which is more adept at accepting them. I am afraid you are victims of plumbing by people who would be more aptly applied to street sweeping , just look outside in the street, even many gutters are not sloped correctly, workers need proper training to do a serviceable job, not just follow another who has no real idea of what he is about .

Another excellent way of clearing blockages is a mixture of baking soda and white vinegar , forgot the ratio at this time but you can find it if you google , the mixture creates a boiling action at the trouble spot.

Thanks for the drain cleaning tip: 'Pour 1/2 cup baking soda into the drain followed by 1/2 cup vinegar. Let set for a few minutes, Then pour a kettle of 6 or more cups of boiling water down the drain to flush it'.

Also, like electrical proficiency in LOS in general, drainage systems technology, unfortunately, seem to be of the same level.(?)

The use of grease-traps is highly recommended by me. When I built a small hotel some 5 years ago, I installed grease traps on all the grey- water pipes (from shower and washbasin), and larger grease-traps on the kitchen grey water pipes. They are very easy to maintain - just lift the lid every few months and scoop out the grease, hair etc. I had a total of 12 grease trap boxes at the hotel.

They are not expensive and can save you a lot of problems with blocked septic tanks etc.

Simon

Thanks for that point!

I am going to look and see if I have any grease traps built into my system. If not, I will look into the possibility of having some installed.

Do you know of any diagrams or photos showing the location of grease traps in typical residential houses?

[Crossy]

Here we go http://www.sydneywater.com.au/Publications/FactSheets/Installationguidelinesforgreasetraps.pdf

I'll move this to DIY as it's heading in that general direction and will stay on page 1 longer

[elkangorito]

I've found a document , which gives more detail & uses the same greasetrap as in the Sydney Water document.

http://www.halgan.com.au/pdf/Installation%20requirements%20for%20mgt.pdf

[Ahnsahn]

Here we go http://www.sydneywat...greasetraps.pdf

I'll move this to DIY as it's heading in that general direction and will stay on page 1 longer

I've found a document , which gives more detail & uses the same greasetrap as in the Sydney Water document.

http://www.halgan.co...20for%20mgt.pdf

Thanks for the links! Being from a 'Big City' with a huge regional sewage system and never having had to worry about drainage, this is fascinating new to me - coupled with the TIT factor!

[bkkbill]

If you think this is fascinating wait until you have to clean out that grease trap. I think you will find it closer to nauseating. :bah: