Phuket Air Captain Has No Work Permit

[Xanado]

This situation is no surprise.

The real motivation behind the unfortunate Captain not having a work permit is more basic than you would possibly beleive. It is, I suggest, a way to avoid the costs of paying for the permit and the subsequent liability under the Thai labour laws to pay the appropiate taxes.

Additionally it absolves the employer of any responsibility to provide any adequate insurance, i.e. medical. He is without the system. He is also unable to make any complaint about terms and conditions, because effectively there is no "contract" which Thai law requires for a company to employ an expatriate. Within that contract are sunset statements, terms of renumeration, which becomes an element of the Work Permit.

When you consider the amount of foreign pilots at all of these companies, and there are many, there is a considerable amount of money that the Thai G'ment is missing out on. Don't think for one minute that it is Phuket Air that is engaged in this practise, but other airline companies are as well. The net should be cast further.

The Thai pilots are within there rights to complain, and discounting the statement that they are primadona's I think any professional group within any country would make the same complaint.

These companies exploit the fact that aircrews general move in and out of countries and in so doing have a seperate instrument that facilitates that. Without going into details it is a conveinent way for such people to move from one county to another without the hassles of work permits. It is a unique industry, like the maritime industry, where it would defeat the purpose of having such permits just to transit a country. Now, therein lies crux of this issue, when does a transit, not become a transit. How long can you transit for.

Many countries have different interpretations on this, and it becomes a local Immigration policy on what to accept. What does Thailand accept? I don't know, because until now, many pilots have been in Thailand without those permits and working. Somebody is now obviously P1ssed off about it and the pilot is now wearing the can for it! I sincerely suggest that the Company bears the brunt of it's negligent actions in this regard, if it is found to be responsible.

What I do know is, that some of these companies "exploit" this legitimate means of entry and exit to benefit their operation, not to comply with the law or the spirit of the instrument for international crews transit. Again, with various interpretations of such instrument, it is open to abuse, both from the companies, immigration officers, policticians, or whowever can get involved.

I know this was abit of ramble, but at least this will put you into the picture of what is going on in the airlines in Thailand.

All comments and statements are my personal opinion based upon factual knowledge and first hand information.

[AmeriThai]

This situation is no surprise.

The real motivation behind the unfortunate Captain not having a work permit is more basic than you would possibly beleive. It is, I suggest, a way to avoid the costs of paying for the permit and the subsequent liability under the Thai labour laws to pay the appropiate taxes.

Additionally it absolves the employer of any responsibility to provide any adequate insurance, i.e. medical. He is without the system. He is also unable to make any complaint about terms and conditions, because effectively there is no "contract" which Thai law requires for a company to employ an expatriate. Within that contract are sunset statements, terms of renumeration, which becomes an element of the Work Permit.

When you consider the amount of foreign pilots at all of these companies, and there are many, there is a considerable amount of money that the Thai G'ment is missing out on. Don't think for one minute that it is Phuket Air that is engaged in this practise, but other airline companies are as well. The net should be cast further.

The Thai pilots are within there rights to complain, and discounting the statement that they are primadona's I think any professional group within any country would make the same complaint.

These companies exploit the fact that aircrews general move in and out of countries and in so doing have a seperate instrument that facilitates that. Without going into details it is a conveinent way for such people to move from one county to another without the hassles of work permits. It is a unique industry, like the maritime industry, where it would defeat the purpose of having such permits just to transit a country. Now, therein lies crux of this issue, when does a transit, not become a transit. How long can you transit for.

Many countries have different interpretations on this, and it becomes a local Immigration policy on what to accept. What does Thailand accept? I don't know, because until now, many pilots have been in Thailand without those permits and working. Somebody is now obviously P1ssed off about it and the pilot is now wearing the can for it! I sincerely suggest that the Company bears the brunt of it's negligent actions in this regard, if it is found to be responsible.

What I do know is, that some of these companies "exploit" this legitimate means of entry and exit to benefit their operation, not to comply with the law or the spirit of the instrument for international crews transit. Again, with various interpretations of such instrument, it is open to abuse, both from the companies, immigration officers, policticians, or whowever can get involved.

I know this was abit of ramble, but at least this will put you into the picture of what is going on in the airlines in Thailand.

All comments and statements are my personal opinion based upon factual knowledge and first hand information.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I don't think there's much doubt that many companies take advantage of loopholes in order to skirt the law to save a few baht. As such, I agree that the companies should be held accountable considering that the companies are the employers.

If a pilot has the required experience, licensing, work permit, etc. to fly domestic routes for a Thai owned airline, and the airline wants to hire him, then fine. However, you'd think if foreigner has the experience to fly a commercial airline, they'd be sharp enough to do some homework to make sure of what legal requirements he may need to comply with.

Who knows what this incident involved? Maybe Puket Air hired the pilot for a lot less than they'd pay a Thai pilot. Maybe Thai pilots were upset about it and want to press for changes that permit only Thai pilots to fly domestic routes. Regardless, if the pilot had a work permit, then I would think he'd still be flying. On the other hand, if Phuket Air has been having a variety of other problems, then this might be a way to either force them into complying or close the company.

[manjara]

Quote by Pink Floyd - Learning To Fly...    

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

...or Tom Petty...

[Flysiam]

I know this was abit of ramble, but at least this will put you into the picture of what is going on in the airlines in Thailand.

All comments and statements are my personal opinion based upon factual knowledge and first hand information.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ramble to be sure. Then your first hand information surely must tell you that the pilots of these airlines are not necessarily paid less than their Thai counterparts (unless you look into the company's books - good luck). Generally speaking the Thai companies hire foreign pilots because there are just not enough 'qualified' Thais to fly the planes. That may change someday - but until it does there will be foreign pilots flying domestic routes in this country. I have been on both sides of this fence (is that first hand enough?) and I see nothing wrong with a foreign pilot flying in any country. Especially when they are more qualified and capable to do the job - sadly thoughI will admit that some of these Thai companies tend to hire some rather shady, questionable folks as well.

I will not 'ramble' - the blame lies directly on the company and the Thai government - if they wanted their money so bad they wouldn't make it so they had to jump through 20 hoops - backwards - to get what they know they wil eventually give anyways. I am just happy not to be in that position anymore!!!!!

[AmeriThai]

I know this was abit of ramble, but at least this will put you into the picture of what is going on in the airlines in Thailand.

All comments and statements are my personal opinion based upon factual knowledge and first hand information.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ramble to be sure. Then your first hand information surely must tell you that the pilots of these airlines are not necessarily paid less than their Thai counterparts (unless you look into the company's books - good luck). Generally speaking the Thai companies hire foreign pilots because there are just not enough 'qualified' Thais to fly the planes. That may change someday - but until it does there will be foreign pilots flying domestic routes in this country. I have been on both sides of this fence (is that first hand enough?) and I see nothing wrong with a foreign pilot flying in any country. Especially when they are more qualified and capable to do the job - sadly thoughI will admit that some of these Thai companies tend to hire some rather shady, questionable folks as well.

I will not 'ramble' - the blame lies directly on the company and the Thai government - if they wanted their money so bad they wouldn't make it so they had to jump through 20 hoops - backwards - to get what they know they wil eventually give anyways. I am just happy not to be in that position anymore!!!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

You stated what was going through my own mind, that foreign pilots are hired because there simply aren't enough qualified Thai pilots. That doesn't explain why the pilot in question didn't have a work permit. It should be the responsibility of the company to make sure a foreign employee has all the permits required, which evidently they didn't bother with. TIT. So the pilot ends up as the one that gets the boot.

Edited July 2, 2005 by AmeriThai

[HarryHacker]

Just love the English, didn't they learned you more better than that?

"Phuket Air captain catched with no work permit"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Artisi,

if you are going to complain about the grammatical error of using "catched" instead of "caught", you should at least make sure that your own use of the English language is not even worse. It is "Teach" not "learned". It is totally wrong to say "more better", it is just simply "better", when used in this context

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

d00d... do you think he might have been joking around a little bit?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Right over Estrada's head, just like the Pilot without the WP

[Martin]

Flysiam says (about the issuance of Work Permits, as far as I can tell):

"if they wanted their money so bad they wouldn't make it so they had to jump through 20 hoops - backwards - to get what they know they wil eventually give anyways"

First point (about 'them' wanting your money): Does the Ministry of Labour charge for Work Permits? I thought they were free----but maybe my employer was paying on my behalf.

Second point (about the Thai bureaucracy in general): shouldn't we expect that a developing country will only have a 'developing' bureaucracy?

If Thailand had got to the stage of a highly-efficient, streamlined bureaucracy, then it would have got to the 'high-wages' stage of development, too.

And we wouldn't be so happy to be here!

We can't 'have our cake and eat it'. If we want streamlined bureaucracy, we will have to go away and pay Singapore prices.

[Scott]

Yes, you do have to pay for work permits. I don't know how much it cost, but it's not a lot of money. A few years ago it was 1,000 Baht but was supposed to go up to something like 10,000 baht--I never heard if it actually did or not, but I am guessing it's not 10,000 baht.

Most employers pay for the work permit. It is a big hassle to get and a lot of paper work involved. I've never had to do it myself, as my employer takes care of it, but has a designated staff person who does nothing except take care of permits. That person, who is on excellent terms with immigration, sometimes gets major hassles from them.

People who have to get their own have some real nightmares to report. All the way from having no problem one year, to having to leave the country the next!

No excuse for an airline, who wouldn/should know the scoop on foreign employees.

[JimsKnight]

Do flight attendants from AA, BA,Qantas, Gulf Air, Garuda etc who fly into Bangkok and do leave the airport to stay in Hotels all have a Thai work permit?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think those guys are exempt due to aggreements with the government, and due to the face that airports are often considered 'Border Zones'.

[Axel]

The difference is being a foreign pilot flying for a Thai - registered airline on Thai domestic routes. This means being locally employed and working in the country.

Than, I believe, their are made exemptions for international flights connecting two local airports before going abroad. E.g. Phuket-Bangkok-Europe. On these flights you will find foreign pilots, however, the airline has no local traffic rights, means they cannot accept passengers between Phuket and Bangkok, only. (stayover is ok)

[Flysiam]

Do flight attendants from AA, BA,Qantas, Gulf Air, Garuda etc who fly into Bangkok and do leave the airport to stay in Hotels all have a Thai work permit?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I think those guys are exempt due to aggreements with the government, and due to the face that airports are often considered 'Border Zones'.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

They are simply transiting Aircrew - no visas... they don't even get their passports stamped at all. They are on what is known as General Declaration - they sign in and out of the country. Thats all.

[eddieold]

Just love the English, didn't they learned you more better than that?

"Phuket Air captain catched with no work permit"

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Just love the 'Artisi', did they not teach you better than that?

[Martin]

Message for Artisi: Maybe you could get George to find one of those little yellow things that would express 'sarcasm'.

[Dah fahrang]

I know this was abit of ramble, but at least this will put you into the picture of what is going on in the airlines in Thailand.

All comments and statements are my personal opinion based upon factual knowledge and first hand information.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Generally speaking the Thai companies hire foreign pilots because there are just not enough 'qualified' Thais to fly the planes. That may change someday - but until it does there will be foreign pilots flying domestic routes in this country.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Problem easily solved.

On the shortest of straight stretches of road, Bangkok taxi drivers manage to get to take off speed quite easily - they know the airport quite well, and skilfully manouevre through the tightest of spaces without ripping the sides of the taxi off (unlike Thai Airways pilots, who get to the runway threshold to discover their aileron is still attached to a Singapore Airlines aircraft)!

C'mon - many of these taxi drivers have ThaI ID's - have plenty of 'flying' hours, and, with the forecast hike in taxi fares, many will soon be unemployed.

Give 'em a chance! Phuket Air, I'm sure will jump at my suggestion.

[Flysiam]

Problem easily solved.

On the shortest of straight stretches of road, Bangkok taxi drivers manage to get to take off speed quite easily - they know the airport quite well, and skilfully manouevre through the tightest of spaces without ripping the sides of the taxi off (unlike Thai Airways pilots, who get to the runway threshold to discover their aileron is still attached to a Singapore Airlines aircraft)!

C'mon - many of these taxi drivers have ThaI ID's - have plenty of 'flying' hours, and, with the forecast hike in taxi fares, many will soon be unemployed.

Give 'em a chance! Phuket Air, I'm sure will jump at my suggestion.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Crazy as it seems - someone that finally speaks with some sense and doesn't ramble on about they know nothing about! Hire the Taxi drivers!!!!!!

[Martin]

And will you sit behind them in the passenger cabin, flysiam?

(Although they may well do as well as one BA hiring. Some years ago, I was on BA10 and we arrived heavily (in an 'arrival', rather than a 'landing') at Changi. A smooth voice came on and said that he was the Captain and he apologised on BA's behalf for the big bump. But it was due to something that was beyond his control. He had no part in deciding who should replace those of them who were taking early retirement. But he was sorry that we had felt such a display of complete ineptitude by his First Officer. !!!)

[BPayette]

I think the work permit fee is up around 160,000 baht, unless you're married to a Thai, than it's "only" 90,000

[Axel]

I think the work permit fee is up around 160,000 baht, unless you're married to a Thai, than it's "only" 90,000

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Sounds interesting. Last time I checked a WP for short term cost Baht 700, for long term like 1 year Baht 3500.

[justaskdan]

Quite a range of cost quotes here for work permits. 700B to 160,000B.

How much does your work permit cost? Does it matter what industry you are in? More for pilots and less for IT professionals or ESL teachers? Aren't all work permits for 1 year, renewable every three months?

My work permit was 15,000 baht and took 5 months to receive and has to be renewed (for free) every three months for the first year. After that it is good for a year (with fee).

Edited July 4, 2005 by justaskdan

[DaveYo]

Do flight attendants from AA, BA,Qantas, Gulf Air, Garuda etc who fly into Bangkok and do leave the airport to stay in Hotels all have a Thai work permit?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The answer is no since these carriers are not and do not belong to Thailand.

A grey area can be found say Singapore sponsoring Phuket Air, which in effect Phuket belonging to Singapore will not require a work permit since the paychecks come from Singapore even tho Phuket Air came about and is in Thailand.

In this case if it is found that Phuket Air belongs to an outside carrier, then this Pilot does not need a work permit to satisfy Thailand.

The other issue which I read, I also argue that definitely outside Pilots are way the heck better VS Thai Pilots. Many reasons can contribute to support such, so for me, Thai Pilots have a way to go before they can really be considered good.

Daveyo

[DaveYo]

There is one other thing concerning this permit.

First if this pilot is living outside of Thailand, he is not required to have a work permit say Singapore owns Phuket. Therefore Phuket does not have to be required to provide such permit nor pay this pilot under Thai contract. He can be under Singapore contract thus Thai Government has not say so what so ever.

This stuff is a legal pull them in or push them out kind of deal.

Those in transit are not required to have permits because the layover does provide up to 24 hours in Thailand which falls under Transit as per se by the FAA.

Daveyo

[AmeriThai]

There is one other thing concerning this permit.

First if this pilot is living outside of Thailand, he is not required to have a work permit say Singapore owns Phuket.  Therefore Phuket does not have to be required to provide such permit nor pay this pilot under Thai contract.  He can be under Singapore contract thus Thai Government has not say so what so ever.

This stuff is a legal pull them in or push them out kind of deal. 

Those in transit are not required to have permits because the layover does provide up to 24 hours in Thailand which falls under Transit as per se by the FAA.

Daveyo

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Eh? The aviation authority in Thailand is the FAA?

[george]

Update:

Airline in trouble for work-permitless pilot

BANGKOK: -- Legal action will be taken against Phuket Airlines and an Indonesian pilot who was allowed to fly its aircraft without a work permit, according to Sombat Nivesrat, director of the Inspection and Job-Seekers Protection Division of the Labour Ministry's Employment Department.

Mr Sombat said he had invited a representative of the airline to testify about the allegation that an Indonesian pilot, identified only as Budi, was hired by the company as its pilot although the man did not have a work permit.

The airline's representative admitted the company only applied for a pilot instructor's work permit for the man on June 28, but had used the man to fly three flights due to a pilot shortage at the time.

Legal action will be taken against both the airline and its foreign employee, Mr Sombat said.

--The Nation 2005-07-06

[lingling]

The airline's representative admitted the company only applied for a pilot instructor's work permit for the man on June 28, but had used the man to fly three flights due to a pilot shortage at the time.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

My interpretation of that sentence is that he did have a work permit but with the occupation of "pilot instructor" rather than "pilot"...?

[Flysiam]

There is one other thing concerning this permit.

First if this pilot is living outside of Thailand, he is not required to have a work permit say Singapore owns Phuket.  Therefore Phuket does not have to be required to provide such permit nor pay this pilot under Thai contract.  He can be under Singapore contract thus Thai Government has not say so what so ever.

This stuff is a legal pull them in or push them out kind of deal. 

Those in transit are not required to have permits because the layover does provide up to 24 hours in Thailand which falls under Transit as per se by the FAA.

Daveyo

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I fear you suppose too much. If a pilot is flying a Thai registered aircraft on a Thai domestic route then he requires a Thai license - which, alas, requires a Thai work permit (for a foreign pilot)... Contract or no contract with a Thai airline (which Phuket is) whether or not the company is listed in Singapore or China or wherever (which most probably are anyway for some tax purpose) and despite whether the pilot is paid from Thailand or from a foreign country or where he claims to 'live' ...it matters not...the ellusive Thai work permit is a requirement.

*sigh*

[Flysiam]

And will you sit behind them in the passenger cabin, flysiam?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmmmm I would feel almost as safe behind a cab driver than some of the Thai pilots out there to be sure! But a pilot never feels as safe as he does when he himself is at the controls.... so....

[ludosiam65]

Here we are again - just about a year ago similar complaints against Air Asia, no result at that time, maybe because the owner of this Airline is PM of Thailand .........?

It's again like in animal farm: we are all equal, but some are more equal

[Pattaya_Fox]

Here we are again - just about a year ago similar complaints against Air Asia, no result at that time, maybe because the owner of this Airline is PM of Thailand .........?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Please explain what you mean???

[Considered Opinion]

If flight attendants are not required to have work permits what logic requires pilots to have one? Are they not both working in similar circumstances?

I love it... Logic and Thai in the one sentence.

[Considered Opinion]

There is one other thing concerning this permit.

First if this pilot is living outside of Thailand, he is not required to have a work permit say Singapore owns Phuket.  Therefore Phuket does not have to be required to provide such permit nor pay this pilot under Thai contract.  He can be under Singapore contract thus Thai Government has not say so what so ever.

This stuff is a legal pull them in or push them out kind of deal. 

Those in transit are not required to have permits because the layover does provide up to 24 hours in Thailand which falls under Transit as per se by the FAA.

Daveyo

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

No... the aviation authority in Thaivisa by his own declaration is Dave Yo, well known oil changer for US Airlines. Please note, he doesn't drive them, and they don't tell him anything about them, but say anything about aircraft or airlines and our very own guru on things air, springs to the fore, dribbles a bit and then goes quietly back to Khun Somboons Noddle Stand to wait for his little lovely to turn up and advise him on the latest moves in rental and car purchases, also visa requirements and work permits. After that he regales us with his in-depth knowledge.

I hope one day to see him read something he has read and then realise what he actually said, as opposed to what he actually meant. Mind you, I don't hold my breath for it.

Eh? The aviation authority in Thailand is the FAA?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>