Prostitution : Is It Wrong To Pay For Sex ?

[MiG16]

a large percentage of pay for sex people are content in their chosen profession.

473,

I cant answer that question specific to the profession in question, as I dont have enough exposure to the industry and the players, be it in Thailand or abroad.

I can, however, share my views on the general broader aspect your remark brings up.

to me: as with any job, there will always be challenges and perks (in addition to the basic salary you make), and ofcourse the financial and non-financial rewards.

just in the same way that you and I have different challenges associated with our different jobs, I believe the women in said profession would have theirs. we cant speak for everyone as to why they choose to do what they do. some maybe circumstances, some may be luck, some maybe factors they can control, some are not. (but again that applies to anyone does it not?)

I have had jobs that I chose to do, and been mostly happy with, but have aspects of it that I find unbearable. Did I quit straight away? not always. Did I always look for something better/different? sometime yes, sometime I just got comfortable in the status quo.

these days I am constantly looking for work and am prepared to do things below my skills level. would I consider the profession? not likely. not because I think its beneath me or whatever stigma is associated with it. but because my skills lie elsewhere, and I still have other avenues I would rather explore. if I didnt have any other skills, who knows. People do what we need to in order to survive. sure, there are ways to exist without resorting to sleeping with someone for money. but.......it is their bodies. if they are not harming anyone with what they do, who are we to say what they can or cant do?

how is it that we do not ever hear people raising questions about those who choose to work in security section in the war zone? soldiers dont have much choice to be involved in war. but how come we dont question the morality of those who, by choice and from what I hear - for a lot of money, enter into a profession that involves killing others?

Im not saying whether such profession should exist, or what the merits or disadvantages of them are, and I am in no way pointing fingers at anyone who might be engaged in that trade. it was an example that came to mind. Im sure there are other examples. the only point I am trying to make is - if we mostly let other people get on with their lives and businesses, why is it that we feel the need to give the women engaged in prostitution a rough time?

also....I believe in market economy. Im no expert in economics, but I still vaguely remember something from Economics 101 - something about the law of demand and supply

[MB1]

You get even better and confirm to me what I'd already thought before Sokal, IMO most of what you know about women comes from the internet and books/news papers and what people tell, you now resort to producing charts from Thaisextalk.com to try and impress me and the forum, well got news for ya, you don't me, maybe some of the forum are impressed, is that a poll coming on, but you gave me a Sunday laugh anyway so thanks..

How old am I and how do I look, well I can say that I'm older and much wiser than you IMO, and the ladies call me hansum man, sexy man, but never papa, the UK just say hiya gorgeous...

You have no idea of the kind of Thai ladies I meet and socialise with, you just assume, you also assume that some women I go with are in 350lb range post 454 or was that a misunderstanding, you assume too much..

I misunderstand nothing of what you post Sokal, re-read what you have posted in this thread and if your honest with your self you'll see that it's you who misunderstands "yourself" and think you know it all...Remember a post you made when you said..

"I am not the shortest fattest baldest guy around yet I have come to realize just what women really want. There is nothing wrong with it, its just natural."

You keep kidding yourself Sokal,IMO, one day you'll wake up and realise it was just a wet dream..

Edited July 25, 2010 by MB1

[MJP]

I know a few people that died of AIDS lately . . . can we mention that?

One was a prostitute on Koh Samet who was still working three weeks before she died. Another from Cambodia and a guy from this village, almost next door.

I can't find the report now, but I remember the numbers. Between 2001 and 2005, 74% of British males infected with HIV during that time were infected abroad, 29% of those in Thailand. I will try and find it. Perhaps others have different data.

Attitudes to infection amongst sex workers also changed with the introduction of free generic ARV's, seems HIV is no longer a worry as the government keep you alive with free pills.

Also to remember HIV-1 Sub-type E is the predominant strain and it's much easier for a man to catch via the Langerhan cells (?) in the foreskin which this sub-type uses as a transmission route. So, don't compare the risk quotients for Western strains. 80% of infection out here is heterosexual.  

The words written above need comment from someone that really knows their apples on this, so don't take it from me as being perfect.

[MJP]

Okay, here's one article of interest.

Japanese Study on HIV transmission rate to foreigners in Thailand

[MJP]

Long article, 5 years old, but a quick scan says it might be worth a full read.

Learning the Thai sex trade

[sarahsbloke]

Also to remember HIV-1 Sub-type E is the predominant strain and it's much easier for a man to catch via the Langerhan cells (?) in the foreskin which this sub-type uses as a transmission route. So, don't compare the risk quotients for Western strains. 80% of infection out here is heterosexual.

The words written above need comment from someone that really knows their apples on this, so don't take it from me as being perfect.

Sex surveys are notoriously defective.

The people commissioning the surveys always have an axe to grind (usually to prove sex is wrong)

And when a survey comes out saying 80 percent of infections are through heterosexual sex, and the 3rd biggest group of HIV infected are MONKS, something stinks.

I have personally taken 2 sex workers to a hospital for HIV tests, both had been in the industry for many years and had 1,000s of customers, neither was infected. Both played the 'you boyfriend no need for condom' game after 3 visits and although I am a very 'hansum man' I can't believe I was the only guy they said this to.

My friends have done the same, yet none of us or the girls we had tested were HIV positive.

This sort of implies to me that HIV is not as prevalent in Thailand as some would have us believe.

Edited July 25, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[MJP]

Also to remember HIV-1 Sub-type E is the predominant strain and it's much easier for a man to catch via the Langerhan cells (?) in the foreskin which this sub-type uses as a transmission route. So, don't compare the risk quotients for Western strains. 80% of infection out here is heterosexual.  

The words written above need comment from someone that really knows their apples on this, so don't take it from me as being perfect.

Sex surveys are notoriously defective.

The people commissioning the surveys always have an axe to grind (usually to prove sex is wrong)

And when a survey comes out saying 80 percent of infections are through heterosexual sex, and the 3rd biggest group of HIV infected are MONKS, something stinks.

I have personally taken 2 sex workers to a  hospital for HIV tests, both had been in the industry for many years and had 1,000s of customers, neither was infected. Both played the 'you boyfriend no need for condom' game after 3 visits.

My friends have done the same, yet none of us or the girls we had tested were HIV positive.

This sort of implies to me that HIV is not as prevalent in Thailand as some would have us believe.

Ummmm . . . delicate subject here I know because it threatens one of Thailand's main income streams. Money Number One. (I will defend that comment to the death if needs be.)

This is taken from another British Medical Association report,

According to a paper titled “Sex, Sun, Sea, and STIs” reported in British Medical Journal dated March of 2004, 69% of UK heterosexual men who have been infected with HIV from 2000 to 2002 were infected in foreign countries. And 22% of them were infected in Thailand. As for women, 24% of them have been infected with HIV in foreign countries.

Okay, it's 6 years old but if this is true and I can't see much has changed, would it be reasonable to say that Thailand's sex trade is in fact a threat to the national security of Western nations?

[MiG16]

I personally know some people who work really hard, and have done so over dacades to educate Thai people, particularly those working in the sex industry, on the practice of safe sex. So I wouldnt say there is a casual disregard. There certainly is still a lack of knowledge.

but for those of us in the know, why should we not do the right thing, and if you are frequenting the service why not help educate your service providers? it is afterall for your own safety too. why take the risk????

[MB1]

A threat to the National Security of Western Nations, oooppps I can see a conspiracy theory coming on..

I can't see Thai's deleberately infecting Farangs in their millions, can you..

As for the 22% alledgedly infected in Thailand, I guess that people who were infected were asked where they had been and where they had unprotected sex, they said Thailand so Thailand was the place where they caught it, the people who caught it probably had unprotected sex in other places than Thailand, but Thailand got the blame even if they had said they'd also had unprotected sex in other countries.

Edited July 25, 2010 by MB1

[MJP]

I personally know some people who work really hard, and have done so over dacades to educate Thai people, particularly those working in the sex industry, on the practice of safe sex. So I wouldnt say there is a casual disregard. There certainly is still a lack of knowledge.

but for those of us in the know, why should we not do the right thing, and if you are frequenting the service why not help educate your service providers? it is afterall for your own safety too. why take the risk????

Ask a load of them about free ARV's and the attitude towards HIV now. I think without further education this well meaning government policy could have a nasty side effect.

[MJP]

A threat to the National Security of Western Nations, oooppps I can see a conspiracy theory coming on..

As for the 22% alledgedly infected in Thailand, I guess that people who were infected were asked where they had been and where they had unprotected sex, they said Thailand so Thailand was the place where they caught it, the people who caught it probably had unprotected sex in other places than Thailand, but Thailand got the blame even if they had said they'd also had unprotected sex in other countries.

Okay so you disagree with the BMA. Fine.

Now consider the introduction of sub-type E into Western countries increasing heterosexual transmission.

I don't find this very funny.

Just to add, infection was traced back to Thailand through sexual history and the HIV-1 sub-type.

Edited July 25, 2010 by MJP

[sarahsbloke]

This is taken from another British Medical Association report,

According to a paper titled "Sex, Sun, Sea, and STIs" reported in British Medical Journal dated March of 2004, 69% of UK heterosexual men who have been infected with HIV from 2000 to 2002 were infected in foreign countries. And 22% of them were infected in Thailand. As for women, 24% of them have been infected with HIV in foreign countries.

Now consider the introduction of sub-type E into Western countries increasing heterosexual transmission.

I don't find this very funny.

Just to add, infection was traced back to Thailand through sexual history and the HIV-1 sub-type.

I wonder about men paying for sex with ladyboys, do they consider themselves heterosexual.

Ladyboys have working equipment and allegedly use it on 90 percent of their customers.

If you caught HIV from a ladyboy 'doing you' would you admit to having gay sex ....... I don't think I would.

Men lie about their sexuality, especially in homophobic countries like the UK.

And finally ..... the BMA is as suspect as any other organisation.

remember a report from the BMA claiming CJD was not related to mad cow disease

The BMA still claim that MMR vaccine is OK, and I know for a fact that is not true.

Edited July 25, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[MJP]

This is taken from another British Medical Association report,

According to a paper titled "Sex, Sun, Sea, and STIs" reported in British Medical Journal dated March of 2004, 69% of UK heterosexual men who have been infected with HIV from 2000 to 2002 were infected in foreign countries. And 22% of them were infected in Thailand. As for women, 24% of them have been infected with HIV in foreign countries.

I wonder about men paying for sex with ladyboys, do they consider themselves heterosexual.

Ladyboys have working equipment and allegedly use it on 90 percent of their customers.

If you caught HIV from a ladyboy 'doing you' would you admit to having gay sex ....... I don't think I would.

And finally ..... the BMA is as suspect as any other organisation.

remember a report from the BMA claiming CJD was not related to mad cow disease

The BMA still claim that MMR vaccine is OK, and I know for a fact that is not true.

Come back to me with referenced medical and epidemiological studies contradicting what the BMA has stated in that report and we'll have a conversation. 

So far no one else has.

Look I'm no expert on this and this isn't 'trolling' or 'axe grinding'. I like facts, in so far as you can get them and no science or especially epidemiological studies are 100% proof of anything, but they are a guide to what reality possibly is within statistical probabilities.

So far, from what the BMA has said, this isn't a pretty picture.

I'm sure there are HIV/AIDS experts on this forum who could shed some light on this.

[MB1]

Start a thread on Aids in Thailand and I might contribute, IMO though your now thread jacking, maybe a mod can agree or disagree..

Edited July 25, 2010 by MB1

[pprem]

I don't think it's wrong, provided women are treated humane. Prostitution can be a big help to avoid domestic violence and rape I think.

P.Prem

[sarahsbloke]

Come back to me with referenced medical and epidemiological studies contradicting what the BMA has stated in that report and we'll have a conversation.

So far no one else has.

Look I'm no expert on this and this isn't 'trolling' or 'axe grinding'. I like facts, in so far as you can get them and no science or especially epidemiological studies are 100% proof of anything, but they are a guide to what reality possibly is within statistical probabilities.

So far, from what the BMA has said, this isn't a pretty picture.

I'm sure there are HIV/AIDS experts on this forum who could shed some light on this.

The UK is not a free and open society, everything published and broadcast is carefully examined to see if it in 'the public interest'.

I assume all the other western countries are the same, but I was only involved with secrecy in the UK.

The facts you ask for could never be published and therefore never be known.

I was always surprised about how far-ranging the suppression of information was in the UK, I never understood why so many things were secret or supressed, I just did what I was told and pocketed the generous amounts of money I was given for my part of the game.

If some researcher were by chance to slip out of the fold and manage to publish unauthorised information he would either suddenly find himself with a load of kiddie porn on his PC or be taking a last walk in the woods with a shotgun he never knew he possessed.

I trust my personal experience of HIV testing, why don't you pick out 10 pros and take them down to the local clinic for a HIV test. You will get much better information that way, and won't need to rely on something you read from a suspect source.

Edited July 25, 2010 by sarahsbloke

[MJP]

Come back to me with referenced medical and epidemiological studies contradicting what the BMA has stated in that report and we'll have a conversation.

So far no one else has.

Look I'm no expert on this and this isn't 'trolling' or 'axe grinding'. I like facts, in so far as you can get them and no science or especially epidemiological studies are 100% proof of anything, but they are a guide to what reality possibly is within statistical probabilities.

So far, from what the BMA has said, this isn't a pretty picture.

I'm sure there are HIV/AIDS experts on this forum who could shed some light on this.

The UK is not a free and open society, everything published and broadcast is carefully examined to see if it in 'the public interest'.

I assume all the other western countries are the same, but I was only involved with secrecy in the UK.

The facts you ask for could never be published and therefore never be known.

I was always surprised about how far-ranging the suppression of information was in the UK, I never understood why so many things were secret or supressed, I just did what I was told and pocketed the generous amounts of money I was given for my part of the game.

If some researcher were by chance to slip out of the fold and manage to publish unauthorised information he would either suddenly find himself with a load of kiddie porn on his PC or be taking a last walk in the woods with a shotgun he never knew he possessed.

I trust my personal experience of HIV testing, why don't you pick out 10 pros and take them down to the local clinic for a HIV test. You will get much better information that way, and won't need to rely on something you read from a suspect source.

This is just verbiage and tentative personal anecdotes.

Do you have a vested interest in this?

However, I do agree with you about UK secrecy. David Kelly being a case in point. But why would the UK government suppress information that would protect the Thai sex trade and at the same time pick up the considerable public health bill?

Surely all Western governments would not be complicit in this? Particularly Scandinavian ones, who take public health very seriously, are open and do have many of their citizens visiting Thailand.

Need someone that really knows and has studied this in a professional capacity to comment really.

[473geo]

@MiG16

Thanks for taking the time to put your point of view

I like the idea that Joe Average may well be a little unimpressed with his employment and thus this situation is not exclusive to the pay for sex arena. I think any person who attempts to elevate themselves from an uncomfortable/unsatisfactory employment position is to be applauded, perhaps some of the more fortunate are in possession of more training,skills, and attributes to facilitate that change in fortunes, or perhaps retain the financial means to obtain such. I think this is where the choices debate lies......perhaps some as you rightly state accept the status quo.......because things could be worse!!!!..................ever tried a day in the rice paddy....I have....reaping, and also planting, bare feet, in mud, water up to your knees. Perhaps you wouldn't have to take up the horizontal profession after all. But be quick to get your experience.....the machines are coming to put more wealth in the hands of the rich, and reduce this avenue of employment for the poor!!!!

Perhaps there is a thought that some attempts on the thread to undermine the over justification of the 'users' is somehow a judgement on the suppliers.....in my case it is not....I have met some charming, entertaining, and certainly very imaginative and resourceful people in my contact with the 'pay for sex' industry, yes, and sadly as pointed out by MJP death too. To do what they do and on many occasions who they do it with......well I remember a thread where I actully caught a bit of flack for calling prostitutes 'heroes'.....

I will not take the thread off course by entering into debate on your military comments, suffice to say "supply and demand" cuts across many occupations perhaps how the demand is created is the bigger question?

Edited July 25, 2010 by 473geo

[Lite Beer]

The title of this is Prostitution : Is It Wrong To Pay For Sex ?

Please do not take this off into a discussion about other matters, serious though they are.

Thanks.

[MJP]

The title of this is   Prostitution : Is It Wrong To Pay For Sex ?

Please do not take this off into a discussion about other matters, serious though they are.

Thanks.

Is that aimed at my comments?

Are those comments not relevant?

[mark45y]

Long article, 5 years old, but a quick scan says it might be worth a full read.

Learning the Thai sex trade

Some excerpts from the above article.

My family and I have become blasé about the street over the four years since we rented a house off Nana.

The trade in humans across the borders of southeast Asia is a real and ugly story, but it continues to throw up incredible statistics—perhaps because it is an issue that generates large amounts of aid dollars.

There are 21 UN agencies and NGOs based in Bangkok which concern themselves with trafficking. A lack of reliable data remains a major hindrance to the implementation of well-targeted and effective measures to stop the commercial sexual exploitation of children.

Everyone in the anti-trafficking industry is painfully aware that there is no real data at all. Such was the report of human rights lobbyist Kinsey Dinan, published by the Harvard Asia Centre in 2002. But that article, like so many others, made no attempt to attach numbers to the stories. Dinan’s “several-year long research project” with Human Rights Watch merely says she “found that thousands of women from Thailand were being trafficked into… Japan each year.” That is it. The truth is there are no useful statistics on this issue in Japan, If you ask the agencies how they get these figures, you get a weary response: “Why are you journalists so obsessed with statistics.

Question the figures and you will be told you are helping the exploiters. A researcher I know who has worked in east Europe and west Africa on trafficking surveys for Unicef and Save the Children says that the problem lies in the fact that the data everyone wants are near impossible to come by.

Sixty per cent of Thailand’s 10m visitors in 2003 were from elsewhere in east Asia, and certainly the brothel-lined towns on Thailand’s Malaysian border, and the entire streets in Bangkok that are devoted to sex clubs for “Japanese only,” are evidence of the sex trade designed for the region.

The government, and the tourist and aviation industries, resist attempts to measure the significance of the sex trade,

952,000 more men than women visited Thailand on holiday in 2003,

Men are capable of holidaying for reasons other than fornication with strangers

John Koldowski, managing director for strategic intelligence at the Bangkok-based Pacific Asia Travel Association. Said “men might come here because they’re fed up with the ball-breaking females they have to deal with at home.”

Thailand’s National Economic and Social Advisory Council (Nesac) said that massage parlour owners pay £62m a year in police bribes.

End of quotes.

The question becomes is paying for sex responsible for the other abuses like trafficking. Or is the publicity on trafficking a way to stop people from paying for sex.

The sex pats would contend that the NGO’s don’t have any information to support their claims. I think the writer of the article agrees.

Edited July 25, 2010 by mark45y

[TAWP]

I wonder about men paying for sex with ladyboys, do they consider themselves heterosexual.

Ladyboys have working equipment and allegedly use it on 90 percent of their customers.

Completely wrong.

Case in point, on any given night 30-50% of the Ladyboys in Patpong (not streetwalkers) are post-op.

And I don't know any straight guy that had ask any pre-op to be 'done' by them. Maybe a bi man would...

[MB1]

The title of this is   Prostitution : Is It Wrong To Pay For Sex ?

Please do not take this off into a discussion about other matters, serious though they are.

Thanks.

Is that aimed at my comments?

Are those comments not relevant?

IMO not in this thread, like I said in an earlier post, start a thread "aids in Thailand" or something similar but Thai related, up to you, you choose, if that is allowed, and I may contribute.

[mark45y]

I wonder about men paying for sex with ladyboys, do they consider themselves heterosexual.

Ladyboys have working equipment and allegedly use it on 90 percent of their customers.

Completely wrong.

Case in point, on any given night 30-50% of the Ladyboys in Patpong (not streetwalkers) are post-op.

And I don't know any straight guy that had ask any pre-op to be 'done' by them. Maybe a bi man would...

Who tells you these things? Like post op stats.

[MJP]

The title of this is   Prostitution : Is It Wrong To Pay For Sex ?

Please do not take this off into a discussion about other matters, serious though they are.

Thanks.

  

Is that aimed at my comments?

Are those comments not relevant?

IMO not in this thread, like I said in an earlier post, start a thread "aids in Thailand" or something similar but Thai related, up to you, you choose, if that is allowed, and I may contribute.

I think it's central to the thread topic, but that aside I'd prefer it if you or moderator would start your suggested topic using my posts here. I've said all I have to say . . . or rather ask. There has so far been no valid response challenging what the BMA have reported.

Bit poorly tonight and need to go to bed, my sugars are up again.

This is important. It does have very far reaching consequences if these statistics are in fact representative of the situation, in particular the widespread introduction of Sub-type E into the West. 

[bonobo]

The title of this is   Prostitution : Is It Wrong To Pay For Sex ?

Please do not take this off into a discussion about other matters, serious though they are.

Thanks.

  

Is that aimed at my comments?

Are those comments not relevant?

Since the question is whether it is right or wrong to pay for sex, then bringing up HIV infections among sex workers and their customers is as relevant as human trafficking, whether marriage is paying for sex, and how prostitution affects or doesn't affect rape, all aspects previously discussed here..

[MB1]

The title of this is   Prostitution : Is It Wrong To Pay For Sex ?

Please do not take this off into a discussion about other matters, serious though they are.

Thanks.

  

Is that aimed at my comments?

Are those comments not relevant?

Since the question is whether it is right or wrong to pay for sex, then bringing up HIV infections among sex workers and their customers is as relevant as human trafficking, whether marriage is paying for sex, and how prostitution affects or doesn't affect rape, all aspects previously discussed here..

Thank you for clarification...

[MJP]

The title of this is   Prostitution : Is It Wrong To Pay For Sex ?

Please do not take this off into a discussion about other matters, serious though they are.

Thanks.

  

Is that aimed at my comments?

Are those comments not relevant?

Since the question is whether it is right or wrong to pay for sex, then bringing up HIV infections among sex workers and their customers is as relevant as human trafficking, whether marriage is paying for sex, and how prostitution affects or doesn't affect rape, all aspects previously discussed here..

Why are moderators being so defensive about this? It's central to this issue of whether prostitution is right or wrong. If something has a beneficial effect it puts a tick in the 'Right' box, if it has an adverse effect it puts a tick in the 'wrong' box. 

I've said nothing wrong here and I've provided links and evidence from a reputable source. 

What is your problem?

[TAWP]

I wonder about men paying for sex with ladyboys, do they consider themselves heterosexual.

Ladyboys have working equipment and allegedly use it on 90 percent of their customers.

Completely wrong.

Case in point, on any given night 30-50% of the Ladyboys in Patpong (not streetwalkers) are post-op.

And I don't know any straight guy that had ask any pre-op to be 'done' by them. Maybe a bi man would...

Who tells you these things? Like post op stats.

Go inte a gogo bar, become friends with some and one day you ask them about them and all around. Or find out for yourself. Up to you.

[MB1]

quoting MJP

Why are moderators being so defensive about this? It's central to this issue of whether prostitution is right or wrong. If something has a beneficial effect it puts a tick in the 'Right' box, if it has an adverse effect it puts a tick in the 'wrong' box.

I've said nothing wrong here and I've provided links and evidence from a reputable source.

What is your problem?

I do think the MOD is saying it's okay to discuss, read again..I was wrong, but I would rather a separate thread to discuss, so I won't do it in this one..

Edited July 25, 2010 by MB1