Thailand Almost A Failed State - Surely A Failed Conscience

[MikeyIdea]

quote name='Democrat' date='2010-07-14 21:37' timestamp='1279118263' post='3749563'

Quote Asiawatcher

"The Police are a disgrace and care nothing about law enforcement - they use the law to extract money from the public at every opportunity and nothing is done as they ARE the police"

This money the police extract where does it go? Who gets it? end quote

Think its safe to say they dont donate it to save the children fund, my guess is in thier pockets and some gets spent on mianoys,

tingtongfarang and democrat, I invite you to support yourself, your wife and your children on a little bit more than 4,000 bath per month. After you have done that for a year, and if you haven't already starved to death of course, please post again and tell me how it was

I dislike corrution as well as everybody else, it is destructive for the country, no doubt about that. But it is a system that has to be dismantled, it is not just corruption that has to be dismantled. A lot of the money the police collect goes up the ladder, the guys up the ladder want to get the money they paid to get their promotion back, paid because the guy who sat there before them wanted to get the money they paid out back too, others go to support their family and children. Too much goes to beer and partying of course and too little to the family. But then, that's not a police thing, that's fairly normal in the lower classes I would say.

I have had many both friends and relatives throughout the years, don't automatically assume that all police wants to take corruption money, some dislike it as much as you and I do.

This I just write to try to give some perception to some, I think the Royal Thai Police force overall is one of the weakest links to a good future for Thailand, it is no surprise that soldiers got much much more flowers than the police after the liberation of Bangkok. The Thai police force is too often a shame to the country but it is not without reason

Well put. I have several relatives in both the police and the army. One wanted a transfer but was asked for money to make it happen. He does not agree with this type of corruption, so he turned it down. Another was offered money to help another get a promotion. He ended up taking the money, but it was the first time and he is constantly worrying about it now.

So you are right. Not all are corrupt...but a great many are. As you point out, they are severely under paid and ill equipped. Plus, lousy upper management...if the guys at the top were to start acting properly, all this would be fixed. Unfortunately, they are only interested in what they can get out of the system...

Well...they could start by doing the job they are employed to do and start policing, there are enough people commiting real traffic violations ,jumping red lights just for a start...but i guess that would mean actualy working when standing around in a group at the side of the road collecting tea money for imagined violations is too easy,

Apart from that when they apply for job of police they know full well they have to be criminals or rather expected to be, this alone attracts a criminal element into the royal thai police,

The idea of reform has been thrown around since years in thailand but myself i cant imagine reform would be possible, Not possible to turn criminals into a real police force,

The best idea i have heard is to abolish the police force here as a whole and start again, as it is at the moment nobody has respect for them, they are a danger to the public.

Funny ideas you have

"Well...they could start by doing the job they are employed to do and start policing, there are enough people commiting real traffic violations ,jumping red lights just for a start...but i guess that would mean actualy working when standing around in a group at the side of the road collecting tea money for imagined violations is too easy,"

Why do you think the police don't consider it to be work to collect tea money for imagined violations? Or is it you who think that? The police have little time when they can do what they want, they do what they are ordered to do nearly all the time. If they are ordered to collect tea money then that is work. Not that I like it and I have already said that the Thai police force too often is a shame for the country, but don't insinuate that they don't work hard long hours, that is simply not true.

"Apart from that when they apply for job of police they know full well they have to be criminals or rather expected to be, this alone attracts a criminal element into the royal thai police"

It seems you have misunderstood what I wrote about that corruption is a system. It does not attract criminal elements because of the reason you think. I find that most Thai policemen both respect and want to respect the laws more than the average Thai. It is certainly not to the same extent as in western countries of course, and one important reason for that is that they are stuck in a system that demands them to break the law way too often, there is no doubt about that. Sum-up: Far from western and acceptable standard but better than the average Thai.

"The idea of reform has been thrown around since years in thailand but myself i cant imagine reform would be possible, Not possible to turn criminals into a real police force,"

Reform can only start from the very top. Reform is possible but it's not possible to make it quick. And most policemen do have morale living up to the change. Also fellow policemen in Thailand look down on bad policemen, it's just that the lines are different from in the west. Some policemen are clearly not going to be able to adapt and will have to be fired, absolutely. We can compare this to a company that grows, some can adapt, others will have to leave

"Abolishing the police force and start again..."

Well, I am the first one to admit thet they even are a shame for the country too often but working with them are in average already a selection of Thais who like to respect and follow the law more than the average Thai... At a very different level from western standard of course. Replace with what?

The Royal Thai police force as a unit sucks... I don't have words to describe how they handle the job of being a role model for other Thais even, and there is very much, no, very very much that needs to be done.

But... Remember that the selection of people working as policemen in Thailand in average still respect the law better than the average Thai. Now let's go home and dream about the day when they become a really valuable asset for Thailand

[tingtongfarang]

Actualy the idea to abolish the royal thai police was not mine but came from the UN when they described them as the largest organized criminal gang in the kingdom but the UN were not the only organization to suggest this,

Dont forget the problem of police corruption at this level was never unique to thailand, both hongkong and south korea tackled this problem in a similar way although amnesty was offered to officers who owned up to offences and reinstatement considered,

Future offenders were dealt with very harsh prison sentences ie not moved to another district or an inactive post, Dont hold your breath waiting for this to happen in thailand as the will of the public and government has to be there to achieve it.

[philw]

The term "failed state" has been used so often and so widely it no longer has a coherent definition. It therefore makes little sense to argue whether Thailand is, or at risk of, being something which no longer has a clear definition except in the most extreme examples, Somalia being an obvious candidate.

If on the other hand I had to pick out a nation where deep social and political divides, entrenched unyielding interests and a score of other factors were creating the potential for an explosive conflagration then Thailand would be pretty far up my list.

Agreed, and I would like to thank The Nation's Khun Sopon for reminding us of why the Reds were able to invade Bangkok, hold us hostage, commit savage arson attacks, and why they could try it all again -- Thaksin Shinawatra lives, wherever he is, his precious face still lost.

Just think -- if Thaksin died tomorrow, would we Bangkokians finally be able to exhale? I sure would. The chances of another bloody Red invasion of our peaceful city would go from only too likely to almost nil, without Thaksin.

Khun Abhisit understands the needs of Thailand's poor people, and is trying to help. Without Thaksin's revenge to deal with, Abhisit could flourish into Thailand's greatest ever Prime Minister, the leader Thailand needs to avoid becoming a failed state.

Do you really live in fear of Thaksin ??

A convicted criminal living in exile and almost certainly not able to come back to Thailand.

Could it possibly be that there are now other factors at play and that the political, social and economic problems have changed since the coup and the bloodshed and that it may now be just a little bit more complex than it was a couple of years ago ??

Thaksin may be the cause of recent problems and is certainly not the solution, but I think the problems are far worse than the Thaksin haters want to believe.

With or without Thaksin things will get a lot worse before they get better.

Those who blame him for all problems might consider that as his power wanes, which it must eventually, others may take up the torch and they may be even more damaging to the existing status quo.

It's not so simple any more.

philw

[Thai at Heart]

The term "failed state" has been used so often and so widely it no longer has a coherent definition. It therefore makes little sense to argue whether Thailand is, or at risk of, being something which no longer has a clear definition except in the most extreme examples, Somalia being an obvious candidate.

If on the other hand I had to pick out a nation where deep social and political divides, entrenched unyielding interests and a score of other factors were creating the potential for an explosive conflagration then Thailand would be pretty far up my list.

Agreed, and I would like to thank The Nation's Khun Sopon for reminding us of why the Reds were able to invade Bangkok, hold us hostage, commit savage arson attacks, and why they could try it all again -- Thaksin Shinawatra lives, wherever he is, his precious face still lost.

Just think -- if Thaksin died tomorrow, would we Bangkokians finally be able to exhale? I sure would. The chances of another bloody Red invasion of our peaceful city would go from only too likely to almost nil, without Thaksin.

Khun Abhisit understands the needs of Thailand's poor people, and is trying to help. Without Thaksin's revenge to deal with, Abhisit could flourish into Thailand's greatest ever Prime Minister, the leader Thailand needs to avoid becoming a failed state.

Do you really live in fear of Thaksin ??

A convicted criminal living in exile and almost certainly not able to come back to Thailand.

Could it possibly be that there are now other factors at play and that the political, social and economic problems have changed since the coup and the bloodshed and that it may now be just a little bit more complex than it was a couple of years ago ??

Thaksin may be the cause of recent problems and is certainly not the solution, but I think the problems are far worse than the Thaksin haters want to believe.

With or without Thaksin things will get a lot worse before they get better.

Those who blame him for all problems might consider that as his power wanes, which it must eventually, others may take up the torch and they may be even more damaging to the existing status quo.

It's not so simple any more.

philw

Indeed, those that believe that if Thaksin disappears into the sunset and the red leaders disappear, everything will be all hunkey dorey again are deluding themselves about how disjointed the country has become.

[gregb]

The term "failed state" has been used so often and so widely it no longer has a coherent definition. It therefore makes little sense to argue whether Thailand is, or at risk of, being something which no longer has a clear definition except in the most extreme examples, Somalia being an obvious candidate.

If on the other hand I had to pick out a nation where deep social and political divides, entrenched unyielding interests and a score of other factors were creating the potential for an explosive conflagration then Thailand would be pretty far up my list.

Agreed, and I would like to thank The Nation's Khun Sopon for reminding us of why the Reds were able to invade Bangkok, hold us hostage, commit savage arson attacks, and why they could try it all again -- Thaksin Shinawatra lives, wherever he is, his precious face still lost.

Just think -- if Thaksin died tomorrow, would we Bangkokians finally be able to exhale? I sure would. The chances of another bloody Red invasion of our peaceful city would go from only too likely to almost nil, without Thaksin.

Khun Abhisit understands the needs of Thailand's poor people, and is trying to help. Without Thaksin's revenge to deal with, Abhisit could flourish into Thailand's greatest ever Prime Minister, the leader Thailand needs to avoid becoming a failed state.

Do you really live in fear of Thaksin ??

A convicted criminal living in exile and almost certainly not able to come back to Thailand.

Could it possibly be that there are now other factors at play and that the political, social and economic problems have changed since the coup and the bloodshed and that it may now be just a little bit more complex than it was a couple of years ago ??

Thaksin may be the cause of recent problems and is certainly not the solution, but I think the problems are far worse than the Thaksin haters want to believe.

With or without Thaksin things will get a lot worse before they get better.

Those who blame him for all problems might consider that as his power wanes, which it must eventually, others may take up the torch and they may be even more damaging to the existing status quo.

It's not so simple any more.

philw

You aren't understanding.

It is not that eliminating Thaksin is the entire solution to the problem. Nobody believes that. But it is a fact that there can be no solution while Thaksin is still in the picture, and the reason the Thai people can not compromise in even a small way with the reds is because everyone fears Thaksin.

The reds must denounce Thaksin before there is any way forward. The reds have to eventually understand this or they doom the country to civil war. Once this is done, then the negotiations, compromise and reform can really begin. But everything will be superficial as long as the whole country is keeping their guard up against the return of Thaksin.

You ask do I fear him that much? Yes, and a whole lot more. I truly believe that he is every bit as bad as Hitler himself, and must be stopped at all costs. If you believe in reincarnation he may even be Hitler himself. If it costs lives to rid Thailand of him, then it costs lives. It must be done. How many lives would you have paid to stop Hitler before he got started?

Yes...I am terrified of the demagogue. The reds need to come to terms with how hated and despised and feared he truly is by the rest of the country. There is no compromise possible as long as he is still in the picture.

[Siripon]

Pheua Thai are hopelessly split these days, the Issan MPs dislike Payap Shinawat, some Bangkok Pheua Thai resent the red shirts being able to field a detainee, some want a leader who's actually an MP, Chalerm denied he will go campaigning in Issan, the only thing holding the party together is Thaksin's popularity and money, there's no ideology.

And beholden as they are to Thaksin, they will continue to kowtow before him, always putting his interests first, not the country.

He has to be out of the picture for Pheua Thai and the red shirts to progress- and then they'll disintegrate into a million self interested fragments!

[craigt3365]

The term "failed state" has been used so often and so widely it no longer has a coherent definition. It therefore makes little sense to argue whether Thailand is, or at risk of, being something which no longer has a clear definition except in the most extreme examples, Somalia being an obvious candidate.

If on the other hand I had to pick out a nation where deep social and political divides, entrenched unyielding interests and a score of other factors were creating the potential for an explosive conflagration then Thailand would be pretty far up my list.

Agreed, and I would like to thank The Nation's Khun Sopon for reminding us of why the Reds were able to invade Bangkok, hold us hostage, commit savage arson attacks, and why they could try it all again -- Thaksin Shinawatra lives, wherever he is, his precious face still lost.

Just think -- if Thaksin died tomorrow, would we Bangkokians finally be able to exhale? I sure would. The chances of another bloody Red invasion of our peaceful city would go from only too likely to almost nil, without Thaksin.

Khun Abhisit understands the needs of Thailand's poor people, and is trying to help. Without Thaksin's revenge to deal with, Abhisit could flourish into Thailand's greatest ever Prime Minister, the leader Thailand needs to avoid becoming a failed state.

Do you really live in fear of Thaksin ??

A convicted criminal living in exile and almost certainly not able to come back to Thailand.

Could it possibly be that there are now other factors at play and that the political, social and economic problems have changed since the coup and the bloodshed and that it may now be just a little bit more complex than it was a couple of years ago ??

Thaksin may be the cause of recent problems and is certainly not the solution, but I think the problems are far worse than the Thaksin haters want to believe.

With or without Thaksin things will get a lot worse before they get better.

Those who blame him for all problems might consider that as his power wanes, which it must eventually, others may take up the torch and they may be even more damaging to the existing status quo.

It's not so simple any more.

philw

You aren't understanding.

It is not that eliminating Thaksin is the entire solution to the problem. Nobody believes that. But it is a fact that there can be no solution while Thaksin is still in the picture, and the reason the Thai people can not compromise in even a small way with the reds is because everyone fears Thaksin.

The reds must denounce Thaksin before there is any way forward. The reds have to eventually understand this or they doom the country to civil war. Once this is done, then the negotiations, compromise and reform can really begin. But everything will be superficial as long as the whole country is keeping their guard up against the return of Thaksin.

You ask do I fear him that much? Yes, and a whole lot more. I truly believe that he is every bit as bad as Hitler himself, and must be stopped at all costs. If you believe in reincarnation he may even be Hitler himself. If it costs lives to rid Thailand of him, then it costs lives. It must be done. How many lives would you have paid to stop Hitler before he got started?

Yes...I am terrified of the demagogue. The reds need to come to terms with how hated and despised and feared he truly is by the rest of the country. There is no compromise possible as long as he is still in the picture.

I think most don't "fear" Thaksin, just hate him (especially foreigners and BKK residents!). Isn't one of the policies of Red's for their upcoming elections to get Thaksin back? Pretty clear who is running things...and paying for things...

In the village, it is all about money. The red's have promised 1MM Baht to each village if Thaksin comes back. They got decent money for the protests. And they all think he did a lot for them while he was PM. Even though that 30 Baht medical deal is worthless.

Thaksin's an idol and he is the embodiment of rich vs. poor...at least in their minds. Never mind he is shopping for Gucci and eating in Paris while they are eating somtam and sleeping on the pavement in the rain.

[jayjay0]

Quote Asiawatcher

"The Police are a disgrace and care nothing about law enforcement - they use the law to extract money from the public at every opportunity and nothing is done as they ARE the police"

This money the police extract where does it go? Who gets it?

Think its safe to say they dont donate it to save the children fund, my guess is in thier pockets and some gets spent on mianoys,

tingtongfarang and democrat, I invite you to support yourself, your wife and your children on a little bit more than 4,000 bath per month. After you have done that for a year, and if you haven't already starved to death of course, please post again and tell me how it was

I dislike corrution as well as everybody else, it is destructive for the country, no doubt about that. But it is a system that has to be dismantled, it is not just corruption that has to be dismantled. A lot of the money the police collect goes up the ladder, the guys up the ladder want to get the money they paid to get their promotion back, paid because the guy who sat there before them wanted to get the money they paid out back too, others go to support their family and children. Too much goes to beer and partying of course and too little to the family. But then, that's not a police thing, that's fairly normal in the lower classes I would say.

I have had many both friends and relatives throughout the years, don't automatically assume that all police wants to take corruption money, some dislike it as much as you and I do.

This I just write to try to give some perception to some, I think the Royal Thai Police force overall is one of the weakest links to a good future for Thailand, it is no surprise that soldiers got much much more flowers than the police after the liberation of Bangkok. The Thai police force is too often a shame to the country but it is not without reason

Well said. The system is underpaid. No one should be asked to do the job of a policeman without properly training and pay. It is the system that demands corruption. If they were to be trained properly and paid a honest wage the corruption would go way down. The whiners would still be here complaining about how much they have to pay in tax's. In North America the situation is much much much better yet they still have corruption there. It is something we will never completely eliminate:(.

[jayjay0]

The term "failed state" has been used so often and so widely it no longer has a coherent definition. It therefore makes little sense to argue whether Thailand is, or at risk of, being something which no longer has a clear definition except in the most extreme examples, Somalia being an obvious candidate.

If on the other hand I had to pick out a nation where deep social and political divides, entrenched unyielding interests and a score of other factors were creating the potential for an explosive conflagration then Thailand would be pretty far up my list.

Agreed, and I would like to thank The Nation's Khun Sopon for reminding us of why the Reds were able to invade Bangkok, hold us hostage, commit savage arson attacks, and why they could try it all again -- Thaksin Shinawatra lives, wherever he is, his precious face still lost.

Just think -- if Thaksin died tomorrow, would we Bangkokians finally be able to exhale? I sure would. The chances of another bloody Red invasion of our peaceful city would go from only too likely to almost nil, without Thaksin.

Khun Abhisit understands the needs of Thailand's poor people, and is trying to help. Without Thaksin's revenge to deal with, Abhisit could flourish into Thailand's greatest ever Prime Minister, the leader Thailand needs to avoid becoming a failed state.

Do you really live in fear of Thaksin ??

A convicted criminal living in exile and almost certainly not able to come back to Thailand.

Could it possibly be that there are now other factors at play and that the political, social and economic problems have changed since the coup and the bloodshed and that it may now be just a little bit more complex than it was a couple of years ago ??

Thaksin may be the cause of recent problems and is certainly not the solution, but I think the problems are far worse than the Thaksin haters want to believe.

With or without Thaksin things will get a lot worse before they get better.

Those who blame him for all problems might consider that as his power wanes, which it must eventually, others may take up the torch and they may be even more damaging to the existing status quo.

It's not so simple any more.

philw

Indeed, those that believe that if Thaksin disappears into the sunset and the red leaders disappear, everything will be all hunkey dorey again are deluding themselves about how disjointed the country has become.

I agree with your statement that the problem will continue. How ever I really believe some of the leaders will disappear when the money is cut off. They go where the money is.

[jayjay0]

Pheua Thai are hopelessly split these days, the Issan MPs dislike Payap Shinawat, some Bangkok Pheua Thai resent the red shirts being able to field a detainee, some want a leader who's actually an MP, Chalerm denied he will go campaigning in Issan, the only thing holding the party together is Thaksin's popularity and money, there's no ideology.

And beholden as they are to Thaksin, they will continue to kowtow before him, always putting his interests first, not the country.

He has to be out of the picture for Pheua Thai and the red shirts to progress- and then they'll disintegrate into a million self interested fragments!

Exactly anarchy is what they practice and what they want.

[MikeyIdea]

Actualy the idea to abolish the royal thai police was not mine but came from the UN when they described them as the largest organized criminal gang in the kingdom but the UN were not the only organization to suggest this,

Dont forget the problem of police corruption at this level was never unique to thailand, both hongkong and south korea tackled this problem in a similar way although amnesty was offered to officers who owned up to offences and reinstatement considered,

Future offenders were dealt with very harsh prison sentences ie not moved to another district or an inactive post, Dont hold your breath waiting for this to happen in thailand as the will of the public and government has to be there to achieve it.

Please provide the link to that the UN suggested abolishing the police, if you can. I very much want to read it

[craigt3365]

There was a great commentary piece yesterday in the BP. It was titled "Amart and Prai". IMHO, worth a read. Talks about a few of the basic problems here...interesting read.

[MikeyIdea]

The term "failed state" has been used so often and so widely it no longer has a coherent definition. It therefore makes little sense to argue whether Thailand is, or at risk of, being something which no longer has a clear definition except in the most extreme examples, Somalia being an obvious candidate.

If on the other hand I had to pick out a nation where deep social and political divides, entrenched unyielding interests and a score of other factors were creating the potential for an explosive conflagration then Thailand would be pretty far up my list.

Agreed, and I would like to thank The Nation's Khun Sopon for reminding us of why the Reds were able to invade Bangkok, hold us hostage, commit savage arson attacks, and why they could try it all again -- Thaksin Shinawatra lives, wherever he is, his precious face still lost.

Just think -- if Thaksin died tomorrow, would we Bangkokians finally be able to exhale? I sure would. The chances of another bloody Red invasion of our peaceful city would go from only too likely to almost nil, without Thaksin.

Khun Abhisit understands the needs of Thailand's poor people, and is trying to help. Without Thaksin's revenge to deal with, Abhisit could flourish into Thailand's greatest ever Prime Minister, the leader Thailand needs to avoid becoming a failed state.

Do you really live in fear of Thaksin ??

A convicted criminal living in exile and almost certainly not able to come back to Thailand.

*******

It's not so simple any more.

philw

There is no need for anyone who doesn't criticize Thaksin or what he stands for to be afraid of him, anyone who does criticize Thaksin or what he stands for should be somewhat afraid though. Unless they are prepared to follow what he and his people say

As I and my 5 year old daughter found out myself 6-April-2010 when I peacefully had stopped at a red light with my daughter, on motorcycle, and red skirts came over and screamed at me to drive against red to let a red pickup pass. I of course refused and told the reds that if they wanted me to break the law, then they should bring a policeman ordering me to do so.

That's when they called me and my daughter buffalos

Feel to comment that Phil?

[ThaksinKharma]

Pheua Thai are hopelessly split these days, the Issan MPs dislike Payap Shinawat, some Bangkok Pheua Thai resent the red shirts being able to field a detainee, some want a leader who's actually an MP, Chalerm denied he will go campaigning in Issan, the only thing holding the party together is Thaksin's popularity and money, there's no ideology.

And beholden as they are to Thaksin, they will continue to kowtow before him, always putting his interests first, not the country.

He has to be out of the picture for Pheua Thai and the red shirts to progress- and then they'll disintegrate into a million self interested fragments!

They are definitely split and even though they have essentially not had a Party Leader for nearly two years, the Party President sounds very confident despite all the in-house Pheu Thai Party turmoil, his Party will win a pure majority:

Opposition Leader Confident His Party Will Win 300 Seats in Next Election

The president of Pheu Thai Party MPs has threatened to transfer the Chief of the Department of Special Investigation for failing to bring criminal charges against TPI Polene for making an illegal financial contribution to the Democrat Party, should his party come to control the government by winning 300 MP seats next election.

President of Pheu Thai Party MPs, Chalerm Yoobamrung criticized Chief of the Department of Special Investigation, or the DSI, Tharit Pengdit for failing to bring criminal charges against TPI Polene for allegedly making an illegal 258 million baht of financial contribution to the ruling Democrat Party despite, what he called, 'overwhelming evidence'.

Chalerm claims that the financial contribution was illegally taken out of the stock market and was siphoned through a proxy company and deposited into a bank account owned by a relative of one of the Democrat's executive members.

The president of Pheu Thai Party MPs also said that Tharit would be transferred should his party take control of the government. He has boasted that Korkaew Pikulthong, the Pheu Thai candidate in the upcoming Bangkok by-election, is becoming more and more popular amongst voters.

When asked if he is concerned about how this would affect the Democrat Party's dissolution case, Chalerm responded that they are entirely different matters as the dissolution case involves electoral laws while TPI Polene has violated securities regulations.

Chalerm has also stated that he does not really want to see the Democrat Party disbanded because the Pheu Thai Party will certainly win at least 300 MP seats in the next election due to the fact that Thai citizens can no longer accept the double-standards practiced by the government.

TAN

http://www.thailandoutlook.tv/tan/ViewData.aspx?DataID=1032433

[phetaroi]

Well said. The system is underpaid. No one should be asked to do the job of a policeman without properly training and pay. It is the system that demands corruption. If they were to be trained properly and paid a honest wage the corruption would go way down. The whiners would still be here complaining about how much they have to pay in tax's. In North America the situation is much much much better yet they still have corruption there. It is something we will never completely eliminate:(.

I think you miss a few important points.

First, yes, policemen need proper training to do the real job of a policeman. But then we have a right to expect them to actually do the real job of policemen. For example, did the police maintain law and order on May 19? Just tell me yes or no.

Second, yes, they are grossly underpaid. Being underpaid does not require a person to be dishonest. I have known many truly poor people in my life, and most of them did not become dishonest because of being poor. Some choose the path of dishonesty, but others just work hard.

Third, is there corruption in the U.S., as you state? Yes, but there is a difference between occasional corruption and corruption which is endemic. In my whole lifetime, in the States, I've probably got a dozen tickets for driving related offenses. If you got stopped by police a dozen times in Thailand, what percentage of those times would you expect a bit of a shakedown? In my dozen stops in the U.S., not once. I do have to give one caveat to that; when being stopped once in South Carolina, I wasn't asked for money, but I was told that if when I sent in the fine I also sent in a complimentary letter about the police officer, he would reduce the number of points. The point is that in Thailand, corruption is a way of life.

[philw]

The term "failed state" has been used so often and so widely it no longer has a coherent definition. It therefore makes little sense to argue whether Thailand is, or at risk of, being something which no longer has a clear definition except in the most extreme examples, Somalia being an obvious candidate.

If on the other hand I had to pick out a nation where deep social and political divides, entrenched unyielding interests and a score of other factors were creating the potential for an explosive conflagration then Thailand would be pretty far up my list.

Agreed, and I would like to thank The Nation's Khun Sopon for reminding us of why the Reds were able to invade Bangkok, hold us hostage, commit savage arson attacks, and why they could try it all again -- Thaksin Shinawatra lives, wherever he is, his precious face still lost.

Just think -- if Thaksin died tomorrow, would we Bangkokians finally be able to exhale? I sure would. The chances of another bloody Red invasion of our peaceful city would go from only too likely to almost nil, without Thaksin.

Khun Abhisit understands the needs of Thailand's poor people, and is trying to help. Without Thaksin's revenge to deal with, Abhisit could flourish into Thailand's greatest ever Prime Minister, the leader Thailand needs to avoid becoming a failed state.

Do you really live in fear of Thaksin ??

A convicted criminal living in exile and almost certainly not able to come back to Thailand.

*******

It's not so simple any more.

philw

There is no need for anyone who doesn't criticize Thaksin or what he stands for to be afraid of him, anyone who does criticize Thaksin or what he stands for should be somewhat afraid though. Unless they are prepared to follow what he and his people say

As I and my 5 year old daughter found out myself 6-April-2010 when I peacefully had stopped at a red light with my daughter, on motorcycle, and red skirts came over and screamed at me to drive against red to let a red pickup pass. I of course refused and told the reds that if they wanted me to break the law, then they should bring a policeman ordering me to do so.

That's when they called me and my daughter buffalos

Feel to comment that Phil?

Ever got in the way of an official motorcade ???

phil

[ThaksinKharma]

Pheua Thai are hopelessly split these days, the Issan MPs dislike Payap Shinawat, some Bangkok Pheua Thai resent the red shirts being able to field a detainee, some want a leader who's actually an MP, Chalerm denied he will go campaigning in Issan, the only thing holding the party together is Thaksin's popularity and money, there's no ideology.

And beholden as they are to Thaksin, they will continue to kowtow before him, always putting his interests first, not the country.

He has to be out of the picture for Pheua Thai and the red shirts to progress- and then they'll disintegrate into a million self interested fragments!

They are definitely split and even though they have essentially not had a Party Leader for nearly two years, the Party President sounds very confident despite all the in-house Pheu Thai Party turmoil, his Party will win a pure majority:

Opposition Leader Confident His Party Will Win 300 Seats in Next Election

President of Pheu Thai Party MPs, Chalerm Yoobamrung

stated

the Pheu Thai Party will certainly win at least 300 MP seats in the next election

Are you sure about that, Chalerm?

Bhumjaithai boasts MPs defecting to its party

Bhumjaithai Party Secretary-General Pornthiva Nakasai has disclosed that a number of MPs from other political parties, especially the opposition Pheu Thai Party, have requested for a transfer to her party.

Ms Pornthiva said her party has always extended a warm welcome to people with the same political ideology and directions. She also claimed that a number of people and politicians have expressed their interests to partake in political activities with the party.

Reportedly, several MPs from the opposition Pheu Thai Party are set to defect to Bhumjaithai, one of the main coalition parties. However, the Party’s Secretary-General declined to say how many MPs have approached the party for membership.

Ms Pornthiva said further that several discussions have been held with the MPs willing to join the party, but it was not reported in the newspapers..

Asked if the Bhumjaithai Party would gain more seats in the next election, she responded that the party would try to maintain the number of seats it holds at present; however, whether the party would acquire more seats depends on the decision of the voters.

NNT - July 20, 2010

http://thainews.prd.go.th/en/news.php?id=255307200025

[MikeyIdea]

<quote name='roamer' date='2010-07-14 22:22' timestamp='1279120932' post='3749632']

The term "failed state" has been used so often and so widely it no longer has a coherent definition. It therefore makes little sense to argue whether Thailand is, or at risk of, being something which no longer has a clear definition except in the most extreme examples, Somalia being an obvious candidate.

If on the other hand I had to pick out a nation where deep social and political divides, entrenched unyielding interests and a score of other factors were creating the potential for an explosive conflagration then Thailand would be pretty far up my list. >/quote]

Agreed, and I would like to thank The Nation's Khun Sopon for reminding us of why the Reds were able to invade Bangkok, hold us hostage, commit savage arson attacks, and why they could try it all again -- Thaksin Shinawatra lives, wherever he is, his precious face still lost.

Just think -- if Thaksin died tomorrow, would we Bangkokians finally be able to exhale? I sure would. The chances of another bloody Red invasion of our peaceful city would go from only too likely to almost nil, without Thaksin.

Khun Abhisit understands the needs of Thailand's poor people, and is trying to help. Without Thaksin's revenge to deal with, Abhisit could flourish into Thailand's greatest ever Prime Minister, the leader Thailand needs to avoid becoming a failed state.

Do you really live in fear of Thaksin ??

A convicted criminal living in exile and almost certainly not able to come back to Thailand.

*******

It's not so simple any more.

philw

There is no need for anyone who doesn't criticize Thaksin or what he stands for to be afraid of him, anyone who does criticize Thaksin or what he stands for should be somewhat afraid though. Unless they are prepared to follow what he and his people say

As I and my 5 year old daughter found out myself 6-April-2010 when I peacefully had stopped at a red light with my daughter, on motorcycle, and red skirts came over and screamed at me to drive against red to let a red pickup pass. I of course refused and told the reds that if they wanted me to break the law, then they should bring a policeman ordering me to do so.

That's when they called me and my daughter buffalos

Feel to comment that Phil?

Ever got in the way of an official motorcade ???

phil

Phil, if you can of course - Please explain what an official motorcade has to do with one pickup driven by a red shirt?

[ThaksinKharma]

Pheua Thai are hopelessly split these days, the Issan MPs dislike Payap Shinawat, some Bangkok Pheua Thai resent the red shirts being able to field a detainee, some want a leader who's actually an MP, Chalerm denied he will go campaigning in Issan, the only thing holding the party together is Thaksin's popularity and money, there's no ideology.

And beholden as they are to Thaksin, they will continue to kowtow before him, always putting his interests first, not the country.

He has to be out of the picture for Pheua Thai and the red shirts to progress- and then they'll disintegrate into a million self interested fragments!

They are definitely split and even though they have essentially not had a Party Leader for nearly two years, the Party President sounds very confident despite all the in-house Pheu Thai Party turmoil, his Party will win a pure majority:

Opposition Leader Confident His Party Will Win 300 Seats in Next Election

In the most important region for PTP, Payup Shinawatra wins out in the contest for leadership, but remember, Thaksin doesn't have any connections to the PTP:

Thaksin's Brother to Remain Pheu Thai Regional Head

Pheu Thai MPs from northeastern provinces insist they still support a brother of ousted premier Thaksin Shinnawatra and dismiss rumors that some members of their faction have threatened to defect to Bhum Jai Thai Party.

Pheu Thai's Northeastern Region President Payap Shinawatra, a younger brother of fugitive former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, along with the Party's MPs from the region today held a press conference to address speculations that there is a severe dispute within their group.

The northeastern MPs stated that they never threatened to leave the party to join Bhum Jai Thai if Payap is not replaced.

Pheu Thai MP for Nakhon Panom, Paijit Sriworakhan, insisted the Party's MPs for northeastern provinces still support Payap and added he is qualified for the post .

Paijit also affirmed that no MP in his faction is planning to break ranks and join Bhum Jai Thai.

The Party's MP for Khon Kaen, Somsak Kietsuranont, denied rift among the northeastern MPs, but conceded that they could have differing viewpoints..

Payap, meanwhile, insisted he will hold on to the position and said that Pheu Thai's unity remains firm despite the fact that the northeastern MPs may have different opinions.

TAN - July 21, 2010

http://www.thailandoutlook.tv/tan/ViewData.aspx?DataID=1032517