Being Ignorant?

[buddy]

Hi Folks,

I have an issue in trying to explain in Thai the difference for a person being ingnorant as in lacking knowledge or education and some person who is being ignorant as in the way they behave and talk to others, as in bad manners.

Can any of you knowledgable fellows (and ladies) please help in the Thai translation?

1) Ignorant person (Lacking knowledge or education) =

2) Some person BEING ignorant (bad behaviour, bad manners) =

Many thanks in advance.

[SoftWater]

For no 1. I would say

เขาไม่มีความรู้

khao(4) mai(2) mee kwarm ruu(3)

(he not have knowledge)

For no.2 there's so many different ways that you could say the same thing, depending on context. One clear - but I think strong because it's usually used to admonish children - staple an old Thai teacher taught me was

มารยาทไม่เรียบร้อย

ma-ri-yaart(2) mai(2) riab(2) roy(3)

(manners not gracious)

I'm sure there are other and no doubt better colloquial and idiomatic phrases that will be forthcoming from others.

[DavidHouston]

Buddy,

In my dialect of English, your second usage is slang. Perhaps in yours it is a well-established, main-line usage. Could you please identify for us what your English dialect is? Thanks.

As for the second use, Thais might impolitely call another guy "ไอ้ควาย" ("Hey you, buffalo!").

On the other hand, there is this in which the author explains why "ไอ้ควาย" is a term of endearment:

"ไอ้ควาย!!!! อีควายเอ๊ย!!!! - คำชม 2 คำนี้ไม่ทราบว่ามีท่านใดอยากได้รับกันบ้าง ผมว่าผู้พูดเค้าจริงใจดีนะ เป็นการกล่าวถึงบุรุษ(สตรี) ที่สอง เป็นคำยกย่องว่าบุคคลคนนั้น แข็งแรง อดทน บึกบึน เป็นส่วนหนึ่งของชีวิตเกษตรกร เป็นกระดูกสันหลังของชาติไปโน่นเลย 555" From http://www.9dern.com/rsa/view.php?id=894 Is this tongue in cheek?

Any thoughts?

[bannork]

A lot of English use ignorant to mean bad mannered people , as in 'he's an ignorant bast-rd'

เขาไม่มีมารยาท he has no manners.

[Rikker]

Well, ไม่มีการศึกษา "uneducated" is a polite way of expressing the idea of lacking knowledge, but even that is used as an insult.

This must be used with caution, as it is likely to be found offensive. After Mooham ran his Mercedes into a crowded bus stop and killed a woman, his father came under fire when he used the phrase ไม่มีการศึกษา to discredit the eyewitness who spoke out against his son.

I think the phrase ขาดการศึกษา is slightly softer, because it leaves more of an opening for the idea that a person is not deficient, just lacking education. That doesn't mean someone is going to take kindly to this label being applied to them, though.

[AjarnPasa]

In the sense that someone is being deliberately obtuse, or speaking as if with knowledge specifically about something of which they are clearly ignorant, one could use the phrase ไม่รู้เรื่องเลย (which can be translated as to be unaware as well as to be unknowing).

For someone who lacks education generally you could say เรียนไม่สูง though I would certainly echo the caveats that Rikker describes when using these in conversation.

Edited July 16, 2010 by AjarnPasa

[hiero]

Pretty strong so I guess it depends on the context but what about: งมงาย

I remember hearing this used in an interview with a yellow shirt a couple months ago, when he was talking about the reds (so you can kinda guage the level of insult that would be thrown) and why they believe the things they believe I remember the sentence "...พวกเขายังงมงาย" / these people are still ignorant. I've never really used it so would like to know a little more.

2) This isn't really an answer but might be of use depending on the context as it is a lot lighter

คนไทยเฉยๆ กับการเมือง – thai people are not concerned with politics

Edited July 16, 2010 by hiero

[rgs2001uk]

For number 2, no manners I would use either.

ไม่สุภาพ or

ไม่เรียบร้อย

More examples here, http://www.thai-language.com/dict

The example Rikker has used,

ไม่มีการศึกษา

I remember the outcry it caused, not so much because of the people being uneducated, but for the implications of social class and the fact that the witnesses were of a lower social class and therefore were prone to lie due to lack of breeding and education, and as a result couldnt be credible witnesses.

[buddy]

Buddy,

In my dialect of English, your second usage is slang. Perhaps in yours it is a well-established, main-line usage. Could you please identify for us what your English dialect is? Thanks.

As for the second use, Thais might impolitely call another guy "ไอ้ควาย" ("Hey you, buffalo!").

On the other hand, there is this in which the author explains why "ไอ้ควาย" is a term of endearment:

"ไอ้ควาย!!!! อีควายเอ๊ย!!!! - คำชม 2 คำนี้ไม่ทราบว่ามีท่านใดอยากได้รับกันบ้าง ผมว่าผู้พูดเค้าจริงใจดีนะ เป็นการกล่าวถึงบุรุษ(สตรี) ที่สอง เป็นคำยกย่องว่าบุคคลคนนั้น แข็งแรง อดทน บึกบึน เป็นส่วนหนึ่งของชีวิตเกษตรกร เป็นกระดูกสันหลังของชาติไปโน่นเลย 555" From http://www.9dern.com...view.php?id=894 Is this tongue in cheek?

Any thoughts?

Hi DavidHouston,

Thanks for your reply.

Answer to your question is British English - and example that person is a bad mannered ignorant b*stard.

I wish to explain that description compared to some one is just ingnorant in the uneducted sense.

Can you please translet into English your written Thai?

Many thanks.

[fabianfred]

Ignorance in the context of Buddhism is seen as having incorrect understanding or knowledge, or lack of knowledge.

This would be เข้าใจผิด or ความเห็นผิด

Ignorance as stupidity would be ไม่มีปัญญา

[DavidHouston]

From the Dictionary of Buddhism:

อวิชชา 4 (ความไม่รู้แจ้ง, ไม่รู้จริง — Avijjà: ignorance; lack of essential

knowledge)

1. ทุกฺเข อญฺญาณํ (ไม่รู้ในทุกข์ — ignorance of suffering)

2. ทุกฺขสมุทเย อญฺญาณํ (ไม่รู้ในทุกขสมุทัย — ignorance of the cause of suffering)

3. ทุกฺขนิโรเธ อญฺญาณํ (ไม่รู้ในทุกขนิโรธ — ignorance of the cessation of suffering)

4. ทุกฺขนิโรธคามินิยา ปฏิปทาย อญฺญาณํ (ไม่รู้ในทุกขนิโรธคามินีปฏิปทา — ignorance of the path leading to the cessation of suffering)

Edited July 18, 2010 by DavidHouston

[GarryP]

Tam ben mai roo. ทำเป็นไม่รู้ means feigning ignorance as in pretending not to know. For example, ya tam ben mai roo อย่าทำเป็นไม่รู้ Don't pretend you don't know. (double negative and all that).

ben khun rai marayat. ป็นคนไร้มารยาท a person lacking (as in not having any) manners.

For lacking in education I would say something like kart gahn sueksa ขาดการศึกษา (This has less of a negative connotation than rai gahn sueksa ไร้การศึกษา which means the same thing). Rai more often has a more negative implication than kart ขาด, although like everything in Thai, depending on context, they are not always used negatively.

[DavidHouston]

Here is my reading, as flawed as it may be. The key is that the person who wrote this may have his tongue firmly implanted in his cheek:

"ไอ้ควาย!!!! อีควายเอ๊ย!!!! - คำชม 2 คำนี้ไม่ทราบว่ามีท่านใดอยากได้รับกันบ้าง ผมว่าผู้พูดเค้าจริงใจดีนะเป็นการกล่าวถึงบุรุษ(สตรี) ที่สองเป็นคำยกย่องว่าบุคคลคนนั้น แข็งแรง อดทน บึกบึน เป็นส่วนหนึ่งของชีวิตเกษตรกรเป็นกระดูกสันหลังของชาติไปโน่นเลย 555"

" 'Hey Mr. and Mrs. Buffalo!' – I don't know if any one of you wishes to be called by these two words of endearment. I myself believe that whoever said this is an honest and sincere person. It is said directly to another person; it is a term of praise and respect for that person, indicating that he or she is a strong, patient, and rugged individual. These characteristics constitute a [significant] element of the agricultural personality and people with these characteristics form the backbone of the [Thai] nation. Ha, Ha, Ha! '

O.k. Begin casting the slings and arrows!

[GarryP]

Definitely said tongue firmly in cheek. Bulls and Cows (buffalo) indeed. Mr. and Mrs. does not quite make it though. I do think, however, that this is one of those instances where there is really no good English translation that maintains the intended meaning and feeling. Male buffalo and female buffalo, bulls and cows, Mr. and Mrs. Buffalo, none of them really express the same feeling in English.

Here's my try:

Bulls!!!! Cows!!!! (Workhorses male and female) I don't know if anyone wants to receive these two words of praise. (Yet)I believe that the person who said this is indeed being sincere. It is used in reference to those said gentlemen (ladies), praising that they are strong, persevering and tough, which is part (characteristic) of the life of the farmer. The backbone of the nation!!!!

It does not come out and say that those traits are characteristics of the farmer, but I believe it infers that. It would make more sense in the translation.

[buddy]

I am confused now.

Which one of these translations should I use to emphasise "your ignorant", meaning having bad behaviour or bad manners?...I dont care if I hurt thier feelings just wish to get the point across.

Apologies about my typos on my previous post.

Confused~.

[SoftWater]

Yes, buddy, you seem to have got more than you required!

"I only wanted to buy a Honda but they sold me a Rolls Royce"

I haven' seen anything in this thread that trumps what my old teacher told me, so I'll say it again(!)

Ignorant <deleted>? =

มารยาทไม่เรียบร้อย

ma-ri-yaart(2) mai(2) riab(2) roy(3)

(manners not gracious)

A simpler version as baannork pointed out somewhere above would be

เขาไม่มีมารยาท

khao(4) mai(2) mee ma-ri-yaart(2)

(he no have manners)

*Sorry, in case its not obvious, the numbers refer to tones

(1) low

(2) falling

(3) high

(4) rising

**sorry again if it is obvious

Sw

[GarryP]

Back to the OP, to borrow from baannork

คุณไม่มีมารยาท Khun mai mee marayat (You don't have any manners). It can offensive.

As to SW's

มารยาทไม่เรียบร้อย

ma-ri-yaart(2) mai(2) riab(2) roy(3)

(manners not gracious)

This does not mean "ignorant <deleted>" and no matter how it is used could never mean that. It is a soft form of saying "your manner's are lacking" and is the type of thing commonly said by adults when talking to children or teachers speaking to students. Thus, I do not think it would fit with what you want to express. I would go with baannork but rephrase it slightly as above if you are saying it directly to the person you found ignorant (bad mannered).

[bhoydy]

I think เสียมารยาท is a bit softer, but i'm unsure if it fits into this context. I used it yesterday with someone who was speaking to me rudely at the swimming pool. I got a sorry and a wai for my troubles. It's probably too soft for the kid that just told me to go and f*£$ my mother in school. I declined to answer to him, i'll let the chap with the cane deal with him. Sorry to go off topic, having a bad week.

[SoftWater]

Garry, and anyone else confused - it seems my attempt at a swift and direct response to the OP misfired. If you go back to my original post in this thread (post #3) you'll see I explain the meaning of

มารยาทไม่เรียบร้อย

In my last post I was just re-capping that this is an ideal expression for expressing the authors' second choice of meaning. I did not mean to suggest that it carries either the force or the vulgarity of the British slang.

But IMHO you're wrong if you think this doesn't capture the meaning the OP is after in sense 2. Not only was this precisely the context in which it was taught to me, with copious examples by the teacher of the kind of behaviour we associate with 'being ignorant' (sense 2, above), I have also used it successfully in this situation many times.

As far as I understand it, and as I also said above, it is not to be said to adults lightly precisely because it is said to children, and indicates that the person is immature and acting out of keeping with social expectations (a cross-over for the 'losing face' thread here). It indicates that you are 'talking down' to the offender (like a teacher to a pupil) and consider yourself as higher up in the social hierarchy than the offender, (you consider yourself พี่ to their being น้อง) which in itself could be offensive depending on the (expected) relationship between you (I couldn't get away with saying it to or about my father-in-law, for example). If you don't care about that person's reaction then it is ideal.

Equally, if said about an adult to another adult it is just fine (caveats about relationships between who you say it to and who you are talking about notwithstanding), and will often be met with nods and wistful sighs if the person you say it to agrees with your assessment of the offending behaviour. In this sense, there is no connotative diffrerence between มารยาทไม่เรียบร้อย and เขาไม่มีมารยาท.

I stand, as ever, ready to be corrected by voices of greater experience.

Thanks and sorry for the confusion.

Sw

Edited July 20, 2010 by SoftWater

[GarryP]

Garry, and anyone else confused - it seems my attempt at a swift and direct response to the OP misfired.

Sw

Noted. I did not go back to your original post. Thus, the confusion.

However, just because a certain rebuke is usually used with children does not mean that when it is used with adults it becomes more offensive. For the case in point, if you are unhappy or angry with someone (not a child) because they are bad mannered or ignorant, using a term you would normally use with a child does not necessarily get over your feeling of anger and may make you look rather foolish instead. Here I mean saying it directly to the offender.

If said "about an adult to an adult", I agree with you totally.

[SoftWater]

However, just because a certain rebuke is usually used with children does not mean that when it is used with adults it becomes more offensive.

Of course. If someone said 'stop being a silly-billy' to me, I'd be hard put to feel offended. I was talking about this specific example, not making a general rule (I thought my Thai was bad, looks like my English is worse ).

[RickBradford]

If someone were behaving in a boorish way, forgetting their manners as it were, would it be appropriate to just say 'บ้านนอก!' as a gentle prod for them to think about what they're doing?

Edited July 20, 2010 by RickBradford

[GarryP]

If someone were behaving in a boorish way, forgetting their manners as it were, would it be appropriate to just say 'บ้านนอก!' as a gentle prod for them to think about what they're doing?

I find that term offensive for a different reason. It infers that the recipient of the word is a country bumpkin and ignorant. To my way of thinking though, just because someone is from the countryside and not versed with citified manners and behaviour does not make them any less worthy of respect. Said in jest, I have no problems, but think it should be avoided if said seriously.

[tgeezer]

If someone were behaving in a boorish way, forgetting their manners as it were, would it be appropriate to just say 'บ้านนอก!' as a gentle prod for them to think about what they're doing?

As an adjective บ้านนอก apparently means non-progressive. The first time I saw/heard it was when it was employed by girl in a 'stage whisper' to the audiance about the other girl in that popular comedy troup from Isaan the leader of which wears a kilt. I took บ้านนอก to mean 'unsophisticated'.

I have never seen it used seriously but doubtless it must be since it is in the dictionary, I suppose you might describe anything not of the capital or outside the city as บ้านนอก and as a noun it means exactly that.

I remember a person who had upset a friend being described as นิสัยไม่ดี and wonder if this might be the equivalent of 'ignorant' in the sense of 'not of our group' 'not following the norms of polite society' etc.

To give someone a gentle prod to behave why not show that you are upset by the simple ไม่ชอบ?

[buddy]

Just wish to say thank you for your help.

Buddy.