Experts Warn Of Thai Govt 'Intimidation' Of Internet Users

[RKASA]

Well I dont feel intimidated, cant see any reason to be.

Wonder why some people live in this country, or maybe they dont, just complain from afar, the ammount of whinging and whining on this forum is had to believe.

Sure this countries not perfect but where is? To me Thailand is a great place to live even with its faults.

There are posters on this forum who repeatedly call the Govt and PM murderers, liers corrupt and much more and they get away with it.

I suspect in many countries some of these posts would get someone locked up.

Give it a go against Pres O in the US and see if it gets you a holiday in Cuba.

"There are posters on this forum who repeatedly call the Govt and PM murderers, liers corrupt and much more and they get away with it."

The coup solved that problem Thaksin is not here anymore.

[backsoon]

Whose payroll are you on?

One doesn't have to be on anyone's payroll to know that illegal acts have repercussions.

We all know the law

Knowing the law is different than complying with the law.

it is the sense of the law that is being referred to here and freedom of the press is a universall goal intrinsic to all basic freedoms. Without doubt Thailand's press is less free than a few months ago

The Thai press is just as accountable under the LM laws as internet forums such as prachatai and TV are.

Whether one agrees with the LM laws or not, all are expected to comply with them and when an entity such as the prachatai forum fails that, that they are held accountable for that breach should not come as a surprise. Again, one's own personal feelings, including mine, about the appropriateness of LM laws isn't at issue. It's whether the the laws were broken or not and for that a court will determine if they were or not.

If the country wishes to change those laws, there are legal avenues to pursue that desire.

In other words, I'm not saying the law is right or wrong, but simply that that is the law of this country as it stands now and that if people choose to break that law in the interim, then there are repercussions for doing so, the same as any other law-breaking action.

Now some of you are not only splitting the hair, but splitting the logic. Laws or no laws, how can any opinion be wrong? Anybody can have an opinion on anything. Another matter is voicing an opinion. Obviously in Thailand this is not free. Ditto.:jap:

[Beetlejuice]

The Internet is the public domain.

It has well surpassed the super communication highway stage that it was originally designed for and can be used as a tool by governments, companies and worldwide authorities to gain entry into your private lives and affairs.

I was against computers right from the beginning when they put millions of people out of work. I can never understand why these idiots put themselves on social networking sites like facebook, dislaying personal details, daily lives and thoughts to all and sundry.

Use the Internet with caution, otherwise something you do or say may come back and smack you in the face later.

Edited July 22, 2010 by Beetlejuice

[jeb]

It's whether the the laws were broken or not and for that a court will determine if they were or not.

If the country wishes to change those laws, there are legal avenues to pursue that desire.

In other words, I'm not saying the law is right or wrong, but simply that that is the law of this country as it stands now and that if people choose to break that law in the interim, then there are repercussions for doing so, the same as any other law-breaking action.

Seldom mentioned in this thread and particularly not in your comments, is the use of law to gain advantage over political opponents which has seen marked increase since the coup.

How about this as a scenario?

I'm sure that Thailand is like other countries in having so many laws that no one can get through a day without breaking one or more. Let's substitute financial for political gain as a means of focusing attention. One or more individuals in the police department with jurisdiction over your neighborhood are contacted and are offered 1,000 baht for each time you are convicted of any breach of law.

After all, "that is the law of this country as it stands now and that if people choose to break that law in the interim, then there are repercussions for doing so, the same as any other law-breaking action," right?

[EODghost]

Self-censor won already...look

Thai Visa is the worst:cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy:

You got that right.!

[nisakiman]

Whose payroll are you on?

The Thai press is just as accountable under the LM laws as internet forums such as prachatai and TV are.

And therein lies the root of the problem. It renders political discussion meaningless. All the political rants and raves here on TV are juat so much hot air, since everyone has to pussyfoot around the issues affecting Thailand without being able to address them. Until this rather pernicious form of censorship is lifted, Thailand is going nowhere.

[shamas]

When a government has to resort to censorship like this it shows a great weakness of the government. Smells like a Military type of law and control. It's a shame.

[Robby nz]

I wonder how the advocates of complete free speech on the internet and elsewhere would like it if someone, in complete anonymity on you tube, facebook or whatever accused them of being a pedophile?

Maybe even posted a doctored photo of them with a young boy.

An accusation like that would stick, true or not and could easily ruin a career or life.

Yet some want to see it allowed because everyone should be able to post or say what the like under the guise of freedom of speech.

As I have said before there must be limits and someone to set those limits.

There will always be divergence of opinion as to where those limits should be but we can’t all have our way so must accept the limits set for us.

[RKASA]

I wonder how the advocates of complete free speech on the internet and elsewhere would like it if someone, in complete anonymity on you tube, facebook or whatever accused them of being a pedophile?

Maybe even posted a doctored photo of them with a young boy.

An accusation like that would stick, true or not and could easily ruin a career or life.

Yet some want to see it allowed because everyone should be able to post or say what the like under the guise of freedom of speech.

As I have said before there must be limits and someone to set those limits.

There will always be divergence of opinion as to where those limits should be but we can't all have our way so must accept the limits set for us.

That was not legal even before this act which is the result of a military coup and goes beyond want you site by example. They are using it to censor peoples opinions of the state of the government and that should be protected free speech. This act cannot be defended using an example of acts which were before and would still be illegal without it. How many will like it when the reds get to be in charge of it and your ideas become a crime?

[jayboy]

no attempt was made to contact prachatai to remove such comments.

Wouldn't think that was necessary, as afterall...

We all know the law

A bad law is a bad law.For example the Jim Crow laws in the old South, which enshrined racial hatred.Here in Thailand the more enlightened Thai leaders are looking to reform anachronistic laws which in at least one case is having the precise opposite of its intention.What's surprising is the support being provided by a few foreigners.We know that scumbag Thai politicians of all stripes abuse laws for their own selfish ends, and thus bring well intentioned measures into scorn and disrepute.But it's slightly mysterious why a few foreigners take the same morally repugnant path.

[ThaksinKharma]

no attempt was made to contact prachatai to remove such comments.

Wouldn't think that was necessary, as afterall...

quote name='peterpop'

We all know the law

unquote

What's surprising is the support being provided by a few foreigners.We know that scumbag Thai politicians of all stripes abuse laws for their own selfish ends, and thus bring well intentioned measures into scorn and disrepute.But it's slightly mysterious why a few foreigners take the same morally repugnant path.

For the benefit of those with reading difficulties, yesterday's post re-posted

I'm not saying the law is right or wrong, but simply that it is the law

[jayboy]

For the benefit of those with reading difficulties, yesterday's post re-posted

Clearly my point about Jim Crow laws was ignored or went over your head.If you are just saying a discredited and widely abused law deserves to be respected because it's the law, you have made your slightly simple minded point - not that anyone familiar with your record is deceived as to your position (ie craven support for repression wherever it occurs)

[Piengrudee]

I am disappointed that this web has not been blocked yet http://www.robertamsterdam.com/

[TheyCallmeScooter]

I am disappointed that this web has not been blocked yet http://www.robertamsterdam.com/

The 80-page white paper entitled "The Bangkok Massacres: A Call for Accountability" was prepared by international lawyer Robert Amsterdam of Amsterdam & Peroff LLP, whose firm has been retained by former Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra as international advisors to the legal defense team for protesters arrested in the crackdown.

It's a fluff piece. You don't censor it. Censoring it gives it legitimacy where it otherwise would have none. Censoring it prevents objective, intelligent voices from ridiculing it.

[philw]

I am disappointed that this web has not been blocked yet http://www.robertamsterdam.com/

The 80-page white paper entitled "The Bangkok Massacres: A Call for Accountability" was prepared by international lawyer Robert Amsterdam of Amsterdam & Peroff LLP, whose firm has been retained by former Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra as international advisors to the legal defense team for protesters arrested in the crackdown.

It's a fluff piece. You don't censor it. Censoring it gives it legitimacy where it otherwise would have none. Censoring it prevents objective, intelligent voices from ridiculing it.

Have you read it ???

In all objectivity there are some fair criticisms of the current state of affairs in Thailand.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

The 80-page white paper entitled "The Bangkok Massacres: A Call for Accountability" was prepared by international lawyer Robert Amsterdam of Amsterdam & Peroff LLP, whose firm has been retained by former Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra as international advisors to the legal defense team for protesters arrested in the crackdown.

It's a fluff piece. You don't censor it. Censoring it gives it legitimacy where it otherwise would have none. Censoring it prevents objective, intelligent voices from ridiculing it.

Have you read it ???

In all objectivity there are some fair criticisms of the current state of affairs in Thailand.

I have not. And fair criticisms of the current state of affairs certainly exist; but you can bet your life they are not going to come from a source employed by Thaksin.

[BSJ]

At a glance it would appear we are heading for a slippery slope! Although free speech is more a privilege than a right in many jurisdictions....at least limited free speech is allowed in LOS. When censorship is introduced (in LOS or anywhere) it becomes a blight on those who no longer have the ability, rightly or wrongly, to express their view either through the internet, newspapers or radio and TV. Censorship in itself is bad enough but what erks me more is the people enforcing the censorship laws are often given powers that exceed what a reasonable person would expect them to have. Powers that belong to what should be the final arbitrator....the courts.

[whybother]

I wonder how the advocates of complete free speech on the internet and elsewhere would like it if someone, in complete anonymity on you tube, facebook or whatever accused them of being a pedophile?

Maybe even posted a doctored photo of them with a young boy.

An accusation like that would stick, true or not and could easily ruin a career or life.

Yet some want to see it allowed because everyone should be able to post or say what the like under the guise of freedom of speech.

As I have said before there must be limits and someone to set those limits.

There will always be divergence of opinion as to where those limits should be but we can't all have our way so must accept the limits set for us.

That was not legal even before this act which is the result of a military coup and goes beyond want you site by example. They are using it to censor peoples opinions of the state of the government and that should be protected free speech. This act cannot be defended using an example of acts which were before and would still be illegal without it. How many will like it when the reds get to be in charge of it and your ideas become a crime?

We are allowed to talk about the government and politics as much as we like. We are allowed to talk about the King and the royal family. What we are not allowed to do is talk badly about the royal family. And these laws were there long before the last coup.

The problem for the red shirts is their alleged anti-monarchy stance. When ever there is discussion of their aims or of their opposition to the current government, it potentially brings up their opinions which are against the law to discuss. Whether that is their real aims or not, there are red shirt supporters out there that discuss it - and probably others too.

Also, one of the main reasons quoted for shutting down PTV was their broadcast of doctored video/audio of Abhisit telling the army to kill protesters, and of inciting violence and hatred - something that would probably shut down television stations in many western countries. These are also reasons given for blocking some websites - because they are inciting violence and hatred.

While Thaksin was PM, he sued many journalists and media outlets whenever they said a bad word against him - his own personal censorship.

Hopefully both the government censorship and the red shirt incitement of violence and hatred can be stopped so that Thailand can start moving forward.

[philw]

The 80-page white paper entitled "The Bangkok Massacres: A Call for Accountability" was prepared by international lawyer Robert Amsterdam of Amsterdam & Peroff LLP, whose firm has been retained by former Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra as international advisors to the legal defense team for protesters arrested in the crackdown.

It's a fluff piece. You don't censor it. Censoring it gives it legitimacy where it otherwise would have none. Censoring it prevents objective, intelligent voices from ridiculing it.

Have you read it ???

In all objectivity there are some fair criticisms of the current state of affairs in Thailand.

I have not. And fair criticisms of the current state of affairs certainly exist; but you can bet your life they are not going to come from a source employed by Thaksin.

You scorned it and then admit to not even reading it.........

Wow.

What to say ?

[TheyCallmeScooter]

You scorned it and then admit to not even reading it.........

Wow.

What to say ?

Admit? No. I flatly stated the fact. I would be 'admitting' to having read it, if I had done so.

But I don't need to have read every single book in the Bible, Torah or the Qu'ran to be able to predict the unread ones are likely more of the same gibberish; I don't need to have watched Glenn Beck or Bill O'Reilly to know they aren't worth listening to - the fact that they have their own shows on Faux News tells me everything I need to know about their particular 'caper'; and the fact that the author of this paper is paid by Thaksin tells me everything I need to know.

Thaksin hasn't been 'objective' in his entire life. He's a borderline crackpot living in a state of self-aggrandised delusion. If he pays someone to criticise Thailand's state of affairs, I don't need to read what they've written to know it's not worth reading.

And neither should you - quite frankly.

Edited July 24, 2010 by TheyCallmeScooter

[jayboy]

You scorned it and then admit to not even reading it.........

Wow.

What to say ?

Admit? No. I flatly stated the fact. I would be 'admitting' to having read it, if I had done so.

But I don't need to have read every single book in the Bible, Torah or the Qu'ran to be able to predict the unread ones are likely more of the same gibberish; I don't need to have watched Glenn Beck or Bill O'Reilly to know they aren't worth listening to - the fact that they have their own shows on Faux News tells me everything I need to know about their particular 'caper'; and the fact that the author of this paper is paid by Thaksin tells me everything I need to know.

Thaksin hasn't been 'objective' in his entire life. He's a borderline crackpot living in a state of self-aggrandised delusion. If he pays someone to criticise Thailand's state of affairs, I don't need to read what they've written to know it's not worth reading.

And neither should you - quite frankly.

This is obviously an extreme form of intellectual impoverishment but it's not so rare as one might hope.He makes,needless to say, no reference to the current government censorship and propaganda machine.Ignore him.Those who should be taken seriously are those who read carefully and deconstruct, if appropriate, comprehensively.This fellow is simply a blowhard who would be comfortable with the burning of books.The Nazis put the same "arguments" forward as this sorry specimen.

All very depressing.Fortunately there's a Central sale to cheer us all up

http://www.notthenation.com/pages/news/getnews.php?id=922

Edited July 24, 2010 by jayboy

[TheyCallmeScooter]

Thaksin hasn't been 'objective' in his entire life. He's a borderline crackpot living in a state of self-aggrandised delusion. If he pays someone to criticise Thailand's state of affairs, I don't need to read what they've written to know it's not worth reading.

And neither should you - quite frankly.

This is obviously an extreme form of intellectual impoverishment but it's not so rare as one might hope.He makes,needless to say, no reference to the current government censorship and propaganda machine.Ignore him.Those who should be taken seriously are those who read carefully and deconstruct, if appropriate, comprehensively.This fellow is simply a blowhard who would be comfortable with the burning of books.The Nazis put the same "arguments" forward as this sorry specimen.

All very depressing.

Sorry...are you saying that one must read every single piece of drivel written so as to avoid intellectual impoverishment? Even if one has already read enough from a source to be able to accurately predict the nature of all future copy?

If so, I have millions of words of drivel for you to catch up on. Billions, in fact. Please let me know where I can send them, for your careful reading and comprehensive deconstruction [if appropriate].

[jayboy]

Thaksin hasn't been 'objective' in his entire life. He's a borderline crackpot living in a state of self-aggrandised delusion. If he pays someone to criticise Thailand's state of affairs, I don't need to read what they've written to know it's not worth reading.

And neither should you - quite frankly.

This is obviously an extreme form of intellectual impoverishment but it's not so rare as one might hope.He makes,needless to say, no reference to the current government censorship and propaganda machine.Ignore him.Those who should be taken seriously are those who read carefully and deconstruct, if appropriate, comprehensively.This fellow is simply a blowhard who would be comfortable with the burning of books.The Nazis put the same "arguments" forward as this sorry specimen.

All very depressing.

Sorry...are you saying that one must read every single piece of drivel written so as to avoid intellectual impoverishment? Even if one has already read enough from a source to be able to accurately predict the nature of all future copy?

If so, I have millions of words of drivel for you to catch up on. Billions, in fact. Please let me know where I can send them, for your careful reading and comprehensive deconstruction [if appropriate].

You are just posing the same closed mind view albeit in a slightly different way.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

You are just posing the same closed mind view albeit in a slightly different way.

Sorry I'm still confused and wish to learn from your wisdom. What was your response to my question? Namely, no matter how much you've read / heard from one source over a long period of time....you're saying one would be closed-minded not to carefully read every new piece of drivel from that same source - you know, to avoid the whole intellectual impoverishment and that?

Seems to me to be a retarded waste of time? Where am I going wrong with my reasoning?

[trogers]

Perhaps we should first define the line where freedom of expression ends and freedom to defame begins, then and only then can there be an intelligent discussion of this issue. No point supporting people who try to hide in the shrouds of internet anonymity and doing the latter.

Edited July 25, 2010 by trogers

[jayboy]

You are just posing the same closed mind view albeit in a slightly different way.

Sorry I'm still confused and wish to learn from your wisdom. What was your response to my question? Namely, no matter how much you've read / heard from one source over a long period of time....you're saying one would be closed-minded not to carefully read every new piece of drivel from that same source - you know, to avoid the whole intellectual impoverishment and that?

Seems to me to be a retarded waste of time? Where am I going wrong with my reasoning?

Let's assume you want a serious reply, and I will relate it to the specific rather than generalities.Firstly I think most fairminded people believe that there should be some genuine inquiry into the deaths which occurred during the red demonstrations in Central Bangkok.Most of us have some views based on personal experience,news reports and anecdote but the honest answer is that we don't really know the full story.I accept there are those who "just know" but we can dismiss these people.There's no doubt Robert Amsterdam is Thaksin's PR consultant and that in itself isn't objectionable.(The Thai Government also uses similar people).What is clear however is that Amsterdam is being projected by those who disagree with his line as some kind of tainted Mafioso scam merchant.It just ain't so as a small amount of research will indicate.One of the best American interviewers Charlie Rose took him seriously enough to warrant an interview.The document itself which I have read is a well argued piece with plenty of content to digest and has some well made points.It's certainly not a piece of drivel.You appear to believe it is so worthless that it should not even be read let alone debated.(I accept there are several areas where he needs to be corrected, but that's a different matter).So where did you get your information that Amsterdam is a purveyor of drivel and need not be read? Surely you should consider reading his views and then, if that's your line, just demolishing it point by point.Of course I don't think all known nonsense should be read but by any definition the Amsterdam piece isn't nonsense.And don't forget it was you that made an announcement on this forum on the subject thus presumably inviting scrutiny of your, with respect, intellectually impoverished position.

Edited July 25, 2010 by jayboy

[TheyCallmeScooter]

There's no doubt Robert Amsterdam is Thaksin's PR consultant and that in itself isn't objectionable.

Yes, it is. His employer is a convicted criminal billionaire living in exile to avoid a very tame sentence for gross corruption. Not to mention the far more serious crimes of 2500-3000 extra-judicial killings ordered by an insane man in an insane and illegal and horrific War Against ? [ostensibly drugs].

Working for such a villain writing PR spin is about as 'objectionable' as it gets.

]What is clear however is that Amsterdam is being projected by those who disagree with his line as some kind of tainted Mafioso scam merchant.It just ain't so as a small amount of research will indicate.

See, now I've lost respect for you and that was unnecessary. You didn't need to push me to discover what I already knew. 5 min of research and I'm already half laughing at / half nauseated by the stupidity of this diarrhea. . .

....there are a number of processes and striking parallels between the current conduct of Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva, the Democrat Party, and the military, and events that were taking place under Mugabe's early administration 7-9 years ago, before everything went off the rails. Early on in Mugabe's rise, we observed 1) an outsourcing of political violence, 2) the creation of a repressive legalistic apparatus, and 3) an exhibition of a "terrorism algorithm" – an inverse relationship between the state's level of democratic legitimacy and the need to taint opponents as terrorists...

That's disgusting, idiotic, vile, moronic drivel right there. Abhisit is a peace-loving diplomatic statesman, he's the Asian Obama. The fact that he didn't crack the whip on these 'patriots' below [who sought to damage the country for Thaksin's vile purposes - albeit no doubt many 'meant' well and were more or less used] - Abhisit's refusal to take the hardline stance from the outset almost cost him his job.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4M9XiJoWSSs

Comparing Abhisit to Mugabe, a genocidal maniac who slaughtered millions of his countrymen? It's beneath us to discuss this vile idiocy.

The only white man you can trust is a dead white man.

Yeah I can see how a sane person would draw parallels between the most 'evil' dictator presently in power...and the softly spoken, middle of the road, current PM of Thailand.

I actually had no idea the fluff would be so filthy.

[TheyCallmeScooter]

The document itself which I have read is a well argued piece with plenty of content to digest and has some well made points.It's certainly not a piece of drivel.

Out of respect for you, I just read the entire thing. There were two developments worth noting:

1. I have no more respect for you.

2. That article is the most ridiculous piece of moronic drivel I have possibly read in the last decade.

Do you *really* want me to destroy it piece by piece? Come on. Wake up.

So where did you get your information that Amsterdam is a purveyor of drivel and need not be read?

]The 80-page white paper entitled "The Bangkok Massacres: A Call for Accountability" was prepared by international lawyer Robert Amsterdam of Amsterdam & Peroff LLP, whose firm has been retained by former Thai Prime Minister Thaksin Shinawatra

All anyone would need to know to be able to accurately predict the nature of the content....is right there in bold.

Surely you should consider reading his views and then, if that's your line, just demolishing it point by point.

Because of you, I just did. I'm bored enough to destroy that piece of filth - it's stupidity on a level even Sarah Palin would ridicule.....

[DickFarang]

“... supported by the Heinrich Boll Foundation ...”

I guess the German author Heinrich Böll (1917-1985) is meant.

[jayboy]

Because of you, I just did. I'm bored enough to destroy that piece of filth - it's stupidity on a level even Sarah Palin would ridicule.....

I think in this very revealing reply you have made my point more comprehensively and conclusively than I ever could.As I mentioned earlier there are many that "just know" the details of the massacre and they will not be swayed by argument or evidence, even in the unlikely event of an independent investigation.Nobody claimed Robert Amsterdam's piece was other than a partisan argument, but even sceptics accept some important points were raised and unanswered questions posed.

But for you it is just a "piece of filth", "moronic drivel" etc.