Thais Have Little Concept Of The Collective Good

[Pib]

But Thai's have mastered the art the littering. If I didn't know better I would almost think "How to Litter" is taught in schools (year after year).

[rkidlad]

This isn't a Thai thing at all. So why bother with labeling them this way? Check out any major city in the world that was overbuilt. Same problem in the row-house areas of any town in the U.S. Fights, damage to cars, shootings, etc. over parking spaces.

Trash everywhere? Have you been to some other other cities in this world? Have you seen the airport in Paris? Most of Thailand is fairly clean compared to lots of "progressive' cities. Have you seen any central American cities? Have you seen the "other "side of Dubai? Kuwait City? Ever been to India? Baghdad? South side of Chicago?

I have to agree with some others on here. This looks like a personal grievance of one individual concerning a personal parking space. Shame on that person for painting all with the broad, dark brush of generalization and stereotype. Get out and see the world before you condemn these people.

agree 100%

Oh, do you mean 'It's time for people to start cleaning up their own backyards before they go knocking on other peoples' doors'?

Yea, we could talk about other countries' problems, but the thing is we are talking about Thailand.

[Credo]

I live in a beautiful Moo Bahn. It's quite upscale and quite small. Next to us is a very beautiful open space (yet to be developed). People often throw things over the wall. No problem with grass clippings and organic matter which quickly disappears into the dense growth. What I don't understand is people who actually walk to the end of the soi and throw a plastic bag full of garbage over the fence. We have excellent garbage collection and any bags of trash quickly are taken away--but some people still insist on throwing it over the fence!

[Pib]

That method of garbage disposal is taught in the 3d grade version of "How to Litter." The advanced methods are taught in later class years.

[phetaroi]

Of course the recent collective action by Bangkokians to clean their streets after the slaughter of Reds goes against this article but nobody every took an intellectual leap banking on The Nation to see the nuance in any discussion. Instead as usual this looks like a private grudge written by the editor about parking space. Most Thais don't drive. How about that for a statistic.

1. Nor do I see any nuance by you when you state "after the slaughter of Reds". You do not mention. for example, holding a city hostage for nearly two months or the torching of about 30 buildings which took away many jobs from many poor people.

2. You miss the bigger point of the article, and instead focus on their example. The bigger issue is a concept of the collective good. Parking issues and the use of common grounds are merely examples the author gives.

3. Okay, most Thais don't drive. You seem to think that is pertinent to the author's argument. Okay. Most Thai military did not shoot or injure a single red shirt. Case closed?

[Lannatyne]

Many people, including Farang who've become a bit too accustomed to such behaviour, treat the "common space" of Tesco's car park as an abandoning ground for shopping trolleys : too lazy to walk a few yards to put them in a designated place.

My own view is that I don't want to scratch my own, or anyone else's car, and also do what I've been doing all my life in my home country - take the bugger back to the trolley bay.

Couple of weeks ago, I was parked next to a Thai lady, and we were unloading our shopping at the same time into the boot of our cars. I took my trolley back, and she was in the process of just shoving hers to one side so she could drive out. I told her, nicely, to take it to the trolley bay, pointed to where it was (all of 10- yards away), and, guess what, she took it there.

On return to her car, she gave me a pleasant smile, and we went our own ways.

Just goes to show that if you encourage people to do the right thing, they'll see the benefits in doing it. Only wish Tesco and the rest would put a 10 baht coin slot in the trolleys - that would ensure shoppers take them back to where they got them, and keep the car parks clear.

[phetaroi]

Collective good? I sometimes think Thai's believe it means how much can I collect for me, me, me, me and me. Just watching how a nationality drives is enough to see if they have any concept of collective benefit.

After living in Thailand for just over a year, the May 19 riots and the black smoke billowing down our soi were enough for me. I packed up and returned to the States. Because I decided to settle in a completely different area of the country (Colorado Springs rather than Virginia), I am striking up conversations with many new people, and when they hear I lived in Thailand for a year, there is often immediate interest. Over the past almost two months I have met four people who have been to Thailand, and here are brief summaries of their comments:

Person 1: Wonderful country. Wonderful people. I'm trying to convince my wife that after we both retire in about a year we should live in Thailand during America's winter months and here in Colorado during the summer months.

Person 2: You can't trust the Thais. I was in a long-term relationship with a Thai person (and by long term I mean well over a decade) and got taken for $15,000 by them. All they think about is how they can get their hands on your money.

Person 3: I was out one night and saw a savage beating by Thais on Thai. Five against one. Maybe the most cruel thing I've ever seen. I tried to help the lone victim and was roughed up myself. The police saw it and did nothing. Thais? What kind of people are they? I would never go back to Thailand again. Much better off in Malaysia or Singapore or even Indonesia.

Person 4: My closest friend lives in Thailand about half the time and has a small import/export business between Thailand and Pakistan. He says the Thai women are sneaky and always out to find how they can get latched onto your money. Oh, they are loving and they work hard to keep your house clean and cook for you and act like the perfect wife. But when their chance comes, they and your money disappear. Everyone knows it.

Now, I'm not claiming this is representative of the comments of all people who have visited Thailand. In fact, I think it isn't. But when 3 out of 4 people you meet randomly have these extremely negative views of Thai people -- and you put that together with the tone of so many posts on Thai Visa, then I have to say that perhaps there is an issue -- as the original article points out -- about the Thai concept "of the collective good".

We often see that Thailand is the Land Of Smiles (and we often read that those smiles are deceptive). Here's a sample of some of the Thai Visa forum topics from just the first page of two sub-forums:

Thai PM Abhiset Sued for Attempted Murder

Thais Have Little Concept of The Collective Good

Thais Urged To Stop Drinking

Experts Warn Of Thai Government intimidation Of Internet Users

Banned Thailand Ad Should Be Seen On TV

Jewelry Vanished After Thai DSI Put It On Display

Thai Culture Minister To Check TV Drama After Six-Year-Old Girl Hangs Herself

Thai Government Ignores Red Shirts Rights

Young People Need Protection From Bad Thai Soap Operas

Scams In Thailand

Them And us (Paranoid Farangs)

Prostitution: Is It Wrong To Pay For Sex

You obviously already "get it". But my question to some of the people in this forum is, with all this negativity, what's wrong with a newspaper asking Thais to examine their attitudes?

Edited July 22, 2010 by phetaroi

[phetaroi]

When you get right now to it, Thailand is a dirty country in most areas. While most Thai's will keep their house spotless and yards in pretty good shape, outside the boundaries of their fence/property Thai's will litter like there is no tomorrow, throw yard cuttings over their fence to a common area/on the sidewalk, dump stuff along the road, let their dogs run loose and crap anywhere, etc. Even when utility companies (phone, electric, or water) do work in an area they will routinely leave leftover wire/boxes/trash from the work they did. Thai's seem to think it's OK to litter.

When I made my first visit "to the village" to meet the Thai family, the house itself was decent. Obviously these folks were not POOR...nor were they rich. The house was, as you say, spotlessly clean. Outside there was trash strewn all over. A pig sty. I don't get it.

[mazeltov]

I think it's people in general who are exceedingly selfish. They need good examples while growing up, not just in what elders say, but how elders actually manifest (actions). Suggestion: take schoolchildren out to do good things for the greater good (pick up litter at a park, etc). Also, expose youngsters to people who are less well off than themselves, such as invalids, elderly - and find simple ways they can assist. Incidentally, such exposure was what prompted the Buddha to develop compassion for others.

I totally agree, Brahmburgers. This is not limited to Thailand. Increased focus on the self rather than society, lack of decent role models to set good examples, consumerism that creates ever greater waste (and waist!), "entertainment" TV reality shows that applaud the worst of human behaviour, etc., etc.. Many do not seem to know what compassion is anymore. Their definition of suffering is that they don't have high pay, good looks or some latest gadget!. It's any wonder that people have lost sight of the need for the greater good!

moralists are the worst of all people. and "for the greater good" is the most evil concept.

[phetaroi]

I live in a beautiful Moo Bahn. It's quite upscale and quite small. Next to us is a very beautiful open space (yet to be developed). People often throw things over the wall. No problem with grass clippings and organic matter which quickly disappears into the dense growth. What I don't understand is people who actually walk to the end of the soi and throw a plastic bag full of garbage over the fence. We have excellent garbage collection and any bags of trash quickly are taken away--but some people still insist on throwing it over the fence!

Yes. Very true. I was walking on a smaller street not too far south of Rama IV Road and came along to an old building of some type...half collapsed. And all over the property was trash and garbage at least a meter deep. And they wonder why rats are a problem in Bangkok?

[Heng]

Collective good FOR THE FAMILY, and not for strangers. That's our house anyway.

[givenall]

Isn't this one part of the backlash caused by the "Thailand for Thais" nationalism expounded by previous nationalist junta agendas?

It goes a lot deeper than condo car-parks...

Äs ye reap so shall ye sew...

Once my Thai wife told me “do you know what is wrong with Thailand” she continued to say “Thai people”

[kuffki]

Should not the headline be "Thais have no concepts"- full stop

[Scott]

Please take care in your choice of words when posting and remember this rule:

8) Not to post extremely negative views of Thailand or derogatory comments directed towards all Thais.

Thanks.

[Pib]

When you get right now to it, Thailand is a dirty country in most areas. While most Thai's will keep their house spotless and yards in pretty good shape, outside the boundaries of their fence/property Thai's will litter like there is no tomorrow, throw yard cuttings over their fence to a common area/on the sidewalk, dump stuff along the road, let their dogs run loose and crap anywhere, etc. Even when utility companies (phone, electric, or water) do work in an area they will routinely leave leftover wire/boxes/trash from the work they did. Thai's seem to think it's OK to litter.

When I made my first visit "to the village" to meet the Thai family, the house itself was decent. Obviously these folks were not POOR...nor were they rich. The house was, as you say, spotlessly clean. Outside there was trash strewn all over. A pig sty. I don't get it.

Very common in Thailand...keep the home as clean as you can inside...sweep it many times a day; but outside, don't worry about it.

[jackr]

This isn't a Thai thing at all. So why bother with labeling them this way? Check out any major city in the world that was overbuilt. Same problem in the row-house areas of any town in the U.S. Fights, damage to cars, shootings, etc. over parking spaces...

Blah blah... this is a forum about Thailand, kandahar / ThaksinKharma or whatever your nik is.

Unfortunately the concept of the op - The Collective Good - is a non-entity here, at least 100 years away.

[imjustagirl]

Of course the recent collective action by Bangkokians to clean their streets after the slaughter of Reds goes against this article but nobody every took an intellectual leap banking on The Nation to see the nuance in any discussion. Instead as usual this looks like a private grudge written by the editor about parking space. Most Thais don't drive. How about that for a statistic.

Fascinating how an innocuous article about awareness of others/collective pride can draw out inaccurate sensationalist comments as above.

With a further inaccuracy about most Thais not driving. Most do drive motorcycles and I've witnessed plenty of squabbles over motorcycle parking spots.

Basically I saw the article as a discussion about the shortcomings of people being selfish. Is that an exclusive Thai trait? No, not by a long shot.

I accept that it is not exclusive to Thais, but I do think that selfishness/lack of awareness of others is a fundamental barrier to progression/evolution.

actually selfishness is a prerequisite of the animal kingdom and evolution with very few truly altruistic creatures (i cant think of any mammals). However i do think man has become not so much more selfish but more like a virus consuming and destroying the areas they inhabit with little regard for the planet or other species.

Selfishness as this article refers to it is hardly solely a Thai trait, not by a long shot. It does seem with the majority that when the going is good then man doesn't really give a crap, it takes a truly devastating event to wake people up to the collective good and focus on much else other than themselves...take natural disasters and war when people do shine and come through for the 'collective good'.

We tut and compare Thailand to the western world cleanliness but the truth is that most of what we do to keep our parks clear and rubbish in bins etc in the west is done because we will get penalized if we don't (fines for dropping litter for example). Its a shame that we need to be chastised and regulated by big brother in order to keep our environment clean and healthy, but really that is the case. I can imagine the hair pulling and shouting on Thaivisa should the same laws appear in Thailand. Education and 'doing your bit' is really all that can be done and hope that later generations will be more wise...

[jackr]

Selfishness as this article refers to it is hardly solely a Thai trait

The rest of the world, solar system, galaxy, Universe, multi-verse aside, they do seem rather adept one would have to admit.

[jayjay0]

Collective good? I sometimes think Thai's believe it means how much can I collect for me, me, me, me and me. Just watching how a nationality drives is enough to see if they have any concept of collective benefit.

After living in Thailand for just over a year, the May 19 riots and the black smoke billowing down our soi were enough for me. I packed up and returned to the States. Because I decided to settle in a completely different area of the country (Colorado Springs rather than Virginia), I am striking up conversations with many new people, and when they hear I lived in Thailand for a year, there is often immediate interest. Over the past almost two months I have met four people who have been to Thailand, and here are brief summaries of their comments:

Person 1: Wonderful country. Wonderful people. I'm trying to convince my wife that after we both retire in about a year we should live in Thailand during America's winter months and here in Colorado during the summer months.

Person 2: You can't trust the Thais. I was in a long-term relationship with a Thai person (and by long term I mean well over a decade) and got taken for $15,000 by them. All they think about is how they can get their hands on your money.

Person 3: I was out one night and saw a savage beating by Thais on Thai. Five against one. Maybe the most cruel thing I've ever seen. I tried to help the lone victim and was roughed up myself. The police saw it and did nothing. Thais? What kind of people are they? I would never go back to Thailand again. Much better off in Malaysia or Singapore or even Indonesia.

Person 4: My closest friend lives in Thailand about half the time and has a small import/export business between Thailand and Pakistan. He says the Thai women are sneaky and always out to find how they can get latched onto your money. Oh, they are loving and they work hard to keep your house clean and cook for you and act like the perfect wife. But when their chance comes, they and your money disappear. Everyone knows it.

Now, I'm not claiming this is representative of the comments of all people who have visited Thailand. In fact, I think it isn't. But when 3 out of 4 people you meet randomly have these extremely negative views of Thai people -- and you put that together with the tone of so many posts on Thai Visa, then I have to say that perhaps there is an issue -- as the original article points out -- about the Thai concept "of the collective good".

We often see that Thailand is the Land Of Smiles (and we often read that those smiles are deceptive). Here's a sample of some of the Thai Visa forum topics from just the first page of two sub-forums:

Thai PM Abhiset Sued for Attempted Murder

Thais Have Little Concept of The Collective Good

Thais Urged To Stop Drinking

Experts Warn Of Thai Government intimidation Of Internet Users

Banned Thailand Ad Should Be Seen On TV

Jewelry Vanished After Thai DSI Put It On Display

Thai Culture Minister To Check TV Drama After Six-Year-Old Girl Hangs Herself

Thai Government Ignores Red Shirts Rights

Young People Need Protection From Bad Thai Soap Operas

Scams In Thailand

Them And us (Paranoid Farangs)

Prostitution: Is It Wrong To Pay For Sex

You obviously already "get it". But my question to some of the people in this forum is, with all this negativity, what's wrong with a newspaper asking Thais to examine their attitudes?

While I was reading your list of topics I couldn't sop thinking My God I am watching Fox news.

[connda]

I've probably seen both sides of this augment. But in the defense of some Thais, I have seen those who look after common areas that they don't own. On the soi where I live, the older women routinely clean the soi in the morning in between giving monks food. Maybe it's a generational sort of thing, but those women are displaying as much civic conscientiousness as I'd expect to see in middle class American neighborhoods. As a matter of fact, I've seen people all around the area I live in cleaning up and washing common, public areas in and around their shops, businesses, and apartments. I've also seen total slobs, but I've seen that all over America too. So from my experience, this sounds a little too generalize.

One other thing...Scott (Titanium member Global Moderator) Regarding your comments: "Not to post extremely negative views of Thailand or derogatory comments directed towards all Thais." Perhaps this should be amended to read, "Not to post extremely negative views of any country or derogatory comments directed towards the entirety of specific ethnic group". I've seen some scathing BS in these forums directed towards foreigners. If you wish to be the xenophobia police, then please police everyone. I get tired of being bashed by Thais base on my skin color and country of origin. Especially when I'm supporting a Thai family. But Farang and แขก bashing seems to be quite OK. Either that or just allow everyone to vent equally.

Edited July 22, 2010 by connda

[jayjay0]

A good topic and a lot of good posts. I believe most of them to be true. Makes no difference what the rest of the world does.

Yes there is some areas where the people use them as a garbage dump. There is problems with parking I solved that I didnt buy any thing. But the biggest problem is the people who think no body has rites except them. I would like you to look at the activates of the yellow and red shirts. Absalutly no concern for other peoples rites and many of them were paid to do it.

I have seen many Thais throwing things away in receptacles for that purpose. Odly enough not many of them just throw them on the ground but I can sure see that some do. The reason people are not quite as bad in North America is becouse of fear. Many of there laws carry fines take the fines away and you will see a different attitude.

I don't know where others are but here in Chiang Mai if you own a motor bike you own the sidewalk just park any where and block as much of the sidewalk as you can so people have to walk in the street. I have noticed many times as I walk down the sidewalk that a Thai will walk out in front of me and walk slow so I have to move over. Many times I have seen them get on the sidewalk and walk towards me expecting me to move even though I had been walking in that line when they got on the six foot wide sidewalk.

I have seen examples of collective good and examples of self contentedness. To be honest I don't really give it that much of a thought. However if I was to have a baby you can bet they would learn respect for others along with honesty no matter what the cost.

[phetaroi]

Collective good? I sometimes think Thai's believe it means how much can I collect for me, me, me, me and me. Just watching how a nationality drives is enough to see if they have any concept of collective benefit.

After living in Thailand for just over a year, the May 19 riots and the black smoke billowing down our soi were enough for me. I packed up and returned to the States. Because I decided to settle in a completely different area of the country (Colorado Springs rather than Virginia), I am striking up conversations with many new people, and when they hear I lived in Thailand for a year, there is often immediate interest. Over the past almost two months I have met four people who have been to Thailand, and here are brief summaries of their comments:

Person 1: Wonderful country. Wonderful people. I'm trying to convince my wife that after we both retire in about a year we should live in Thailand during America's winter months and here in Colorado during the summer months.

Person 2: You can't trust the Thais. I was in a long-term relationship with a Thai person (and by long term I mean well over a decade) and got taken for $15,000 by them. All they think about is how they can get their hands on your money.

Person 3: I was out one night and saw a savage beating by Thais on Thai. Five against one. Maybe the most cruel thing I've ever seen. I tried to help the lone victim and was roughed up myself. The police saw it and did nothing. Thais? What kind of people are they? I would never go back to Thailand again. Much better off in Malaysia or Singapore or even Indonesia.

Person 4: My closest friend lives in Thailand about half the time and has a small import/export business between Thailand and Pakistan. He says the Thai women are sneaky and always out to find how they can get latched onto your money. Oh, they are loving and they work hard to keep your house clean and cook for you and act like the perfect wife. But when their chance comes, they and your money disappear. Everyone knows it.

Now, I'm not claiming this is representative of the comments of all people who have visited Thailand. In fact, I think it isn't. But when 3 out of 4 people you meet randomly have these extremely negative views of Thai people -- and you put that together with the tone of so many posts on Thai Visa, then I have to say that perhaps there is an issue -- as the original article points out -- about the Thai concept "of the collective good".

We often see that Thailand is the Land Of Smiles (and we often read that those smiles are deceptive). Here's a sample of some of the Thai Visa forum topics from just the first page of two sub-forums:

Thai PM Abhiset Sued for Attempted Murder

Thais Have Little Concept of The Collective Good

Thais Urged To Stop Drinking

Experts Warn Of Thai Government intimidation Of Internet Users

Banned Thailand Ad Should Be Seen On TV

Jewelry Vanished After Thai DSI Put It On Display

Thai Culture Minister To Check TV Drama After Six-Year-Old Girl Hangs Herself

Thai Government Ignores Red Shirts Rights

Young People Need Protection From Bad Thai Soap Operas

Scams In Thailand

Them And us (Paranoid Farangs)

Prostitution: Is It Wrong To Pay For Sex

You obviously already "get it". But my question to some of the people in this forum is, with all this negativity, what's wrong with a newspaper asking Thais to examine their attitudes?

While I was reading your list of topics I couldn't sop thinking My God I am watching Fox news.

Please remember, they're not my topics. They're the posts of Thai Visa dot com...primarily from the news clippings sub-forum.

Edited July 22, 2010 by phetaroi

[jackr]

On the soi where I live, the older women routinely clean the soi in the morning in between giving monks food. Maybe it's a generational sort of thing, but those women are displaying as much civic conscientiousness as I'd expect to see in middle class American neighborhoods.

Civic conscientiousness in Muang Thai could also be interpreted as merit-making; ie, it will be good for me in the long run.

[Spee]

Everyone is entitled to their own wrong opinion, but I can't stand the use of terms like "the collective" and "the collective good" in a free democratic society. History is full of examples of failed societies from governments trying to herd people into "collectives" and enforce the "collective" mentality upon society at large.

What we are talking about is a sense of civic pride, self-awareness and respect for one's fellow human beings. If civic pride does not come from within, then it needs to be enforced by the civil authorities. The start of that equation is esteem and respect for civil authority, which is a two-way street like anywhere. The problem in Thailand is this "street" has a median that is 10km wide. This is purely a civic issue, IMHO.

On the other hand, self-awareness and respect for one's fellow human beings is purely a cultural issue. Any large scale change takes time, motivation and cooperation. That has to be top down and bottom up. Bottom up meaning it starts in the schools and towns, and top down meaning targeting corruption with the authorities and addressing the hi-so/lo-so caste system issues.

While no locale or society is perfect, and this discussion is specific to Thailand, it helps to use examples of what is possible. Singapore is an obvious example as far as keeping civic areas clean, but it's only a fraction the size of Thailand. The same goes for the borough of Manhattan in New York City, where 20-years ago, the former DA turned mayor cleaned up the police department and then instructed them to enforce so-called "nuisance crimes" like littering, petty theft, etc. It's still far from perfect but the quality of life improvements were dramatic.

[geriatrickid]

This isn't a Thai thing at all. So why bother with labeling them this way? Check out any major city in the world that was overbuilt. Same problem in the row-house areas of any town in the U.S. Fights, damage to cars, shootings, etc. over parking spaces.

Trash everywhere? Have you been to some other other cities in this world? Have you seen the airport in Paris? Most of Thailand is fairly clean compared to lots of "progressive' cities. Have you seen any central American cities? Have you seen the "other "side of Dubai? Kuwait City? Ever been to India? Baghdad? South side of Chicago?

I have to agree with some others on here. This looks like a personal grievance of one individual concerning a personal parking space. Shame on that person for painting all with the broad, dark brush of generalization and stereotype. Get out and see the world before you condemn these people.

You need to get out more and preferably not to Afghanistan. As bad as it may be in some western cities, it is not as bad as it is in Thailand. Where exactly in Thailand is it "clean"? I can guarantee you that it will most likely be an unpopulated place. Thais and the westerners they attract are clueless as to collecting trash and not dumping toxic liquid waste anywhere and everywhere. How is toxic waste disposed of on Phuket? Tell me where the special depot is and how it is able to deal with all of the crud produced daily on the island.

NYC is suprisingly clean for a major city. Mayor Guliani realized long ago that leaving grafitti and garbage encouraged the situation so he made the police crack down. Know what? The streets are fairly clean, even in Harlem. That's the key. If places are left to become filthy then people say <deleted> it. Keeping it clean encourages support from the population.

Go into some of the hardest hit cities in Canada like Hamilton or Toronto, and they still maintain the parks and clean the streets. I was in Amsterdam not too long ago, and while there is some garbage, the city does a pretty good job. Yes there are issues in places like London and Paris, but its more of a cultural issue with some ethnic groups that are used to tossing trash. I saw energetic punks drinking their booze in the park, but when they were finished they put the bottles in the trash can. The city I went to university in had a lot of North Africans and they'd picnic. instead of collecting the trash, they just threw everything into the river. Cities that neglect cleanliness and greenspaces end up as stinky dark filthy places.

It definitely is a social and cultural characteristic of the country to behave as per the article, and some of the worst offenders are the elderly foreigners. The younger generation gets a bum rap on this since they are the ones most likely to put trash in its place and make an effort to respect the environment and the personal space of others.

[Heng]

I liked my soi so much I bought it. And yes, I now have folks to keep it clean. I certainly wouldn't want random folks thinking/trying to maintain my property.

[kandahar]

This isn't a Thai thing at all. So why bother with labeling them this way? Check out any major city in the world that was overbuilt. Same problem in the row-house areas of any town in the U.S. Fights, damage to cars, shootings, etc. over parking spaces.

Trash everywhere? Have you been to some other other cities in this world? Have you seen the airport in Paris? Most of Thailand is fairly clean compared to lots of "progressive' cities. Have you seen any central American cities? Have you seen the "other "side of Dubai? Kuwait City? Ever been to India? Baghdad? South side of Chicago?

I have to agree with some others on here. This looks like a personal grievance of one individual concerning a personal parking space. Shame on that person for painting all with the broad, dark brush of generalization and stereotype. Get out and see the world before you condemn these people.

You need to get out more and preferably not to Afghanistan. As bad as it may be in some western cities, it is not as bad as it is in Thailand. Where exactly in Thailand is it "clean"? I can guarantee you that it will most likely be an unpopulated place. Thais and the westerners they attract are clueless as to collecting trash and not dumping toxic liquid waste anywhere and everywhere. How is toxic waste disposed of on Phuket? Tell me where the special depot is and how it is able to deal with all of the crud produced daily on the island.

NYC is suprisingly clean for a major city. Mayor Guliani realized long ago that leaving grafitti and garbage encouraged the situation so he made the police crack down. Know what? The streets are fairly clean, even in Harlem. That's the key. If places are left to become filthy then people say <deleted> it. Keeping it clean encourages support from the population.

Go into some of the hardest hit cities in Canada like Hamilton or Toronto, and they still maintain the parks and clean the streets. I was in Amsterdam not too long ago, and while there is some garbage, the city does a pretty good job. Yes there are issues in places like London and Paris, but its more of a cultural issue with some ethnic groups that are used to tossing trash. I saw energetic punks drinking their booze in the park, but when they were finished they put the bottles in the trash can. The city I went to university in had a lot of North Africans and they'd picnic. instead of collecting the trash, they just threw everything into the river. Cities that neglect cleanliness and greenspaces end up as stinky dark filthy places.

It definitely is a social and cultural characteristic of the country to behave as per the article, and some of the worst offenders are the elderly foreigners. The younger generation gets a bum rap on this since they are the ones most likely to put trash in its place and make an effort to respect the environment and the personal space of others.

I really don't need to get out more often. I have spent my life on the move. Maybe you need to get out.

And you can "guarantee" that I live in an unpopulated area? Your guarantee is worthless. I live in a large northern city and it is clean enough and cleaner than most places I have been in my lifetime.

And Harlem is clean? I remember when it wasn't but I was there when they started cleaning ALL of that cesspool up. Good to know they accomplished it. I also remember suburbs near Detroit that were spotless years ago and now they are wastelands, trash everywhere and nobody there cares. Things change as circumstances and populations change. That isn't a defect in people's understanding of collective good. Nor is a dirty place in Thailand an indication of people's understanding of collective good.

Where do they take toxic waste in Phuket? I have no clue. I didn't come to Thailand to live elbow to elbow with immigrants and tourists and party-goers. I moved here because I found Thailand to be a place where pretty much all of the locals I deal with are looking out for each other and for strangers. But if you live in one of those tourist areas, you are welcome to it. You get what you came for and you get what you pay for. If you think the hot tourist spots of Thailand are representative of Thailand in general, you are lacking in knowledge. Buy a bus ticket, then come back and do some posting.

The article is pointing out how the Thais have little concept of the collective good. Maybe the author lives in Phuket too. Any place in the world that is populated by fairly new immigrants is filthy and people don't respect each other. There are just too many ways of doing things, too many cultures clashing, too many people trying to adjust to a new way of life. But in your writing here, you say that some of the worst offenders are the elderly foreigners. What has that to do with anything in the article? Why don't you write your own and get your story straight?

In my town, the trash is picked up every night. In my town, all of the shop owners and most of the residents put their trash out right at closing time or bedtime If you walk the city streets after that, trash is piled neatly all over the place and at daylight, it is all gone. In front of my family's house is a bin that is used by probably ten different people every day and those are people who do not live here. I asked the Thai head of the family why he lets just anyone drop their trash at his bin. His reply is, better to have it dropped here and picked up every night than to find it dumped later where it would just be litter.

One poster on here mentioned a neighbor that threw the trash over the wall. That is ONE neighbor. He didn't say everyone was doing it. And in every crowd, there is always ONE. Is that a Thai thing? NO. It is humans in general.

Last, but not least, I'll say again. The author is off base. It isn't a Thai thing. It is a human thing, shared by every country in the world, if not now, then forty and fifty years ago when everyone dumped everything wherever there was a spot to dump it. In those areas of Thailand that the author thinks are so bad, the immigrants will catch on soon enough, the tourists will catch on soon enough and the government will catch on soon enough. The people who have been living here for generations don't need to catch on. They are doing just fine. Thailand is just fine.

Where ever it is that you are that is so bad, have fun. You're not in the Thailand that I live in.

[charlesfrith]

Of course the recent collective action by Bangkokians to clean their streets after the slaughter of Reds goes against this article but nobody every took an intellectual leap banking on The Nation to see the nuance in any discussion. Instead as usual this looks like a private grudge written by the editor about parking space. Most Thais don't drive. How about that for a statistic.

Fascinating how an innocuous article about awareness of others/collective pride can draw out innaccurate sensationalist comments as above.

@ThaksinKharma

Your paraphrasing of the editorial headline "Thais Have Little Concept Of The Collective Good' changing to 'collective pride' is looking exposed to say the least for any champions of accuracy. Here's why pride isn't so good:

Pride walks hand in hand with pernicious. It strides around mentally goosestepping with its bullet proof jacket while burying young military blood. Pride gets tumescent saluting flags before freedom. Pride is into high fiving Roulette Generals alternatly grovelling to unmeritocratic favour fiefdoms over deaths so cynical that The International Communities collective view hasn't been so appalled since Thaksin endorsed summary executions. Everyone let that slide as did the chance for a fast human rights arrest. Pride .

On the other hand the word good is just good. It's unequivocally single minded. The editorial team used it instead of the pride you prefer and which logically supports your assertion that the article is innocuous? No doubt so were freedom fries until torture and habeus corpus rocked up for the extraordinary renditions party.

It's probably just a coincidence that you chose to have a j'accuse moment, when you least needed to fumble the execution through inaccuracy.

[phetaroi]

Pride walks hand in hand with pernicious. It strides around mentally goosestepping with its bullet proof jacket while burying young military blood. Pride gets tumescent saluting flags before freedom. Pride is into high fiving Roulette Generals alternatly grovelling to unmeritocratic favour fiefdoms over deaths so cynical that The International Communities collective view hasn't been so appalled since Thaksin endorsed summary executions. Everyone let that slide as did the chance for a fast human rights arrest. Pride .

Hyperbole.

[iko]

I don't think homosexuality or paedohilia have something to do with this "raid". I guess the "minors" were no younger than 17 or so. Also if they wer 16 or 15, it's my undersanding that at this age boys and girls can engage in consensual sex activities. The fact is that at 16 o 17 you cannot work in a bar or a go-go. Just that. Much ado for nothing.