Real Inequality In The Thai Society

[hammered]

To deal with inequality is not an easy thing and as so many have pointed out here involves many different aspects. However, what is needed is an increase in opportunity for the poorer elements of society. Access to better education is a start but also a fairer access to jobs based on ability and not family contact, alumnii group or skin colour is needed and the other one would better opportunity in business which may mean government banks being willing to fund well thought out business plans of those without the necessary collateral in the case of poorer parts of society. Thinking about it banks are often only too willing to fund idiotic business plans of the kids of the rich who have the collateral or guarantees but banks dont alwasy see their money return on the collapse of what were stupid plans ion the first place from those who could afford to return money and infact didnt need to borrow it in the first place.

Anyway rant aside the three ways of opening better opportunity for the poor would be a good idea. However, that addresses the issue of coming generations and their hopes and aspirations and chances but it doesnt address the hopes of those here now. That is harder as many poor people given money are going to handle irt in a manner we see as poor management. Is that however, a problem or even a surprise? If you have never had a nice mobile, motorcylce, nice clothes, nice massage in your life mightnt anyone act similarly and quite honestly who can blame them after all ebnough rich squander money on unneeded and wasteful second and third homes and car collections etc.

It does also seem the social welfare net is going to be in place whatever government is in power which is a good thing provided it is properly funded from adequate taxation and that is planned over the long and not short term.

All in all the rich and the middle income groups in Thailand and other societies have to be willing to take sacrifice to help the poor to avoid social problems that the rich and middle income groups wouldnt like. Of course as soicety as a whole becomes richer and the poor become a smaller segment maybe a lot of the things done to improve the majorities lot need to be revisited. That however, brings us into another area and one that western societies may need to address where so many free or subsidised things are given by government to parts of society that dont need it while the poor see services which they may need get cut. Looking at western societies now maybe means testing would be a way ahead. Even in Thailand there are enough people who dont free medical care or free education. Not an easy area to solve

Edited to add: an interesting observation is that in my daughterrs school every scholarship for anything ends up being taken up by a wealthy person's kid who0 doesnt need it, so the ingrained culture of corruption within bureacracies may mean any attempts at targettign money or opporitunity to the poor will inevitably be undermined. Confronting and dealing with that will be another huge problem.

Edited August 2, 2010 by hammered

[Thai at Heart]

To deal with inequality is not an easy thing and as so many have pointed out here involves many different aspects. However, what is needed is an increase in opportunity for the poorer elements of society. Access to better education is a start but also a fairer access to jobs based on ability and not family contact, alumnii group or skin colour is needed and the other one would better opportunity in business which may mean government banks being willing to fund well thought out business plans of those without the necessary collateral in the case of poorer parts of society. Thinking about it banks are often only too willing to fund idiotic business plans of the kids of the rich who have the collateral or guarantees but banks dont alwasy see their money return on the collapse of what were stupid plans ion the first place from those who could afford to return money and infact didnt need to borrow it in the first place.

Anyway rant aside the three ways of opening better opportunity for the poor would be a good idea. However, that addresses the issue of coming generations and their hopes and aspirations and chances but it doesnt address the hopes of those here now. That is harder as many poor people given money are going to handle irt in a manner we see as poor management. Is that however, a problem or even a surprise? If you have never had a nice mobile, motorcylce, nice clothes, nice massage in your life mightnt anyone act similarly and quite honestly who can blame them after all ebnough rich squander money on unneeded and wasteful second and third homes and car collections etc.

It does also seem the social welfare net is going to be in place whatever government is in power which is a good thing provided it is properly funded from adequate taxation and that is planned over the long and not short term.

All in all the rich and the middle income groups in Thailand and other societies have to be willing to take sacrifice to help the poor to avoid social problems that the rich and middle income groups wouldnt like. Of course as soicety as a whole becomes richer and the poor become a smaller segment maybe a lot of the things done to improve the majorities lot need to be revisited. That however, brings us into another area and one that western societies may need to address where so many free or subsidised things are given by government to parts of society that dont need it while the poor see services which they may need get cut. Looking at western societies now maybe means testing would be a way ahead. Even in Thailand there are enough people who dont free medical care or free education. Not an easy area to solve

Edited to add: an interesting observation is that in my daughterrs school every scholarship for anything ends up being taken up by a wealthy person's kid who0 doesnt need it, so the ingrained culture of corruption within bureacracies may mean any attempts at targettign money or opporitunity to the poor will inevitably be undermined. Confronting and dealing with that will be another huge problem.

Couldn't agree more with every sentiment in this post

[JohanV]

....

an interesting observation is that in my daughterrs school every scholarship for anything ends up being taken up by a wealthy person's kid who doesnt need it, so the ingrained culture of corruption within bureacracies may mean any attempts at targeting money or opporitunity to the poor will inevitably be undermined. Confronting and dealing with that will be another huge problem.

Beautiful post, hammered. You managed to sum up the whole discussion in a very nice way. Thanks

Concerning the school problem, you are damned right and this might actually be one of the most serious and important issues

in the Thai society today if there should ever be a real change towards a more "equal" society.

And, as it would - theoretically speaking - be easier for the government to confront lower-level officials such as headmasters

and teachers with penalties for corrupt behaviour than to clear out the high-business/politics, it would be an ideal starting point

for any party/politician who seriously wants to change Thai society. Now that's something to rally about.

If there ever was a need for a "peoples movement" in this country pressuring power-holders for changes, it's on this issue.

Kudos and cheers

[Deeral]

As a change from this abusive,barely literate garbage, some may be interested to see Reuter's Andrew Marshall's excellent report.

http://blogs.reuters...educate-people/

Andrew Marshall may be conned as a number of correspondents have been, but the fundamental position remains that Thaksin's gang have zero economic policies and only a campaign of violence and intimidation to achieve their political aims which is that of returning Thaksin to power.

Many red apologists try to claim that it is not all about Thaksin, probably including the above, but the fundamental underlying logic of the absence of red economic policies is precisely to focus on Thaksin as the central saviour, have no independent class economics and rely exclusively on Thaksin's largesse to cement political support.

Neither a number of correspondents or red apologists understand the key underpinnings of the Thaksin gang.

For many of the forum red cheerleaders they don't care. Arguments are purely instrumental to their cause:

Thaksin Number 1.

Don't worry whatever happens it's a safe bet that Thaksin won't be the next PM.

Marshall's report should be compulsory reading for posters on thaivisa.

Edited August 2, 2010 by Deeral

[jayboy]

Andrew Marshall may be conned as a number of correspondents have been

Any chance of establishing which reputable international media outlets have not been conned? Thought not.

[Heng]

You'll get plenty of exceptions but if you pit kids who were raised in complete supportive nuclear families, well nourished since day one of their lives, have always had access to cleaner air, food, water, etc., they are for the most part going to zoom past their counterparts from the other side of the tracks when put in a level playing field educational environment. Stronger, healthier brains and bodies tend to win out.

That's why no one can ever 'level' the playing field anywhere.

[yoshiwara]

Andrew Marshall may be conned as a number of correspondents have been

Any chance of establishing which reputable international media outlets have not been conned? Thought not.

It is a pity that you are unable to argue any of the points made, so I shall summarise again:

The Thaksin gang has has its fundamental modus operandi clear and unambiguous opposition to the presentation of any class economic positions whatsoever except as meaningless mantras.

The reason for this is that Thaksin has built a political regional base which as a requirement of its populist basis must be opposed to any working class interests in order to maintain the support of the regional ruling class interests.

The deal is that Thaksin agrees to finance the movement in return for the delivery of votes and violence.

In the event of success Thaksin will only distribute largesse which can be attributed to him.

There must on no account exist an independent political party, there must on no account be self emancipation, there must on no account be clear class economic demands which can be fought for independent of Thaksin.

Now see if you can argue the points without snipping dear chap and try to do it yourself.

Edited August 2, 2010 by yoshiwara

[JohanV]

Andrew Marshall may be conned as a number of correspondents have been

Any chance of establishing which reputable international media outlets have not been conned? Thought not.

I now have read through the entire Andrew Marshall article and i have to say it seems to me it is an opinion piece

and not a report in any objective manner. Actually, from a journalistic viewpoint it is rather poor as the reasoning

in the article is motivated by only small bites of quotes which he then comments on, with no second- or third-party

opinions quoted at all. He also leaves serious empty holes by avoiding to do any deeper analysis and shows

a level of cultural understanding worthy some American tourist.

It's obvious that he hasn't been here and he has done no personal interviews or research.

I don't see any value in reading it for anyone who wants to understand something about the crisis in Thailand.

It's a propaganda piece, nothing more.

---

As for 'conned' western journalists and the general 'look-at-the-west-tossing' that is going on in almost every

english-language debate here on this subject there are some things worth mentioning:

# Being a western journalist does not mean that you know what you talk about.

Many - especially red shirt supporters - are referring to western media as some kind of 'truth' - triumphantly

saying 'you see?' as soon as they find a western article or newsflash that supports their standpoint.

Being a European I know all too well how totally biased and commercialised/politicised the media is there.

Perhaps there's not much of Thai-style government intervention, but there are countless other reasons the

western media is all but trustworthy.

# Most Thais fail to understand the profound impact WWII + Soviet communism had on the European mindset.

The whole idea of military power in combination with government/politics makes any European immediately

thinking of Hitler and Stalin. For example - the Thai tradition of posing on election posters in uniform with medals

dangling on the chest would be a total political suicide in the west due to this.

So - the western newspapers want to write stories that SELLS, thus they have to appeal to the mindset of the average

European. And, in this context, a story about "the poor fighting for democracy against the military regime"

rings far better than, say "the poor being tricked into fighting to replace one corrupt politician with another".. or such

- for an average European - truly strange stuff that one only can understand by living here in SEA for a longer period of time.

My point is: The western media is not 'conned'. They simply want to angle the news reports in a manner that sells

as much newspapers as possible. Thus, they choose to base the reports about Thailand on what Europeans

generally understand about military, politics and riots, which is Hitler, Stalin, -68 students and Che Guevara, basically.

It's nothing strange with that, but it's of course biased and partly untrue. As most news reports actually tend to be.

To answer jayboy:

As an example of a relatively non-'conned' news source, I would suggest Al-Jazeera, who did an excellent job superimposing

Mr Amsterdam's "Thaksin is only for peace" interview on footage of red shirt violence, just to illustrate that there are two sides

of the story. But they don't have that European WWII ballast as they are arabic, so it makes sense.

Cheers

Edited August 2, 2010 by JohanV

[rstrauss]

People aren't equal (speed, height, weight, intelligence...), how could society possibly be equal?

Ok, make up the tolerance. Some might be double as high or double as intelligent, but there are people making 400 times the money than their lower income counterpart. And they don't really work 400 times more or better.

The system is rigged, in Thailand and in the US. While it doesn't make sense to make everybody equal, it makes sense to have an income distribution like a bell curve. The scandinavian countries make good examples.

[Deeral]

Andrew Marshall may be conned as a number of correspondents have been

Any chance of establishing which reputable international media outlets have not been conned? Thought not.

I now have read through the entire Andrew Marshall article and i have to say it seems to me it is an opinion piece

and not a report in any objective manner. Actually, from a journalistic viewpoint it is rather poor as the reasoning

in the article is motivated by only small bites of quotes which he then comments on, with no second- or third-party

opinions quoted at all. He also leaves serious empty holes by avoiding to do any deeper analysis and shows

a level of cultural understanding worthy some American tourist.

It's obvious that he hasn't been here and he has done no personal interviews or research.

I don't see any value in reading it for anyone who wants to understand something about the crisis in Thailand.

It's a propaganda piece, nothing more.

---

As for 'conned' western journalists and the general 'look-at-the-west-tossing' that is going on in almost every

english-language debate here on this subject there are some things worth mentioning:

# Being a western journalist does not mean that you know what you talk about.

Many - especially red shirt supporters - are referring to western media as some kind of 'truth' - triumphantly

saying 'you see?' as soon as they find a western article or newsflash that supports their standpoint.

Being a European I know all too well how totally biased and commercialised/politicised the media is there.

Perhaps there's not much of Thai-style government intervention, but there are countless other reasons the

western media is all but trustworthy.

# Most Thais fail to understand the profound impact WWII + Soviet communism had on the European mindset.

The whole idea of military power in combination with government/politics makes any European immediately

thinking of Hitler and Stalin. For example - the Thai tradition of posing on election posters in uniform with medals

dangling on the chest would be a total political suicide in the west due to this.

So - the western newspapers want to write stories that SELLS, thus they have to appeal to the mindset of the average

European. And, in this context, a story about "the poor fighting for democracy against the military regime"

rings far better than, say "the poor being tricked into fighting to replace one corrupt politician with another".. or such

- for an average European - truly strange stuff that one only can understand by living here in SEA for a longer period of time.

My point is: The western media is not 'conned'. They simply want to angle the news reports in a manner that sells

as much newspapers as possible. Thus, they choose to base the reports about Thailand on what Europeans

generally understand about military, politics and riots, which is Hitler, Stalin, -68 students and Che Guevara, basically.

It's nothing strange with that, but it's of course biased and partly untrue. As most news reports actually tend to be.

To answer jayboy:

As an example of a relatively non-'conned' news source, I would suggest Al-Jazeera, who did an excellent job superimposing

Mr Amsterdam's "Thaksin is only for peace" interview on footage of red shirt violence, just to illustrate that there are two sides

of the story. But they don't have that European WWII ballast as they are arabic, so it makes sense.

Cheers

actually most of the examples you cite are not cultural, they are pretty much empirical......and you are just subjecting them to your own (paranoiac?) interpretations

Human rights and democratic principles are not cultural issues so much much as bottom line - claiming cultural differences is really a red-herring - 2 plus 2 equals four wherever you are.

[yoshiwara]

Andrew Marshall may be conned as a number of correspondents have been

Any chance of establishing which reputable international media outlets have not been conned? Thought not.

I now have read through the entire Andrew Marshall article and i have to say it seems to me it is an opinion piece

and not a report in any objective manner. Actually, from a journalistic viewpoint it is rather poor as the reasoning

in the article is motivated by only small bites of quotes which he then comments on, with no second- or third-party

opinions quoted at all. He also leaves serious empty holes by avoiding to do any deeper analysis and shows

a level of cultural understanding worthy some American tourist.

It's obvious that he hasn't been here and he has done no personal interviews or research.

I don't see any value in reading it for anyone who wants to understand something about the crisis in Thailand.

It's a propaganda piece, nothing more.

---

As for 'conned' western journalists and the general 'look-at-the-west-tossing' that is going on in almost every

english-language debate here on this subject there are some things worth mentioning:

# Being a western journalist does not mean that you know what you talk about.

Many - especially red shirt supporters - are referring to western media as some kind of 'truth' - triumphantly

saying 'you see?' as soon as they find a western article or newsflash that supports their standpoint.

Being a European I know all too well how totally biased and commercialised/politicised the media is there.

Perhaps there's not much of Thai-style government intervention, but there are countless other reasons the

western media is all but trustworthy.

# Most Thais fail to understand the profound impact WWII + Soviet communism had on the European mindset.

The whole idea of military power in combination with government/politics makes any European immediately

thinking of Hitler and Stalin. For example - the Thai tradition of posing on election posters in uniform with medals

dangling on the chest would be a total political suicide in the west due to this.

So - the western newspapers want to write stories that SELLS, thus they have to appeal to the mindset of the average

European. And, in this context, a story about "the poor fighting for democracy against the military regime"

rings far better than, say "the poor being tricked into fighting to replace one corrupt politician with another".. or such

- for an average European - truly strange stuff that one only can understand by living here in SEA for a longer period of time.

My point is: The western media is not 'conned'. They simply want to angle the news reports in a manner that sells

as much newspapers as possible. Thus, they choose to base the reports about Thailand on what Europeans

generally understand about military, politics and riots, which is Hitler, Stalin, -68 students and Che Guevara, basically.

It's nothing strange with that, but it's of course biased and partly untrue. As most news reports actually tend to be.

To answer jayboy:

As an example of a relatively non-'conned' news source, I would suggest Al-Jazeera, who did an excellent job superimposing

Mr Amsterdam's "Thaksin is only for peace" interview on footage of red shirt violence, just to illustrate that there are two sides

of the story. But they don't have that European WWII ballast as they are arabic, so it makes sense.

Cheers

actually most of the examples you cite are not cultural, they are pretty much empirical......and you are just subjecting them to your own (paranoiac?) interpretations

Human rights and democratic principles are not cultural issues so much much as bottom line - claiming cultural differences is really a red-herring - 2 plus 2 equals four wherever you are.

I think JohanV has some interesting points to make.

However, it is not so much cultural differences as historical and political differences.

....and sheer intellectual laziness of so many journalists.

[JohanV]

...

However, it is not so much cultural differences as historical and political differences.

....and sheer intellectual laziness of so many journalists.

It's definitely a bad idea to be Intellectually lazy if you want to successfully explain the tweaks and turns

of Thai politics to average Europeans, that's very true indeed.

As a side note on the theme of 'conned' journalists, the former Swedish ambassador to Thailand

wrote a very good article ( in Swedish, though, so no links.. ) on this subject titled "Why western media is in love with Thaksin"

and expressed very much the same opinions as I expressed above - the need to make a "sexy" story out of it.

He also rightfully pointed out the fact that when 2500 people were killed in the "War on drugs" here under Thaksin,

the protests by Liverpool FC fans, and the Tak Bai incident - the western press described him as a non-democratic, corrupt populist,

but that they now seem to have conveniently forgotten all follow-ups on that, as it would complicate their selling angle

on the current riots. All so true.

There are many more good articles on it in Sweden at least, where there actually has been a debate on this.

You know, Sweden, the country with the bell-curve and the good equality rating

where of course everyone is paranoid since they question the motives of the riots and the media...

Edited August 3, 2010 by JohanV

[SamritT]

Inequality In The Thai Society is a thing of the past. Since our 5th King remove slave, all Thai have equal rights.

[JohanV]

Inequality In The Thai Society is a thing of the past. Since our 5th King remove slave, all Thai have equal rights.

Except Thai women married to Farangs when buying property, and people who voluntarily enslave themselves, of course

[jayboy]

Inequality In The Thai Society is a thing of the past. Since our 5th King remove slave, all Thai have equal rights.

Excellent point.Very much like our Magna Carta in England in 1215 when English liberties were finally established.All right if the pedants insist it took a few centuries more than that to get it properly sorted and a few arrogant greedy heads had to be lopped off along the way.Not relevant to Thailand however as you correctly point out given that equal rights were finalised with the abolition of slavery.

[Deeral]

"nequality In The Thai Society is a thing of the past. Since our 5th King remove slave, all Thai have equal rights." - it's easy to see why politics in Thailand is such a mess if this is the kind of view held by some of the voters.

[animatic]

To deal with inequality is not an easy thing and as so many have pointed out here involves many different aspects. However, what is needed is an increase in opportunity for the poorer elements of society. Access to better education is a start but also a fairer access to jobs based on ability and not family contact, alumnii group or skin colour is needed and the other one would better opportunity in business which may mean government banks being willing to fund well thought out business plans of those without the necessary collateral in the case of poorer parts of society. Thinking about it banks are often only too willing to fund idiotic business plans of the kids of the rich who have the collateral or guarantees but banks dont alwasy see their money return on the collapse of what were stupid plans ion the first place from those who could afford to return money and infact didnt need to borrow it in the first place.

Anyway rant aside the three ways of opening better opportunity for the poor would be a good idea. However, that addresses the issue of coming generations and their hopes and aspirations and chances but it doesnt address the hopes of those here now. That is harder as many poor people given money are going to handle irt in a manner we see as poor management. Is that however, a problem or even a surprise? If you have never had a nice mobile, motorcylce, nice clothes, nice massage in your life mightnt anyone act similarly and quite honestly who can blame them after all ebnough rich squander money on unneeded and wasteful second and third homes and car collections etc.

It does also seem the social welfare net is going to be in place whatever government is in power which is a good thing provided it is properly funded from adequate taxation and that is planned over the long and not short term.

All in all the rich and the middle income groups in Thailand and other societies have to be willing to take sacrifice to help the poor to avoid social problems that the rich and middle income groups wouldnt like. Of course as soicety as a whole becomes richer and the poor become a smaller segment maybe a lot of the things done to improve the majorities lot need to be revisited. That however, brings us into another area and one that western societies may need to address where so many free or subsidised things are given by government to parts of society that dont need it while the poor see services which they may need get cut. Looking at western societies now maybe means testing would be a way ahead. Even in Thailand there are enough people who dont free medical care or free education. Not an easy area to solve

Edited to add: an interesting observation is that in my daughterrs school every scholarship for anything ends up being taken up by a wealthy person's kid who0 doesnt need it, so the ingrained culture of corruption within bureacracies may mean any attempts at targettign money or opporitunity to the poor will inevitably be undermined. Confronting and dealing with that will be another huge problem.

Couldn't agree more with every sentiment in this post

Well said, I also quite agree with this.

[Deeral]

I agree too - this poster "hammered" writes from the premise is that there is a great inequality in Thai society, outlines some of the processes by which this may be rectified.

the big question is will those who hold power ever give up their advantages? At present the middle-class, military backed govt is procrastinating on elections and clamping down on opposition.....not a recipe for any of the above.

[whybother]

I agree too - this poster "hammered" writes from the premise is that there is a great inequality in Thai society, outlines some of the processes by which this may be rectified.

the big question is will those who hold power ever give up their advantages? At present the middle-class, military backed govt is procrastinating on elections and clamping down on opposition.....not a recipe for any of the above.

Not "procrastinating on elections" ... just not calling them early than scheduled, as demanded by some minority group.

[Deeral]

I find it very sad that a large number of posters on this site (and others) see the political situation in

thailand as having only "bi-polar" facets - this is patently not true.

Elections under a govt that came to power not through a general election but by legal default are always overdue.

Edited August 4, 2010 by Deeral

[chantorn]

Inequality In The Thai Society is a thing of the past. Since our 5th King remove slave, all Thai have equal rights.

Excellent point.Very much like our Magna Carta in England in 1215 when English liberties were finally established.All right if the pedants insist it took a few centuries more than that to get it properly sorted and a few arrogant greedy heads had to be lopped off along the way.Not relevant to Thailand however as you correctly point out given that equal rights were finalised with the abolition of slavery.

It may take a little time, but my country will get it right eventually.

[march]

It may take a little time, but my country will get it right eventually.

Netherlands?

[crazydrummerpauly]

I would say there is another underlying problem that needs to be solved before it is even possible to discuss wealth redistribution...

namely the simple fact that it is utterly useless to spread wealth to people totally unable to handle it.

- before you start ranting - I am NOT saying that anyone is stupid or that the poor are useless.. NO,

I am saying that true wealth is created by ideas, entrepreneurs, and people who can build structures from means of current wealth to assure future wealth. And, as long as people here are simply trying to - at best - become "the perfect employee" instead of creating something new, there isn't much more they can do with the money than go shopping with them.. ..which will only transfer the doe right back to the multinational companies anyway..

The people of Thailand don't need "shopping power", they need a new culture that values individual thinking, new ideas, inventions and audacity.

Only to people possessing those properties has a transfer of wealth any lasting effect.

So, perhaps changing the mindset of the young generation, education etc. prior to redistributing wealth would do the trick ??

Just my five cents..

MMMM, 1) absolutely correct: great wealth landed on untrained individuals usually ends up down the drain - just check the countless stories

of the fate of Lottery Winners who manage to let even millions slip through their fingers. But 2) - my own vision of a meaningful improvement

in the lives of the abject poor only involves a genuinely 'Fair days' pay for a fair day's work' - I think most of them could handle that ok - wouldn't

it be great to give them the chance before pre-judging the outcome ?

[Deeral]

I would say there is another underlying problem that needs to be solved before it is even possible to discuss wealth redistribution...

namely the simple fact that it is utterly useless to spread wealth to people totally unable to handle it.

- before you start ranting - I am NOT saying that anyone is stupid or that the poor are useless.. NO,

I am saying that true wealth is created by ideas, entrepreneurs, and people who can build structures from means of current wealth to assure future wealth. And, as long as people here are simply trying to - at best - become "the perfect employee" instead of creating something new, there isn't much more they can do with the money than go shopping with them.. ..which will only transfer the doe right back to the multinational companies anyway..

The people of Thailand don't need "shopping power", they need a new culture that values individual thinking, new ideas, inventions and audacity.

Only to people possessing those properties has a transfer of wealth any lasting effect.

So, perhaps changing the mindset of the young generation, education etc. prior to redistributing wealth would do the trick ??

Just my five cents..

MMMM, 1) absolutely correct: great wealth landed on untrained individuals usually ends up down the drain - just check the countless stories

of the fate of Lottery Winners who manage to let even millions slip through their fingers. But 2) - my own vision of a meaningful improvement

in the lives of the abject poor only involves a genuinely 'Fair days' pay for a fair day's work' - I think most of them could handle that ok - wouldn't

it be great to give them the chance before pre-judging the outcome ?

So who do you think is "suitably trained" - to deal with "great wealth"?

I assume you've included yourself?

How about the the Pharohs?

The USA?

Nero?

Thaksin?

what precisely are the criteria you set out that qualify someone for great wealth? - was is "great wealth"?

[Deeral]

Wealth does not come from individuals or singular ideas.

You have to have a society first.

It doesn't matter how many good ideas you have if your society locks you up for having them or can't afford to buy them.

[Samuian]

..........edited ......

every scholarship for anything ends up being taken up by a wealthy person's kid who0 doesnt need it, so the ingrained culture of corruption within bureacracies may mean any attempts at targettign money or opporitunity to the poor will inevitably be undermined. Confronting and dealing with that will be another huge problem.

Point made!

[Deeral]

..........edited ......

every scholarship for anything ends up being taken up by a wealthy person's kid who0 doesnt need it, so the ingrained culture of corruption within bureacracies may mean any attempts at targettign money or opporitunity to the poor will inevitably be undermined. Confronting and dealing with that will be another huge problem.

Point made!

So it's the rich who shouldn't have money?

[Heng]

Have run into plenty of 'poor' folks on scholarship stateside. The 'problem' is that a good number stay on stateside and don't return to Thailand until they are fairly well off (and by then, they are basically part of the group that a lot of folks on here think are keeping everyone else 'down') and the ones that do aren't able to 'run with the ball' because the rest of their family aren't in any financial condition to put them in business. A lot of these guys end up as career academics.

[animatic]

..........edited ......

every scholarship for anything ends up being taken up by a wealthy person's kid who0 doesnt need it, so the ingrained culture of corruption within bureacracies may mean any attempts at targettign money or opporitunity to the poor will inevitably be undermined. Confronting and dealing with that will be another huge problem.

Point made!

So it's the rich who shouldn't have money?

A shame the obvious is not clear.

He means that the poor are the ones needing the scholarships desperately,

but too often they go to a moderately rich or bloody rich and connected child,

because his parents know someone, and want the glory of their child winning

the prize or just want the cash because every little bit helps them rise in the kow tow lifestyle..

[wayfarer108]

Andrew Marshall may be conned as a number of correspondents have been

Any chance of establishing which reputable international media outlets have not been conned? Thought not.

I now have read through the entire Andrew Marshall article and i have to say it seems to me it is an opinion piece

and not a report in any objective manner. Actually, from a journalistic viewpoint it is rather poor as the reasoning

in the article is motivated by only small bites of quotes which he then comments on, with no second- or third-party

opinions quoted at all. He also leaves serious empty holes by avoiding to do any deeper analysis and shows

a level of cultural understanding worthy some American tourist.

It's obvious that he hasn't been here and he has done no personal interviews or research.

I don't see any value in reading it for anyone who wants to understand something about the crisis in Thailand.

It's a propaganda piece, nothing more.

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As for 'conned' western journalists and the general 'look-at-the-west-tossing' that is going on in almost every

english-language debate here on this subject there are some things worth mentioning:

# Being a western journalist does not mean that you know what you talk about.

Many - especially red shirt supporters - are referring to western media as some kind of 'truth' - triumphantly

saying 'you see?' as soon as they find a western article or newsflash that supports their standpoint.

Being a European I know all too well how totally biased and commercialised/politicised the media is there.

Perhaps there's not much of Thai-style government intervention, but there are countless other reasons the

western media is all but trustworthy.

# Most Thais fail to understand the profound impact WWII + Soviet communism had on the European mindset.

The whole idea of military power in combination with government/politics makes any European immediately

thinking of Hitler and Stalin. For example - the Thai tradition of posing on election posters in uniform with medals

dangling on the chest would be a total political suicide in the west due to this.

So - the western newspapers want to write stories that SELLS, thus they have to appeal to the mindset of the average

European. And, in this context, a story about "the poor fighting for democracy against the military regime"

rings far better than, say "the poor being tricked into fighting to replace one corrupt politician with another".. or such

- for an average European - truly strange stuff that one only can understand by living here in SEA for a longer period of time.

My point is: The western media is not 'conned'. They simply want to angle the news reports in a manner that sells

as much newspapers as possible. Thus, they choose to base the reports about Thailand on what Europeans

generally understand about military, politics and riots, which is Hitler, Stalin, -68 students and Che Guevara, basically.

It's nothing strange with that, but it's of course biased and partly untrue. As most news reports actually tend to be.

To answer jayboy:

As an example of a relatively non-'conned' news source, I would suggest Al-Jazeera, who did an excellent job superimposing

Mr Amsterdam's "Thaksin is only for peace" interview on footage of red shirt violence, just to illustrate that there are two sides

of the story. But they don't have that European WWII ballast as they are arabic, so it makes sense.

Cheers

Well argued.

I also just read the Andrew Marshall piece. His bias is steep, especially in this statement:

The clumsy effort to dismiss Thailand’s poor as plodding idiots was not an isolated insult – it is at the heart of the philosophy of supporters of the current government led by Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva.

How on earth did he come to that conclusion? Run a poll? Just grabbed it out of thin air, more likely.

Here in Bangkok it's widely known that Marshall is Red. Everyone's free to take sides, but he really should be more explicit about it instead of pretending to be objective.

But I do have to agree with Marshall that the photo is amusing, and the placard is insulting both to Thaksin supporters and to whomever wrote the placard. There is plenty of idiocy to go around on all sides.